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1) Obviosuly, speed limit. German doesn't have one, but the French does.
2) German autobahn are wider and best of all. Free!! (you pay in French autobahn for miles traveled, bring a credit card!! :-))
Before anyone ask, I didn't really care about the break in period, as I don't keep my BMW's long enough to change the first round of oil. Besides, The BMW reps in Munich told me to relax and enjoy the car, BMW are much better build car then anyone here on this board knows.
Yeah, FYI Reiz, I bought 5 bimmers in the last 30 months (6 if you count my M5, but that's a keeper). And I've been able to sell each and everyone of my Bimmers for more than I paid for the car. That essentially allows me to recover the money I spend in traveling for a week w/ the wife. So please don't give me your BS about not being able to save money w/ Euro delivery. I have NO interest trying to convert you to a ED beliver. After all, If everyone is a believer, then I won't be able to turn my cars over as esaily. Then I will actually have to PAY for my semi-annual vacation out of my pocket. So believe what you will.
Back to Paris, for those of you who are planning for ED, do your self a big favor, select the Navigation option. Yes, I know you are probably not a believer in Nav system, all I can tell you is that it is WELL worth it!! Take it from the one who has done it many times.
Driving in Paris in your new car can be nerve wrecking. You have to be aggresive and not being affariad of step on the gas. Keep in mind that if you leave a gap, then someone will squeeze in there. BMW offers a comprehensive insurance w/ zero deductble, no question ask type of insurance. All at no cost to you, so do drive w/ a piece of mind.
btw, I also stayed at Hotel Jedermann, Nice place, with very reasonable rate (inclds an authetic Bavaria Breakfast). I highly recommended.
beewang
Actually, I am leaving for Munich with my wife the day after tax day, we are scheduled to pick my 530i up on 17-Apr, and then take a leisurely drive on the two lane back roads to Paris for a long weekend with friends and family. Needless to say, I intend to have a route already mapped out directly to a parking garage, where the 530i will spend its tenure in Paris. ;-)
Pap5,
Sounds like you had a wonderful trip, I like the idea of the Museum passes, the last time I was there (1985) they either did not have them, or I did not hear of them, either way, I stood in the rain. ;-)
530bmw,
Last night, while I was waiting for my car in a garage at 56th and 7th, I noticed a new S500 sitting next to a 745i, so I just walked around both cars, and made some mental comparisons. All in all, IF I was in the market for such a car (trust me, even if I could afford one of them (I can't), I would still rather have my 530i), I have to admit it, the Mercedes-Benz would easily win out over the BMW. While the BMW may be the most technically advanced of the two, the MB wins hands down as far as looks goes, both inside and out.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
brave1heart/habitat, I know one of you own a 95 Maxima can you shed some light?
A friend who also had a Max told me she had the same problem!!
Try it before replacing hinges!
I think Beewang's right - if what he says is true, then he has a gift of unloading nearly-new bimmers for a profit. (Bee - followed your M5 trip across the country with great fascination on the bimmer board)
Shipo went into extraordinary details some posts ago to details costs. Rather than repeating him with my version, here's some more information for you: http://www.bariaur.com/e39/EDsavings.html. Can't say you'd be convinced reading that either.
IMHO, at the end of the day, you can't be too anal about every single penny. The objective here is to get a good car, have a good time and not get cleaned out of your wallet doing so; this is not an excercise in creating a balance sheet. And if you are as smart as beewang, you can also make money having fun. Then there is a value placed on human emotion - the joy of experiencing new places and other cultures, the thrill of 100mph+ driving, the memories you have with loved ones - these just don't translate into money.
If you are worried about every single penny, may I respectfully suggest that you shouldn't be considering a bimmer. I'll paraphrase one of my good friends: If you want to save money, stay at home - you'll save a lot! If you want to save more money - don't buy a bimmer - you'll save even more! In any case, for most people, a car never a smart investment. It is a depreciating asset, and expensive cars depreciate more in absolute $$ terms.
'Nuff said.
Vishnu
PS: For all you ED travelers, Lufthansa economy was sorely lacking in food and comfort. Try some other airline or try business.
ALL I say is the only true comparison is between:
a. A buyer in USA negotiating really hard with available dealers to get the absolute best price s/he can. And the absolute best leasing or financing deal.
b. The total cost of ED, including time, effort, paperwork, etc. Not sure I've seen anyone who has actually done an ED deal account for all the money costs, time costs, hassle costs, waiting costs, etc. The true cost of ED is more than just mere dollars!
And the person in (b) can only claim a comparison if they also first seriously tried to do (a). Because without trying (a) first, how do they know how much the same or similar car would cost non-ED?
That leads me to opine that a good negotiator in (a) might not be paying that much more (or possibly even less) than the person in (b) once you factor in all relevant actual and opportunity costs.
Thus it might be perfectly logical and economically rational to NOT go ED.
I'd love to know whether or not you get a better trade deal if you ED or not? Or will dealers doing ED not take trades? (I'd be fearful to do an ED with trade and then wreck my trade while I wait for the ED.)
I'd also love ED people to report on their financing. Can you finance thru your bank or credit union? Or are you trapped with BMW FS?
Can you lease thru ED? I don't know. If not, then ED wouldn't be the way to go if leasing is in your interest. If yes, is the lease deal less than what you could get leasing directly from dealer stock?
Conclusion: If anyone says ED is better always or in most cases, then they bear the burden of proving it. And if they can't prove it, then just say ED works for you but might not for others (and might not actually save you money).
Fair 'nuff?
I just struck a great deal on ED - and am sleeping on a few options over the weekend before pulling the trigger - so I would like to know about Ed financing as well!!
I know you have to pay for the car ahead of time!
When do you pay State taxes on the car? When you register it upon arrival?
Total savings (interpolated from the old lease agreement):
CAP: ~$1,942.34
Monthly: ~$57.20
Now, in 2002, once again, being active on the BMW boards, I had a fair idea of the type of deal that I was looking for, namely, about $1,500 over ED invoice. A 20-minute discussion with a salesman at the dealership where I leased the 328i provided no joy, so I decided to call around. On my first call, I made my offer; the salesman said “I will call you back in five minutes.” He called back in eight minutes, and asked me if I was willing to order the car right then, and I told him the equipment that I wanted and that I would be right over with a deposit check. I drove right over, signed the order, gave him a deposit, and walked out with a 36 month lease on a $47,395 MSRP car for $558 per month (CAP cost of $42,180), once again with “Zero Down” (meaning paying security, first month AND second month (required by BMWFS for ED), GAP insurance (also required by BMWFS, and not a bad idea anyway), and origination fee, totaling about $2,500). I have since had to make two other trips to the dealership to sign an ED related document, and deliver a notarized photocopy of my Passport, and to drop off the final monies due 30 days prior to delivery in Munich.
Total savings (less the cost of the trip):
CAP: $5,684.35 (Including extra sales and luxury taxes)
Monthly: $170.00
Given that I travel a fair amount, and have the associated costs calculated fairly accurately (and I am sure that I have), the cost (as previously posted) for a minimal “Lone Wolf” trip would be $1,243.19, generating a savings of $4,441.16. To match that deal, you would have to negotiate a 530i, 5-Speed, PP, SP, PA, Xenon down to about $1,000 BELOW the dealerships’ invoice cost, which, in my opinion, is not very likely.
Do I think that ED is a better deal if you are already planning a trip to Europe? Without question, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody here has contested that point.
Do I think that ED is a better deal if an individual does a 2-day “Quickie”? Absolutely.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
(a) I did do the eval between non-ED and ED and ED won.
My first question was exactly the same - is it worth it economically to do ED? From the point of view of the price of the car, ED won handsomely. I negotiated with the dealer first a flat $1200 profit over invoice (at the time I was undecided re ED/non-ED). Therefore, if the cost of the car was $35K ED invoice, I agreed to pay $36200 and if it cost $40K non-ED invoice, I agreed to pay $41200. As you probably already know, ED invoice is significantly less than non-ED invoice. In addition to that, ED implied that I did not have to pay for MACO fees which dealers will pass on if the car will be delivered non-ED. In the Boston area, that's around $200+. Finally, its easier for a reasonable dealer to negotiate a tighter profit margin because ED does not feature into the dealership's car allotment.
My next question was: is the savings worth the extra hassle and paperwork, if any? I kept travel arrangements out of this because travel is something I can control. When I investigated it, ED paperwork is not significantly different than regular non-ED delivery. Perhaps the only difference is that you have to sign a piece of paper committing to ED delivery when the production number is available. I also was keen on getting the factory tour, so I pestered the dealer and BMWNA for this until I was satisfied I was on the list (note that this is an optional step). I did get an International Driver's License, but this is a 10 min thing at a AAA office. You need a passport obviously, and if you don't have this, its a bit of a hassle getting it done in time for the trip.
My final question was: Is financing going to be a [non-permissible content removed]? I did investigate this, and it turns out that I will be out of about $100 because I have to finance with BMWFS rather than with my favorite bank. The reason is that the favorite bank requires the title and insurance (which requires a title), and the title cannot be had until the car is Stateside and has a Certificate of Origin. BMWFS overlooks this because of obvious reasons. As soon as the title and/or car is Stateside, I am going to refinance with my favorite bank at no additional cost of pre-payment to BMWFS. BMWFS's rate was not bad - 6.99% as opposed to the industry standard around 5.5%+, so there's not much difference (I did put down a cash downpayment). I would have blown the extra $100 in a dinner or a speeding ticket anyway.
Corollary question was: should I should lease or finance? Since the lease is a definite 3 years and I would not have the car for over 2 months, I would not be driving it for the full period. With financing, this meant that I am merely accelerating my car payments but not been denied driving privileges in the long term. Plus I have heard too many horror stories about leasing and I did not want to get ulcers watching the odometer all the time. So financing it was. Yup, this means that as a buyer, I may be in for a significant crash when the new E60 comes out, but bimmers are great cars anyway and this did not mean much of a downside to me. Hopefully, Bangle will keep his ideas alive and my value afloat..:-) As Shipo pointed out, however, you can either lease or finance ED.
After all of this, my other goal was to make sure that the savings actually materialized after the Munich vacation. So I did not stay at the Kempinski or the Bayerischer Hof but stayed at a Colony Inn right opposite the Niederlassung dealer, took the sardine-class in Lufthansa for $320 rt and utilized the excellent Munich subway system. All off-season of course. A couple of hours on the Internet, and I had everything lined up. Munich has some incredible international food, btw.
(b) My opinion about trading a vehicle is the same broken record that Edmund's preaches: Never discuss a trade until the deal on your new car is done. Both deals should be financially separate. I should not be one to preach, however, since I have got shafted before. Maybe next time I'll be sharper.
Hope this helps!
Fair 'nuff?
I don't think I have ever heard of a CPOed executive car with under 10,000 miles. FWIW, I live right by BMWNA, and I rarely see any of the employee cars being "Abused", and the ones that are, are things like M3s and such. Also, if it was an "Executive Car", technically, it is not Pre-Owned.
Theomd,
I ran your numbers and they seem pretty good, I would go for that deal.
Best Regards,
Shipo
That is exactly what the BMW dealer told us when my wife initially tried to buy her used '00 323iA. It was a dealer's service loaner (had never been titled to another party) and had about 18,000 miles on it. When I told the dealer it was either CPO or no deal, he agreed to CPO it. We wrote the deal up with CPO clearly specified.
Thought I read somewhere that BMW dealers could CPO cars that had at least 6,000 miles on odometer.
Thanks
Cape Cod
1. You bought the then all brand new E46 3 Series platform upon introduction. Didn't it come out in CY 1998 as a MY 1999? And you were buying the hotter 328i? This is the time dealers will be attempting to get the most money for the car, as they are dealing with the type buyers who have to have the latest and greatest and will pay the most. Compare MSRP with same options on your then new '99 328i to a new '02 330i (adjusting for engine difference and changes in standard equipment), and then take into account inflation.
2. And now, near the end of its platform life, you are buying an E39 5 Series, at a time when this platform is in its 7th model year and facing a replacement soon? People are now focusing more on the next generation 5 Series than the current generation.
On an inflation adjusted basis and taking into account all the additional standard equipment acquired by both platforms thru their lives, the '02 330i and '02 530i cost less today than they did upon introduction. (And they cost BMW a lot less to build per unit today, as they amortize plant & equipment and the production learning curve allows them to produce them quicker and easier, requiring fewer man-hours to make, etc.).
Leasing complicates your situation. There has likely been a significant change in projected residuals. Not to mention a huge difference in interest rates between CY 1998 and CY 2001/2. Rates have fallen dramatically in just the past year.
So I end up having a hard time drawing any firm conclusions from your stories. I might if you had tried to both seriously negotiate ED and non-ED in BOTH CY 1998 and CY 2002.
We did the deal on a Saturday in the afternoon (12/1/01). Almost an impulse purchase. We were on vacation in Des Moines seeing my parents when I came back from Appleton WI the day before with my CPO 540i6. Wife became insanely jealous when she rode in it. We were driving by the DSM BMW dealer, European Motorcars, and she said she had to see if they had a car she liked! We walked the lot with the salesman but she didn't see anything she liked. As we were getting ready to leave we were walking thru the Service Area. She saw a silver 323iA and looked at it. Salesman commented it was a Service Loaner. But it was the right color and had all the exact options she wanted (PP, sunroof, CD, leather, metallic paint, automatic, heated seats). So he said he'd ask the dealership about selling her the loaner.
When we worked the deal out with the salesperson we discussed CPO. Told him I was only buying CPO. I probably mentioned it 3 times. He agreed. We got a price (for car and trade-in) and he wrote it up. When we were passed to the finance person (the real deal person) I noticed no mention of CPO. He then acted surprised about going CPO. Told him we had discussed it in advance and the salesperson had agreed. Told him the deal stayed as was, and he write it up CPO, or we'd walk. Told him I had no problem waiting and betting that Markel BMW in Omaha would have something she wanted. So he wrote it up. We got the price we negotiated.
On to a different subject, according to Consumer Report (April issue), the best overall lux sedan car is the 530. It is so good that the chart ran out of room for "excellent" on the right side. Check it out for yourself.
Got me wondering about differences in deals when there is a lease subsidy. If BMW USA is subsidizing leases (either artificially low money factor or artificially high residual), can you get that subsidized lease deal thru ED? Or is that only from dealer stock?
Or differences if BMW FS is offering cut-rate purchase financing (e.g., 3.9 percent subsidized financing)? Can you get this rate going ED or do you get a higher rate?
Someone (shipo?) mentioned buying his ED thru BMW FS but then planning to refinance thru his local bank or credit union. Wouldn't the refinance deal be based on a used car? Interest rates are normally higher for used cars rather than new cars? Don't see how the bank or credit union could finance as a new car, since it would already have been titled thru the original lender. It would then be-retitled. And the loan terms might be different. Some used car loaners might only go 48 months or 60 tops while new car financing is almost always available out to 60 months and sometimes 72 or 84.
Said another way, if I had paid MSRP ($47,395) for my 530i, the residual would have been $28,437. If I had done a $1,500 over US invoice deal ($44,850), the residual would still have been $28,437. In my case, I did a $1,500 over ED invoice deal ($42,180), and yes, my residual was still $28,437.
Reiz,
The differences between my two BMW leases are interesting, my 1999 328i had a calculated residual of 63% after 39 months, while my 530i has a calculated residual of only 60% after 36 months, definately not as good of a deal. That said, the interest percentage on the 328i was around 6.6% while the interest on the 530i is more like 5.0%, which works more in my favor.
In the end, the two differences come close to cancelling each other out (gut guess, I haven't run the numbers yet).
Best Regards,
Shipo
2002 525ia
Anybody else got the letter from BMW USA that there's a recall? Something with strut mount is not secure and can damage your car such as front tires blowing while driving if this problem is not fixed.
Appearently, I will not go fix this because i am using H&R springs already on my car.
Actually I mentioned that. Right now, it appears that many lenders are offering refinancing at the same rate as new cars. Check it out at your local banks. Same goes with the loan term.
Vishnu
I went CPO on my '98 540i6. At time BMW FS would only go 48 months on its 3.9 percent deal (and they made first payment). You could get 60 months on some newer used cars and thinking upwards of 72 on new cars. I ended up going thru USAA FSB for a 72 month loan on wife's CPO '00 323iA.
With the glut of used cars on market due to all the new car sales during the aggressive 0.0 percent financing wars, now the dealers are subsidizing used car loans. Seeing many for 0.0 percent to 3.9 percent. But often the terms of loan are only 24 or 36 months.
The interest rate is going to be tied to future inflationary expectations and short-term interest rate activity by Federal Reserve Rate. Fed has aggressively cut its short-term rates so interest rates on most durable goods financed for 60 months or less has declined dramatically over past year. (Think Fed cut its short-term rate 11 times in 2001, a record number of cuts in such a short period.) But you must keep in mind that it is the market, not the Fed, that determines long-term interest rates, e.g., 15- or 30-year house mortgages. That is tied to inflationary expectations and market desired real rates or return on various risk levels.)
Automotive residuals and depreciation are driven by the future expectation of the value of the car over time. This will be driven by supply & demand, reliability, buyer perceptions, etc. But you have to keep in mind the nominal versus the "real" value of the car over time.
There can be some linkage if the short-run expected inflation rate is high. Anyone remember the double-digit annual inflation rate under then President Carter in late 1970s? Retail prices were skyrocketing as the nominal value of the dollar plummeted each year. Each dollar held for a year would buy less goods and services at the end of the year. Makes more since to spend rather than hold money during high inflationary times. Since the residual or depreciated value of the car will be in nominal dollars, high inflationary expectations can raise the residual to account for the real decline in the value of the currency though not the car. As the nominal value of all used cars is increasing by the rate of inflation.
High inflation can raise the nominal value of a used car higher than its start at the beginning of the year. But the "real" value of the car is still declining, once adjusted for inflation.
But the late 1970s high inflation and high inflationary expectations were far, far different than the late 1990s.
Why would you go for a 72 month (6-year) loan? Wouldn't the interest on that be inordinately high compared to the original loan? Did you calculate how much interest you would be paying compared to the principal? How did you rationalize this?
Vishnu
But I did get a very good interest rate on the deal. I was preapproved for a special offer. Told my wife I wanted her to keep the car for many years. When she bought it at 18,000 miles CPO she ended up with 32,000 miles of b-to-b warranty plus 50K more CPO warranty miles. Is under warranty thru Aug 2006 (57 months warranty period from 12/1/01 purchase).
And if she sells it, there is no penalty nor does USAA FSB use any horrid interest rate calculation formula (e.g., Rule of 72 that is allowed in some states).
riez, i suppose we all would like CPO if it was added on at no extra charge.
DL
Bought MY 2000 540i 6-speed w/premium sound, shades, few other minor options for $1,200 over ED invoice. Including shipping, I bought in February 2000 for $49,365. That price does not include taxes (sales, luxury or gas guzzler).
The best deal I was offered at the time for a US delivery car was $1,700 over US invoice (and it was not to my preferred specs). As I recall, the US invoice in 2000 was about $3,800 higher than the ED invoice, so my "gross" savings were roughly $4,300 ($3,800 + $500).
The entire cost of the trip for me was $1,683. However, it was a business trip and deductable, so my net trip cost was under $900. I also paid cash for the car, so leasing or financing differences were not a factor.
I am now selling my 2-year old 540i with 40,000 miles for $42,500 to a buyer referred through my dealership. That is roughly a split between trade-in and retail value. The car is in exceptional condition with 90%+ highway miles. Although I didn't sell my ED car at a profit, 2 years and 40,000 miles for under $7,000 depreciation is pretty good in my book.
I expect to take delivery next week of a new 2002 M5. Getting it at $7,500 under MSRP (which just happens to be the forfeited deposit of the buyer who ordered an interesting color combination and then backed out of the deal in transit). It's good to have friends in the business.
It's certainly your perogative to remain skeptical about the benefits of ED. I, for one, could never figure out why someone would pay $40k for a used car. But I'm glad they do!
Noticed the Supreme Court decision mentioned the case of Caribe BMW, Inc. v BMW Aktiengesellschaft as ruled on 3/25/94 by the US First Circuit Court of Appeals, in a decision by then Circuit Chief Judge Breyer (now Supreme Court Justice), No. 93-1653. Caribe filed suit in 1991 and lost in District Court. The Caribe v. BMW AG decision has some interesting discussion about various then BMW AG practices. Caribe bought cars directly from BMW AG in Germany and resisted BMW AG's attempts starting in 1987 to force Caribe to buy directly from BMW NA. And Caribe ended up facing BMW NA selling BMWs to its competing BMW dealers cheaper than it could get them from BMW AG. And Caribe had to agree to maximum sales prices. If Caribe violated the contract, which had exclusive dispute resolution clause mandating German venue, then BMW AG could terminate Caribe's contract. (Before CA1, BMW AG lost and case remanded, but don't know what happened afterwards.)
Both cases are on the internet. US Supreme Court's web site for State Oil and CA1's site for Caribe (www.ca1.uscourts.gov).
To each their own. And, as I said, I am glad that used BMW's maintain their value so well. Means I'm "spending" less to buy one new.
Best Regards,
Shipo
My first question was exactly the same - is it worth it economically to do ED? From the point of view of the price of the car, ED won handsomely. I negotiated with the dealer first a flat $1200 profit over invoice (at the time I was undecided re ED/non-ED). Therefore, if the cost of the car was $35K ED invoice, I agreed to pay $36200 and if it cost $40K non-ED invoice, I agreed to pay $41200. As you probably already know, ED invoice is significantly less than non-ED invoice. In addition to that, ED implied that I did not have to pay for MACO fees which dealers will pass on if the car will be delivered non-ED. In the Boston area, that's around $200+. Finally, its easier for a reasonable dealer to negotiate a tighter profit margin because ED does not feature into the dealership's car allotment.
Enjoy your M5! I did ED about a week and a half ago. I find it interesting that I ordered the car late last December and life passed between then and March fairly quickly. After ED pickup, every day of waiting is excruciating. :-) Anybody had the same experience?
Btw, I dropped the car off at the Harms location in Munich - any way of finding out whether its been trucked to Bremerhaven? (I think Bremerhaven is the nearest port to Munich).
Vishnu
There is a BMW tracking system, but I'm not sure how detailed it is, since I haven't used it for a couple of years. Check with your dealer. Good luck.
Last Friday, I went to my local “Dent Wizard” (by appointment), and using Black Magic, Voodoo, Curses (I heard them from the waiting room ;-)), and some very appropriately applied leverage, my ding was COMPLETELY removed, no trace at all, none, zip zero, zilch, NADA! Total cost: 1.5 hours and $150, a veritable bargain, I shouldn’t have waited so long. ;-)
There are a number of “Paintless Dent Removal” outfits dotted around the country, and I highly recommend exploring this option prior to having a traditional bodyshop breath on any dings or prangs suffered by your car.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The dent wizard dance & funny-shaped-steel-bar-thingee worked. Oh, if you stood at just the perfect angle in the sun and were looking for it, you could see something had happened, but...
I'll stand with you on recommending them as a great place to try before hitting a body shop.
Take care.
Joe W.