Thanks a lot. As always, you guys are of tremendous help. Must have missed the earlier post. I'm anxious to use this new cutting edge phone with the equally cutting edge car. My second LS 430. For the record, I previously owned a 7 series (it was a maintenance nightmare) and just pick up an '05 Carrera. The Porsche is a great fun car, but I always enjoy getting back in the Lexus. It isn't just the comfort or reliability. It's just that everything works so intuitively (except the darn phone!!). The Carrera nav system is serious work.
Hi Brewer10, Wow a rare BMW convert..I'm sure you're reading the posts in the High End Luxury Marques board..What was your experience like with the 7 Series compared with the LS430? Is there really a "Huge" difference in the driving dynamics of the two? I've never driven a BMW but some on other board would have you believe the LS drives like a bus compared the 7 Series..
FWIW, I have a friend who bought the new 7 Series last year. She had a Lexus GS and prior BMWs. They still have an ancient BMW they kept in the family and reunite with it when they visit family.
For her, the deciding difference was the steering wheel. She preferred the leather wrapped BMW. Said nothing about the difference in ride. I've ridden in it but it has been a year ago, so can't compare. Perhaps I should give her a call and ask to drive it . . .
Again I note a negative reference to the wood steering wheel. Add me to the list of people who really dislike (probably should say HATE) the wood wheel. To me, it is pure cosmetics at the expense of functionality-- kind of helps make the case for the German car aficionados who disdain the LS's "driving experience". Lexus corporate, if you are reading these boards, please DUMP THE WOOD STEERING WHEEL-- or at least somehow make it a dealer-installed option!
Believe me, I was a life long owner of BMW's and the 7 series was my ultimate dream, which essentially turned into a nightmare. Owned it for 9 months and had it in the shop 8 different times. Replaced the tires, the radio, the seat controls, the differential plus numerous electrical glitches. With regard to handling the differences for me were more sensory than actual. The Lexus does feel "looser" i.e. not as much feedback in the steering, a bit less communication from the brakes, and a little more body lean. But in practical terms I think the actual differences were significantly less. I drive fairly aggressively and I never had the Lexus rear end break loose any sooner than the Bimmer or experienced any remarkably different dynamics. As I said the Lexus hangs pretty close...it just doesn't feel as easy to manage as the Bimmer. However, for me (and I suspect for many on this board) the opportunities to throw a car around are relatively infrequent. And as noted above, there is no comparison with regard to reliability. Maybe a final word. I love technology (as evidenced by my purchase of the Treo and countless other gadgets) so i-drive or the Nav on the Porsche aren't daunting or in anyway intimidating. I just think if two devices do the same thing, why should one be so complicated while the other be so intuitive. Technology should make lives easier, not more complicated. I won't likely abandon the LS 430. But the SC will have to get a lot better before I'd consider it over the 911.
I forgot to mention in my post #6987 that my friend was deciding between an '04 7 Series BMW and an '04 LS 430.
I did buy an '05 LS430 in December and didn't give a thought about the steering wheel. My friend chose the BMW 7 Series a year ago over the LS because she knew the LS type steering wheels get awfully hot and cold, compared to leather wrapped ones. I never thought about it, am finished with European cars, personally, and was not interested in a BMW. (After two Volvo$, the $wedi$h honeymoon i$ over and I'm only driving Japanese from now on for reliability and minimal repairs records. Our Avalon was wonderful. . . but I digress)
She was proved right when I was on a recent trip. The steering wheel on my LS was like ice cubes to my bare hands in the morning with temps of 27°F. Now I'm thinking that in the summer I'll need to drape a towel over it when I'm at the golf course and it sits in the sun for 5 or 6 hours (lunch afterwards, of course.)
I can get an extended warrantee from Lexus that extends it to 100000 miles for about $2400.
I was just wondering if the resale value of the car in two years with about 70000 miles would be increased enough with the warrantee to make it worth getting.
I still prefer the wood steering wheels, and feel a car without one feels cheaper now that I've had them. Temperature notwithstanding. I don't really notice any discomfort, frankly. I have learned quite easily to use the leather parts of the wheel until it cools down.
famwald How does your '05 LS430 compare to your Avalon? We are looking at the LS430 and where somewhat disappointing that the LS430 was not significantly quieter in terms of road noise intruding into the interior when compared to our Avalon. In addition, the ride was not significantly smoother over rough roads. We plan on taking a longer test drive to get more of a feel for the car.
Temperature issues aside, which would you rather hold when your hands are slightly sweaty: a slick wood wheel or a padded leather wheel?
I remember back when steering wheels were plastic, and it was a big deal to buy a custom leather wrap kit and stitch that sucker around the wheel yourself. The result not only looked better and felt better, but gave more control. When I could finally afford a car that came with a real leather wheel, that was the bomb!
Hmmm, does anyone know where I can buy a custom leather wrap kit for a '05 LS? ;-)
Sweaty hands? Haven't noticed. Perhaps I am immune from that issue, but I love the look and the feel of the wood, and if the car came both ways, I'd opt for the wood wheel. If two different cars were being considered, and they were largely the equal in my mind, the one with the wood wheel may get the nod all else being equal. It's that big a deal to me. But hey, YMMV....... I would never put a cover on mine.
Be sure you test drive the LS with 17" wheels. I found much difference in ride and noise. Big fan of Avalon, owned two, personally don't think the 2005 is as quite as the previous model. Really wanted to like that car, but bought a 2005 LS430 after deciding against the Avalon.
Helmar, $2400 sounds like alot to me..Have you shopped around for this quote? I paid $1200-1500 for the Certification..In fact Certification usually seems to add around $1K to the car's value at tradein.
Note that this warranty may exclude the NAV screen, which is probably the most likely thing to break. Be careful and read the exclusions before signing anything. If anything the warranty's worth can be judged from a piece of mind point of view.
You may want to keep the $2400 in the bank and set it aside for any potential problems..Even if the NAV screen breaks, I doubt it will be anything more than 1K to repair it. These cars usually only need fluid changes until about 90K. I didn't have any issues with my '92 until 90K (12 yrs old at the time..Even those issues were wear related items like bushings and shocks..)
<<<How does your '05 LS430 compare to your Avalon?>>>
Much nicer. What year is your Avalon?
When I first test drove the '05 LS I complained to the salesman that the ride was too soft; too smooth. ("couchmobile") He looked at me like I was crazy. The '05 has a new shock absorption system....all explained at lexus.com website.
Next, I test drove a few used LSs from '04 and back and the ride is not as smooth---it is more the ride I was accustomed to in our old Avalon. The only reason I didn't buy a used LS was they had none with heated seats (a major requirement for me....I'm spoiled and wear a lot of jackets in winter instead of long coats.)
Our Avalon was a '98 with 92k miles on it. A very reliable car. In all that time we only changed the oil, replaced the tires, and I put a new waterpump on in Sept '04. We gave our Avalon to our son when I bought the LS (his car died) and have only ridden in it once since then, since he lives 200 miles away.
The Avalon was always nicer ride than my former '98 Volvo XCV70 with 52k miles on it. (I got the Avalon when DH bought his BMW, and I unloaded that Volvo) I had driven Volvo wagons for 15 years and was accustomed (and enjoyed) the European 'ride.' I had an '84 Chev. Caprice Classic station wagon before that.
Our '05 LS has 17" tires (at my insistence) and we notice a difference in the ride and quietness, IMHO, from our old Avalon and its 15" tires---the LS is better.
My point of reference is our '03 BMW 530i. I never noticed much difference between it and the Avalon as far as 'ride' goes. Now that I've been driving the LS since late Dec., riding in the BMW is like a sports car. I feel every bump, hear the engine, the tailpipes/muffler, etc.; things I never noticed before. My husband loves to drive the LS, and then he reeealllyyy loves to get the in BMW and have his 'sportscar' experience. He didn't feel that way when we had the Avalon/BMW duo.
When I rode in our old Avalon a few weeks ago during a visit with our son, I could tell the difference. You have to remember, though, it is a '98 with 92k miles on it, original shocks & struts, and we weren't complaining.
I was hoping to be able to wait until the '05 Avalons came out this spring before I bought a new car, but our son's car died at Christmas and the game plan was to give him the Avalon by Summer '05. Life was "FastForwarded" by 6 months, I had to have a new car, my choices were limited at that time. My husband really disliked the styling of the recent Avalons and it wasn't worth the fight. (We wives have to pick our battles wisely, right guys? LOL!)
Test drive both, and often if necessary. The new Avalon has a lot of the same features the LS has. ~sigh~
If you have the luxury of time on your side, see if you can lease or rent both cars for a couple of weeks. It's a small investment compared to the massive price difference. Toyota gives better deals on Avalons than our Lexus dealer does.
I paid right at the Edmunds TMV price for our LS; our dealer has no competition inside 200 mi. and I needed something immediately, so I was willing to buckle in the negotiations. No complaining here, though, because I didn't care for my other options on Dec. 27th. Gone are the days of $600 over invoice if you want a Lexus in our area. (I buy all the cars in our family.....)
One thing I have noticed about an 'upgrade' of any sort (cars, computers, athletic shoes, etc.): sometimes we don't notice how nice it is until we go back to the old mode of whatever. For example, going from a dial-up modem to broadband ISP didn't seem *that* much faster connection speed to me until I had to use the former system again.
Maybe my 01 ultra is different then other LS 430s but I have a wood steering wheel that has leather at the 3 and 9, 0'Clock positions...(the places where is it recommended to hold the wheel...
On the other hand ..I really like Wood ..I have not live in a Very hot area but have traveled in Arazona and didn't find a hot steering wheel a problem...
Aside from a bunch of hacked flashes, apparently Verizon has released a new firmware that fixes some problems and creates others. Apparently the BMW owners are pleased but the Prius owners are not. Anyone with an LS do this yet and able to report what features better function?
michael, the '05 steering wheels are made the same as your '01, but mine has leather at 8 and 4 o'clock. Same difference, I'm sure.
I was taught to drive on a manual transmission back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, "three on the tree" we called it, and was told to keep my left hand between 10 and 11 o'clock for maximum control while shifting gears, and while turning if needed. One did not argue with my father.
Some habits die hard over the decades. That's why, when backing up the car, or on hard turn, the frozen state of the wood steering wheel from a 27°F overnight low in a motel parking lot was a shock. Our cars are garaged at home, so early morning temps really don't mean anything to us.
Sometimes I still go for a clutch pedal on fast brake stops,and have not driven manual transmission in 30 years. Thus, I regularly am using that wood upper half of the steering wheel, out of an old habit that has not gone away.
Personally, I like the tactile feel of the smooth wood surface, but I have no real preference to date over this or leather. I had leather from '89 until Dec. '04.
I really think Lexus has satisified both camps..I also love the feel of the Wood but it does get slippery sometimes in the summer ...When or if it does I can go down to the Leather...Same if it's cold (never that cold in Washington but I once lived in CT)
AS USUAL LEXUS HAS THOUGHT OF EVERYTHING
It is probable I learned to drive about when you did in the late 50s for me.
Thanks so much for your reply. We have a 2000 Avalon and have had no problems. We do plan on renting a LS 430 for a few days or borrowing one for a few hours from our local dealer. We both have followed this car for a number of years and have read all the glowing reviews. Maybe our expectations were set too high. I know this might sound silly but based on all the reviews we really expected “living room” quiet on the freeway and a silky smooth ride even on rough roads. Our test ride was on a busy 5-lane freeway and the truck, car, and wind noise were more noticeable than expected. This did not match the “whisper quiet” comments that are common in reviews for the LS.
We have noticed that auto reviews do not use a consistent set of criteria when assessing the interior noise level of cars. Some reviewers will note a certain level of noise but say something like “the noise was not bothersome”. Some magazines like Road and Track due assess interior noise levels using a sound meter. In a 2001 review, R&T measured the interior noise level of the Lexus LS 430 at 71 dBA at 70 mph. A typical living room is around 40 dBA. In the auto luxury class, the LS 430 interior noise level is on the high side. Mercedes and BMW have achieved numbers in the middle 64-66 dBA range.
Obviously, some people enjoy the sound of their cars. In our case, we spend a lot of time on So. Cal. freeways, which are increasingly populated with loud trucks, cars and motorcycles. A true measure of a luxury car, in our opinion, is one, which completely insulates you from the noise of the typical road environment. For safety reason, complete isolation is not practical but how about a 60 dBA goal.
something that would be fun...If you know anyone in the insurance claims business...(The claims dept of a big ins. company) they will often have a device that measures dBAs...or anyone who measures noise levels..Someone tests that stuff at airports and concerts etc.
I once tested a car I owned but don't remember the results.
I would be wary of relying too much on dBA measurements by the autorags. For one thing, you don't know if tests on various cars at different times might have been done with different meters that might not have been properly calibrated. For another, you don't know if the meter/microphone was placed in a consistent place within the vehicle...for instance, in one car it may have been put in the passenger seat, while in another car it might have been put on the floor by a different test driver.
imho the best test is with your own ears, in back to back test drives.
Renting an LS430 for a week or so sounds intriguing. I've been an ardent BMW man for the last 12 years and would really love to try the LS on for size. The normal test drive with a salesperson next to me really doesn't do it. dorothyk-would you know how I could rent one? Would Lexus dealers be the place to ask? Thank you. hpowders
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I have been trying to test drive an LS430 with the European Suspension option for about a year now. My local dealer's response is that if I give them a deposit they will order one and if I dont like it I dont have to buy it. Well I really would prefer to drive one first. Basically I am looking for a car with the size and luxury of the LS, but the performance of a BMW. The local BMW dealer's service department is terrible, so I refuse to give them my money. Has anyone driven the LS with the Sport suspension and other cars like the BMW 545? Is it even close? I drove the Mercedes E500 and it definitely does not have enough performance. If the LS is comparable it will not cut it. Thanks.
tom : the ls 430 is in a class by itself . as the owner of many since 1989(1990 model), i would easily argue there is no way to compare it's size and hardware to an e 500 , bimmer 5 series , or anything in that size category . your lexus dealer has made you a " fair offer " lexus dealers are in their own " class " . the last thing lexus people want is trouble . they are the number one in satisfaction . like they said : if you don't like what you ordered , don't buy it . the lexus dealers sell every lexus they can get ; and they sell quickly . if you don't want it , someone else will . if it's in your means to try , there's no reason to be afraid . no i have not driven an " 05 with the optional suspension system . mitchell
Tom17: I live in Southern California, and there are several Lexus dealers. A request like yours is perfectly reasonable, and you would have no difficulty in finding a dealer in Southern California who would let you test drive the LS 430 with the sports suspension. Competition is a wonderful thing. I presume that there are not too many Lexus dealers where you are located. I agree with Mitchellrowe that the LS is an excellent vehicle, but it does not drive like a BMW or Mercedes, even with the sport suspension. My two cents worth.
I was told by a So.Cal. dealer that '05 LS430 is not yet shipping with Sports Suspension system. Don't know if its true.
I have a E320 and the LS does not drive/handle/ride like the E Class. If you really want the German driving dynamnics, then you will be disappointed. As for me, the '05 is not as soft or disconnected to the road as I was lead to believe by various reviews. Frankly, I think the LS is pretty right on as for its balance on ride quality and handling. The LS can be driven hard, but it is just not the same as the Germans (nor was it was designed that way in the first place). Overall, the LS is wonderfully luxurious, and it fells just about as solid as the Germans.
On a different note, I have an issue with comparing the LS to an Avalon. While the Avalon is a fine car (we also have one in the family), Avalon is simply not in the same league as the LS. The LS is far superior in almost every aspect. As for interior noise, I recall that in other discussion topic, some one posted data that showed a particular model of Kia was as quiet or if not more quiet than some luxury cars at highway speed. The bottom line is that just because these cars are all pretty quiet, I would not compare a Kia to an Avolon as I would definately not compare an Avalon to the LS. At best, the Avalon is only comparable to an ES330 (except for interior roominess).
Had a strange occurance this a.m. with my '04 LS430 while backing out of my garage. We had a fair amount of rain last night followed by dropping temps and dusting of snow which left a icy covering on my flat driveway made of concrete. I have Dunlop Winter Sport M3's on the LS and have had great luck on snow.
I backed out slowly as normal and begin a turn to the right to be able to pull foward and head down the driveway incline to the street. Pushed on the brake while barely moving and couldn't get the car to stop sliding.. Pushed harder on the break and began to hear one tire begin to spin out of control leaving a large black mark on the ground. Threw the transmission into neutral to stop the tire spin. Put car into Drive and had same experience going forward, spinning tire that wouldn't stop spinning even with foot on the brake. This several times both in reverse and drive. Finally got my spouse, bless her, to come outside and throw down salt from the edge of the garage so I could get some grip and head down the drive. Roads were fine, just my driveway section was icy. Not too worried about what happened but don't understand why when I pressed on brake the tires seemed to accelerate uncontrollably.
I had a similar experience last week. Going up an icy/slushy incline into my office's 2nd floor parking garage, my '05 LS couldn't stop spinning the wheels, even when not giving it any gas. I finally resolved it by turning off the "Trac" button-- even though this seems counter-intuitive. This leads me to believe it is the programming of the Traction Control, which is designed to transfer power to the other rear wheel when one rear wheel is slipping; maybe when both wheels are on ice, the system goes crazy?
Do you folks further up north (I'm outside of DC) experience this frequently? Do owners regularly turn off TRAC when it is icy?
That does seem backwards but maye others have had more experience on ice this year with theirs. Thanks, just for confirming I am not as crazy on this as spouse believes.
This isn't a really new problem for Toyota. Their Sequoia has had these similar problems since inception. Car & Driver reported it was their only SUV to get good and stuck in mud in their comparo a couple of years ago - attributed to their so-called Traction control.
My 2005 LS appears to have all the set up for the satellite radio from the sat button on the radio to an antenna (I think). Dealer is quoting $850 to add the remainder of the system. This seems high and not worth it at this price. Any suggestions or experiences in getting the cost down?
We rented our Lexus RX330 for a few days before purchasing the vehicle. I was concerned about the size and whether we would be happy with an SUV.
In Southern California, you can rent both the RX330 and LS430 at Budget Car Rental. The website is: http://www.budgetbeverlyhills.com/ The RX330s are really popular but the LS 430 is usually available. You can even rent a Rolls Royce Phantom for just $3000/day or $18,000/week (chauffeur not included)
The prices are not cheap ($276/day for the LS 430) but in this price range, second thoughitis can be very painful. Since we have brought several cars from our local dealer, they are willing to provide a car for a few hours. Unfortunately, there are probably very few rental companies offering the LS 430 for rental outside of major cities.
Thanks very much for this valuable information. Renting an LS430 at "Budget". You've got to love it! I'm in the Tampa area and will investigate. I'll pass on the Rolls for now. Thanks again! Regards, hpowders
Hpowers: Did you find a LS 430 for rent in the Tampa Bay area? I live there also and would like to try one before trading my much loved LS 400 for the newer model.
Interesting story by aggie76, but very puzzling when read carefully. First the driveway is "flat", then he heads "down the driveway incline to the street". Then he pushes hard on the brake and a tire spins enough to mark the ground. What was happening to the throttle at this time? Did the transmission have to go into neutral because the engine was spinning a wheel without throttle pressure? We don't have any ideas what happened until the facts are straight.
On March 1, 2005, cove148 said: My 2005 LS appears to have all the set up for the satellite radio from the sat button on the radio to an antenna (I think). Dealer is quoting $850 to add the remainder of the system. This seems high and not worth it at this price. Any suggestions or experiences in getting the cost down?
My understanding is that the 05 LS cannot have XM installed at the factory - it can only be a dealer-installed option. I think that your roof-mounted antenna is for the GPS only - the XM antenna is another module that is clipped to the top of your trunk lid (and it's ugly).
The current cost problem stems from the 5 hours (FIVE HOURS!) of labor that it takes to install the XM module in a Lexus. If it makes you feel any better, my local dealer quoted $900.
Reportedly, the 06 LS will have factory-installed XM, and the cost should be more in line with other auto brands. My dealer said that Lexus had only recently signed an agreement to offer factory-installed XM. I wonder if this also applies to OnStar?
Ok, my drive has about a 3% slope from the street up over about 80 feet to a landing area where I enter my 3-car garage with its side-entry area by turning to the right. The concrete in this landing area has 0% slope for my kids basketball playing area, this is about 40' wide by about 25' deep. I park my LS in the single car garage area which is the farthest away from the street by pulling directly into the spot. I back out, gently turning the wheel so the rear of the car turns to the drivers side, then pull ahead to the right to align myself with the 2 1/2 car wide driveway to leave my property.
I applied normal throttle to back out of the garage, then gently depressed the brake to stop the car. The car continued to move backwards on the ice and then the tire began spinning at high rpm. I was not touching the throttle at all as I use my right foot for both brake and throttle. I placed the transmission in neutral and only then did the wheel stop spinning. This happened on two occasions going in reverse and two occasions going forward.
Didn't mean to mislead folks but also didn't want to write a book. Seems from everything I am hearing from folks is this has to do with the TRAC system and how it try's to gain control on ice.
aggie76 - I want to thank you for your detailed description of your 'spinout'. We do get the occasional ice & snow in our area, mild slope upward from garage to street, and I will remember your post (and all related info shared here) for our next big freeze, and know what to watch out for.
This sounds rather scary to me. What does the Service Technician at your Lexus dealer say about this?
I was taught, with my first automatic transmission car (back when dinosaurs *still* roamed the earth) to shift into Neutral for maximum control of the car when braking on snow and/or ice. Thus the transmission is disengaged and no chance of a wheel spinning. Back then, the theory was the transmission was not fighting the brakes. I don't know if it made sense from a mechanical standpoint, but it always worked for me. Perhaps just a false sense of security?
I have since been told (in the last 15 years) that is nonsense. Perhaps not 'nonsense' at all with the VSC on the LS.
Nothing yet. I think the best thing to do is find a willing dealer-even if it costs a few hundred bucks for 24 hours. Believe me I won't be home that day.
I forgot where you are located - but Ray Catena Lexus let me take the LX470 for a weekend when I was thinking of leasing it. I wanted to make sure it would fit right in my garage. They just said take it, make sure your wife likes it and bring it back on Monday.
No charge? Surely they maxed out your credit card as a "deposit." I would leave my BMW there as collateral. By the way, did you end up leasing this vehicle from Ray Catena? I will probably e-mail all the Lexus dealers around Tampa-3 of them-and request a weekend drive of the LS 430. Won't be home much that weekend! Thanks. Regards, hpowders
Had my first trip in snow with my LS and had no issues. Was worried at first that it did not have all wheel drive but I drove like I always do in snow, slowly and deliberately and it handled it just fine. On the other hand, I saw some SUVs ripping along at high speeds and just had to shake my head. Thinking about it, I learned to drive in snow before things like ABS, traction control etc. With all of these tech innovations today's cars, even rear wheel drive, have to be much safer than cars 15-25 years ago.
No charge. They just made a copy of my license but I never even signed a piece of paper. Remember I was an existing customer and they knew me. It was one of the manager's trucks. I am sure they will let you have the car for a few hours at a minimum to see if you want it. In 2001 when the car was red hot they didn't have any around so then it was impossible, but these are ordinary times. Hey - you can't lose anything by asking.
Hey ljflx. Took your advice. Spoke to a dealer in Sarasota this morning and no problem-tomorrow I will be driving an LS 430 from 8am to 4pm. No charge. He asked me what I am currently driving and when I told him a BMW, he asked me if I would be interested in a 2006 GS 430 instead but after reading so many negative reviews on the GS thread including the Edmunds comparo regarding the touchy brakes-I told him I would pass on that. After the LS, I will see if my BMW dealer will cooperate and give me extended test drives of the X5 and 545. Thank you very much! Regards, hpowders
I believe it's worth the price. The antenna you are remarking about is probably the antenna that sits above the back window. I believe this antenna was once used for the "Lexus Link" system that is no longer offered. The antenna for the XM is placed on the trunk lid and is about 2 1/2 inches square and black. They first installed it on the side of the trunk and I complained and they later moved it to the middle. When I upgraded/traded cars from 2004 to 2005, they transferred the XM for free as a part of the trade. The Toyota XM receiver is placed in the trunk under the floor and the read out is through the Nav/Audio system. The XM has three dedicated screens with six stations each. The sound is as good as the CD which I rarely play after the XM was installed. The alternative is for you to purchase an aftermarket kit that requires a separate XM tuning face to be placed somewhere on the dash with tape or something. I didn't want the aftermarket folk messing with the Lexus radio and wiring their XM into it. With that in mind, I waited until the 2004 model LS430 and got the factory authorized installation. Works great.
Hey dbc123. Try Wilde Lexus of Sarasota. Tomorrow I have an extended test drive from 8am 'til 4pm. Just hope the dealer doesn't give me a comprehensive presentation about the car that ends around noon! Regards, hpowders
Comments
Again, thanks and keep up the great posts.
Wow a rare BMW convert..I'm sure you're reading the posts in the High End Luxury Marques board..What was your experience like with the 7 Series compared with the LS430? Is there really a "Huge" difference in the driving dynamics of the two? I've never driven a BMW but some on other board would have you believe the LS drives like a bus compared the 7 Series..
SV
FWIW, I have a friend who bought the new 7 Series last year. She had a Lexus GS and prior BMWs. They still have an ancient BMW they kept in the family and reunite with it when they visit family.
For her, the deciding difference was the steering wheel. She preferred the leather wrapped BMW. Said nothing about the difference in ride. I've ridden in it but it has been a year ago, so can't compare. Perhaps I should give her a call and ask to drive it . . .
Believe me, I was a life long owner of BMW's and the 7 series was my ultimate dream, which essentially turned into a nightmare. Owned it for 9 months and had it in the shop 8 different times. Replaced the tires, the radio, the seat controls, the differential plus numerous electrical glitches. With regard to handling the differences for me were more sensory than actual. The Lexus does feel "looser" i.e. not as much feedback in the steering, a bit less communication from the brakes, and a little more body lean. But in practical terms I think the actual differences were significantly less. I drive fairly aggressively and I never had the Lexus rear end break loose any sooner than the Bimmer or experienced any remarkably different dynamics. As I said the Lexus hangs pretty close...it just doesn't feel as easy to manage as the Bimmer. However, for me (and I suspect for many on this board) the opportunities to throw a car around are relatively infrequent. And as noted above, there is no comparison with regard to reliability. Maybe a final word. I love technology (as evidenced by my purchase of the Treo and countless other gadgets) so i-drive or the Nav on the Porsche aren't daunting or in anyway intimidating. I just think if two devices do the same thing, why should one be so complicated while the other be so intuitive. Technology should make lives easier, not more complicated. I won't likely abandon the LS 430. But the SC will have to get a lot better before I'd consider it over the 911.
Cheers and happy motoring.
I did buy an '05 LS430 in December and didn't give a thought about the steering wheel. My friend chose the BMW 7 Series a year ago over the LS because she knew the LS type steering wheels get awfully hot and cold, compared to leather wrapped ones. I never thought about it, am finished with European cars, personally, and was not interested in a BMW. (After two Volvo$, the $wedi$h honeymoon i$ over and I'm only driving Japanese from now on for reliability and minimal repairs records. Our Avalon was wonderful. . . but I digress)
She was proved right when I was on a recent trip. The steering wheel on my LS was like ice cubes to my bare hands in the morning with temps of 27°F. Now I'm thinking that in the summer I'll need to drape a towel over it when I'm at the golf course and it sits in the sun for 5 or 6 hours (lunch afterwards, of course.)
I plan on keeping it for 2 more years.
I can get an extended warrantee from Lexus that extends it to 100000 miles for about $2400.
I was just wondering if the resale value of the car in two years with about 70000 miles would be increased enough with the warrantee to make it worth getting.
Any thoughts?
I remember back when steering wheels were plastic, and it was a big deal to buy a custom leather wrap kit and stitch that sucker around the wheel yourself. The result not only looked better and felt better, but gave more control. When I could finally afford a car that came with a real leather wheel, that was the bomb!
Hmmm, does anyone know where I can buy a custom leather wrap kit for a '05 LS? ;-)
$2400 sounds like alot to me..Have you shopped around for this quote? I paid $1200-1500 for the Certification..In fact Certification usually seems to add around $1K to the car's value at tradein.
Note that this warranty may exclude the NAV screen, which is probably the most likely thing to break. Be careful and read the exclusions before signing anything. If anything the warranty's worth can be judged from a piece of mind point of view.
You may want to keep the $2400 in the bank and set it aside for any potential problems..Even if the NAV screen breaks, I doubt it will be anything more than 1K to repair it. These cars usually only need fluid changes until about 90K. I didn't have any issues with my '92 until 90K (12 yrs old at the time..Even those issues were wear related items like bushings and shocks..)
Hope this Helps,
SV
Much nicer. What year is your Avalon?
When I first test drove the '05 LS I complained to the salesman that the ride was too soft; too smooth. ("couchmobile") He looked at me like I was crazy. The '05 has a new shock absorption system....all explained at lexus.com website.
Next, I test drove a few used LSs from '04 and back and the ride is not as smooth---it is more the ride I was accustomed to in our old Avalon. The only reason I didn't buy a used LS was they had none with heated seats (a major requirement for me....I'm spoiled and wear a lot of jackets in winter instead of long coats.)
Our Avalon was a '98 with 92k miles on it. A very reliable car. In all that time we only changed the oil, replaced the tires, and I put a new waterpump on in Sept '04. We gave our Avalon to our son when I bought the LS (his car died) and have only ridden in it once since then, since he lives 200 miles away.
The Avalon was always nicer ride than my former '98 Volvo XCV70 with 52k miles on it. (I got the Avalon when DH bought his BMW, and I unloaded that Volvo) I had driven Volvo wagons for 15 years and was accustomed (and enjoyed) the European 'ride.' I had an '84 Chev. Caprice Classic station wagon before that.
Our '05 LS has 17" tires (at my insistence) and we notice a difference in the ride and quietness, IMHO, from our old Avalon and its 15" tires---the LS is better.
My point of reference is our '03 BMW 530i. I never noticed much difference between it and the Avalon as far as 'ride' goes. Now that I've been driving the LS since late Dec., riding in the BMW is like a sports car. I feel every bump, hear the engine, the tailpipes/muffler, etc.; things I never noticed before. My husband loves to drive the LS, and then he reeealllyyy loves to get the in BMW and have his 'sportscar' experience. He didn't feel that way when we had the Avalon/BMW duo.
When I rode in our old Avalon a few weeks ago during a visit with our son, I could tell the difference. You have to remember, though, it is a '98 with 92k miles on it, original shocks & struts, and we weren't complaining.
I was hoping to be able to wait until the '05 Avalons came out this spring before I bought a new car, but our son's car died at Christmas and the game plan was to give him the Avalon by Summer '05. Life was "FastForwarded" by 6 months, I had to have a new car, my choices were limited at that time. My husband really disliked the styling of the recent Avalons and it wasn't worth the fight. (We wives have to pick our battles wisely, right guys? LOL!)
Test drive both, and often if necessary. The new Avalon has a lot of the same features the LS has. ~sigh~
If you have the luxury of time on your side, see if you can lease or rent both cars for a couple of weeks. It's a small investment compared to the massive price difference. Toyota gives better deals on Avalons than our Lexus dealer does.
I paid right at the Edmunds TMV price for our LS; our dealer has no competition inside 200 mi. and I needed something immediately, so I was willing to buckle in the negotiations. No complaining here, though, because I didn't care for my other options on Dec. 27th. Gone are the days of $600 over invoice if you want a Lexus in our area. (I buy all the cars in our family.....)
One thing I have noticed about an 'upgrade' of any sort (cars, computers, athletic shoes, etc.): sometimes we don't notice how nice it is until we go back to the old mode of whatever. For example, going from a dial-up modem to broadband ISP didn't seem *that* much faster connection speed to me until I had to use the former system again.
On the other hand ..I really like Wood ..I have not live in a Very hot area but have traveled in Arazona and didn't find a hot steering wheel a problem...
michael, the '05 steering wheels are made the same as your '01, but mine has leather at 8 and 4 o'clock. Same difference, I'm sure.
I was taught to drive on a manual transmission back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, "three on the tree" we called it, and was told to keep my left hand between 10 and 11 o'clock for maximum control while shifting gears, and while turning if needed. One did not argue with my father.
Some habits die hard over the decades. That's why, when backing up the car, or on hard turn, the frozen state of the wood steering wheel from a 27°F overnight low in a motel parking lot was a shock. Our cars are garaged at home, so early morning temps really don't mean anything to us.
Sometimes I still go for a clutch pedal on fast brake stops,and have not driven manual transmission in 30 years. Thus, I regularly am using that wood upper half of the steering wheel, out of an old habit that has not gone away.
Personally, I like the tactile feel of the smooth wood surface, but I have no real preference to date over this or leather. I had leather from '89 until Dec. '04.
I really think Lexus has satisified both camps..I also love the feel of the Wood but it does get slippery sometimes in the summer ...When or if it does I can go down to the Leather...Same if it's cold (never that cold in Washington but I once lived in CT)
AS USUAL LEXUS HAS THOUGHT OF EVERYTHING
It is probable I learned to drive about when you did in the late 50s for me.
We have noticed that auto reviews do not use a consistent set of criteria when assessing the interior noise level of cars. Some reviewers will note a certain level of noise but say something like “the noise was not bothersome”. Some magazines like Road and Track due assess interior noise levels using a sound meter. In a 2001 review, R&T measured the interior noise level of the Lexus LS 430 at 71 dBA at 70 mph. A typical living room is around 40 dBA. In the auto luxury class, the LS 430 interior noise level is on the high side. Mercedes and BMW have achieved numbers in the middle 64-66 dBA range.
Obviously, some people enjoy the sound of their cars. In our case, we spend a lot of time on So. Cal. freeways, which are increasingly populated with loud trucks, cars and motorcycles. A true measure of a luxury car, in our opinion, is one, which completely insulates you from the noise of the typical road environment. For safety reason, complete isolation is not practical but how about a 60 dBA goal.
something that would be fun...If you know anyone in the insurance claims business...(The claims dept of a big ins. company) they will often have a device that measures dBAs...or anyone who measures noise levels..Someone tests that stuff at airports and concerts etc.
I once tested a car I owned but don't remember the results.
imho the best test is with your own ears, in back to back test drives.
dorothyk-would you know how I could rent one? Would Lexus dealers be the place to ask?
Thank you.
hpowders
Summer tires will always, sometimes dramatically, result in a lower noise level inside the car.
~70db at typical highway cruise speed is the typical noise level in most modern day luxury vehicles, including the LS series.
Try and tell the difference between that expensive ML and the factory OEM system in those conditions.
NOT!
www.kirtlandpackard.com/v710
Has anyone driven the LS with the Sport suspension and other cars like the BMW 545? Is it even close? I drove the Mercedes E500 and it definitely does not have enough performance. If the LS is comparable it will not cut it.
Thanks.
your lexus dealer has made you a " fair offer "
lexus dealers are in their own " class " .
the last thing lexus people want is trouble . they are the number one in satisfaction . like they said : if you don't like what you ordered ,
don't buy it . the lexus dealers sell every lexus they can get ; and they sell quickly . if you don't want it , someone else will .
if it's in your means to try , there's no reason to be afraid . no i have not driven an " 05 with the optional suspension system .
mitchell
I live in Southern California, and there are several Lexus dealers. A request like yours is perfectly reasonable, and you would have no difficulty in finding a dealer in Southern California who would let you test drive the LS 430 with the sports suspension. Competition is a wonderful thing. I presume that there are not too many Lexus dealers where you are located. I agree with Mitchellrowe that the LS is an excellent vehicle, but it does not drive like a BMW or Mercedes, even with the sport suspension.
My two cents worth.
I have a E320 and the LS does not drive/handle/ride like the E Class. If you really want the German driving dynamnics, then you will be disappointed. As for me, the '05 is not as soft or disconnected to the road as I was lead to believe by various reviews. Frankly, I think the LS is pretty right on as for its balance on ride quality and handling. The LS can be driven hard, but it is just not the same as the Germans (nor was it was designed that way in the first place). Overall, the LS is wonderfully luxurious, and it fells just about as solid as the Germans.
On a different note, I have an issue with comparing the LS to an Avalon. While the Avalon is a fine car (we also have one in the family), Avalon is simply not in the same league as the LS. The LS is far superior in almost every aspect. As for interior noise, I recall that in other discussion topic, some one posted data that showed a particular model of Kia was as quiet or if not more quiet than some luxury cars at highway speed. The bottom line is that just because these cars are all pretty quiet, I would not compare a Kia to an Avolon as I would definately not compare an Avalon to the LS. At best, the Avalon is only comparable to an ES330 (except for interior roominess).
I backed out slowly as normal and begin a turn to the right to be able to pull foward and head down the driveway incline to the street. Pushed on the brake while barely moving and couldn't get the car to stop sliding.. Pushed harder on the break and began to hear one tire begin to spin out of control leaving a large black mark on the ground. Threw the transmission into neutral to stop the tire spin. Put car into Drive and had same experience going forward, spinning tire that wouldn't stop spinning even with foot on the brake. This several times both in reverse and drive. Finally got my spouse, bless her, to come outside and throw down salt from the edge of the garage so I could get some grip and head down the drive. Roads were fine, just my driveway section was icy. Not too worried about what happened but don't understand why when I pressed on brake the tires seemed to accelerate uncontrollably.
Any ideas out there on what happened?
Do you folks further up north (I'm outside of DC) experience this frequently? Do owners regularly turn off TRAC when it is icy?
It certainly does not sound like intended behavior.
Driver reported it was their only SUV to get good and stuck in mud in their comparo a couple of years ago - attributed to their so-called Traction control.
and not worth it at this price. Any suggestions or experiences in getting the cost down?
We rented our Lexus RX330 for a few days before purchasing the vehicle. I was concerned about the size and whether we would be happy with an SUV.
In Southern California, you can rent both the RX330 and LS430 at Budget Car Rental. The website is: http://www.budgetbeverlyhills.com/ The RX330s are really popular but the LS 430 is usually available. You can even rent a Rolls Royce Phantom for just $3000/day or $18,000/week (chauffeur not included)
The prices are not cheap ($276/day for the LS 430) but in this price range, second thoughitis can be very painful. Since we have brought several cars from our local dealer, they are willing to provide a car for a few hours. Unfortunately, there are probably very few rental companies offering the LS 430 for rental outside of major cities.
Thanks very much for this valuable information. Renting an LS430 at "Budget". You've got to love it!
I'm in the Tampa area and will investigate.
I'll pass on the Rolls for now.
Thanks again!
Regards,
hpowders
My understanding is that the 05 LS cannot have XM installed at the factory - it can only be a dealer-installed option. I think that your roof-mounted antenna is for the GPS only - the XM antenna is another module that is clipped to the top of your trunk lid (and it's ugly).
The current cost problem stems from the 5 hours (FIVE HOURS!) of labor that it takes to install the XM module in a Lexus. If it makes you feel any better, my local dealer quoted $900.
Reportedly, the 06 LS will have factory-installed XM, and the cost should be more in line with other auto brands. My dealer said that Lexus had only recently signed an agreement to offer factory-installed XM. I wonder if this also applies to OnStar?
I applied normal throttle to back out of the garage, then gently depressed the brake to stop the car. The car continued to move backwards on the ice and then the tire began spinning at high rpm. I was not touching the throttle at all as I use my right foot for both brake and throttle. I placed the transmission in neutral and only then did the wheel stop spinning. This happened on two occasions going in reverse and two occasions going forward.
Didn't mean to mislead folks but also didn't want to write a book. Seems from everything I am hearing from folks is this has to do with the TRAC system and how it try's to gain control on ice.
This sounds rather scary to me. What does the Service Technician at your Lexus dealer say about this?
I was taught, with my first automatic transmission car (back when dinosaurs *still* roamed the earth) to shift into Neutral for maximum control of the car when braking on snow and/or ice. Thus the transmission is disengaged and no chance of a wheel spinning. Back then, the theory was the transmission was not fighting the brakes. I don't know if it made sense from a mechanical standpoint, but it always worked for me. Perhaps just a false sense of security?
I have since been told (in the last 15 years) that is nonsense. Perhaps not 'nonsense' at all with the VSC on the LS.
Perhaps it bears pondering again.
Believe me I won't be home that day.
By the way, did you end up leasing this vehicle from Ray Catena?
I will probably e-mail all the Lexus dealers around Tampa-3 of them-and request a weekend drive of the LS 430.
Won't be home much that weekend!
Thanks.
Regards,
hpowders
He asked me what I am currently driving and when I told him a BMW, he asked me if I would be interested in a 2006 GS 430 instead but after reading so many negative reviews on the GS thread including the Edmunds comparo regarding the touchy brakes-I told him I would pass on that.
After the LS, I will see if my BMW dealer will cooperate and give me extended test drives of the X5 and 545.
Thank you very much!
Regards,
hpowders
Try Wilde Lexus of Sarasota. Tomorrow I have an extended test drive from 8am 'til 4pm. Just hope the dealer doesn't give me a comprehensive presentation about the car that ends around noon!
Regards,
hpowders