Recently purchased the Platinum warranty 7/100,000 miles for $1049.00 plus 7 percent tax. Is this a taxable item. This was purchase after I bought the car. Good price or good rip-off by the dealership!
I agree. That is about as low as you will ever see. The tax thing varies. Here in VA, they consider half of the price to be for parts and half labor. Therefore, they charge half the regular tax rate of 4.5%.
Can anyone compare the performance of the Camry with the older V-6 (192 hp) with the new V-6 (210 hp) introduced earlier this year? Is the acceleration noticeably improved and is it about the same?
Have had 4 Toyota's since 1988, 2 Camry's and 2 Corolla's, and always had the proverbial oil leak for a couple of days after each change, no matter who performed the service. Just had to learn to live with it and use paper towels on the garage floor!
I'd expect the new LE/XLE VVTi 3.0L V6s to get from 0-60 anywhere from 4 to 6 tenths quicker than the outgoing 192hp engine, which Car and Driver tested at 8.2 to 60 when new, and 7.9sec after 40,000 miles. The VVTi version develops a full 18hp and 11 lb.ft. over the non-VVTi version, but the bigger difference may be in that gearing for the two vehicles is different, with the VVTi linked to the 5 Speed auto, and not a 4sp. My guesstimate for the Camry SE V6 with its 3.3L V6 is 7 flat from 0-60, as Car and Driver managed 6.9 from the new Solara.
Thanks for the estimate. Sounds reasonable. Speaking of the V-6 engine/transmission change, do you know if the new 5-speed is as smooth as the 4-speed? As you probably know, many Lexus ES300 owners (and reviewers) have complained about the rough shifting of the 5-speed transmission in that vehicle.
Does anyone have any idea what are the differences between the SE V6 and XLE V6 navigation systems? Toyota has the SE as an "AVN" system and on the XLE as an "EMV". I contacted Toyota of California and they claim that there are no differences in any of the Toyota Navigation systems. Also, does anyone know of someone who has the Navigation system in their 02-04 Camry? Do they have a cassette deck included with the system?
nw- I am not aware of any differences between the NAVIs, and I'm not sure why there would be different "codes". They certainly seem to be the same systems.
bartalk- The ES300 wasnt criticized for rough shifting, rather, excessive hesitation when downshifting at certain speeds. It seems that comparatively few people had this issue, as the vehicle is still ranked VERY highly by JD Powers for Initial Quality, as well as in Consumer Reports. JD Power also recently announced that the ES330 has better resale value than any vehicle in its class. That said, when the ES300 was using the so-called "problematic" 5 speed auto trans, the Camry did not have it yet. Since that time, Lexus issued an upgrade for the ES300, and this fall, with the introduction of the ES330, slightly revised the gearing, from what I understand. I have not heard any complaints from on the Camry board of this problem, and I believe all the current V6s have the upgraded transmission software and gearing.
Yes, owners complained of a delay in downshifting in the ES300 (although, as you say, the Consumer Reports reliability charts did not indicate any problems with the transmission by what must be hundreds of owners). I test-drove an '04 ES330, however, and was not impressed with the 5-speed unit on that, compared, e.g., to the GS 300 which was virtually perfect and "invisible."
Alpha01 Thanks for the input. Also, you are correct the 5-speed auto is newly designed as per Toyota of California. This is the same trany that is in the ES330. Also, barktalk2 the trany in the GS300 is completly different from the front wheel drive models, (i.e Camry and ES330).
How do I know where my '03 Camry LE was manufactured??? Just wondering if it was made in Japan, US, or Canada. The serial number does start with "J", but I don't know if that has anything to do with it.
I don't believe that Toyota is producing Camry models in Cananda any longer, as Solara production, starting with the new generation, moved exclusively to Kentucky (coinciding with the Sienna's move to Indiana).
I just purchased the '04 XLE Camry and having owned a Lexus for 8 years, I have to admit I had reservations. I test drove the ES330, the '04 Maxima and the '04 Infiniti, before making my decision on the Camry. My husband's family are all Camry owners and he researched the '04 Camry ad nauseum before I purchased it. I have had my car 2 weeks now and I am very impressed with it. What a smooth ride ! ! And I feel safe with the side curtain airbags. Thanks TOYOTA.........
Hi, I was just curious why you decided to down size from a Lexus to a Toyota. Didn't you like the ride and handling of the ES330? Or was it too expensive for what you were getting?
Please give us a run down on why you decided on the camry xle over the es330. While I admit that the es is a nicer car and comes with the lexus cachet, I do not feel that it is worth over 10K more than a camry xle.
motown--there is no downsize from the es to the camry, they are basically the same size car. Now if you mean, downgrade, as in lexus to toyota, thats something different.
Maybe me4you felt that that camry xle was just as luxury for her and she decided to use her 12K price difference on something else besides a car.
We also decided not to go for the ES330. We ordered an 04 Camry SE V6 with nearly all the same options and saved over $13,000.00. Lets face it, the Frame, Engine and Tranny are all the same between the two vehicles. So we gave up a few bells and whistles that were not computing to us that would have us spend the extra $$$. I would also agree that the interior of the ES330 is alot much nicer and pleasing, but hey we don't live in our car. Also, we got the SE with nearly everything possible with a price tag of $26,480.00 Plus Taxes and Fees. Then upon delievery we will be entitled to whatever rebates and incentives that Toyota offers at that time. Money was not an issue in our decision making.
I've been actively looking at both the XLE V6 and the ES 330. Both fully loaded with NAV and all the bells and whistles. It's a $6000-7000 price difference MAX. Not $13,000 - unless you aren't comparing fully-loaded models. Not even $10,000. I'd say you are comparing Camry out-the-door to ES sticker price. That's not a fair comparison. You might get a $13,000 difference that way, but real world numbers are much closer.
Now even $6000 is quite a lot of difference. I think the ES is quieter, more luxurious and subjectively better-looking. The Camry will allow you to buy a new computer and a few other things with the left over dollars. But there are a thousand Camrys (or more?) for every Lexus ES.
I guess my only concern about the Lexus is the potential tranny issue and the cost of regular maintenance. I keep being told that the ES scheduled maintenance is significantly more expensive than the Camry upkeep.
Long story short, if the true price diff WAS $13,000, then you can't justify that on these two cars. But the real world price diff is definitely not more than $7000 for fully-loaded models. As of today, at my two dealers, the XLE would be $6000 less than the Lexus with Navigation AND Mark Levinson.
(Now if I could just convince my better half to go for the Lexus........!)
I think where some people are coming up with such a big price difference is between the camry xle 4 cyl and the es330. I checked and msrp difference between these two models without any options is around 9K. Then add in the fact that you can only get the nav with the v6 in the camry and there is a close to 13K difference between a 4cly xle and an es with nav.
Is this a fair comparison?, yes and no. It is hard to do a direct comparison since the v6 engine is different between the xle and the es. You have to get the se, as nw1997 did, to get the exact same engine. If you get the se then you lose the wood trim and some other xle features.
Most shoppers do not get as detailed as we do on edmunds boards. As for myself I drove the 3.0 v6 camry and saw no appreciable difference over the 4 cyl. Factoring in the additional 3K cost and the worse gas mileage, I opted for the 4 cyl and I am very pleased with the car. I have not researched or priced es's fully, so I cannot comment on what they sell for, but you also have to remember that in the real world camrys go for invoice or less minus any rebates that are available. An ES even at invoice was out of my price range. I got an xle 4cyl with premium pkg, mats, heated seats, and side airbags for $21,800. it was 23.5K OTD then minus a 1K rebate for a total OTD of 22.5K. An ES with none of these options would have to be selling at invoice minus like a 7K rebate to even get to that price range. I am pretty sure that is not the curent market for the es.
In a long winded kind of way what I am trying to say is that a typical shopper will drive both cars (4cyl xle, v6 es), not tell that big a difference over the increased luxury and cachet of the lexus, and decide to pocket the extra money for their kids college fund. It appears this is what me4you did. Do not get me wrong. The es is a great car and i drool everytime i see one on the road, but it was just not practical for me to spend that kind of money. And even if I could have afforded it, I probably would have opted for the camry and used the savings for a few vacations and a new computer. LOL.
masspectator- "In a long winded kind of way what I am trying to say is that a typical shopper will drive both cars (4cyl xle, v6 es), not tell that big a difference over the increased luxury and cachet of the lexus, and decide to pocket the extra money for their kids college fund. It appears this is what me4you did."
I really dont believe that many prospective near lux buyers of the ES or similar cars even consider the 4 cyl. Camry. All of your comments indicate that you indeed made the best decision for you, but that you really NEVER considered the ES seriously. Those who do consider the ES seriously, probably DONT consider the 157hp Camry, nor do they care about the savings in gas money that they would get from the 3-4 MPG extra that the Camry saves them.
billmahan- I indeed believe you are correct when you state that people are comparing the selling price for the Camry vs. the MSRP for the ES, and that is where the $13,000 difference comes in. Certainly, that is an unreasonable comparison, and indeed, as you point out, when comparing MSRPs, a fully loaded SE or XLE V6 is 6-7K LESS than the fully loaded ES330, a sizeable difference, but far from 13K. According to last years sales figures, the Camry outsells the ES by a little less than 6 to 1. Another BIG ES advantage is the TREMENDOUS resale value, which was recently named best in class and among the best in the industry, and accordingly, partly makes up for the 6-7K difference in comparably equipped pricing. That, of course, and the legendary Lexus service.
Dont get me wrong, of the cars in this discussion, I am TOTALLY envious of nw1997s awesome Camry 3.3L SE V6, and it would be my choice, as I dont personally care about Lexus cachet and find the more sporting suspension and looks of the Camry very pleasing. But if I were looking at the XLE V6 Camry, with its less powerful engine, lower quality leather, no ML, lower resale, etc... I'd be trying hard to cough up the extra dough for the finer ES.
(Factoid: Did you know that the ES now uses the SAME outstanding quality leather as the LS? Prior to this generation, this had never been the case).
The MSRP on our SE V6 was $29,888.00 with the follwong, (Alpha01 knows this already):
1) Navigation Package: includes perforated leather-trimmed interior; touch-screen DVD navigation system with JBL Premium AM/FM single-disc CD player, eight speakers in six locations and FM diversity reception; manually retractable rear sunshade; and trunk-mounted cargo net. 2) VSC and Side Airbag Package: includes Vehicle Stability Control with Traction Control and Brake Assist; and driver and front passenger front seat-mounted side airbags and front and rear side curtain airbags 3) Color-keyed rear spoiler with integrated center stop lamp, Heated front seats and Power-adjustable pedals. Autodimming rear view mirror, V5 Passive Alarm system and five piece carpeted floor mats.
Now for an ES330 that has the same engine, Tranny and Sub-Frame and with it "closely" matched to what we got with our SE was close to $40,000.00. Yes, I agree the ES330 is a very elegant vehicle, but lets face it an SE Camry in my opinion is an ES330 in disguise. We went to several LEXUS dealerships and the lowest we got off the MSRP was approx. $2,000.00 which brought the price to approx. $38,000.00. before Taxes, Fees, etc. Now, the SE Camry MSRP was $29,888.00 after negotiating we got it for $26,480.00 which does not include Taxes, Fees, etc and we will be entitled to whatever incentives that Toyota offers at time of delivery. Money was never an issue when we made our final decision. We have just returned our RX300 from a lease and to do it all over for a "TOYOTA" it's not worth the extra money just to "FEEL" I am driving in a superior vehicle. If many folks were blind folded and was driven in both the ES330 and SE Camry most people could never tell the difference. Lastly, here is how I came up with the 13K difference. ES330 $38,000.00 Vs Camry SE $26,480.00 so Iam off by approx. $1,000.00. The bells and whistles were not worth the extra $$$ and we are planing to keep our SE for a long time, so resale value to me is not an issue.
There is no doubt that these two are great cars and there is a significant price difference between them. But, please do not forget that you will be paying more for every year that you own the ES330 in terms of higher insurance, higher service costs, and higher registration. There are a few states where the registration is the same but not many. If you compare the 4-cylinder Camry vs. the 6-cylinder Lexus then every time you fill the tank you will be paying more. It is not an easy decision to make but there IS a significant total cost difference.
While I cannot say for sure if your struts are worn to the point of disrepair, but I can tell you this.
The sagging with 4 people in the vechile, is more the spring load, than the struts. So you will not get that much diff. from changing struts.
The Avalon/Camry/Solara/Lexus 330 all use the same struts. Look at the part numbers, they are the same.
If you do not like the bouncy soft ride, then I would recommend NOT putting the Toyota(made by a division of Monroe I believe) struts back on.
I placed as others have a set of TokicoHP Struts on my 02 Avalon, with a remarkable difference in the car now. Albeit, the car is a little stiffer especially on rough concrete pavement, the handling, response, and braking(no more high speed nose dive of the front end) are dramatically increased. The prices for the struts are a little less than a Toyota Strut, but you can see on the net or ebay. Find a good wheel and alignment place to put them in, as you will have to get it aligned.
You pay more for "NAME BRAND". Many people don't believe me when I took the air filter from my RX300 to a "TOYOTA" parts counter and purchased a replacement for $22.99. When I went to "LEXUS" the same filter cost nearly $40.00. Same goes for the oil filters and nearly all the other parts on the vehicle. Same holds true for parts on the ES330 and the SE Camry V6 (04 Models). Dealership hourly rates are much higher for Lexus compared to Toyota. Bottom line you will pay more in the long run for an ES3300 as fedvh pointed out earlier. If you are willing to give up some of the fancy bells and whistels the Camry SE V6 will cost much less in the long run. Do the calculations your self, (i.e.: insurance quotes, service costs, etc.). We had all these calculated before we made our final decision and purchased the 04 Camry SE V6.
I have a 97 V6 with 78K miles. No problems to date. I am now considering a new Camry. I like the features on the xle, but not sure I want to spend the extra $$$ for the V6. Will I find the 4 cylinder sluggish? Any comments on the 4 cylinder vs V6 would be appreciated. Thanks.
I test drove a 2003 4 cyl and 6 cyl and did not see any appreciable difference. I went with the 4 cyl. It drives very well to me and short of a sports car seems to have very adequate pick up.
The car it replaced was a 6 cyl sable. From a dead stop the sable was a little quicker. Once over 20-30 mph I think the 4 cyl performs better.
Great discussion guys. Alpha, I have to disagree with you. While I agree it is not a large part of the car buying public that would look at an ES and a camry, there appear to be quite a few, just here on edmunds. i have read about this a number of times on these boards.
The lexus will cost more in maint and upkeep. Luxury cars always do. I think the point that the camry xle or se buyers are trying to make is that they FEEL like they are driving a lexus while saving the extra dough, getting great toyota quality and lower upkeep costs. I know I feel that way when i drive my XLE. I have ridden in an rx300 alot and my camry xle, to me, is just as nice.
speaking of that i took my toyota rx300 to do a 20,000 miles service, guess how much they charge!!!, $137 after tax, parts and labor, which they said it is $89/hour, and the statement of work said change oil filter, refill x quart of oil. refil windshield fluid, check brakes pad, that is it. wut a rip off.
I understand your claims, and can certainly understand where Camry XLE V6 purchasers might consider the Lexus ES330. However, I HIGHLY DOUBT that 4 cylinder Camry purchasers are considering the ES330, and vice versa. Certainly, from what you have said, it doesnt seem that you were ever SERIOUSLY considering the ES330. I am ecstatic that you enjoy your Camry, and certainly it was the BEST choice for you.
I checked on carsdirect.com today. I had written a detailed post, but my internet service bugged out and it got lost.
Using NW1997's exact (awesome) 04 3.3L SEV6 vs. the ES330, and equipping the ES with NAV, VSC, ML, Heated Seats, Adj. Pedals (in attempt to keep equipment similar), the difference is $6800 in MSRP and $10000 in selling price, as the 04 Lexus ES is currently selling at sticker in the Northeast, according to carsdirect.
The difference would be greater if I included in the ES330 items not available on ANY Camry, like AVS, the beautiful burled wood trim package, etc.
jmgg123- You'd do best to drive both first. I personally can easily tell the difference between the capable and efficient Four and the 3.0L V6. Allegedly, the 3.3L feels much faster than that. I'm not saying the 4 is slow- its not, in fact, it is quite peppy and moves the car well. I'm just saying I can tell the difference. (I cannot wait to drive the new 3.3L SE!!! None at dealerships here in hickland Central PA yet.)
The thing that i see being missed in this discussion is the 4cyl SE. I can see where the 6 cyl SE, especially the 04 with the 3.3, could be considered somewhat of a sport sedan, but the 4 cyl model baffles me. I would think that anyone wanting a "sporty" model car would not even consider the 4 cyl SE.
What is your take on the 4 cyl SE and do you think that there is a viable market for it?
Yes you are correct. The 4cycl Camry to most people may feel the same as the 6cycl at "first". But no one seems to understand the long run of the 4 vs 6. A 6cycl in the long run, if maintained well will out last a 4cycl. Reasons why: a 4cycl cannot take the load after a while, especially in stop-and-go traffic with the outside temps above 90F with the a/c blasting a 6cycl will. Next, remember a Camry is a heavy vehicle, once your start to load it with passangers and a trunk full, you will see a significant reduction in performance, a 6cycl will perorm better in this situation. Also, I dont know if anyone else noticed, but when I used to own a 4cycl vehicle everytime we drove up steep climbs on the highway, especially grades that were over a few miles, the vehicle always down shifted and/or rpm raced high to keep up the same speed. Now, after owning 6cycl's that does not happen, unless the vehicle is loaded with passangers and trunk is maxed out full. Alpha01, you are also correct we did not even think about a 4cycl vehicle when we were deciding, we compared all vehicles in equal. For i.e.: ES330 vs Camry SE 04 6cycl. and Accord EX V6 w/navigation to the Camry SE V6. Alpha01 nearly all dealerships in NJ and NY have these vehicles in stock, except with the extra features we ordered with ours. Take a trip over to either NJ and NY and test drive the 04 SE V6, man what a difference the extra torque makes compared to the 3.0L engine. The handling is better than the XLE. We are in our early 30,s so at this "ripe" age the SE meets both our luxury and sporty needs.
Theoretically what you said is right. Powerful engines should last longer than a weak engine. But 4 cylinder Camry engine's reliability probably isn't too far off from 6 cylinder. I still have my 92 Camry LE I4. The car has about 120k miles on the odometer. It is running perfectly. Granted, the car is a bit slow from a dead stop and passing and merging power could be better but otherwise the car has been flawless. I think I could easily put another 120K miles on the odometer. The shortcomings of the I4 does become apparent when my whole family (4 people) goes on an extended vacation. That is why when we decided to buy a new Camry this year, we bought the V6. Test drove both the I4 and V6 and felt there was a difference in acceleration although not as great compared to the old 2.2L engine. How is the ride quality of the SE compare to the XLE?
NW1997- sorry but thats a very OLD mentality. I know a gentleman who bought an 87 Chevy Nova with Toyota's 74hp 1.6L engine. That vehicle now has over 200K miles on it, and there has been no rebuild. It feels like one of the slowest cars EVER. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with it, based on my experience with Toyota and Honda 4s as well as empirical evidence such as the reliability tables in Consumer Reports. I will concede, along with Motown, that in THEORY your argument makes sense, its just that in PRACTICE it appears not to be true. (By your logic, why not purchase only 8 cylinder vehicles? You can get a Grand Marquis loaded for about 25 these days....)
HOWEVER, I definitely agree with you that loads affect the engines ability, in general, to a greater degree with 4 cylinders. Obviously, the V6 better suits your needs- cant wait to drive one- I'll be in Jersey over thanksgiving break, cause thats where my family lives.
Mass- Personally, I'd say the SE 4cyl is the greatest hidden value in the Camry line. Equip it with auto, ABS, Alloys, Side Curtains, Rear Spoiler and Floor Mats and the MSRP is $23,199 very similar to the Accord EX 4 auto with Side Curtains, which is at $23,290 (without Rear Spoiler or Floor Mats). There are a lot of people who purchase these cars that dont want, or need, a V6 and its added fuel consumption. Additionally, many people feel the LE/XLE suspension is simply too soft. Hence, the SE 4, which is probably what my parents will go with (equipped as above) when the time comes for a new car next Sept/Oct. (I probably wont be able to convince them of the V6). Also its worth noting, that comparably equipped, an LE 4 is just as expensive, and you don't get 4 wheel disc brakes or 16 inch tires. I see a decent amount of SE 4 cylinders, so they must not sell too badly.
Motownusa- the ride quality of the SE is slightly choppier than the LE/XLE, but I'd prefer it to the somewhat sloppy nature of the those trim lines.
I have to diagree with your explanation above. Look at it this way, if I purchased both vehicles one 4cycl and one 6cycl and did about 80,000 miles on both in strictly city driving your not going to tell me that the 4cycl is going still perform and the compression is going to be up there from when it was new. Now with the 6cycl, yes the compression may go down slightly, but not as noticeable as the 4cycl. After that 4cycl's 80,000 city miles and the a/c blasting I can assure you that you will notice vibrations in the steering wheel then when placed in "D" with the tranny the vehicle taking on the load will increase that vibration, and why, this is because the compression has significantly dropped compared to the six's. Now I would agree, a 4cycl is great for someone who lives in rural areas and does highway miles frequently, then I could see the compression staying high and the engine lasting longer. Lastly, I would never consider an "American" made vehicle to be comparable to a "foreign" made. Besides with a six vs an eight, the six gives the better of both worlds - fuel efficient and power. Not a gas gulper and over powered. Grand Marquis yea right "Grand Garbage". Also motownusa, the SE ride is slightly firmer than the XLE, but I wouldn't say choppy.
We disagree. Fine. (Even if the 4 produces a bit more vibration at 80K, so what? As long as its still running well, same power, same economy, same sounds- thats all I'd really care about. )
Also, the Grand Marquis is far from "Grand Garbage".
The SE ride is indeed firmer than LE/XLE, and yes, some may consider it choppier, including the automotive press, which have said so. Still, a "choppier" Camry is going to have a better ride than half of the class anyway
"As long as its still running well, same power, same economy, same sounds- thats all I'd really care about"
Normally when a vehicle gets up in mileage the fuel economy is not the same, the MPG decreases with a power lost. I don't see how it will be the "same econonmy, same power, etc." The six also will lose some, but I have not experience a significant lost compared to a 4cycl loss after the 80 or 100 thousand mark. When I changed the oil of a 4cycl its normally black/mud. On our previous six's the oil is not as bad in condition compared to 4's. Reason being is the 6's do not have to work as hard. This is true in areas of acceleration, stop-and-go traffic, etc. have you experienced this? Hey, let us know how your test dive was with the SE V6 3.3 after the Holidays. Alpha01, alot of the time I do not rely on what I read, I prefer to experience it myself. Look at the reviews on the Accords.
The principal of a larger engine lasting longer may be sound, but in this case insignificant. In the old days with a 1.8 liter with 70hp, that engine in this class was overtaxed. A 4 cylinder in the 2.3 - 2.4 range with 157-170hp is far from overtaxed for a midsize. If the useful life or noticeable wear and tear is different at all at 150k miles, I would guess it would be insignificant. In my opinion, a nonfactor in the decision to get a V6. Get it for smoothness and power, not because of this.
Thank you. Bottom line: As reflected in long term studies by JD Power and the multi-year repair records of Consumer Reports, engine SIZE is NOT a factor in durability/reliability. Some of NW1997s comments are a bit out of left field, and not substantiated by empirical evidence. A 4 cylinder Camry auto with its its 157hp and 162 lb.ft, is more than capable of moving without strain, as are cars like the Accord, Altima, 6, etc. Perhaps this was not true of the iron block 2.2L in the past generation, but it is indeed the case now.
(Let us not forget that the current Camry 4 cylinder offers more power and torque in a lighter package than the vehicle's first V6 in 1988, a 2.5L unit.)
As mentioned here several months ago, all 2004 Camry's sold in Canada are the Georgetown built vehicle. My local Toyota service manager advises that he is hearing more complaints about rattles and paint finish than he ever had from the Japan build..... For your information..
Many of the initial trim issues that were apparent upon the new generation's launch for the 2002 model year have been remedied, as evidenced in the "2004 New Car Preview" special publication by Consumer Reports- reliability has returned to "MUCH BETTER THAN AVERAGE".
That's why when my friend bought 04 Camry, he gave up his favorite color and chose "J" in VIN. Still remember the CEO or someone from Toyota said a few yaers back that there IS difference between Japan built and US built Toyotas. It shocked the public.
Beyond the obvious styling differences (styling is always a matter of personal taste), these are 2 rather different vehicles. Assuming that both vehicles meet your utility requirements (Prius is optimized for urban commuting and has a more flexible cargo configuration), you really need to decide whether or not you want a modicum of handling (SE) or a technology test-bed (Prius). In many circles, the Prius will win the cool factor, but it is still rather early in the development cycle for such highbred vehicles, so current buyers are still somewhat a part of Toyota’s extended R&D efforts. My retired neighbor just got a new Prius and I think he is enjoying having the new toy on the block. The SE will be relatively invisible. The net environmental impact of the Prius should be a bit lower (even including the battery issues), but Camry owners certainly don’t need to be embarrassed to drive their vehicles. To thine own self be true!
Could someone please provide me with the correct steps to check the transmission level. The 04 Highlander manual does not mention the correct way to do this. Perhaps the Camry manual does, or one of our Town Hall members knows the procedure. Thanks
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The Sandman :-)
with its 3.3L V6 is 7 flat from 0-60, as Car and Driver managed 6.9 from the new Solara.
~alpha
bartalk- The ES300 wasnt criticized for rough shifting, rather, excessive hesitation when downshifting at certain speeds. It seems that comparatively few people had this issue, as the vehicle is still ranked VERY highly by JD Powers for Initial Quality, as well as in Consumer Reports. JD Power also recently announced that the ES330 has better resale value than any vehicle in its class. That said, when the ES300 was using the so-called "problematic" 5 speed auto trans, the Camry did not have it yet. Since that time, Lexus issued an upgrade for the ES300, and this fall, with the introduction of the ES330, slightly revised the gearing, from what I understand. I have not heard any complaints from on the Camry board of this problem, and I believe all the current V6s have the upgraded transmission software and gearing.
~alpha
~alpha
ad nauseum before I purchased it. I have had my car 2 weeks now and I am very impressed with it.
What a smooth ride ! ! And I feel safe with the side curtain airbags. Thanks TOYOTA.........
this link gives some basic info about the car from the vin
motown--there is no downsize from the es to the camry, they are basically the same size car. Now if you mean, downgrade, as in lexus to toyota, thats something different.
Maybe me4you felt that that camry xle was just as luxury for her and she decided to use her 12K price difference on something else besides a car.
We also decided not to go for the ES330. We ordered an 04 Camry SE V6 with nearly all the same options and saved over $13,000.00. Lets face it, the Frame, Engine and Tranny are all the same between the two vehicles. So we gave up a few bells and whistles that were not computing to us that would have us spend the extra $$$. I would also agree that the interior of the ES330 is alot much nicer and pleasing, but hey we don't live in our car. Also, we got the SE with nearly everything possible with a price tag of $26,480.00 Plus Taxes and Fees. Then upon delievery we will be entitled to whatever rebates and incentives that Toyota offers at that time. Money was not an issue in our decision making.
Now even $6000 is quite a lot of difference. I think the ES is quieter, more luxurious and subjectively better-looking. The Camry will allow you to buy a new computer and a few other things with the left over dollars. But there are a thousand Camrys (or more?) for every Lexus ES.
I guess my only concern about the Lexus is the potential tranny issue and the cost of regular maintenance. I keep being told that the ES scheduled maintenance is significantly more expensive than the Camry upkeep.
Long story short, if the true price diff WAS $13,000, then you can't justify that on these two cars. But the real world price diff is definitely not more than $7000 for fully-loaded models. As of today, at my two dealers, the XLE would be $6000 less than the Lexus with Navigation AND Mark Levinson.
(Now if I could just convince my better half to go for the Lexus........!)
Is this a fair comparison?, yes and no. It is hard to do a direct comparison since the v6 engine is different between the xle and the es. You have to get the se, as nw1997 did, to get the exact same engine. If you get the se then you lose the wood trim and some other xle features.
Most shoppers do not get as detailed as we do on edmunds boards. As for myself I drove the 3.0 v6 camry and saw no appreciable difference over the 4 cyl. Factoring in the additional 3K cost and the worse gas mileage, I opted for the 4 cyl and I am very pleased with the car. I have not researched or priced es's fully, so I cannot comment on what they sell for, but you also have to remember that in the real world camrys go for invoice or less minus any rebates that are available. An ES even at invoice was out of my price range. I got an xle 4cyl with premium pkg, mats, heated seats, and side airbags for $21,800. it was 23.5K OTD then minus a 1K rebate for a total OTD of 22.5K. An ES with none of these options would have to be selling at invoice minus like a 7K rebate to even get to that price range. I am pretty sure that is not the curent market for the es.
In a long winded kind of way what I am trying to say is that a typical shopper will drive both cars (4cyl xle, v6 es), not tell that big a difference over the increased luxury and cachet of the lexus, and decide to pocket the extra money for their kids college fund. It appears this is what me4you did. Do not get me wrong. The es is a great car and i drool everytime i see one on the road, but it was just not practical for me to spend that kind of money. And even if I could have afforded it, I probably would have opted for the camry and used the savings for a few vacations and a new computer. LOL.
I really dont believe that many prospective near lux buyers of the ES or similar cars even consider the 4 cyl. Camry. All of your comments indicate that you indeed made the best decision for you, but that you really NEVER considered the ES seriously. Those who do consider the ES seriously, probably DONT consider the 157hp Camry, nor do they care about the savings in gas money that they would get from the 3-4 MPG extra that the Camry saves them.
billmahan- I indeed believe you are correct when you state that people are comparing the selling price for the Camry vs. the MSRP for the ES, and that is where the $13,000 difference comes in. Certainly, that is an unreasonable comparison, and indeed, as you point out, when comparing MSRPs, a fully loaded SE or XLE V6 is 6-7K LESS than the fully loaded ES330, a sizeable difference, but far from 13K. According to last years sales figures, the Camry outsells the ES by a little less than 6 to 1. Another BIG ES advantage is the TREMENDOUS resale value, which was recently named best in class and among the best in the industry, and accordingly, partly makes up for the 6-7K difference in comparably equipped pricing. That, of course, and the legendary Lexus service.
Dont get me wrong, of the cars in this discussion, I am TOTALLY envious of nw1997s awesome Camry 3.3L SE V6, and it would be my choice, as I dont personally care about Lexus cachet and find the more sporting suspension and looks of the Camry very pleasing. But if I were looking at the XLE V6 Camry, with its less powerful engine, lower quality leather, no ML, lower resale, etc... I'd be trying hard to cough up the extra dough for the finer ES.
(Factoid: Did you know that the ES now uses the SAME outstanding quality leather as the LS? Prior to this generation, this had never been the case).
~alpha
The MSRP on our SE V6 was $29,888.00 with the follwong, (Alpha01 knows this already):
1) Navigation Package: includes perforated leather-trimmed interior; touch-screen DVD navigation system with JBL Premium AM/FM single-disc CD player, eight speakers in six locations and FM diversity reception; manually retractable rear sunshade; and trunk-mounted cargo net.
2) VSC and Side Airbag Package: includes Vehicle Stability Control with Traction Control and Brake Assist; and driver and front passenger front seat-mounted side airbags and front and rear side curtain airbags
3) Color-keyed rear spoiler with integrated center stop lamp, Heated front seats and Power-adjustable pedals. Autodimming rear view mirror, V5 Passive Alarm system and five piece carpeted floor mats.
Now for an ES330 that has the same engine, Tranny and Sub-Frame and with it "closely" matched to what we got with our SE was close to $40,000.00. Yes, I agree the ES330 is a very elegant vehicle, but lets face it an SE Camry in my opinion is an ES330 in disguise. We went to several LEXUS dealerships and the lowest we got off the MSRP was approx. $2,000.00 which brought the price to approx. $38,000.00. before Taxes, Fees, etc. Now, the SE Camry MSRP was $29,888.00 after negotiating we got it for $26,480.00 which does not include Taxes, Fees, etc and we will be entitled to whatever incentives that Toyota offers at time of delivery. Money was never an issue when we made our final decision. We have just returned our RX300 from a lease and to do it all over for a "TOYOTA" it's not worth the extra money just to "FEEL" I am driving in a superior vehicle. If many folks were blind folded and was driven in both the ES330 and SE Camry most people could never tell the difference. Lastly, here is how I came up with the 13K difference. ES330 $38,000.00 Vs Camry SE $26,480.00 so Iam off by approx. $1,000.00. The bells and whistles were not worth the extra $$$ and we are planing to keep our SE for a long time, so resale value to me is not an issue.
While I cannot say for sure if your struts are worn to the point of disrepair, but I can tell you this.
The sagging with 4 people in the vechile, is more the spring load, than the struts. So you will not get that much diff. from changing struts.
The Avalon/Camry/Solara/Lexus 330 all use the same struts. Look at the part numbers, they are the same.
If you do not like the bouncy soft ride, then I would recommend NOT putting the Toyota(made by a division of Monroe I believe) struts back on.
I placed as others have a set of TokicoHP Struts on my 02 Avalon, with a remarkable difference in the car now. Albeit, the car is a little stiffer especially on rough concrete pavement, the handling, response, and braking(no more high speed nose dive of the front end) are dramatically increased. The prices for the struts are a little less than a Toyota Strut, but you can see on the net or ebay. Find a good wheel and alignment place to put them in, as you will have to get it aligned.
Good luck either way.
abfisch
Why are the service costs higher for the Lexus if they are the same car underneath????
Do the new Camry and Lexus require premium fuel??
abfisch
You pay more for "NAME BRAND". Many people don't believe me when I took the air filter from my RX300 to a "TOYOTA" parts counter and purchased a replacement for $22.99. When I went to "LEXUS" the same filter cost nearly $40.00. Same goes for the oil filters and nearly all the other parts on the vehicle. Same holds true for parts on the ES330 and the SE Camry V6 (04 Models). Dealership hourly rates are much higher for Lexus compared to Toyota. Bottom line you will pay more in the long run for an ES3300 as fedvh pointed out earlier. If you are willing to give up some of the fancy bells and whistels the Camry SE V6 will cost much less in the long run. Do the calculations your self, (i.e.: insurance quotes, service costs, etc.). We had all these calculated before we made our final decision and purchased the 04 Camry SE V6.
The car it replaced was a 6 cyl sable. From a dead stop the sable was a little quicker. Once over 20-30 mph I think the 4 cyl performs better.
The lexus will cost more in maint and upkeep. Luxury cars always do. I think the point that the camry xle or se buyers are trying to make is that they FEEL like they are driving a lexus while saving the extra dough, getting great toyota quality and lower upkeep costs. I know I feel that way when i drive my XLE. I have ridden in an rx300 alot and my camry xle, to me, is just as nice.
i took my toyota rx300 to do a 20,000 miles service, guess how much they charge!!!, $137 after tax, parts and labor, which they said it is $89/hour, and the statement of work said change oil filter, refill x quart of oil. refil windshield fluid, check brakes pad, that is it. wut a rip off.
I checked on carsdirect.com today. I had written a detailed post, but my internet service bugged out and it got lost.
Using NW1997's exact (awesome) 04 3.3L SEV6 vs. the ES330, and equipping the ES with NAV, VSC, ML, Heated Seats, Adj. Pedals (in attempt to keep equipment similar), the difference is $6800 in MSRP and $10000 in selling price, as the 04 Lexus ES is currently selling at sticker in the Northeast, according to carsdirect.
The difference would be greater if I included in the ES330 items not available on ANY Camry, like AVS, the beautiful burled wood trim package, etc.
jmgg123- You'd do best to drive both first. I personally can easily tell the difference between the capable and efficient Four and the 3.0L V6. Allegedly, the 3.3L feels much faster than that. I'm not saying the 4 is slow- its not, in fact, it is quite peppy and moves the car well. I'm just saying I can tell the difference. (I cannot wait to drive the new 3.3L SE!!! None at dealerships here in hickland Central PA yet.)
~alpha
What is your take on the 4 cyl SE and do you think that there is a viable market for it?
Yes you are correct. The 4cycl Camry to most people may feel the same as the 6cycl at "first". But no one seems to understand the long run of the 4 vs 6. A 6cycl in the long run, if maintained well will out last a 4cycl. Reasons why: a 4cycl cannot take the load after a while, especially in stop-and-go traffic with the outside temps above 90F with the a/c blasting a 6cycl will. Next, remember a Camry is a heavy vehicle, once your start to load it with passangers and a trunk full, you will see a significant reduction in performance, a 6cycl will perorm better in this situation. Also, I dont know if anyone else noticed, but when I used to own a 4cycl vehicle everytime we drove up steep climbs on the highway, especially grades that were over a few miles, the vehicle always down shifted and/or rpm raced high to keep up the same speed. Now, after owning 6cycl's that does not happen, unless the vehicle is loaded with passangers and trunk is maxed out full. Alpha01, you are also correct we did not even think about a 4cycl vehicle when we were deciding, we compared all vehicles in equal. For i.e.: ES330 vs Camry SE 04 6cycl. and Accord EX V6 w/navigation to the Camry SE V6. Alpha01 nearly all dealerships in NJ and NY have these vehicles in stock, except with the extra features we ordered with ours. Take a trip over to either NJ and NY and test drive the 04 SE V6, man what a difference the extra torque makes compared to the 3.0L engine. The handling is better than the XLE. We are in our early 30,s so at this "ripe" age the SE meets both our luxury and sporty needs.
How is the ride quality of the SE compare to the XLE?
HOWEVER, I definitely agree with you that loads affect the engines ability, in general, to a greater degree with 4 cylinders. Obviously, the V6 better suits your needs- cant wait to drive one- I'll be in Jersey over thanksgiving break, cause thats where my family lives.
Mass- Personally, I'd say the SE 4cyl is the greatest hidden value in the Camry line. Equip it with auto, ABS, Alloys, Side Curtains, Rear Spoiler and Floor Mats and the MSRP is $23,199 very similar to the Accord EX 4 auto with Side Curtains, which is at $23,290 (without Rear Spoiler or Floor Mats). There are a lot of people who purchase these cars that dont want, or need, a V6 and its added fuel consumption. Additionally, many people feel the LE/XLE suspension is simply too soft. Hence, the SE 4, which is probably what my parents will go with (equipped as above) when the time comes for a new car next Sept/Oct. (I probably wont be able to convince them of the V6). Also its worth noting, that comparably equipped, an LE 4 is just as expensive, and you don't get 4 wheel disc brakes or 16 inch tires. I see a decent amount of SE 4 cylinders, so they must not sell too badly.
Motownusa- the ride quality of the SE is slightly choppier than the LE/XLE, but I'd prefer it to the somewhat sloppy nature of the those trim lines.
~alpha
I'll take the larger engine any time.....
Deke
I have to diagree with your explanation above. Look at it this way, if I purchased both vehicles one 4cycl and one 6cycl and did about 80,000 miles on both in strictly city driving your not going to tell me that the 4cycl is going still perform and the compression is going to be up there from when it was new. Now with the 6cycl, yes the compression may go down slightly, but not as noticeable as the 4cycl. After that 4cycl's 80,000 city miles and the a/c blasting I can assure you that you will notice vibrations in the steering wheel then when placed in "D" with the tranny the vehicle taking on the load will increase that vibration, and why, this is because the compression has significantly dropped compared to the six's. Now I would agree, a 4cycl is great for someone who lives in rural areas and does highway miles frequently, then I could see the compression staying high and the engine lasting longer. Lastly, I would never consider an "American" made vehicle to be comparable to a "foreign" made. Besides with a six vs an eight, the six gives the better of both worlds - fuel efficient and power. Not a gas gulper and over powered. Grand Marquis yea right "Grand Garbage". Also motownusa, the SE ride is slightly firmer than the XLE, but I wouldn't say choppy.
Also, the Grand Marquis is far from "Grand Garbage".
The SE ride is indeed firmer than LE/XLE, and yes, some may consider it choppier, including the automotive press, which have said so. Still, a "choppier" Camry is going to have a better ride than half of the class anyway
~alpha
"As long as its still running well, same power, same economy, same sounds- thats all I'd really care about"
Normally when a vehicle gets up in mileage the fuel economy is not the same, the MPG decreases with a power lost. I don't see how it will be the "same econonmy, same power, etc." The six also will lose some, but I have not experience a significant lost compared to a 4cycl loss after the 80 or 100 thousand mark. When I changed the oil of a 4cycl its normally black/mud. On our previous six's the oil is not as bad in condition compared to 4's. Reason being is the 6's do not have to work as hard. This is true in areas of acceleration, stop-and-go traffic, etc. have you experienced this? Hey, let us know how your test dive was with the SE V6 3.3 after the Holidays. Alpha01, alot of the time I do not rely on what I read, I prefer to experience it myself. Look at the reviews on the Accords.
(Let us not forget that the current Camry 4 cylinder offers more power and torque in a lighter package than the vehicle's first V6 in 1988, a 2.5L unit.)
~alpha
~alpha