BMW 5-Series Sedans

nyccarguy · October 2002

Yeah, BMW is offering 0% financing for 60 months with an addtional $2000 Cash back rebate on all 2002 5 series models.

Sorry, I just had to get that one out. I believe the only incentives right now is the fact that the residuals are up for the month of October, so a lease would be somewhat cheaper.

riez · October 2002

nyccarguy... Are you trying to send me into apoplexy? When I saw you write about 0 percent financing and $2,000 rebate I about immediately picked up the phone to call local BMW dealer to buy the 2002 525i Sport manual he has on lot! Then I read "the rest of the story" and I came crashing back into reality from fantasyland.

nyccarguy · October 2002

I don't know what came over me:) Actually if BMW were to offer 0% financing and $2,000 cash back (selling their cars at 2K under invoice) we'd probably be in a whole lot of trouble economically speaking:)

While I've got your attention, there is a poster on the 7 series thread that is questioning whether or not to buyout the lease of his 1998 740i or pick up one of the shiny new 745is (plural). I steered him towards keeping his 740i given that the value will be considerably less than his residual and having his dealer CPO the car. Maybe you could pop over there and enlighten him about your plethora of CPO program knowledge as well as wonderful CPO experiences (I know you're usually very shy about that sort of thing).

Soory to put you in such dissaray before:)

nyca · October 2002

Who knows, 5 series sales were down 22% in September 2002 from the same month in 2001. The new E class plus the coming E60 is likely the reason, so you never know what kind of incentives might arise if this trend for the E39 continues month after month.

cmr530i · October 2002

That was a good laugh! Thanks!

pen101 · October 2002

rwolp: I was periodically checking the oil level (about every couple of thousand miles or so), but the computer sensor did warn me about the low oil level. I checked with two BMW dealers about whether the oil was covered under warrantee and they said no (salesman had initially told me everything was covered except tires). Cost me $4.14 including tax. Not so terrible.

epn2: I went to a Mercedes sponsored event last year at Hollywood Park and compared various Mercedes models against similar BMW and Audi models on two different tracks. That was fun. I can be seduced by power, but I do have a limited budget (otherwise I would be driving a 540 or M5 right now instead of the 530). But should be interesting to see how the E320 and E500 drives compared to my 530.

bartalk2: price comparison came from Eurobuyers.com website. Invoice price went up on 2002 models on 1/01/02 and appears to have gone up slightly for the 2003 models (with the options I chose for my car)

the rest: thanks for the input to my recirculated air question. I am doing as snagiel suggests and selecting the "A" option. As for the new E60 model with idrive, I have 27 months left on my lease to decide whether to keep my car or deal with idrive. If no manual transmission is offered, my decision will be made easier, as I will keep my 2002 530 5-speed.

joatmon · October 2002

There's actually little written about BMW synthetic. It's the only 5W30 I know of that meets ACEA A3/B3 specifications, although some say that Scheaffers #701 blend does. The Syntec meets ACEA A3/B3 specs in their heavier oils, but Syntec 5W30 and 10W30 don't. Since BMW recommends what is essentially an extended drain interval, I wouldn't take a chance when a certified oil is readily available at a great price.

I have seen the oil analysis results of the BMW synthetic from a 1997 M3 and the numbers on a 6,000 mile interval looked great: low wear numbers, stayed within grade, and a TBN of 8.8. It looked like a lot a life left in the oil. The virgin BMW synthetic is loaded with detergents and ZDDP, and starts out as a heavier 30 weight than most 5W30's.

As a personal testimony, I used BMW synthetic after using Mobil 1, and the BMW synthetic darkened quickly the first time I used it, indicating that it picked up some stuff Mobil 1 left behind. Subsequent changes of BMW synthetic stay clearer, longer. BTW, I'm not knocking Mobil 1 here.

Jack

habitat1 · October 2002

I also have driven the new E class, as a friend is a leasing executive for one of the local dealers and has been trying to get me to consider an E-Wagon as a replacement for our SUV (the wagon is still the old style for 2003). I also came close to replacing my sedan with a 530i 5-speed sport last fall, so I have extensively test driven the 530i. In my opinion, the 5-series still sets the standard for handling and steering. It is very difficult for me to objectively compare the 530i and E500, since I have a strong preference for a manual transmission. But a buddy of mine who owns a 540iA sport came along for the ride and also drove the E500. He promptly proclaimed his 540i to be secure, based purely on its handling advantage.

As for any concern that the new E60 will not offer a manual transmission, I wouldn't worry. I have it on a very reliable source the the 5-series will never go that route. Too many driving enthusiasts would have heart attacks and sue BMW for their medical expenses.

aggiebart · October 2002

Thanks for the heads up on the 0%. I didn't put enough down to qualify for that but 2.9% is not that bad.

riez · October 2002

aggiebart... So what is the real deal on your deal? Are you being serious? On a new BMW? CPO? BMW FS? Or is this just another sick joke? (I can't take this kind of joking, at least not unless it is on April 1st.)

dl7265 · October 2002

Thanks for the heads up on a 525i manual at your dealer ! im having it shipped to TX ! :)im geting the 2.9% also......

sorry couldnt resist

DL

habitat1 · October 2002

is there anything going on with the 5-series? I just checked in with my dealer who had offered $1,500 over European Delivery invoice last fall on a 2002 530i. I decided not to replace my sedan at the time, but am now reconsidering for this coming winter/spring. The same dealer said they could probably do $1,000 over ED invoice on a 530i if I order before December. That's better than any offer I've seen on this board. They claim it's "thanks" for my having referred several customers to them since last fall. But I'm wondering if there is going to be more serious discounting before the new 5-series starts production. I was also offered a 2002 E320 Wagon last June at $2,000 under invoice, so such discounting is not unprecidented. Any comments?

john01 · October 2002

Who is your salesman? I am looking for a decent guy to work out a potential trade. You can email me directly. Thanks.

nyca · October 2002

5 series sales were down 22% from the same period last year, in September. If the trend continues, expect dealer incentives from BMWNA. I am also holding out to see the trend.

riez · October 2002

nyca... Not sure BMW is too worried about the sales activity of the 5 Series. The whole world knows the new platform 5 Series is coming. The E39 platform came out in CY 1996 as a MY 1997. That is nearly an eternity in today's car business. Would be interesting to see what their sales projections and production plans had been for the 5 Series in MY 2003. BMW's overall worldwide and USA sales have been good. Doubt there is much need, if any, for incentives. Does more harm than good in long run.

snagiel · October 2002

The E39 run has been long, but the fact that it's still among the most competitive in an already very competitive field says something about how well it was designed to begin with. And, while longer than some of the fickle Japanese brands, the run hasn't been that long. Take a look at the Mustang. Or the Chevy Cavalier. Or, until it was just recently replaced, the Jeep Cherokee. They're built on platforms literally twenty years old. Or the engines in a Land Rover Discovery or a Bentley Arnage, which have barely changed in nearly 30 years. Heck, didn't the Mercedes E-class just finish up a 9-year run?

john01 · October 2002

I agree with you there for the most part of about the long run of the chassis design, but the one about Mustang, I don't know. I think Ford really tried to wrung out every penny on that antiquated chassis from Mustang II. Some, I agree were well designed and lasted, but some of them outlived their usefulness, probably due to bean counters.

ghomaz · October 2002

Hello all. I have decided to go in for a Certified Pre-Owned BMW. My budget is $30K. I now have to decide which "series" to buy. Personally, I like the 5 series but is there a significant difference in maintenance and ownership costs between the 3, 5 and 7 series? This is going to be a second car so interior space, trunk volume, etc. are not decision factors. Thanks for your help.

sezme2 · October 2002

Bought a 540iA 6 weeks ago, and attended the MB "E-motion" event in Ft. Worth, TX a couple weekends ago. Was utterly underwhelmed by the lack of performance in the E320. I've not driven a 525/530, but the E320 was downright embarrassing. My Volkswagen Passat (5-speed) may be able to perform the course quicker, and more confidently?

The E500 was much more impressive than it's weak little sister, but still lacking in the ooomph of it's BMW counterpart. Overall, the E500 seemed more luxurious than my 540i, and certainly had more bells (buttons) and whistles (levers), but it felt a bit like a lumbering tank. It's cornering on the slalom course evidenced much body roll compared to my usual drive.

The "keyless go" seems like a fantastic idea, and I hope my next BMW has this as an option. Furthermore, I hope BMW's new M5 redesign isn't priced too much higher than current, as I hope that'll be my next ride!

My wife talked me into getting an automatic 540i, but we got the sport package at my pleading. Now, BMW has turned her into a "driver," and our next purchase will be manual (thank goodness).

--Shane

dl7265 · October 2002

i also went to the Texas Motor Speedway. Was that you that got kicked off the course for squealing the tires ? j/k seriously on the E500 course the start guy said after the cone "hard as you want " and the finish guy was cutting off armbands.....

i was suprised also how many seniors, women and children were at the event. Dont think i fall in to the "E class" yet

DL

riez · October 2002

ghomaz... Going BMW CPO is a smart move. Look for one you can readily afford that has what you want (options and colors).

Check out BMW NA's CPO locator. Easy to use. That can help you find what you want in your price range.

You should test drive both the 3 and 5 Series. That is likely the only way you'll know what works best for you.

Whatever you do, get one with SPORT PACKAGE!

Believe right now BMW Financial Services offering 3.9 percent financing on CPOs. My local BMW dealer's (Markel BMW) ad in today's Omaha World-Herald also shows them making your first month's payment. That is what I got when I went BMW FS CPO for my '98 540i on 11/30/01.

dzuba · October 2002

I agree, the Sport package and those rims are great looking. But for those of us that drive 30-35K miles per year, does the Sport Package and Auto make sense. Regardless of miles per year driven, does the SP and the Auto make sense. Now add in my 35K miles per year, living in the midwest, do Sport Tires make sense? I wish the answer to all the above was yes - but not sure it will be! Unless I keep my current Maxima 98 GLE with 100K miles on it for the winter, and drive the BMW whatever (most likely a 530) during the non-winter months.

sezme2 · October 2002

DL- Haha. I saw a kid get the arm band cut, too. Conflict between the start guy, and finish guy. You know how peesed off I'd have been if they cut my arm band? I suspect that higher apparent socioeconomic status of the driver could spare the armband cutting practice. There were a lot of kids there. My first job required that all drivers of my company car (a Chevy Corsica, no less) be related to me, and above 25 years old. There were a lot of younguns there. IMHO, MB needed to do a bit more research on their invitees.

habitat1 · October 2002

I drive roughly 20k miles a year - not as much as you - but more than average. I also have a Maxima - 1995 SE 5-speed. I was considering the 530i last fall, but decided I'd keep my Maxima for another year or two and got a Honda S2000 as a fun car.

I'm not quite sure of the nature of your "do sport package and auto make sense" question. I assume you want an automatic? I will say that, having never owned an automatic for the past 25+ years and 10+ vehicles, the 530i is not where I am going to break that streak. It's one of the nicest manual transmissions out there in a sedan. As for the sport package, it's a must have after I drove both. Yes, you will go through tires a bit quicker, but on a $42k+ car that is arguably the best handling sedan out there, it's worth it for me. Just don't drive a 530i sport if you aren't ready to buy. The Maxima will feel like an overweight Buick by comparison!

As for winter driving, the DC area is pretty tame. If I lived in an area with heavier snow, I'd get a set of steel wheels and snow tires for the winter. I see little difference in that decision whether or not I opted for the sport package.

For me, the 530i 5-speed sport is the likely choice when I do replace my Maxima. Not that an automatic non-sport isn't a good choice, but if I were in your milage range, I might also consider a new E-class turbodiesel when they come out next year. That's probably the ultimate high milage car for someone not interested in a manual or best in class handling. I almost got one of those in 1999 (last year made) and although I am glad I didn't, it would be worth a lot more than a similar vinatage, similar milage 528i today.

riez · October 2002

habitat1... Completely concur. If you can afford a 5 Series, then you can afford some winter tires & wheels as well as buying a new set of summer tires every now and then. Small price to pay for the fantastic driving experience. I know it is as compared to my 540i6.

bimmer12 · October 2002

Hey Guys:

I've been away a long time but good to see that the interesting and helpful discussions are still going on. I was looking at European Delivery option for a 330xi or 325ixt based on the $1500 over invoice deals that many dealers offer for the program. There were some adobe acrobat files floating around (dealer prices) and I was curious if anyone can post the invoice prices, specifically the European Delivery prices for these models...Would be easier with the file so that I could price it with options so a link would be appreciated.

I haven't seen any posts from Shipo since his move. His dealer Mike Weber at Park Ave BMW in Maywood, NJ left and I was curious if he was working at another BMW dealership.

bimmer12 · October 2002

Just read a few posts and saw some info on eurobuyers.com... relating to invoice prices

dzuba · October 2002

Sorry, sounds as if I was not as clear as I should have been. Since I do drive so much, I am leaning, only leaning towards an auto vs. manual - so my question is: Does it make sense to still go with the Sport Package aong with the Automatic, or does the SP really only make sense with a manual? Thanks!

habitat1 · October 2002

I have a friend with a 540iA sport and he certainly appreciates the sport package handling. A friend of his has an E55 and the concensus is that the 540iA sport handles nearly as well as the E55 without the harshness.

As for your "leaning" towards an automatic, I respect that this is a personal decision. However, I myself would still go fo a manual. Unless a big chunk of your 35k miles per year is in stop and go rush hour traffic, you probably won't wear out your left leg any faster than if you "only" drove 20k miles a year like me. Personally, I find driving an automatic somewhat numbing. I extensively test drove a C32 and M3 last fall and was surprised at how quickly the 349 hp C32 went from exhilerating to boring. I would enjoy driving a lowly 330ci 5-speed more than the C32. I am not a drag racer by any means (even my S2000 at its 7,500 service showed virtually no brake pad wear). I just like the driver involvement of a manual. And, every once in awhile, the fun to drive factor creeps in.

I respectfully suggest you try to get a hold of a 530i 5-speed and automatic for extensive test drives before you make up your mind on the transmission.

metmdx · October 2002

Hi all:

Well, 3 months later and 4k miles later, loving every minute of my '99 528ia CPO purchase. Unfortunately, winter is coming soon (i think) here in the northeast and I want to get prepared.

What is my best source for OEM BMW wheels? I am debating buying a set of winter tires for my recently purchased CPO '99 528i non-sport and want to put them on the OEM wheels currently on the car and get a new set of wheels for spring when I put the "regular" tires back on.
I only want to put BMW wheels on, not some aftermarket make.
Your input is greatly appreciated.

TIA,
metmdx

linard · October 2002

I'm surprised that the E500 you drove "rolled" in corners considering it has the Airmatic DC that cuts body roll between 68 to 95 percent depending on setting. It also goes 0-60 in 5.8, which is a little faster than the equivalent 540 Sport Automatic. I agree though, the Beemer is a much sportier car for which it is designed. In a recent CAR article, a british publication, an E320, 530i, and a Passat W8 were compared. The Passat was dead last, it was never designed to compete in that class. In the end, they gave the vote to the E320 but they conceded that the two cars were pretty different with sport/luxury people being better served by the 5 while the luxury/sport crowd being well served by the E320. While the 530 was faster to 60, they felt that the E's engine "felt" faster since the max torque is spread from 2500-4800 rpms. The E is a much better freeway and highway car which I can vouch for since my previous car, which I gave to my mom, was a 525i. The also conceded that the difference in drivng experiences weren't that huge but they were there. I also belive that your Passat 5 speed (so I'm assuming it's a 1.8T) goes 0-60 in 8.5 seconds if you have the 170 hp engine which is a second slower than what the E320 will do.

sergeym · October 2002

E500 does have more body roll that 540 Sport. MB just cannot put to much sportiness into E-class. MB buyers will not buy it. As to the 5.8 0-60, if you are referring to the latest C&D issue, note that this magazine got 5.7 0-60 for 2001 540 ia in the last years test.

snagiel · October 2002

{Sorry about the delayed reply; I was away for the weekend.}

I agree completely. I wasn't arguing that a persistent old chassis necessarily correlates to a well-designed, future-proof blueprint. The Cherokee, the Cavalier, and the Mustang (among others, such as the suspension design on the Z3) are all examples of designs which have persisted despite being clearly antiquated, obsolete, and inferior. But, hey, they kept selling cars, so there is/was no compelling urge for the manufacturer to update. {As evidence of this, a buddy of mine manages an Enterprise rent-a-car location, and to this day their Cherokees (non-Grand) are best-sellers, renting out at something like $90 a day! Similarly-priced (MSRP) cars rent out for only $35-40 a day.}

And then, you have designs which, while arguably old, still soldier on successfully. How old was the Porsche 993 around? The last Mercedes SL class?

What I was trying to say was, simply, that a platform's age does not necessarily indicate how competitive it still is.

rammorris · October 2002

My lease on my current vehicle expires Nov. 1. I am looking to lease a 525i. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether I should spend less and get the 2002 as opposed to the 2003? Is it worth the price difference. Also, does anyone know if BMW will discount the 2002's once the 2003's hit the show room floors? Finally, I have heard that $1500 above dealer invoice is a reasonable price. Anyone agree? Disagree?

riez · October 2002

dzuba... Regardless of transmission choice, get the Sport Package! You won't regret it. Better tires. Nicer looking steering wheel. Better seats. Etc. And in the 540iA it gets you the 3.15:1 final drive versus the standard 2.82:1 final drive. Increases acceleration. (The shorter final drive is usually one of the first things tuners like Dinan do to improve the performance of BMWs.) Unfortunately, believe the Sport Package gets you gas guzzler tax. Though the difference in mileage in the real world isn't much. So you might look for a low mile used CPO 540iA.

snagiel · October 2002

The differences between '02 and '03 models will be very minor. However, by November I suspect most dealers will already have sold most of their remaining '02 inventories, so any savings to be had will be offset by a narrow choice of colors and options. Any '02 vehicles you do see in November, I'd expect to be able to buy at just above dealer price ($500-1000 over). And, yes, $1500 over is a good target price for new models, but in certain geographic markets that's still difficult to find (correlating mainly to greedy dealers without competition in the area).

rammorris · October 2002

This post is for riez and snagiel. Both of you were very helpful. I pulled the trigger today and leased a 525iA with premium and sport package, as well as Xenon headlights. The sport package was not originally in my budget, but I decided it was worth the extra money. Thanks riez for the advice. Snagiel, you were absolutely right on target about the '02's. They were thin. Had I waited, I would not have gotten the color I wanted (sterling gray) without searching availability at other dealerships. I paid $42,000 even, which was lower than what Edmunds calculated the TMV to be in my area code (Houston, Tx), but in hindsight I believe I might have shaved an additional $500 off had I stuck it out. Oh well... I am happy. Again, thanks for the good guidance.

riez · October 2002

rammorris... You'll love it. Just take care of her. After you have signed the papers, don't worry about the deal. Just prepare to enjoy the driving! What were the lease terms? Residual? Quarantee buy price at expiration?

snagiel · October 2002

You're welcome. Don't sweat any additional savings you might have wrung out; I paid $2500 over (I was in a somewhat unique scenario), but nevertheless I felt it was reasonable. My car (530i) has been the most sublime and inspiring vehicle I've ever owned, and--knock on wood--has rolled by nearly 11k miles now without any real problems. I'm sure you'll experience similar joy from your car, and find the sport package worthwhile on every decreasing-radius turn you choose to take at twice the suggested speed limit.

nyccarguy · October 2002

congrats on your new car! Like others are saying...once you start driving the car, you'll forget about the $500.

ghomaz · October 2002

Thanks for your advice.

linard · October 2002

I guess individual vehicle differences played a role in our differing numbers for 0-60 times. I found a time of 6.1 for the 540iA. But then again, when it comes down to 5.8 or 6.1, that's pretty darn fast.

stl540 · October 2002

dzuba...I have a 2002 540iA with sport package. I got the auto because my wife will also drive the 540i (~10% of time) and she does not drive or care to drive a manual. I really wanted a manual.

The 540iA with sport package is an amazing car. I would prefer a manual tranny, but I love the drive of my 540iA. The SP offered many features that I desired; lower final drive, excellent sport seats, black trim (much better than the standard chrome), wider and lower profile sport tires, better looking steering wheel. I HIGHLY recommend the sport package.

The 540iA SP has a $1300 gas guzzler tax. As much as I hated to pay it, I would not want the 540i w/o the SP. Test drive both cars, SP and no SP. The SP will probably sell itself.

The car has strong acceleration at any speed.

btw...I got my 2002 540iA in May 2002 for $2500 over invoice.

bartalk2 · October 2002

The Oct. 7 issue of "Automotive News" has a computer-generated picture of the '04 5 series. Not dramaticallly different looking from the current model. Caption reads: "The new 5 series will be wider and taller and will ride on a longer wheelbase. The trunk--the feature that really steamed the 7-series critics--is expected to be taller and larger."

bartalk2 · October 2002

Don't know whether this has been mentioned, but '03 prices on the 525 and 530 are up about $700 from '02, comparably equipped with premium package. Base price has gone up, but now includes sun roof, premium package has gone down. Net change: +$700.

riez · October 2002

Latest issue of Roundel magazine (BMW CCA) has an interesting article, with nice chart, showing the actual dollar difference (read: increase!) between 2002 and 2003 base prices. For all BMWs and Mini sold in USA. They also compute the percentage difference. They note the additional equipment in some lines (e.g., standard sunroof and rear HPS in 5 Series models). Roundel notes, with disappointment, that these price increases are bigger than last year's in most cases.

They also have an interesting article discussing sales changes in various models during the current MY. They note that overall BMW sales have plateaued but that overall figures are up primarily due to Mini. BMW sales started softening late spring 2002.

ajrose · October 2002

A local dealer from whom I have purchased several cars and have been treated well has an 02 540i 6sp CPO with 4500 miles, color (sterling grey, grey interior) and options (warm weather, upgraded stereo, shades) are fine, priced at $52,750. A comparable 03 would cost $5-6,000 more. While money is money, thankfully, I can afford either.

The extended warranty on the CPO is a real plus but I would appreciate some feedback on the changes, i.e. will the 18 inch tires on the 03 cause a material change in handling, will the black head liner make the interior feel too small, etc.

Thanks in advance for comments.

snagiel · October 2002

I would go with the '03. For one, I prefer the M5 bumper treatment, the 18" wheels, as well as the even tighter suspension tuning over the '02 models. Unless you drive on Detroit-esque roads, I don't think the ride would be too harsh. And, if I could afford it, I much prefer a new car over a used one, bar none. And I'd be skeptical over a car returned after only 4500 miles.

mseals · October 2002

That does seem low, but if they can be verified, then I would go for the 02. The price difference you see sounds like Depreciation. Let someone else take that for you and then get the car that really has barely broke in.

pap5 · October 2002

If possible, I would contact the owner of the '02 to ask why he unloaded it so quickly, and also to ask how rigorously he followed breakin recommendations. I recall that some clown bragged either here or on the 3 series board that his habit was to buy BMWs thru ED, drive the crap out of them, then flip them quickly at no financial loss. Even a thorough CPO inspection would not detect the compromises to long-term durability that could result.

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