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Some people do prefer the firmer ride of the Accord over the Camry, I know because I am one of them.
The first day i drove it, I was like "I'm trading the GS for one of these!!! It's great!!!" After the third day I was "Gimme back my GS, this car'll make OPEC rich!!!"
Mazda 6 was a big disappointment--had superb handling, brakes, and seating position, but the 4 speed automatic transmission was a mess--poorly matched to the 4 cyl. engine and not smooth when on hills (too much clunky hunting between 2nd and 3rd gears). Also, there was an annoying lag on initial acceleration--not as responsive as it should have been.
Camry had an excellent engine and transmission, but ride and brake pedal feel were too mushy. A competent but boring car.
Didn't drive the Altima because its interior looked like the contents of a vacuum cleaner bag.
VW's service record isn't good, and I think they're overpriced, so didn't bother testing the Passat which I believe is close to a complete model change within a year--current Passat will soon be passé.
The Accord was just right--tight ride and superbly matched 4 cyl. engine and 5 speed AT. Also, I like buing a car in its second year--likely to have fewer bugs. The '04 Accord is a great car......Richard
LOL!!
The accelerative advantage of the Accord and Altima against the Camry will be heavily mitigated for 2005, when the Camrys 3.3L V6 is availble in all trim lines, not just the SE. (This engine trumps the Accord's engine by a full 28 foot pounds of twist.) In terms of performance, I havent seen a road test yet where the Accord EX V6 can out-brake similar Altimas and Camrys, and in some cases, lane change and adhesion scores for the Camry are better as well. So its not a wash across the board, as you would seem to indicate.
This is heavily bordering on a post that should be in the comparisons thread, and I dont (and cant) get in any more trouble, so I'm going to stop.
~alpha
~alpha
Under different circumstances, things can be much different. For example, in the March R&T coupe comparison, braking distances between the Accord and Solara differed by 5 feet or less.
No car is perfect, and braking is not the Accord's greatest strength. But if you look at the car as a whole, rather than putting one area of choice under a microscope, my point remains. After all, when Motor Trend's conclusion about the Accord is "It's hard to imagine how a midpriced four-door could get any better", that pretty much says it all. And it's my point exactly.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0402_family/index.h- - - - - tml
Talking V6 power is pointless when 80% of these cars sold are equipped with the 4 cylinder. It's safe to say that all 3 cars with the V6 will be comparable and the Altima's 250HP will not be enough to put a significant dent in Accord sales. As for the 4 cylinders the Accord's 4 cylinder/5-speed auto combo is arguably the best in this class.
Like talon said, the Accord has never really excelled in any one category but it's top-of-the-class performance in all categories make it a favorite among automotive magazines. The Accord has been on C&D's top 10 list more than any other car .. that says something.
"Stealing sales" is almost always going to be speculative because there's no way you can prove that the person would have bought something different. But certainly there is plenty of evidence to indicate that it is a reasonable hypothesis. There are a lot of competitive vehicles in this segmentnow that can and do manage to stack up against the Accord very well. Add to that some questionable styling, some reports of quality problems, and the lack of incentives, and you end up with an Accord that is not the hot commodity it once was.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
jeffrey15> Dealer incentive on Accords right
jeffrey15> now. Anyone have any details?
If there are any Factory To Dealer incentives on the Accord they are not showing up on the major Internet Auto sites at this time including Edmunds: http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?tid=edmunds.n.- optionsresults.ntmv.2.6.Honda*&styleid=100336774&popuppag- e=off
At the end of last month (March 15 to 31) they were offering $400 Factory To Dealer "marketing support." There are still financing incentives available.
1) I agree that the Accord is the most well rounded vehicle in the class, and represents a great value. Accord folks need not get defensive. Its just a discussion here.
2) "Both the Altima and Camry use customer rebates in addition to any dealer cash to move vehicles". The Altima used rebates ONLY to move the last two months of inventory of 2004s. There are NO rebates or financing incentives currently available on Altimas. In my area, the Camry offers a $1000 rebate OR low financing rates (but not ZERO).
3) "In Atlanta, if you check the Sunday paper you will see dealer upon dealer advertising several Camry LE's for $15,900-$16,400 which is thousands off of invoice so there is alot of money on these somewhere." I can find ads like that, which generate floor traffic primarily, for practically any car, including Accord LXs, especially with the recent addition of factory to dealer cash (much as was done with the Civic earlier this year).
4) "As for the 4 cylinders the Accord's 4 cylinder/5-speed auto combo is arguably the best in this class." I agree. Of note, though, is the 2005 Camry's upcoming 4 cylinder/5 speed auto (Camry's engine is smoother and quieter than the Accords, especially at idle, though the Accords feels a bit stronger), as well as the new Subaru Legacy.
5) "Yeah... it says the C&D is in love with anything turned out by Honda, always has been, always will be. The car itself makes very little difference." This statement is a bit dramatic. The Accord is an excellent car. However, I think 2005 might see the Accord fall off the list.
My .02
~alpha
The current Accord has been at the top of comparisons from Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, Motor Trend (3 times!), Road and Track and Edmunds. So it isn't just Car and Driver that recognizes the Accord's excellence. And the suggestion that the Accord got its place on C&D's 10 Best list strictly because of a pro-Honda bias, and that the car isn't good enough to truly deserve it, has little merit, as made evident by these comparison results. The car itself does make a lot of difference, and the Accord's track record of winning comparisons is ample evidence of the quality of the car's design. It's considered by many experts to be the most reliable and consistent benchmark for midsized car designs, and for good reason.
And as far as the "always has been, always will be" part of your post, C&D was less than impressed with the current Civic, and they've been extremely critical of the Acura TL, mostly for being a FWD design in a class dominated by RWD. So they don't automatically fall in love with anything designed by Honda or Acura.
Well, after doing my test drives of Mazda 6 and Camry and Honda Accord, it was clear to me why the Accord is so popular--it's better.
So I bought the Accord EX-L 4 cyl AT which has the standard side, curtain airbags (one of the safest cars one can own) and everything else I wanted plus other stuff included that I really didn't need but now enjoy anyway.
The Accord EX-L 4 cyl. is an economy car at the gas pump and a near-luxury car on the road. I don't think I could own a better car for the price........Richard
i don't sense any torque steer at all in my Accord.
and while we are talking tires, on my EX V6, i have 16"s from the factory, on factory alloys. is it possible to go one size WIDER on these wheels?
However, because the wider size - calling for a 7" rim width - will be mounted on the factory 6" rim, there would be probable compromises on handling, wear & tear and safety.
Since tire sidewall is best maintaining a perpendicular angle with the road, a wide tire on a narrow rim (and vice-versa) will change this angle with some adverse effect.
Imagine a bi-folded paper sheet standing upright while held straight, but buckling when held at an angle. Tire sidewall would behave similarly; in prolonged interstate driving, the increased tire shell flexing and resultant heat build-up softens the rubber compound, weakening the sidewall. An emergency maneuver in that state will not be as safe.
The remaining option is 215x60x16 (6.5" bead width) - slightly taller to understate the odometer somewhat (increasing fuel economy a bit as a bonus). Slightly softer ride with less cornering firmness are other effects.
Suggest reading tirerack.com's consumer feedback in deciding brand. Hope this helps.
the camry i4 may be quieter at idle but being smoother is very debatable. i feel like i'm beating a dead horse when accelerating an i4 camry at high rpms.
just doing a friendly rebuttal here, you're fairly reasonable in your arguments. don't forget that the accord will also undergo mid-design improvements too.
if you use premium fuel you're able to match the altima's horsepower. and more importantly, the smoothness/refinement from the accord v6 is superior to the altima v6.
here's a reminder from edmund's road test:
"Perhaps the most puzzling aspect of the Accord's 240-horsepower V6 is how the engine masks its performance capabilities. Acceleration testing at our closed-course facility showed that the car had strong off-the-line power followed by consistent pull all the way up to its 6,500 rpm shift points (redline is 6,800 rpm). There was little of the high-end rush we've come to expect from Honda's variable valve timing equipped engines. Upshifts from the five-speed automatic were consistently crisp, and the overall sensation was one of highly refined and wholly adequate performance. Then we checked the numbers and saw that it was doing zero to 60 mph in seven seconds flat.
For comparison's sake we brought along our long-term Nissan Altima SE, equipped with that model's 240-horsepower 3.5-liter V6 and a four-speed automatic, and ran it only moments after testing the Accord (meaning essentially identical testing conditions). While the Nissan felt far quicker than the Accord due to increased engine roar and vibration, we could only manage a 6.8-second 0-to-60-mph time. It would appear that, while the new Accord isn't setting the performance pace in the midsize sedan category, it's certainly keeping up with the front-runners"
true, the accord lacks the torque of the altima and therefore the altima accelerates better in certain driving conditions. i'll give it that. but i love the above quote.
"exactly what car is going to knock the accord off the hill in 05? the camry? please. the legacy? it'll have to be the most improved subaru in history."
Well, I guess time will tell... its a bit arrogant to think that the Accord will be on top forever. The Accord will indeed have mid cycle freshening... but for the 2006 MY, correct? We're talking about 2005 here, and the Altima, Camry, and Legacy will have made significant strides. The Accord wasnt a run-away victor in Edmunds.com most recent midsize comparo, and MT's January issue was a rather odd mix of competitors, and only 3 at that.
~alpha
It's extremely pessimistic to think that a mid model refresh of the competition will knock it off the top. The Legacy will still have that industrial sounding flat four which will always be its achilles heel. And no matter how you mitigate the fact the Accord won the comparos it still won. Not to mention the first comparo all magazines had ALL significant competition and the Accord STILL won.
By the way the Accord has been on the list for 18 out of 21 year. That's enough to justify a bit of arrogance.
Committment to safety in side curtains on all Accord models next year, ABS on all models next year, exemplary crash tests, front of the pack power, class leading refinement, standard setting ergonomics, and many other attributes will keep the Accord at the top. No interior refresh can compete with that.
to say the altima has made (from 04 to 05) and the camry will make significant strides is a bit of an overstatement.
as for the legacy, time will tell but its history strongly suggests otherwise. i think the galant could of been such a nicer car if mitsubishi wasn't in such a financial mess. will this happen to subaru too.
the car that should be on the accord's radar is the redesigned passat coming out next year.
And what significant strides can the Camry make in the next couple of years? It will not be redesigned until 2007, only one year ahead of the Accord.
Aside from it winning comparison tests in all the major publications against many different competitors, it is the #2 top seller (maybe the #1 without fleet sales). Also, there are a few things that reviews dont cover, such as longevity (how many Malibus, Passats & Altima's are running perfectly past 150K and 200K miles?), low maintenance costs (10K mile oil changes, parts not imported from Germany on a 4-week wait period, etc), and other factors that might sway buyers.
I do see the Legacy as improved competition for the Accord in 2005, but along the lines of the Mazda 6, it will promote a different, sportier message. The Passat will make for a good comparo, but only if Volkswagen controls its quality problems and doesnt price it out of range.
Rememeber too, that the Camry and Altima only feature modest upgrades for 2005, nothing earth shaking, and, back in 2002, a previous generation still beat the new Camry and Altima as all around best family sedan.
I am allowed to have my opinion that the Altima has made strides for 2005, the Legacy will be a much improved competitor for 2005, and that improvements to the Camry- VSC available on all models, a few added hp for the 4s as well as a 5 speed auto, Optitron instrumentation, revised IP, 17 inch wheels on XLE and SE V6s, the 3.3L V6 (and 3.5L V6 for 2006) etc (and the obligatory cosmetic changes)... may give the Accord a run for its money.
The Accord tops Car and Driver's family sedan choice, as it should. But it does not top the more conservative Consumer Reports list on the V6 front, only the 4s (it is outpointed by both the old 192hp Camry V6 as well as Passat).
My point is that the Accord is not as far out in front as some would believe, and if Honda doesnt pay attention to the competition, sales could continue to slip, as they have in the past several months.
(Note: Personally, I applaud Honda's committment to safety, but- you still have to wait until 2005 MY if you want an LX with side curtains, and I'm not that impressed by the Accords "Marginal" structure rating in the two IIHS side impacts.)
~alpha
Anyway, as Pat would say, let's stop discussing each other, and get back to discussing the cars.
Keep in mind that as much as you have the right to your opinion that the updated Altima, the new Legacy and the upcoming Camry updates will be a challenge to the Accord, others have just as much of a right to think that the Accord will do just fine. But I agree that Honda must continue to strive to stay among the leaders.
Your comment about not being impressed with the Accord's "Marginal" structure rating is interesting. While having a strong structure is certainly laudable, even the Camry with its "Acceptable" structure required side curtain airbags to get a "Good" rating for side impacts, a score that a comparably equipped Accord was able to match. Even the only car that got a "Good" rating for the structure rating still only earned a "Poor" overall for side protection.
So at least based on the IIHS tests, it seems that side curtain airbags are the only option that will allow you to pass the test, and even that isn't a guarantee of a top rating, as evidenced by the Malibu's results. And it seems like the structure rating is pretty much academic in this case, since even a "Good" structure rating yielded a "Poor" overall result. It's just another measurement that has little relevance to the real world.
After all, it's a phyrric victory to be able to say "Well, I didn't survive the side impact crash in my Galant, but what the heck, my safety cage structure is good."
2005 is the year we are discussing here so the point is still valid.
The 3.3 Toyota engine still lags behind the 3.0 Accord. And if needed, the Accord can have the 3.2 out of the TL and detune it down to 250 hp.
The Altima will still not top the Accord. It may be improved, but it's fighting the stigma of the first itereation of the platform. C/D's not gonna drop the Accord for the Altima. I'll bet a significant amount of money on that.
As someone said before, the Accord is due for a refresh too. And you never know what Honda is planning until it hits the lots(how do they do that). They may bring out the next version with parts from the JDM Aspire. That would ne nyce.
Again, if the competiton comes out with something "bigger and better", Honda will answer the challenge. Even if the Altima gets a better tranny, it's already been deemed the torque steer champ of the segment. More torque multiplication is just what the doctor ordered.
The Camry's more relaxed engine suits it just as the Accord's engine suits those who drive them.
Additionally, engine output is only one aspect of these cars. The Accord is tops in the segment for being all-around competent.
as long as people continue their appetite for SUVs, then yes, accord sales will indeed continue to slide along with corresponding increased sales of their SUV offerings.
chevy impala sales are doing really well as of late. must be because cheverlet has made significant improvements to this car and not because they're offering huge financial incentives. NOT.
by the way the camry already gives the accord a run for its money. no one is saying the accord is a quantum leap ahead of the camry.
still haven't figured why consumer reports would give the camry the edge in V6 configuration. if anything, the accord should increase the gap when comparing V6 to V6. then again they rate the matrix higher than the CRV.
i think no matter your bias you'll be scratching your head with how they rank some of the cars within a class.
1) the dealers persian bazzar mentality (were downright rude),
2) Honda's reluctance to help if you get a lemon (the latter came from legal counsel I had for a lemon auto).
3). No hatchback (latter is very useful)
I disagree with this based on personal experience with a 98 Civic we purchased new. It had some slight paint issues in the rear quarter panel that we did not notice until the car was 3 months old with 5700 miles. Honda gave us cash and a 99 Accord for dealer cost. They didn't have to do this because there was nothing mechanically wrong with the car. But they did and we have been loyal since.
If you want to see another manufacturer's tenacious fight to avoid replacing a lemon, check this out:
"More than two years after Adele Garcia tried unloading her ailing 2001 Mazda Tribute under Wisconsin's lemon law, she's still driving it.
Garcia remains behind the wheel of the car with a troubled transmission primarily because of two words. When she told Mazda in a letter that she was invoking the state's lemon law to replace her Tribute because of persistent problems, according to court records, Garcia failed to spell out that she wanted to "transfer title" of the car."
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/feb04/204428.asp
So Mazda is so steadfast in its resolve to NOT help this woman that it's using a loophole regarding legal jargon in her paperwork as the reason to refuse her claim.
If you're really worried about this point, clearly you should avoid buying a Mazda at all costs. Clearly they're willing to "zoom zoom" right into court to avoid taking responsibility for a poorly designed and/or manufactured car.
Honda
Toyota
VW (wildcard)
Mazda
Nissan
Subaru
Kia
Hyundai
Suzuki
Ford
GM
Chrysler
in the end, it is Accord and Camry at the top. i don't see that changing. i don't think Americans can wrap their heads around a car that is better (even if it really is) than an Accord or Camry. luckily, they are both great cars. one is for drivers, one is for commuters.
Andy71- The Accord outsells the Camry on private registrations, period. The Camry sees 11 or 12% fleet sales, and the Accord only about 4%.
People here are talking about an Accord refresh.. hasnt the car only been out for two model years? Would the refresh not be for the fourth model year, meaning in the Fall of 2005, if we are to base the cycle on the 98-2002 generation?
alpha
These are your perceptions, and you are welcome to them, but don't confuse your perceptions with the realities of the midsize marketplace, which is the most competitive in the auto industry.
Contrary to your opinion, indications from auto professionals from their posts on other boards here are that many people are shopping the MZ6 and Altima against the Accord.
I, in fact, did this myself over the holidays and came to the conclusion that, although the Accord was probably the best all-around vehicle in this class, it also suffered from a very pedestrian rear styling that I wasn't able to overlook when it was time to pull the trigger.
Just as negotiations got serious, I excused myself from the sales desk, went back out in the parking lot to look at the car I was about to buy, and decided not to go through with it.
If I were to guess, I think that might be why the Accord is losing a few sales and selling below invoice right now. It is a slam dunk easy decision to buy for those who don't care what cars look like, and many others think the body styling is attractive. Still others might buy it because it is so good that they just overlook the styling. I haven't been able to get there yet.
And, based on my experience while owning a Nissan Maxima for 12 years, and on the experience of other Nissan owners among my family and friends, I can state that Nissan's reliability is outstanding. In fact, the Maxima was the most reliable V6 sedan in the Consumer Reports survey in its 2003 auto edition over, among others, the Accord.
Also, to say that the current Altima, which is excellent, is one step above the Taurus is an extremely high compliment of the Taurus. As for the theory of neverending Accord/Camry domination at the top of the sale charts, perhaps you are not old enough to remember that a couple of decades ago, the Olds Cutlass sold a million copies a year. Today there is no Cutlass, and soon there will be no Olds.
By the way though..I agree that Nissan has great reliability. But they just seem to have no idea what materials to use in the interior of a car. From the Altima to the Titan to the G35.. The look is there but so is the cheap feeling, shiny plastic.