Toyota Camry 2006 and earlier

cliffy1 · June 2002

Contact other dealers by e-mail and get quotes. You need not buy the warranty from the selling dealer. There are dealers who can handle the entire transaction by e-mail.

alpha01 · June 2002

"Front & rear side curtain airbags would very little or nothing to the NHTSA test. Those types of airbags are meant for cushioning the head, and NHTSA does not even measure head injuries in their test. Part of the reason is that the barrier used in the NHTSA side-impact test is very low and doesn't do much up around the head. EuroNCAP side-impact testing does measure head injuries but typically shows no or low risks to the head when the vehicle is hit by >something relatively small"

I do not know if I agree with this statement. To my knowledge, the Lexus ES and Camry use similar if not the same, structural design... And the Lexus got 5 stars with the Head Curtain, while the Camry obviously managed only 2. If there is something to be said about the Head Curtain in this instance, more so than the cushioning factor, I think the restraint of motion factor may play a role.

In anycase, I'm wondering if we see NHTSA retest the Camry next year, without Toyota making any improvements, how that will go.... Anyone remember how the Avalon initially got only 3 stars for the driver in the frontal impact? Tested again the following year, with no changes (to my knowledge), the car earned 4 stars. Variences in the test itself and the vehicles can easily change ratings. I even remember one time when the IIHS had to retest a minivan because the impact speed was 40.4 MPH instead of 40, and this didnt give the car a fair shake.... but I digress, and theres no making excuses for 2 stars.

Cliffy, what are your thoughts on this? Is this going to be a problem for the dealers? Do you think it would be worth writing Toyota Motors a letter?

~alpha

wmquan · June 2002

"I do not know if I agree with this statement. To my knowledge, the Lexus ES and Camry use similar if not the same, structural design... And the Lexus got 5 stars with the Head Curtain, while the Camry obviously managed only 2."

I'm afraid it doesn't invalidate my contention that the side curtains add little to the NHTSA front side impact test. Please remember that the ES300 in the NHTSA side impact test was equipped with conventional, front-side air bags meant to protect around the chest (thoracic air bags). Whereas the Camry was not so equipped.

The side curtains are relatively high and do not do much for restraint of motion. Most of their padding is up around the head area, as that is what they intend to protect.

As I stated before, NHTSA does not use head-sensors in the dummies used in the side-impact test, unlike EuroNCAP, which does.

I don't mean to downplay the usefulness of side curtains, however. They do play a major role if one is hit by a taller vehicle, like an SUV or a minivan.

"To my knowledge, the Lexus ES and Camry use similar if not the same, structural design ..."

Let's hope that is true. But is it, really? Do we know for sure? Did Lexus add any additional structural members to improve handling and reduce body rigidity? Thus helping with side impact protection? Look at the Acura TL, which for years people have been assuming is just a dressed up Honda Accord EX V-6. Acura ended up adding some more structure to reduce body flex, and in so doing, significantly improved upon the Accord's IIHS offset frontal crash test score. I realize that's not the same as the side impact, but it shows how sometimes there are more differences than one might think.

"... but I digress, and theres no making excuses for 2 stars."

Sadly, I am in agreement with you here. With or without thoracic side airbags, or side curtains, there's no excuse.

cliffy1 · June 2002

I've stayed out of this one and probably will continue to do so. I do know that even with controlled testing, there are a huge number of variables involved. I've always viewed crash test information as a curiosity, even when the results supported Toyotas. An example of this was the off-set crash test on the Tundra. The Tundra was so far superior to any other truck tested, it was amazing. Because my views on testing are that of a skeptic, I never really used that as a selling point.

I honestly don't know the specifics involved in this particular test. I do know that a car tested one day can test completely differently another day. The same is true to EPA mileage estimates. I've seen those change by up to 4 MPG from one model year to the next without a single change to the engine or body.

Were I a consumer, I would look at this data and use it in a decision. I would NOT make it the only criteria by which to qualify or disqualify a particular car.

coolguyky7 · June 2002

Is it possible for Toyota to ask for a re-do?

wmquan · June 2002

Even if we allowed for some testing variability of, say, one-star, the Camry without side airbags can't be more than a three-star vehicle in front side-impacts. That's the same as the previous generation.

The previous-generation ES300 also tested significantly higher for side impacts than the previous-generation, non-side-airbag-equipped Camry. Even though the margin wasn't as large as it is this time around, it seems more like a consistent trend than a fluke here. If the trend holds up, the side-airbag equipped Camry would be 3-stars, perhaps even 4-stars. We'll have to wait until NHTSA tests the side-airbag-equipped version.

We should also know more whenever EuroNCAP performs its crash tests on the Camry.

wmquan · June 2002

"Is it possible for Toyota to ask for a re-do?"

Good question. I'm not sure what NHTSA's policies there are. I know that manufacturers can ask IIHS for a re-test.

Best way to find out is to ask them. I've emailed NHTSA-NCAP and will post back here if I get a response.

sam_beaver · June 2002

How do you know the car tested didn't have side airbags? Where on the report does it say that.

Also, what if anything can I assume about the safety of my own car, which DOES have side airbags?

wmquan · June 2002

When NHTSA lists their vehicles, they say "w/SAB" if the model tested had side airbags.

E.g. please see:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/NCAP/Cars/2002MidS.html

You'll notice that for vehicles that have side airbags optional, NHTSA will often test both versions, and note the ones with it with the "w/SAB" option. E.g. the Ford Taurus, Honda Accord, Mercury Sable, etc. are listed as being tested with the side airbags, and without.

I'm sure that NHTSA will eventually test the Camry version with the side airbags. Not sure when, though. And EuroNCAP will likely test the one with side airbags eventually too.

coolguyky7 · June 2002

Well if Toyota sees the 2 stars as a factor in sales (a very slight one surely) or even as a disgrace...they could always make all those extra airbags standard. However, that would do ugly to the prices...that or they could just take the hit in profit for not making the Camry safer in that aspect. It's funny how the back seat of that Camry on the NHTSA website looked more damage than the front.

jfgoing · June 2002

Why would the new Camry score 2 when the previous model received 3 stars? Well, as every engineer knows you can only optimize so many cases.

Anyone who's looked at the side profiles of new sedans can see that car designers are making them "high-waisted". Why? I assume it's cause they are trying to make the cars more resistant to T-bone strikes by SUV's. ("SUV's - ethnically cleansing American roads of pesky sedans since 1988" :-)

So what happens when one of these sedans, with side impact structures positioned high up to protect against Ford Exterminators get whacked by a low NHTSA barrier (or a another sedan)? Well, apparently not what you'd like.

The solution? Ideally, you'd like to have a standard height (or at least tighter range of heights) for front impact structures on all vehicles - that way you'd know *where* to put the side impact protection. But, of course, getting that to happen isn't something engineers are going to do ...

sam_beaver · June 2002

Wmquan, thanks for explaining about the "SAB" designation.

It's strange that a Ford Taurus gets the same rating with and without side airbags. They don't help at all on that car?? I sure hope that Camry passengers are shown to get some real protection from side airbags. I guess I'll sleep tonight by pretending that the Lexus is the same as the Camry.

jpstax · June 2002

Does anyone know which particular refrigerant the '92 A/C uses. The A/C doesn't seem to be cooling, and I'd like to re-charge the system.

8u6hfd · June 2002

R12

R134A started in 1994

alpha01 · June 2002

Our 2002 LE 4cylinder is the best Toyota, and the best car, that we have ever leased or owned. Period. Accelerates well, good fuel economy, roomy, comfortable, handles securely, looks as dapper as any family sedan (Stratosphere Mica, alloys), and has been "anvil solid" and reliable in its first 8200 miles. However, after the recent 2/5 Star rating for driver/rear passenger by the NHSTA, this Toyota loyalist is disappointed, and never again will we purchase a new Toyota before the ratings are out. (The huge disparity in injury measures also has me wondering how Toyota reinforced the rear door/structure, or what they did to it that was so different from the front?) Yes, the Camry tops its class in the IIHS offset (Good-Best Pick), but thats not going to help in a T-bone. The new 03 Accord may be really hideous, but rumor has it Side Curtain Airbags will be standard. I do hope this forces Toyota to do the same with the Camry in the future.

~alpha

coolguyky7 · June 2002

Toyota is working on a new 3.3L 6 cylinder engine to be used in Lexus vehicles, ie ES300, GS300, but their numbers will become 330. The Camry and Avalon should see the name engine but with maybe as not as much HP as the Lexus vehicles, but none the less, an improvement.

8u6hfd · June 2002

Are you sure that the ES and GS will share the same engine, since the GS is mounted longitudinally,a dn the ES (and other Camry-based cars) are transversely mounted?

And there's the enigne mount locations from the JZ and MZ engines.

alpha01 · June 2002

I agree, 8u6hfd. I doubt the upcoming GS 6 cylinder will be the same that is used in the Camry platforms. From what I understand (don't quote me), we can expect to see the the 3.3L first in the Sienna and Lexus RX both of which are rumored to be carryovers for model year 2003 but introduced in Spring (think May) as 2004 redesigns.

After that, I have no idea how Toyota will introduce the engine into the Avalon, Highlander, and ES. Perhaps instead of putting the 3.3L in the Camry they will finally give it VVT-i and tune it to the specs currently posessed by the HL and RX (220hp and 222lb-ft.)???

This is all speculation based on posts I have read on these edmunds boards.
~alpha

coolguyky7 · June 2002

Wait, I take what i said about. The GS and ES would have different ones. The GS has a straight line and the ES has a V. Just what Alpha said. Toyota is also working on a 3.5L engine I hear.

i_luv_toyota · June 2002

Is this 3.3 liter the "fix" for the current sludge prone 3.0-liter V6?

Are the 3.0-liter's sludge problems the reason for the new 3.3L engine?

8u6hfd · June 2002

more power to stay competitive with its increasing displacment competition

drivinisfun · June 2002

What's up with this Toyota???

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5037&sid=173&n=156

drivinisfun · June 2002

http://www.nhtsa.org/NCAP/Cars/2089.html

alpha01 · June 2002

Where have you been?
check out the past 30 posts. The Camry 2 star driver's side impact is a major issue, and if the Accord is going to have Side Curtains as standard for 2003, Toyota sales will CERTAINLY suffer, and rightly so. I love our 2002, it is an OUTSTANDING car- a luxury ride at a lower price point, but this is a sad rating. Thats great that the rear passenger got 5 stars, but that seat is often unoccupied. It should be noted that this was a test of a non-Side Airbag equipped model.

Among non-Side Airbag models in Side Impact Test
2002 Accord: Driver 4 stars/Rear Passenger 4 stars
2002 Altima: Driver 3 stars/Rear Passenger 4 stars
2002 Camry: Driver 2 stars/Rear Passenger 5 stars

As for frontal impacts, there is data for all three from the IIHS (but not NHTSA)
40 MPH Offset
2002 Camry: Good-"Best Pick"
2002 Altima: Good
2002 Accord: Acceptable

Overall, it seems if you are on looking at a bread and butter 22K family car, in terms of safety, the way to go is the Altima. Especially since you can get side airbags in the Alti at a reasonable cost, packaged with ABS.

~alpha

alpha01 · June 2002

Can anyone here post any information relating to the horsepower and torque curves for the current Camry engines (2.4L and 3.0L), or perhaps post a link to where I could find such info? Toyota used to print graphs in their brochures, but I guess people werent really interested or something.
Thanks.
~alpha

armtdm · June 2002

The 92 Toyotas used the old Freon stuff. I still have a 92. Had to replace O rings a few years ago. Freon is expensive stuff

dragonfire · June 2002

I was hoping that someone could provide information on which model would have the best chance of having side air bags and ABS? Is it best to order a vehicle? I was hoping to get a 4 cyl. LE if possible with those two options. thanks in advance.

jrct9454 · June 2002

Well, unfortunately the short answer to your question is to get an XLE - virtually all of them on our dealer's lot had the side bags. Otherwise, it's the old game of ordering and waiting for the dealer to either track down a car already built, or wait for it to be built.

There are lots of LEs out there with side bags, but seemingly very few with both side bags and ABS. Deals around here on XLE 4s [I'm talking Northern CA] are awfully good, and the differences in equipment levels can make the step up worthwhile - but only if your budget permits, obviously, and I realize that is not always the case.

wmquan · June 2002

If someone wants at least a 4-star side impact rating, and is of the type to want to be absolutely sure instead of taking it on faith and rumor, perhaps one should wait until NHTSA performs a side-impact test on a Camry with side airbags. I don't know when that's going to happen.

If the version without side airbags tested with 2-stars, it's quite possible that the version with side airbags will only test with 3-stars. Not consistent with the previous generation, of course, but the current generation already has an issue.

Just my 0.02.

alpha01 · June 2002

I think that the ES 300's performance is a good indicator of how the Camry would test with Side Airbags. That said, I think there are many among us who wonder if the non airbag Camry 2 star rating is anamoulous- especially since the car seems to have a strong structure as a whole (judging from the IIHS test), and that it would be unwise for Toyota to neglect this type of impact- indeed, they engineered the new Corolla to achieve 4 stars for both driver and rear passenger without airbags. And finally, what would cause such a wide difference in the performanc of the driver as compared to the rear passenger, especially since the pelvic forces on both those dummies are nearly identical?
Curiosities indeed
~alpha

dragonfire · June 2002

Yes.. I'm from northern California and I've been keeping up with the deals in the paper and consensus in today's paper shows about 3K off msrp. definitely a pretty good price. thanks for the information. I will most likely start with an LE and move to the XLE if I cannot find the options. thanks again for your input.

alpha.. I hope your right!

george00 · June 2002

This morning, after going through a commercial car wash, my dashboard thermometer read 72. That would be a very nice temperature, but the actual outside temperature was 102 - 30 degrees higher. The thermometer remained 30 degrees too high for the next two hours, going only to 80 when the actual temp was 110. My Toyota dealer told me on the phone that I should bring the car in, there was nothing I could do myself. Is that right? I'm covered by warranty, but it's a 25 mile drive each way, and then the wait for service - a morning or afternoon shot. Does anyone know any way I can reset the thermometer myself? Thanks.

wmquan · June 2002

I would hope that the Camry with side airbags would be more comparable to the ES300.

However, I would think that someone who wants the comfort level of being sure might want to wait. If someone is confident, then they have no reason to wait. It's an individual choice.

After all:

1) The previous-gen Camry with side airbags (SAB) did not perform quite as well as the previous-gen ES300 w/SAB. So that would imply that the new-gen Camry w/SAB won't do as well as the new-gen ES300. The question then would be, how much worse?

2) The new-gen Camry wo/SAB does worse than the previous-gen Camry wo/SAB. That might imply that the new-gen Camry w/SAB also does worse than the previous-gen Camry w/SAB (4-stars front).

3) Sure the new-gen Camry wo/SAB test could have been an anomaly. But does a conservative purchaser who is worried about side-impact protection and believes in crash-test scores, want to take a chance speculating on a crash test score, rather than seeing it? Especially given the 2-star result already posted? You've already said that you will not buy another Toyota without seeing the scores first. Thus, can we guarantee that the new-gen Camry w/SAB will indeed score 4-stars for the front (if that's what someone is looking for)?

"And finally, what would cause such a wide difference in the performanc of the driver as compared to the rear passenger, especially since the pelvic forces on both those dummies are nearly identical? "

It is quite possible. If you check NHTSA's site, there are a few vehicles that have had three-star variations between the front and rear passengers. It depends on many factors in the vehicle's structure, including how far back the rear passenger is relative to the barrier, what is inside the doors themselves (front vs. back), B-pillar strength, C-pillar structure, etc. In those (admittedly fewer) vehicles with 3-star differences that I looked at, the delta in the pelvic decleration between front and rear was actually a lower percentage than it is for the tested 2002 Camry!

cliffy1 · June 2002

Assumption #2 in your post above doesn't fit. Last year's Camry did not have full side impact curtains like the new ones do.

jrct9454 · June 2002

The sensor for the outside temp gauge resides in the open space between the front bumper and the AC radiator. It was probably affected by the force of the water from the car wash. It may "come back" if the only problem was the shock of the cold water [I've had that happen on other thermometers], but my guess is that it may have to be replaced. If you can get a hand in there [it is easy on our '03 Corolla], you many be able to fuss with it a bit and see if it makes any difference...otherwise, it's an item for your next trip to the dealer.

wmquan · June 2002

"Assumption #2 in your post above doesn't fit. Last year's Camry did not have full side impact curtains like the new ones do."

Sure it can fit. As discussed here previously, side curtain airbags may do little or nothing of benefit in the NHTSA side-impact test. Due to the height of the NHTSA's barrier, and because of the fact that NHTSA doesn't even bother to measure head injury in the side-impact test.

We'll have to wait and see. Which is my original point here. That the Camry with side airbags (including curtains) may be much better, or just better. Those who want the comfort level of proof should wait for the NHTSA test results on the Camry with side airbags, and not simply buy into the speculation here (including my own speculation).

george00 · June 2002

Thanks jrct9454. My thermometer did "come back" this morning. Strange that a car wash did that to it. I wonder what will happen when I drive it in the rain. (I've only owned it since January, and there's been no rain since then, not a drop - the longest drought in Arizona history, which is why half the state is on fire.)

jrct9454 · June 2002

Even the heaviest run in the rain will probably leave it unaffected - it takes a lot of very directed water pressure [e.g. the car wash] and a big difference in temp to "shock" it.

And the monsoon should soon be upon you - we can hope, anyway...

yanker · July 2002

When might we ewxpect the 2003 Camry?

ahossa · July 2002

In the showroom in early September and Delivery last week in Sept or first week in Oct. That's how its done in Nyc.In New Jersey Or CT I'd say late August. Dont ask me why.

tiger8 · July 2002

I rented a Camry last week and the instruction manual is very ambiguous (maybe intentionally so) about fuel for the V6. It says use 87 octane, but for improved performance use 91. So what are they really saying here? It sounds like they're saying you can use 87 but performance will suffer. It sounds like for PR purposes they advertise that the V6 uses regular, but the fine print says it's not the optimum fuel. So then what's the difference between the Lexus ES300 which advises 91 and the Camry which advises 87, and they are essentially the same engine?

V6 owners, what do you use?

alpha01 · July 2002

I am not positive, but I think the ES300 might have a slightly different compression ratio- and the ES300 has VVTi- which accounts for the added 18hp and 11 lb ft. over the Camry.
~alpha

8u6hfd · July 2002

I believe the CR is the same.

Both enignes are equipped with dual knock sensors (one for each cylinder bank).

You can use 87 octane, but you may see some performance and fuel economy losses.

It was designed for 91 octane, using using 87, the ECU will retard the timing a few degrees.

george00 · July 2002

I finally got an answer from Toyota about my problems with my seat. I had asked them if they made or could recommend any aftermarket cushions for the driver's seat, which was killing my back, or if a seat from any other car would fit my Camry. I told them that money was no object, as no seat could cost as much as I will lose if I must get rid of my 6-month-old car. Their answer was no, they don't market any cushions for the Camry, and they would not recommend any seat from another car - they wouldn't say if a seat from any other car would fit, only that it would constitute a "modification" and that they don't recommend modifications and that a modification might void my warranty in some unspecified manner. In other words, I must simply suffer or trade my new car in for a different model. By the way, I had mentioned to them that I've owned a Tercel (fair seat), a Corolla (comfortable seat), and this Camry (terrible seat), but Toyota evidently does not value loyalty highly. Needless to say, I won't get another Toyota, but meanwhile I may have a terrific deal to offer on a 2002 Camry LE4 with 4000 miles, flawless operation, and a lousy seat.

cliffy1 · July 2002

Your dealer and Toyota can't recommend modification. That doesn't mean it can't be done. I would suggest taking your car to a conversion van shop. These guys are in the business of modifying vehicles and may be able to help you. If nothing else, at least you'll have a 2nd opinion from an independent source.

jrct9454 · July 2002

...Toyota can take no stance on the seat replacement question other than the one you got. If you want to blame somebody, you might start with the trial lawyers in this country.

As Steve has indicated [above], that shouldn't stop you from investigating any and all aftermarket solutions. And if money is no object, consult with any speed shop about replacement seats such as Recaro or Scheele. They make adapters to fit just about any set of OEM seat rails, and my test sits at various car shows tell me that the solution to your problem is out there. A trip through the yellow pages should get the process started.

alpha01 · July 2002

george00- what is your email address? Using the TH as a medium for sale is prohibited, but a friendly exhange of email addresses cant hurt...
~alpha

george00 · July 2002

Thanks for the suggestions, which are most welcome:

jrct9454 - No, I won't blame the trial lawyers, though they are an easy target. Toyota cannot possibly incur any liability by telling me what if any seat will fit my car, which is all I asked them to do. I did not ask them to recommend anything. Of course if they advised me that a, say, Lexus ES300 seat would fit my car, and it did not, they they might be liable for my cost of buying the ES300 seat - though they could avoid even that liability by asking me to agree in advance that they would not be so liable. I guess I should add that I am a retired trial lawyer. As for the speed shop, I have tried to go that route, in particular with Recarro, but could not find any shop which had one available for me to sit in. I will look into Scheele, and will try again to find a shop, perhaps in Phoenix (I live in Tucson) or even, if necessary, in southern California (it's 400 miles to San Diego, 500 to L.A.). I really do like the car and have no idea what else to look at, as I looked at everything in the price bracket before buying the Camry. (My son says the Volvo S60 is very comfortable, but it is double the price.)

Cliffy 1: Can you recommend any particular conversion van shop, either a national chain or one located in Arizona or California? I did call such shops here in Tucson, but couldn't find one which even understood what I was talking about.

Alpha01: Any recommendation would be most appreciated. My email is ggoldberg@sprintmail.com.

Thanks to all again.

cliffy1 · July 2002

Being a retired lawyer, I'm sure you can understand corporate aversion to liability. The liability isn't even so much in the fit of the seat, but it is more of a safety issue. Picture this: You swap out Toyota seats for Lexus seats and it fits perfectly. Five years later, you are in a head on collision and the seat rail breaks. The impact of the collision was such that it would not have mattered which seat was there, but if you decided to sue Toyota, a jury would look at it like a David and Goliath situation. After all, it was Toyota itself that said to do it and the seat failed and caused injury.

Anyway, in answer to your question, no, I don't have a specific recommendation. Have you actually walked into one of these stores or has everything been done over the phone? It is possible that face to face interaction would help you convey your needs. In order to narrow down shops, you might want to talk to a local Ford of Dodge store that sells conversion vans and ask who they use. Then, go to the shop and hopefully, speak to somebody who understands you.

Here is one other suggestion that might help. I had a customer who needed to add a seatbelt to a Solara convertible and I discovered that the shop here in VA that installs our leather kits also did custom seat modifications. Sure Fit was the name of that company and I don't know if they could help you or even if they have stores in your area, but it is something to look at.

mimi919 · July 2002

After reading your posts about the Camry drivers seat I can sympathize with you as I also almost bought a new Camry but because of the drivers seat I switched to the Toyota Solara which has an extremely comfortable drivers seat with an 8 way power adjustable rather then the 4 way Camry power seat.
I live in Mesa AZ. and if you are ever up this way I would be more then happy to let you take a long drive in my Solara so you can get the feel of that seat if the Solara is a car you may be considering buying in the event to do end up selling your Camry.
I hope you are able to resolve your problem.

Toyota Camry 2006 and earlier

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