Chrysler Allies With Fiat

stephen987

I don't see granting exemptions from safety or smog standards happening either, although I could see the US and Canada adopting some EU standards as "equivalent".

That would make sense, but they'd have to do it quickly, before Fiat spends millions to redesign cars around the peculiarities of the US regs.

kyfdx

Well.. that's the same reason my car only gets washed every six months, but I'm thinking we are in the minority, there..

stever

You wash twice a year? You must be using the severe service maintenance schedule.

I used the automatic wash today - left the wagon out in the rain all night to get a nice acid bath.

Here's a wrinkle:

"The eight plants would be left out of a deal for Italy's Fiat to buy the U.S. carmaker's most valuable assets in bankruptcy. Instead, the "new Chrysler" would lease the plants, then shutter them by December 2010."

Chrysler and Fiat: 8 plants will not be part of deal (Chicago Tribune)

I'm not clear why the New Chrysler is going to lease these 8 plants simply to close them.

kyfdx

Basically, FIAT isn't going to buy any plants they don't want, and they aren't assuming any of Chrysler's debt.

Hopefully, they'll keep Chrysler as a going automotive concern, keep maybe 50% of their workforce employed (which is the government's main goal, I think), and keep a seriously pared down dealer network going..

I drove by my local Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealer today, and was thinking: Other than Jeep and mini-vans, they have nothing worth saving.. (trucks? maybe.. badged as Jeeps?)

I think in the end, we'll end up with Jeep/FIAT dealerships, with current Chrysler plants/workforce making the vehicles. Those Chrysler mini-vans can be FIATs, as easily as they are VWs.

just my musings...

nvbanker

Not that I think this Fiat/Chrysler thing is a good idea, b ut s Fiat doesn't have to rush to retool for the US market. they have the current Chryslers to sell while thet get their useless crapboxes ready.

stephen987

NVbanker, have you driven a Fiat at any time in the last 25 years? Or are you just assuming the cars will be "useless crapboxes"?

kyfdx

I haven't driven a FIAT since the early '80s, but I did drive an Alfa 164 in the early '90s... fantastic car!

If they can bring cars like that, they may have a winner (assuming they can price them in Saab/Acura territory).

stephen987

Yeah, the 164 was amazing. From what I've read about current Alfas, they'd have to be priced in the Jetta/Passat range to do well in the US right now. I think the overall plan needs to revolve around offering something the mainstream manufacturers can't, since the competition in Civic/Corolla and Accord/Camry markets is just unbelievably intense.

I sort of envision the 500 competing with the Mini, the Qubo competing with the Kia Soul, and maybe the Grande Punto coming in to do battle with the Fit/Versa/Fiesta. All of these would be niche players.

They might also bring in the Sedici, which is basically the Suzuki SX4 and would be easily federalized. Another possibility is the Linea, which would go head-to-head with the Civic/Corolla/etc. These would have a higher potential to become mainstream sellers, but could still be pitched as offering unique flavor.

I also have a lot of hope that Fiat will bring in some of its "multijet" diesel engines. The fuel economy these things can generate might be a really major selling point.

hpmctorque

"...I could see the US and Canada adopting some EU standards as 'equivalent'."

That would probably work.

boaz47

Fiat is interested in using any old Chrysler auto workers. They won't want anything to do with the UAW and ex UAW workers aren't crossing the line to work for a non union shop. Well I am sure some would but it would be hard to do. So if it is Fiat /Jeep it more than likely will be like Toyota, Honda and Nissan, no unions. at least that would make more sense to me.

stephen987

A thought: if the feds accepted EU standards as equivalent in order to ease Fiat's entry into the US market, then it would be significantly easier for other manufacturers to enter also.

The existing Saturn dealer network might quickly be worth something to Peugeot, Renault, or a newly liberated Opel if that happened.

stephen987

They won't want anything to do with the UAW and ex UAW workers aren't crossing the line to work for a non union shop.

I'm not convinced of this. For one thing, if the choice is non-union job or no job, I think most autoworkers will take the non-union job. Also, European management-labor relations follow different norms than those found in either the US or the Asian companies. I don't know about Fiat's recent labor history, but it's my impression that autoworkers in Europe generally have good salaries and plenty of benefits.

Then again, a lot of European auto manufacturing now takes place in Spain, Portugal, Hungary, and even Turkey rather than in the core nations (Germany, France, Italy, and the UK). So it may turn out that Fiat winds up more interested in the PT Cruiser plant in Toluca than in the Michigan/Wisconsin operations. . .

pfine

Well I for one think it will be excellent to have Italian cars back in the states again. The new FIAT and Alfa Romeos look great and I can't wait for the New 500!

All the best to FIAT and to Chrysler in this new venture together!

bpizzuti

The existing Saturn dealer network might quickly be worth something to Peugeot, Renault, or a newly liberated Opel if that happened.

Renault can already use Nissan if they really want to.

hpmctorque

That would be a good thing, in my opinion, as it would give American motorists more choices, and increase competition.

stephen987

More choices, and more information available about our choices, would be a GREAT thing.

One thing I have noticed in reading automotive publications from the UK is that cars over there display a much wider variety of speed capabilities. Over there, the majority of cars on the road--run of the mill rental-spec 1.4 liter Grande Puntos and 1.6 liter Mondeos, for example--are in the 12-14 second range from 0 to 62 mph (100 km/h).

Will Americans accept that, in return for lower prices and 40 mpg? Our run-of-the-mill cars--four cylinder Accords, Camrys, Corollas, and Civics--are in the eight to ten second range, even with automatic. We're spoiled. . .

bpizzuti

Will Americans accept that, in return for lower prices and 40 mpg? Our run-of-the-mill cars--four cylinder Accords, Camrys, Corollas, and Civics--are in the eight to ten second range, even with automatic. We're spoiled. . .

Not really...if you do highway driving regularly these days, you know that sometimes you need that quick initial acceleration just to get on the things and merge into the traffic flow properly, because no one will give an inch unless you're aggressive, and ramps don't give all THAT much room to accelerate before merging (unless you drive something that can REALLY handle acceleration while turning, like a Subie or Mazda).

It's not that we're spoiled, it's that we're inconsiderate jerks. :shades:

stephen987

It's not that we're spoiled, it's that we're inconsiderate jerks.

Either way--will a 12-second small car cut it here? Perhaps Fiat will have to raid the Alfa Romeo engine room. . .

bpizzuti

Perhaps Fiat will have to raid the Alfa Romeo engine room. .

Would that be a bad thing? I think the Alfas are nicer anyway...though I wouldn't mind getting a shot at an Italian car. Might even make me put off getting a Fiesta.

nvbanker

You can make an agreement with GM to continue supplying Saturn cars for two years until Fiat can get their cars certified in the US. Also the Saturn dealer network is probably the right size for Fiat out of the chute.

If the Government would have stayed out of it, Fiat would have done better for themselves to buy Saturn, and their dealer network, and start marketing cars through the Saturn brand. Chrysler has nothing to offer them, their car lines are incompatible, and we are throwing good money after bad.

stephen987

Would that be a bad thing? I think the Alfas are nicer anyway

I agree--as long as they can keep the price down. I think Fiat will have to come in at a Korean price level. Alfas, if they come at all, will have to come in at VW prices.

Here's my plan:

Fiat 500 -- cheaper alternative to Beetle or Mini in the "cheap but cheerful" market, gas model $14k, diesel $15-16k. If it's any cheaper it won't have the cachet to succeed. Maybe an Abarth model at $18k, if it doesn't undercut the MiTo (see below).

Grande Punto -- near Focus/Rabbit accommodations, but for Versa/Fiesta money. Strippo gas model $11-12k, diesel $14k. Top models around $17k, with Bluetooth and maybe a cheap navi system.

Sedici -- since it's essentially a Suzuki SX4, sell the gas model for $16k, offer the diesel for $18k.

Alfa MiTo -- GTI/Mini Cooper S competitor, one model (loaded), top engine only, Make it $22-24k.

Alfa 159 -- direct competitor for the Jetta. Strippo gas model $18k, loaded diesel $24k.

I'd love to see the Qubo and Panda make it over here, but I'm not sure how strong the business case is for them. Ditto for the Alfa 8C.

iluvmysephia1

would I buy a Fiat Sedici though, if I decided not to buy a Suzuki SX4? And I did look at buying a 2007 Suzuki SX4, too, seriously looked at one. And passed.

Eventually traded in the 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 on a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. But my point is this, would people respect the Fiat Sedici over the Suzuki SX4? Essentially the same car but duplicates. Maybe if Fiat offers the Sedici at a lower price point than Suzuki offers the SX4, eh?

nvbanker

Just as I've always heard - this entire project is doomed.........and so are the cars, and ultimately the company. Fiat was run out of the US once already, and it will happen again.

stephen987

would I buy a Fiat Sedici though, if I decided not to buy a Suzuki SX4?

Maybe, if the price point was lower (doubtful), or if Fiat offered a better dealer network than Suzuki (probable), or if Fiat offered the multijet diesel engine in the Sedici (possible, with comparable acceleration to that of the gas car and up to 50 mpg).

Would I buy the Suzuki, given that the nearest dealer is 30 miles away and has six cars on the lot, and given that Edmunds' long-term SX4 seems to be getting about the same fuel economy as a V6 Accord while offering the acceleration of a ten year old four-cylinder minivan? No.

Would I buy the Fiat, from my local (healthy) Chrysler franchise, with 60% better fuel economy, albeit with similarly lethargic acceleration? Given the conditions under which I drive, I would seriously consider it, just as I am now considering a (significantly more expensive) Jetta TDI Sportwagen.

stephen987

You keep saying that, nvbanker, but so far I haven't seen any evidence that you've done any research on the cars. I ask again, have you driven a Fiat in the last 25 years? Have you read anything written by anyone who has?

iluvmysephia1

good points. I speak as a fan of the Suzuki SX4, so I could call myself a fan of the Fiat Sedici, too. The diesel engine might give the Sedici the nod over the SX4 in a lot of American's minds, indeed.

The Suzuki SX4 appeals to those who want the lowest-priced AWD vehicle on the American market. For all intents and purposes these Suzuki AWD systems are holding up like champs and continuing to work well.

BTW, the Fiat Sedici is also AWD, right?

nvbanker

just as I am now considering a (significantly more expensive) Jetta TDI Sportwagen.

well, probably you would. Since I would never consider a VW either, odds of being attracted to a Fiat are long......

stephen987

I believe Sedici is offered as both FWD and AWD, as is SX4. From what I've read the interior furnishings are a bit different, and the suspension calibrations (things like shock damping rates and spring rates would probably change for the US market anyway.)

Sedici could be the easiest Fiat to bring into the US--all it would really require is EPA certification since the engines are different. With the diesel engine, in particular, the Sedici would also be a nice more-or-less direct replacement for the overweight, badly made Caliber/Patriot/Compass.

This brings up an interesting point: will the jointly-developed Fiat/GM platforms make it easier to fast-track certain Fiat models into the US? I've read that the Grande Punto is based somewhat on the GM Gamma platform. Are there other cars on that platform that are already in the US market? (Aveo maybe?)

stephen987

Since I would never consider a VW either, odds of being attracted to a Fiat are long......

So because you wouldn't buy one, there's no way they'll succeed? I didn't realize you spoke for the entire US auto market!

Americans don't come in one size, shape, or political affiliation. Why would we all drive the same vehicles?

hpmctorque

"...you know that sometimes you need that quick initial acceleration just to get on the things and merge into the traffic flow properly, because no one will give an inch unless you're aggressive, and ramps don't give all THAT much room to accelerate before merging..."

I've heard this many times, but I just don't buy it. I think drivers adjust to the capabilities of their cars.

My experience suggests that European drivers are no more considerate than American ones. In fact, they may generally be less considerate. However, I think the truth is that there's a very wide range of drivers in the U.S. and in Europe, some considerate and others not.

Desire is often justified as need. Most people enjoy having power available, even if they don't use it, or seldom use it. When there's a threat that they may lose what they like they reach for the "need" word. "We need more power for safety reasons." Hog wash! If you have less power you may have to wait a little longer to merge in some cases, but generally that's not even necessary. How many drivers floor the accelerator when merging because not doing so would risk an accident, or merely require other drivers to slow down? I don't think many do. Of course, if you happen to be one who does you'll probably express your disagreement. Now, a lot of drivers choose to inconvenience other drivers by not merging quickly enough, when they could and should either wait for a longer break in the traffic, or accelerate more quickly.

stephen987

I've heard this many times, but I just don't buy it. I think drivers adjust to the capabilities of their cars.

OK, fair enough. In the small metro area where I live there is always the choice of whether to challenge for that spot on the freeway or fall in behind. The pace isn't so frenetic as to make massive amounts of power necessary. It sure is easier to exercise those choices in our '02 Accord V6 than in our '99 Civic though.

BUT. . .

I sometimes have to drive in a city that ranks among the worst in the US in traffic. In that environment the power of the Accord V6 really does reach the level of a safety feature, in that my options for getting out of a dangerous situation in the Civic would be severely curtailed.

To put that back in the terms of this discussion: a 500 or Panda with the either the 100-horse 1.4 gasser or the 1.3 Multijet diesel would be fine for my daily commute, But for the nastier Atlanta or Houston drive, I'd stick to a bigger car with a V6 and good reflexes (Alfa Brera or 159?), in self-defense.

kyfdx

In that environment the power of the Accord V6 really does reach the level of a safety feature, in that my options for getting out of a dangerous situation in the Civic would be severely curtailed.


And yet, 50% of the cars you are trying to merge with are indeed, the same under-powered cars that are safety hazards, by your definition...

I love more power... and, yes, it increases my options.. but, I can be just as safe with the four-cylinder equivalent. Your chosen ride is a perfect example.. There is no way the smaller engined Accord could be classified as a safety hazard.. If the issue is merging, then we spent the '60s and early '70s with the same interstate speeds that we have now. And, the cars then had glacial acceleration compared to even today's four bangers.. The current horsepower race is a joke. Our 2003 BMW had a six-cylinder with just 184 HP... a little less than an Accord EX 4-cyl., today. Sure seemed like enough back in those dark ages, all of six years ago...

Dang! I'm off-topic, again!

sorry,
kyfdx

stephen987

And yet, 50% of the cars you are trying to merge with are indeed, the same under-powered cars that are safety hazards, by your definition...

I never used the term "safety hazard" to refer to vehicles with less power. Stop putting words in my keyboard.

All I said is that in the cutthroat traffic of Atlanta freeways (frequently 90-100 mph), I feel safer when I have the extra power.

The real safety hazard is the drivers who are driving too fast, not paying attention, working out their on-the-job frustrations in traffic, etc. But since I have to deal with those (insert expletive here) whenever I am on those roads, more power (and better brakes, and more secure handling) = better safety.

To take this back toward the topic: is there any chance that Fiat might try something radical to get the attention of the market, like offering a high-performance diesel in every model it sells in the US? That would really shake things up. They have diesels in 1.3, 1.9, and (in the Alfas) 2.4 liter sizes that at least on paper look to have a lot of potential.

nvbanker

those of us old enuf to remember the 70s will not accept Fiat performance in exchange for mileage. we remember all too well the Pinto & the Vega and trying to poke them up an on-ramp. US driving demands the performance of our US designed cars.

stephen987

US driving demands the performance of our US designed cars.

Buyers have indicated their preferences on this. The US-designed and built Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Nissan Altima were the number 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 in sales in the US market in calendar year 2008. Only the Ford and Chevy full size pickups sold more.

Mr_Shiftright

No American auto company has ever emerged from Chapter 11 successfully. (so far).

I think a 12 second car is fine for American roads, if you know how to drive it--which means skillful use of a manual transmission or manual shifting of the automatic. You'll have to stay on your toes, that's true, but you can't blame the car for lazy driver habits, i.e., "I'm too lazy to downshift, so give me 100 more HP"

The old diesel Mercedes were 19 second cars and people are still driving those around without dying in large numbers, so.........

Fiat's biggest challenge (and a formidable one) is the dealer network and parts network. Gearing that up is a huge...and i do mean HUGE...investment in capital and I don't think Fiat has the $$$ to buy *big* into the American market. How? On the backs of a Ch 11 company?

Visiting Host (big fan of Italian cars by the way)

stephen987

I think a 12 second car is fine for American roads, if you know how to drive it--which means skillful use of a manual transmission or manual shifting of the automatic.

Is such "skillful use" the norm in your neighborhood, Shifty? Here in Georgia there hasn't been an effective driver's ed program in years, hardly anyone drives a stick, and the idea of slowing down and using the headlights in fog or rain is utterly lost on the majority.

Truth to tell, I'm not sure my adrenal glands are up to driving among these morons without the benefit of too much horsepower.

Or at least too much torque. A big torquey turbodiesel might be the ticket. . .

PS: I had one of those Mercedes diesels--not a 19-second one, but a 15 second 300SD. Not much "get up" but lots of "go." One of the most terrifying drives of my life was in that car, at 85-100 mph in bumper to bumper traffic on the Georgiabahn just north of Atlanta, about 1:30 am. But that's another story.

iluvmysephia1

Fiat if merging with Chrysler can put their cars on U.S. Chrysler dealer lots, right? And salespeople are going to have to learn about Fiat's a while before trying to sell them. But aren't dealers going to be one and the same for both company's rigs? The service personnel are going to need to learn to work on Fiat's and if diesels are introduced more so.

Parts supply and build-up represents another animal altogether, though. There is a lot of expense one can only imagine there. That could be a potential problem for Fiatsler.

bpizzuti

We have 65 MPH+ limits now, plus the weight of cars has gone up, necessitating more power. Those 4 cylinder jobs (hey I drive one myself) are already on the highway and have had time to get up to speed. Trying to get onto a highway with a 12 second 0-60 time, where it takes 6-8 seconds to clear the ramp, and you have maybe 100 feet to merge, is asking for trouble...you're doing what, maybe 45 trying to merge with 70 MPH traffic? My heart goes into my throat sometimes doing it in my 2.3l Mazda3.

This is a factor that has to be considered. If they can get the 0-60 times down around 10 seconds it should be fine. I don't think that's asking too much, really. That's all dependent on the gearing. It could take forever to get from 60 to 70, who cares? just get the thing up to highway cruising speed before you run out of ramp/merge room. FIat should be able to do it, especially with the torquey diesels.

berri

If the Government would have stayed out of it, Fiat would have done better for themselves to buy Saturn, and their dealer network, and start marketing cars through the Saturn brand. Chrysler has nothing to offer them, their car lines are incompatible, and we are throwing good money after bad.

I think you make a good point

berri

Just as I've always heard - this entire project is doomed.........and so are the cars, and ultimately the company. Fiat was run out of the US once already, and it will happen again.

I don't think FIAT does that well in European quality surveys. Also they didn't really challenge Deere and Caterpillar when they took over Allis Chalmers years ago. I think its just a shake down to get a better standing in bankruptcy court at getting some cheap assets, or a precursor to getting in on GM or their Opel subsidiary shortly.

joe0302

I think a smart move . That Astra just needs to be tweaked a little to be a true European drivin' machine ,check one out. This car is the answer to the RSX Type S in Europe today. Saturn dumb it down.
Watch out for that Kia Soul, when that gets mods.(Mazda might loose it's smile)
Ford giving 100 people a chance to try their best selling car in Europe the Focus hatch. (which is dumb to do )we need that car now,or Ford should forget about the 4 generations they lost.(only people under 40 get the cars)
Lastly that guy knocking VW the 2010 free maintence for 3 yrs. I think that says it all.
I have a 300HP BMW the only thing wrong with it is,that it won't pass a gas station. (you gota luv it like a sepher) :shades: :shades:

stephen987

Um, dude?

iluvmysephia1

that's a whole lot of information smashed in to a few small paragraphs, man. Your comment on the Astra has reminded me of the GM Volt project's European friend, and how cool looking it looks, cooler than the Volt looks. But I believe it's an Opel, an all-electric/combination gasoline extension motor powertrain like the Chevy Volt, but I believe made for the European market. To just toss another frisbee out there for y'all. :P

garyan

NVBanker, there was a recent set of product focus groups that looked at Fiat products for the US Market and most of them scored quite low - same reaction as you have. The Alfa Romeo's are still popular and some of the smaller newer models had some appeal - but most did not..so it could be a long road as you suggest. There.....so that is something written by someone who has seen some research.....

nortsr1

this question out to this group...as I really do not know the answer.
How long would it take to get one of the better selling Fiat car models over here. That means it would have to take "how long to pass our safety requirements, get them certified for U.S. sale, get enough of them to the Chrysler dealerships to sell, service, train the Chrysler mechanics, getting a parts, supply set-up, advertising, etc " ?????
Meanwhile, Chrysler is not selling a lot of their own vehicles to show any profit, but a continual LOSS of money?????
It seems to me it would require quite a bit of time and money?????

stephen987

How long would it take to get one of the better selling Fiat car models over here.

That depends on several factors. The first is the legal angle--while European crash tests and emission tests are now pretty strict, they are not identical to those used in the US. The government could issue a statement that it will accept the results of those tests, and thus Fiat would not have to re-test the cars. But there is nothing that guarantees the government would be willing to do so, and lobbyists for the Big Two might argue against it. Still, the engineering differences are less than they would have been 15 years ago, before the EU began ironing out its own standards.

Second is the manufacturing angle. Fiat has plants all over the world, and each one builds somewhat different versions of different cars for different markets. The decision would have to be made: where would US models come from? Would they be imports from the plants in Turkey, Poland, Argentina? Do those plants have any excess capacity? Or would they have to retool an existing Chrysler plant before any cars could come to market?

Getting parts and service up and running would be a major hassle, even if we assume that they'll be using the existing Chrysler dealer network. Those dealerships vary widely in quality and not all of them have the same inventory software for parts, or the same equipment for service. Some standardization would be a good move==BEFORE a single Fiat is sold here.

Advertising, marketing plans, and so on are probably already underway. Fiat claims it can have cars in the US market in eighteen months. One hopes it will be done right, even if it takes a few months longer than expected. A rush job would dramatically increase the potential for disaster.

It will be difficult. I hope it will work, though.

stephen987

there was a recent set of product focus groups that looked at Fiat products for the US Market and most of them scored quite low - same reaction as you have.

I'd like to see which ones. Is the study available online?

mrnimmo

Can't say that I've ever heard of anyone, even third hand, who said they were really hoping to buy a fiat.

This one has disaster written all over it. At least fiat isn't paying much and maybe they'll get some cash when they ship what's left of DC to China for scrap metal.

Too bad really. I also wanted a Jeep, but not a 17mpg Jeep.

The UAW strangled itself to death.

gagrice

Isn't Kenworth a subsidiary of Chrysler? They just signed an order for their hybrid Tractor. It may be the best in the industry. Will they be included in the C11?

KIRKLAND, Wash., Mar 05, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Kenworth Truck Company announced today its largest ever hybrid truck order. The order from Coca-Cola Enterprises, the world's largest manufacturer and distributor of Coca-Cola products, is for 150 Kenworth T370 diesel-electric tractors and 35 Kenworth T370 hybrid trucks, all of which will be on the road this year. The Kenworth T370 tractors (rated at 55,000 lb. GCW) are the largest hybrid delivery truck on the road in North America.