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Mazda MPV: Problems & Solutions

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Comments

  • mazda_guymazda_guy Member Posts: 183
    The whole thing is not that simple and that is why engineers are still working on that perfect tire. Since the tire is in the motion we can forget about the static friction. The formula for the force of kinetic friction Fk is Fk=Uk*Fn where Uk is coefficient of kinetic friction and Fn is the force that tire exerts on the surface (weight of the car applied to the tire). The higher the Fk the lower tendency to hydroplaning. Approximate Uk for rubber on dry concrete is 0.7 and on wet concrete is 0.5. Since we are talking about hydroplaning Uk will be close to zero (Uk for steel on steel lubricated is about 0.09). Now notice there is no area of surface involved in calculation of Fk so how wide or narrow the tire it does not matter. To throw another monkey wrench in our speculation we have to decide what is happening during hydroplaning. We know that when the tire rotates on a dry surface we are dealing with Rolling Friction. However I am not sure if in fact tire is rotating or sliding during hydroplaning. The most likely is a mix of both, sometimes it rotates sometimes slides. Nevertheless, the portion of the tire in contact with the surface is flat not circular and in fact that portion of the wheel that is deformed will tend to slide. Frictional force will be changing constantly because the deformation of the surfaces will be changing. The more deformation the rougher surface contact the higher frictional force. Now is all clear as Florida mud :-).

    MB
  • evaddaveevaddave Member Posts: 156
    I don't think friction is the issue here. The friction you describe is a lateral, or horizontal friction that the tire needs in order to do its job. If there was no friction between the tire and road surface, the car wouldn't be able to move, steer, etc. There is, of course, less friction on a wet road, and that's why tires spin more on wet roads. But hydroplaning isn't tires that are losing grip and spinning. Hydroplaning is the car "riding up" on the puddle of water. The tires lose contact with the road entirely, which reduces the coefficient of friction to nearly 0, and erases nearly all of the traction.

    For an analogy, consider water skis. (okay, so it's really a counter-analogy since water skis are *designed* to hydroplane, and tires are just the opposite, but bear with me here.) When a water skier is awaiting "take-off," the skis are slicing through the water just fine--the skier has to work to keep the tips above water. As the boat starts to go and speeds up, it gets easier and easier for the skier to keep the skis above water, and once the skier is up, it takes almost no effort to keep the hydroplaning effect. Now, that really demonstrated the effect of *speed* on hydroplaning, but let's go one more step. The typical water skis are two narrow, flat sticks with one boot in each ski. Slalom skis, on the other hand, are designed to have both feet in one ski, and they are wider than the normal skis. Why? Because at low speeds, the skier needs the extra width to keep hydroplaning.

    Are we having fun yet? I swear I haven't used my brain this much since college. :)

    -Dave
  • mls64mls64 Member Posts: 9
    I took our 2000 ES (37k miles) to the dealer today for parts of the 30k service. Had the transmission flushed/filled, as well as the cooling system. Also badly needed a front end alignment (left was at -1 deg camber, and right was at -1.9!). I wanted to have the brake fluid flushed and filled, but they said they didn't have the equipment to do it. They also couldn't replace the cabin air filter (no part in stock). Is there anything special about flushing the brake fluid on this car? I've done this to numerous cars in the past, including those w/ABS and the only thing required was a pump and a specific sequence for draining. Anyone done this?

    Mike
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    some extra money from your wallet 8^) What's this world coming to?!?!

    I'm not a Mazda tech, but I seem to have the equipment in my garage to flush my brakes. A couple of quarts of brake fluid, some flare or box end wrenches to turn bleeder screws, a special $2.99 brake bleeder cup with two fittings, and a vacuum pump.

    Wonder why they didn't want to take your $75 or so per hour plus fluid, enviromental bunny protection charges and so forth?

    Hmmm

    TB
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    I think we are getting closer.

    I do believe the tire is still rotating, but full blown hydroplaning has the entire tire (rotating or not) floating on the water.

    I was thinking along the same lines as the evaddave, like water skis.

    So if hydroplaning is the water actually supporting the weight of the vehicle on then, to me at least, it makes sense that a wider tire would begin to hydroplane sooner (at lower speed) than a narrow tire.

    (I'm in stream of consiousness mode here 8^) )

    I'm not sure I can go back to the skis here because there is too much changing. One ski versus two, the weight on each ski is different. And we don't know the surface area of the ski.

    But what we do know, is slow down in the rain 8^)

    TB
  • mls64mls64 Member Posts: 9
    Tboner,

    That's exactly what I thought. I, too, have the tools. Just need to buy a bottle of ATE Racing Blue brake fluid and pump the old stuff out. Does anyone know the "pattern" for bleeding?
    Rears first, obviously, but more specifics would be helpful.

    Thanks,
    Mike
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    I haven't heard this must discussion about physics since high school! Don't know how I ever made it throught that class ... "Mr. Carter are you sleeping again?" - "No sir, I was trying to determine the coefficient of drag of my eyelids against my eyes"!


    Hydroplaning? Just get a set of X-Ones for your MPV and plow right on thru the puddles! BTW, I'm still looking for a nice 16" alloy set for the van. When I find them, I'm going to take the almost new 15" X-Ones off the van and put them on my Accord. Yes, they will be wider than the current MXV4+ on the Accord (205 vs. 195), but the tread patterns between the two tires are drastically different. If you've never seen their tread pattern before, check them out X-Ones


    I'll have to admit though that I've given a more-than-cursory glance at the Dunlop SP Sport A2


    Welcome back Prof. Tboner! Trying to make up for lost time, er, posts? ...hehe. Could you share your Dunlop experiences again with me? I'd appreciate it!

  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    SP5000's, all asymetrical. The MPV and the Buick both wear the 225/55-16 size, and I've all but destroyed a set of 205/55-16's on the SVT Contour.

    I really like Dunlop as a budget minded performance tire. The only really bad experience I've had was I thought the SP4000's wore out too quickly.

    It looks like the Buick will get about 30K enthusiastic miles on them. I suspect I can get 25K or so on the van.

    Michelin makes a good tire as well. Very consistent quality. I have the Sears equivalent of the RainForce® MX4, the Weatherwise on the Buick during the winter.

    They are good enough for winters here, but go to where they really get snow, and you'ld probably suffer. And since Sears is very convenient to my home, and those rotations are not so painful while I cruise the mall ...

    Going back to Dunlops, I've had the D60's on other cars in the past and felt they were a good tire.

    Personally, between the X-One and the A2, I'd pick the Dunlop A2's because the traction and temp ratings are more favorable. I've never been a fan of tires that can go 100K miles.

    TB
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    Yup, that's why I'm looking at the 'Lops. Better priced than the Mich's, H-rated vs. T-rated, and more of a performance tire. Their hydro-resistance rating is equally as high according to Tire Rack. That is one of my predominant factors in choosing tires, but I also want the other good stuff too. Darn, I'm hard to please! Oh yeah, "the look", my d/w is a very VERBAL person - she learned years ago that I ignore the look ;-(
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Here's my $0.02.

    Whether hydroplaning will occur depends both on the ability of the tire to push water out of the way (related to contact pressure in turn related to vehicle weight and tire size) and the time over which water can be pushed out of the way (related to tire size).

    Given equal "contact pressure," I think a larger tire would hydroplane more easily than a smaller tire since the water would have to be moved further to clear the contact area - only if the two tires had no tread! (I.e., the water must be pushed the full width of the tire in order to avoid hydroplaning.)

    But given that we're usually dealing with intact tread on good tires, the situation changes. Water only has to be moved a distance equal to the separation of the grooves so it's not obvious, to me at least, that one size has any intrinsic advantage over the other.

    The key here is "equal pressure." Generally, you put larger tires on heavier vehicles to support the greater weight and the contact pressures turn out to be roughly the same. Also, tread design matters.

    My point? The physics isn't all that simple!

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    For those who haven't met Tidester over in SUVs or A&A, he's been known to teach a few math classes now and then. He likes this sort of stuff! (notice that you didn't see me hopping in this thread?).

    Thanks, partner!

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • javadocjavadoc Member Posts: 1,167
    Ruh-roh, big guns brought in to discuss hydroplaning, lol. Good to see you Tidester!

    Mls64, my general rule of thumb when bleeding brakes is to start with the corner farthest from the reservior, so that'd usually means the right rear, then left rear, right front, then left front.

    /j
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    I imagine that ones that are worn out and soft would tend to give way more easily to the water's upward pressure and hydro, no?
  • alexv1nalexv1n Member Posts: 248
    It is quite simple to understand why a car can hydroplane. When tires cut through water, before they come in contact with pavement, they have to force the water off the track. The actual amount of water thrown away and the speed at which it is pushed determines the force that is put on it (and as a result, the wheel feels the same amount of force back). To determine the mass of water that is pumped out of wheel's path, we need to get the puddle depth, tire width and track length, multiply all those and multiply by the density of water. For example, 215 mm wide tire going through 10 mm deep and 2 meter long puddle would need to cut through about 4.3 kg of water. A car traveling at about 100 km/h would cross that puddle in about 0.07 second. Given that the car has 4 tires, it means that it will throw away about 240 kg of water per second. Of course, we don't know the speed at which the water comes from under the tire. But assuming, that 205 mm tire and 225 mm tire throw away water at the same speed, it means that 225 mm tire will throw away about 10% more water because it is wider. As a result, wider tire will get more resistance from water and starts to hydroplane sooner.

    Of course, none of the above takes into consideration tread pattern, actual water paths and speeds, etc. Just a general tendency...

    I hope it makes sense.
  • danandkatdanandkat Member Posts: 67
    Nobody has brought up that with regard to hydroplaning you need to consider the square root of the vector of the hypotenuse of the rotational angle. As the rotational velocity approaches the speed of light, time (and the water that is being shoved aside) move more slowly. So, the faster you go the more likely you are to hydroplane, and cause a tear in the time-space continuum. Once a rip has been made in the time-space continuum, hydroplaning approaches certainty but will never quite attain certainty. Wormholes can also affect hydroplaning and be instrumental in mending the tear in the time-space continuum. ;<). danandkat
  • alexv1nalexv1n Member Posts: 248
    You forgot to mention that space also start to curve at those rates of speeds and the car can be steered more easily around potholes and steep corners... ;-)
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    Around here, it is the number of nails in your tires that determine hydroplaning. Nails serve to make for a more 3 dimensional tread, so the contact patch is actually "stuck" on the pavement at the moment the nail contacts the asphalt.

    Of course, that only happens on the first 4 revolutions, so the nail factor loses its power quickly. Now screws, that is a different matter, they hang in there for at least 20 revolutions before they get shoved in too deep.

    Hope this clarifies the confusion.
  • mls64mls64 Member Posts: 9
    Was wondering if any of the suspension upgrades from the 2002 model can be fitted to the 2000 model? As far as I've read, changes are: revised angle of front struts, stiffer rear shocks, stiffer bushings throughout, and (maybe) stiffer rear anti-roll bar. Sure would be nice to incorporate some of these on my 2000 ES. And those 17" wheels sure would help (but would the speedo need to be recalibrated?).

    Mike
  • mls64mls64 Member Posts: 9
    I, too, have had numerous Dunlops, SP4000s, SP5000s (awesome tire, and a bargain) on numerous cars (Alfa Romeo Milano, Volvo 850, Volvo 940 Turbo), and now on our MPV ES the new(er) SP Sport A2. Really like the handling, the look, rim protection, etc. The tires are not high-mileage, but they are grippy tires, even in wet. My experience is that high-mileage tires trade off performance both dry and particularly wet, for longevity. That is a trade that I won't make. I can almost buy two sets of Dunlops (not quite) for one set of Michelins, and have better performance for the total 60-70k miles.

    Mike
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    So are the '02 MPVs coming w/ Sp Sport A2 as the OEM tire? I'm not sure how Michelin does it with the X-One - they seem to defy the standard line of reasoning that high-mileage tires make trade offs in the performance category. I have yet to feel them hydro on the van, even at highway speeds.
  • excalibur1993excalibur1993 Member Posts: 3
    From Excalibur:

    Update on my 2002 ES breakdown (still on its first tank of gas).

    Basically, the dealer found a loose wiring harness from the factory. Pushed it back into the "brains" and van ran fine. There is a much more detailed account of my full service events at the YAHOO forum group discussing the rental, tow, calls, etc.

    thanks,

    Excalibur
  • mls64mls64 Member Posts: 9
    beachnut,

    No, I replaced the OEM SP4000s when they wore out with the SP Sport A2s. Huge difference, and a great upgrade. What size X-Ones do you have on your MPV?

    Mike
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    I guess if I had scrolled up and read your brake post more closely, I would've known that you had a 2000, but my head was still spinning from that physics lesson! The X-Ones on my MPV are 205/65-15. I put them on a few months ago because the oem Yoko's were shot. We bought the van last Sept. It was a rental w/ 13K miles. The tires had never been rotated, so I was at least looking at replacing two.

    If I can't find some 16" alloys for the MPV soon, I'll just leave them on the van. The Mich MXV4+ on my Accord only have a few thousand miles left, so any way you slice it, I'm going to need some new tires before long. Probably the only thing that is keeping me from getting the Dunlops for the Honda is the question in my mind regarding their rain performance. I've had some pretty vivid experiences in the past driving on FL highways during 2-4 inch/hour downpours, so an excellent rain tire is important to me.
  • kczmudzinkczmudzin Member Posts: 39
    It's very difficult to place the gear lever between D and 3 if you try to do it on purpose. However, every time the O/D OFF light was flashing the lever was in that position. It happened more to my wife than to me. It doesn't happen any more as we have adjusted the way we shifted into D.
  • mazda_guymazda_guy Member Posts: 183
    Mike, what size of Sport A2 did you put on? Last time I checked they didn't have original 17" size for MPV.

    I agree with you 100% that those high (60k - 80k) tires give up performance to tread life. I say more than that. Rubber ages and with time changes gripping characteristics. Therefore, if you buy 60k tires and you make 10k a year they are worthless before they are even worn out.

    MB
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    But let me just clarify what I learned.

    Hydro-planing occurs on bleeding brakes when the shift lever is stuck between 3 and D with loose harnesses.

    Did I miss anything?
  • javadocjavadoc Member Posts: 1,167
    Yeah, that's the Cliff's Notes version Malt.

    /j
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    I just picked up braided lines.

    Oops, wrong car.

    BTW, I do know how to spell brakes. But I can make spelling mistakes with the best of them.

    TB
  • kczmudzinkczmudzin Member Posts: 39
    Could you point me to your post on Yahoo!? Or, could you tell more about which harness was loose? Although the symptoms are similar in your and my cases, it is possible that two or more different problems can cause them. I'd like to mention your case to the dealer next time I go for an oil change.
  • alexv1nalexv1n Member Posts: 248
    The post excalibur1993 mentioned is here:


    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpv2000/message/3146


    I hope this helps.

  • mazda_guymazda_guy Member Posts: 183
    In South Florida so far I discovered that MOBIL gas delivers the most of Hydrogen sulfide smell. Chevron and Amoco are the best. No smell at all.

    MB
  • modeltmodelt Member Posts: 12
    I agree with Mazda guy. I used Chevron and had no bad smell. Recently I've been using Costgo gas and the smell is quiet apparent. My van has 1200 miles already. Wonder how long it will take for the Catalytic converter to break in and get rid of the bad smell.

    I also got a rock chip on the hood just after 1 month of driving. Anyone have good pointer with fixing paint chip?
  • sidiggiesidiggie Member Posts: 19
    Our MPV still has the sulfur stench. I've tried Mobil, Texaco,Shell and Sunoco. None seem to help. Mazda customer service says it is part of "normal break-in" process. The problem is so bad I really regret buying the van and would not recommend it to anyone. We'll probably end up pursuing problem under Connecticut's lemon law.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    How many miles have you logged on your MPV so far?
  • sschickenssschickens Member Posts: 2
    I'm a new member, and I've learned quite a bit from lurking the last few weeks. Thanks to all. I plan on purchasing an ES within the next two weeks, and I have two questions. If the sulfur smell is so prevalent, has anyone noticed it on a test drive? About price, the Consumer Reports Wholesale Price (from which you start negotiations) for an ES with the 4-seasons package would be about $25,500. With a 4% profit, that would put me at about $26,500. Does this sound fair? The reason I ask is that a gentleman from Virginia (I live in Maryland and would love to know what dealer he bought from) posted that he purchased an ES with 6-CD changer, 4-seasons package, and moonroof (among other things) for about $26,900. Don't know how a dealer could afford to sell at that price. Thanks in advance for any comments.

    Mark
  • mazda_guymazda_guy Member Posts: 183
    You may notice smell during the test drive. Try this while testing. Start the car and drive for a minute then stop for a minute or two and have ventilation fan on. You should smell it.

    I had smell for about first 1000 miles but not really bad. I could smell it only sometimes while standing at the stop light. No big deal. Now the smell is completely gone. I have 2700 miles.

    MB
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    I am on my 3rd MPV, all of which run on the cheapest gas I can buy (Arco). I have never noticed the sulfur smell or any other irregular tail pipe emission. My guess is that it varies by region.

    Anybody else in So. Cal. ever had the stinky pipe?
  • dbs2001dbs2001 Member Posts: 46
    We've had our 01 ES for 18 months with no smell. (We're in Silicon Valley.) Also, I've read that there was a $1k rebate to dealers. That's how the price gets reduced. Don't know if it's in effect right now.

    Dennis
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    Our MPV with 22K miles doesn't stink, and I too use the cheapest gas I can find, usually RaceTrac or Hess. But somebody else drove the first 13K miles, so I don't know what it was like when new.

    malt: I'm sure if you went downtown, you could find all sorts of stinky pipe, LOL!
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    I went to give blood last night and joked with the nurse about showing tracks thinking that every two months wouldn't cause that. She kindly pointed out that my right arm is, in fact, a pincushion.
  • owr084owr084 Member Posts: 46
    The ES that I bought in Northern VA on 11 May 02 was written up as follows:

    Vehicle - 26874.91
    VA Processing Fee - 220
    Tax - 812.85
    Business License tax, registration, etc. - 92.25
    Total - 28000.01

    This was for an ES with sunroof, cd changer, fog lights, 4 seasons, roof rack, and bumper plate.

    I am not sure if the $1000 incentive money to dealers is still being offered. It was when I bought and I used that knowledge to get a lower price.

    When looking for your van, go to the mazdausa website and check the inventory of allthe dealers in your area. If you like one, your dealer can probably trade for it.

    RBB
  • bean3422bean3422 Member Posts: 183
    The ES I bought in Northern Virginia on May 4, 2002 was written up as follows:
    Invoice: $26,645

    Vehicle--25945.00
    VA Processing Fee- 220
    License, Registration, etc. 92.25
    Sales Tax--787.75
    Total=27,045

    This was for an ES with Fog lights, 4 seasons, roof rack, bumper plate, rear spoiler, and cargo mat.

    I also used the $1000.00 dealer incentive. As you can see, I still did not get as good of a deal as I should have, but the dealer was nearby, and who is going to quibble over $100.00-200.00?
  • mazda_guymazda_guy Member Posts: 183
    You can't smell any odor because air is so polluted in CA that it doesn't matter anymore

    :-)))) MB
  • linchenlinchen Member Posts: 3
    I dropped the keyless remote for my MPV and it broke open. I snap the two pieces back together with the battery in it, but it refuses to work. There was no obvious sign of damage.

    Called the dealer service department and they said it must have been damaged and it will be about $100 to have it replaced.

    Could this just be that I need to have it sync up with my van since I had the battery out?

    Any help? Thanks
  • javadocjavadoc Member Posts: 1,167
    If your remote is indeed broken, try ebay. Do a search for "MPV remote," and you should find a number of them for sale right now. I just looked at one that said "New...for 2000-2001 MPV..." and you can do a 'buy it now' option for $14. If you have a 2002 van, I am not sure if they changed the p/n on that, maybe they didn't.


    Before you try that, look HERE for assistance on reprogramming your remote. These are instructions for adding a third remote. I haven't done this, so can someone give me an assist... can you reprogram the remote if you just have one other working one... or is it not an issue?


    /javadoc

  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    Glad to know our marketing campaign to keep folks out is still working.
  • diad98diad98 Member Posts: 5
    Hi,

    I live in CA & today is a hot day(90+).
    For driving my 02' ES 10 miles with air condition on and fan set for 2, it takes about 15 min and I park my car in my company's parking lot.
    Everything is normal and temp sense is in the middle.
    But 2 min after I park my car, I see water dripping to the ground about the location little behind the middle of two front wheels under the chasis.
    It's not from the reservor, doesn't look like from the coolant.
    Is it normal or a problem?

    Thx for your help

    ps. my ES milage is 399 now and I don't experience it before.
  • beachnutbeachnut Member Posts: 291
    Sounds normal to me, I'm sure it's just from the AC condenser. The water is just prolly taking a strange path under your MPV before it hits the ground. To be sure, pat your hand in the puddle to see if it's actually water. Just wait until you run the rear AC (if you have it). You'll notice the condensation dripping behind the passenger rear tire. Took a little getting used to when I first saw it.
  • sschickenssschickens Member Posts: 2
    Thanks. Does anyone know if the $1,000 dealer incentive is still in place? The Consumer Reports report that I paid $12 for did not mention it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We aren't showing any customer cash currently for the MPV - just some financing deals. There is cash for the 626 and maybe other Mazda models (at least for my zipcode).

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
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