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High End Luxury Cars



  • This forum certainly has died down...

    Anyone have Phaeton sales figures? Is it doing as bad as predicted?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Phaeton sales are up a whopping 4,595% thru July of this year as opposed to last for a total of 939 sales thru Jul-04 and 90 in Jul-04.

    here's the link to press release:,+02:01+PM
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    90 Phaetons sold last month.

    I like the Phaeton and think it's a very good car inside and out, but the name "VW" just doesn't have the cache among upper echelon buyers.
  • pathdocpathdoc Posts: 126
    And the trunk is too small for such a large luxury sedan.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I think the problem with the Phaeton is not necessarily the VW badge. The success of the Touareg shows people are willing to spend decent dough (look the the V10's price tag) for a legitmate offering.

    The problem with the Phaeton is that it is *boring* - a plain vanilla luxury sedan that is porkier than all rivals and features ultra conservative design along with the VW badge. Not special enough. They should have done something a bit more daring - like an ultra-luxury wagon or 2-door with hatchback or so. They would sell just as many, and yet it would embed the VW brand image with some "specialness".

    The problem with the Phaeton is not the badge, in my opinion. It's the car - it's going against better cars, loses the battle fair and swquare, and that is that.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Does anybody think the Cadillac XLR will be a sales dud? What were they thinking. People are not going to spend 75G's on a Caddy. Haven't they learned their lesson from the Allante.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I think it is mainly the badge/brand reputation. I'm not saying that it's necessarily a better car than the S, 7, or LS, but I bet that if the exact same car wore a star, checkered flag, or L, it would sell much more than 90.

    VW sells very few V10 Touaregs, relative to V6 and V8 Touaregs. Also, as SUVs go, the Touareg isn't that different in price from other non-luxury makes. The 4-runner and Armada are up their in price as well, and neither wear a luxury badge.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I do not think Touareg shoppers even consider 4runners, and I don't even know what an Armada is, which comes to show. The Touareg competes against the boutique soccer mom SUV brands, and does well, showing that VW *can* compete brand wise.

    The Phaeton is known as overweight and as an incompetent handler. The only thinbg going for it is the interior finish, and rationally that ain't going to cut it against the established opposition in its niche. Wrong marketing strategy.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    You misunderstood my post. It has nothing to do with whether Touareg shoppers cross shop 4runners and Armadas.

    You said:
    "The success of the Touareg shows people are willing to spend decent dough (look the the V10's price tag) for a legitmate offering."

    The Touareg is essentially a $40,000 SUV. There are many $40,000 non-luxury name plate SUVs that sell well, such as the 4runner and the Armada. For whatever reason people are more willing to spend $40k for a non-luxury name plate SUV.

    On the other hand, a $70k sedan from a non-luxury name is a different story. I don't know how it works in Europe, but in the status-minded US, a $70k VW sedan is doomed from the start, unless it is head and shoulders better than the competition, which it is not.

    The LS430 is not exactly a well handling car, yet it sells like hotcakes.

    There is a reason why Toyota created the Lexus nameplate in the US instead of selling Celsiors (LS) and Aristos (GS) as Toyotas, like they did in Japan until very recently.
  • hjcanterhjcanter Posts: 31
    How can that trunk be so small, compared to the Audi? 4 cubic feet less storage space!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I wonder how many of you who are so quick to label the LS430 as not a well-handling car have ever driven one recently?
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Yeah, I've driven LS430 both recently and frequently ......... naturally, BMW sets the standard for performance and road manners and the Lexus has other strengths.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    The key is that no one is questioning the existence of the V10 Touareg - it does not sell like the 6 and 8cyls, but it sells better than VW expected and has been widely labelled as "desirable". So VW can sell an expensive car. The Phaeton doesn't sell because it is not good enough to compete against the other established cars - as a newcomer to a market segment you need a new and easily discernible value proposition. The Phaeton does not have it. It is a very basic product strategy flaw.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      I don't see the "Need" for the Phaeton..Doesn't VW have Audi for that expressed purpose? I think Toyota was smart enough to segregate their product lines along Scion, Toyota, and Lexus. Each of these lines have distinct qualities. For historical note, the LS was made for the US market and released later in Japan. In some ways, it's always been the "real" Lexus and not a rebadged Toyota.

      I'll agree with you that BMW sets the bar in performance sedans. What we Lexus fans often complain about is the other posters tendancy to label a LS430 as a car with Barge like handling. The LS430 never gunned for the BMW customer, I think that's what Infinti is trying to do.

    I'm posting from London at the moment..Can anyone explain why Mercedes would build an A Class?? Wasn't Chrysler supposed to cover the sub $30K bracket for them? I cringe everytime one passes me. I also have seen 1 LS430 in my whole time here. You can compare that to about 50 BMW and MB's. Lexus really needs to work on their European market share.

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I'd be shocked if the V10 Touareg sold in any significant numbers.

    I think the biggest factor in the sluggishness of Phaeton sales is the fact that its a VW.

    I guess we'll just have to disagree.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    ALL of Japan needs to work on its European market share, not just Lexus. Toyota may be putting the hurt on Ford and GM here, but not in Europe. I think part of the reason is the type of cars that Europeans drive. Obviously BMW, Mercedes, VW, Peugot/Citroen, Renault, Opel\Vauxhall do very well, its their backyard, and they know their customers. Japanese cars have traditionally been softly sprung and more suited for American tastes rather than European, and they are only just recently learning how to make proper sports cars, aside from S2000, NSX, and GT-R that is.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    On the Touareg V10, you are wrong in your perception, it is a success. No doubts there.

    On the VW label being the cause for the Phaeton's lack of success we can certainly agree to disagree, since the only sure thing is that it is not successful anywhere, and the reasons are not easy to prove or disprove.
  • The last post I see is #6636 from Pablo on August 7th at 10:55pm. Is it possible that there have not been any subsequent posts?? Or is Pat doing a little house cleaning?
  • Not much action in the last few days.

    Anyone want to talk about ALLANTE'S
  • hjcanterhjcanter Posts: 31
    I do not want to talk about Allante's, but has anyone heard about the new Audi S8 (2005.5 or 2006)?
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