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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here is another link to Environmental Working Group Website. Pulled up page on Chromium. Lots of good information on the whole timeline. Exponent was right in the thick of it, but Dennis Paustenbach took the most heat. Worse fact is Bush gave Paustenbach an appointment????

    http://www.ewg.org/featured/219
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I could not find anything about Shane's education. Have no idea. Yes, he sure did work for Center for Auto Safety I saw, and that was founded by Nader. Not sure if Nader is connected to group any longer or not.

    But it is nice to see some advocacy groups sticking up for consumer safety issues. At least a balance is maintained. Win some and lose some.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Posts: 326
    edited February 2010
    The FBI Tuesday raided the offices of Denso (pedals and electronics), Yazaki (harnesses) and Tokai Rika (electronic shift mechanisms and the pushbutton on/off switch)

    http://www.latimes.com/business/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-us-toyota-supplier-inves- - tigation,0,4943178.story

    http://jalopnik.com/5479384/breaking-fbi-raids-three-toyota-suppliers-in-detroit- -
  • roho1roho1 Posts: 317
    edited February 2010
    CTS headquarters are in Indiana where the Congressman represents.

    Nice timing by the FBI on the Denso raid. Raid is reported to have nothing to do with the safety issue. hmm.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    sharon....it would be refreshing to see Toyota, or any company who has hidden/dismissed/sidestepped their safety responsibilities just man up. They could say "look, we screwed up. We'll cover any damages to those suffered by using our products (vehicles). We understand there will be litigants that may rightfully or wrongfully take advantage. We will defend ourselves against those who are attempting to do so wrongfully. But, those who suffered material loss, injury, and even death, we'll do our best to make them whole."

    That would really be refreshing, and truly send a message that they take responsibility for their actions, and will be proactive in rectifying them.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Seems like more bad news for Toyota only because companies are some of their suppliers. Two appear to be Japanese suppliers??
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    Steve....you may be correct. Maybe it is a good time to buy a Toyota. I know even though stock levels are way up, at least the dealers around me (SW OH) don't have that many that they can sell. I can only speculate it's because they may have new Toyotas on the ground, only a few have been fitted with all the alleged fixes from the recalls. Maybe they're doing the alleged "fix" as part of their prep work after the cars are sold....not sure.

    Unless Toyota has given the dealers some unknown incentives to move the cars (something Edmunds could investigate, perhaps?), the prices on them today were the same prices you would have received a month ago.

    Also, again just an observation of the Toyota dealers around me, they seemed to have shifted their focus more to the used car side by stocking their used lot, in some cases 2X the stock they had before. Maybe that's how they're weathering this storm until there's a final resolution.

    No matter. Only one way to find out how price sensitive the dealers are on new Toyotas. Go into their showroom and make a ridiculous offer and see how far they're willing to go.

    Still, on a personal basis, regardless of price, I'd want to see how this shakes out before I'd even set foot in a Toyota dealership. I'd personally be very frustrated that after the dust clears, I'd have to take my new car back for some sort of additional recall.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,310
    edited February 2010
    >Only one way to find out how price sensitive the dealers are on new Toyotas. Go into their showroom and make a ridiculous offer and see how far they're willing to go.

    If they match past performance locally on their sticker price and fees:

    They'll have an ADM sticker for extra because of the cost of having the Japanese owner come here to testify.

    They'll have an advertising charge because of all the free advertising they have gotten through the last several mnths.

    They'll have charge for driving a potentially dangerous vehicle off the delivery semi because it put their workers at risk.

    And they'll have an extra charge for their extra costs in having more mechanics employed and working longer hours to repair the cars toyota delivered to them and millions of customers.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Wouldn't your suggestion be wonderful!! Will never happen. Since they hired Exponent to defend their electronics I knew the only thing they wanted was a report saying no problems with electronics. Exponent will provide the report as they want, and biggest question is - will it also be fraudulant - same as when they helped their former Vice President Dennis Paustenbach do the fraudulant scientific study both being paid by PGE saying chromium does not cause cancer. Fact is chromium does cause high rates of many serious health problems!! I sent some of the substantiation links last night. Not good when a toxicologist's study findings can be bought. But happens.

    I was really pulling for Toyota, but have became upset as facts unraveled. Now I have many reservations. Words have little meaning, past, present, ongoing actions and true/real facts speak volumns. And I fully understand corporations. My husbnd was CEO of corporation. My son is presently CEO of corporation. I can see a corporate side, but I don't like what I am seeing from Toyota now. Hiring Exponent was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I do seem to disagree a little regarding all the UA/SUA events being floor mats. Some probably were. Some driver error. But lots do not met that criteria. But after implementation of ETC Toyota did have dramatic increase of complaints. And complaints continued. Timeline does appear to indicate NHTSA and Toyota did not take care of the issues as time progressed. The JOKE of floormats and pedal fix recall 2009 & 2010 are only a legal protection for Toyota so no one finds out what is really going on. Brake Override implementation announcement seems to support my theory since I heard Toyota announcment November 25, 2009. Then Toyota hired Exponent. So they get - report no elecronic problem and further research done by Exponent will most likely/probably say same. Exponent is a defense firm. Their reports will only support their clients. Toyota wants to try to avoid lawsuits and get a good defense with Exponent reports and testimony. If legally Exponent can do it without getting caught they will indeed do it. They have done before.

    Toyota does need to go back and redesign. And secretly they probably/may have done already. I do not respect Toyota for using Exponent. Toyota could have used many other great more neutral firms. If they would have done that, then I could see myself taking a different position and not being so critical. I was already aware of Exponent as I am a medical professional. Participated in many meetings with medical experts analyzing medical research.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Many thanks for the explanation. What kind of work do you do? I am sure not an auto engineering expert. My son does do development/engineering, but have not spoken with him about Gilbert's findings. I do know Gilbert said his findings were only a beginning step if such could occur.

    Are these specs you mentioned in ABC news report?? Must go back and try to find.

    So how do Gilbert's test findings stand???
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited February 2010
    sharon....like you, I wanted Toyota to pull out of this in better fashion. Didn't happen.

    Also like you, when I first heard about the floormat "fix", I thought it seemed like an incorrect diagnosis. I was trying to picture how anyone could shove a floormat in such a way to make the accelerator depress all the way to the floor, and stay there. Pretty tough to do.

    When they came back with the "sticky pedal" idea, I thought....well that's entirely possible. But, as they announced that somehow the heavy plastic and metal accelerator assemblies "absorbed moisture" (something that I couldn't fathom) and distorted to the point where they'd stick, I thought...well, that doesn't sound quite correct. Then, they announced a shim to fix it. I began to get more skeptical. And, then they said they would "shave" the accelerator pedals, I thought..."no way". Then, Toyota started finger pointing (specifically at CTS). That's when I began to believe that they were trying to defer blame to someone else, and not indetifying the real cause.

    That's when the reports came out about people shifting through all of their gears to get their Toyota/Lexus to stop, but were unsuccessful. And,. then the Smith's incident, in addition to the CHP's family tragic deaths came to light. That's when it became clear to me that this was strictly about Toyota limiting their liability, not finding the correct fix. And, the correct fix was buried somewhere in the electronics and/or software.

    The memo from/to Inanba about how much money Toyota saved by "winning millions" by fighting against implementing safety devices and recalls...well that kind of sealed the deal for me.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,049
    edited February 2010
    I thought I saw a report that Toyota was going to be giving the dealers some more aid. I don't know if that will translate to cheaper prices - Toyota will probably do consumer incentives for that.

    Btw, (and this is for you too, Sharonkl), I found a newer resume for Dave Gilbert - he got his PhD in 2006, so we can safely call him Dr. Gilbert. link

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    Steve...so he is PhD, after all. Not that I questioned his expertise. It just confirms it even more.

    While I doubt this will happen, if I were Toyota, knowing what a Prof makes (not much, at least not one who's tendered), I'd hire him immediately and pay him a big, fat salary to help them get out of this mess.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,049
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, I screwed that up. The vita I found and posted the other days was from 2002. Finally found the faculty listing at the university for the auto tech department.

    Also found that lots of donations from Toyota, including an '09 Matrix and $100,000 in cash in '08 were made to Gilbert's program at the university. (link)

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    great finds steve!! :D thanks for the post! :shades:
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    GG, you've pretty much summed it up for Toyota. I've worked in corporate America all my life and have seen some incredible boon doggles. IBM losing out to Microsoft and Intel, Enron, World Com. But to me this is mind boggling how a company can throw away the very core of it's reputation in the span of a few months.
  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    But to me this is mind boggling how a company can throw away the very core of it's reputation in the span of a few months.

    I agree .. while I've never owned a Toyota, my folks have owned three over the years ('73 Corona, '83 Celica and a '91 Camry). Always decent cars, but certainly not perfect either.

    I've gotta believe some folks at Harvard Business School are writing up the case study on Toyota .. I'd love to see their take on the whole situation.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    Mike....gotta say, it will make for much discussion and research in business schools. that's for certain.

    P&G is in my home town....probably one of the greatest product development and marketing companies in the world. When the "tainted" Tylenol scare hit, and even though Tylenol was made by Johnson & Johnson, P&G pulled every bottle of anything they sold which could be ingested off the shelves and trashed those products.. They immediately designed what is now "tamper resistant caps" that we're all familiar with today. And, only then did they restock the grocer's shelves (which was a week or two later).

    Did they have to do that? No, at least not at the time. Were they affected? No, they didn't make Tylenol. But, they did it. It cost millions to do (probably billions in today's money)..

    There's a big difference between cars and pills. The lesson is, identify every potential cause early. Do not sell anything that can be considered faulty with regards to safety. Remedy it quickly. Then, and only then, move on.

    Even though I think it's too late for Toyota to take the same approach (obviously), they'd do well to heed those lessons.

    Right now, every bit of quality and safety marketing they've ever done, decades of work, have been shot all to hell. It's going to be tougher to regain it, than it was to build it to begin with.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,364
    I've gotta believe some folks at Harvard Business School are writing up the case study on Toyota .. I'd love to see their take on the whole situation.

    In the words of a former VP candidate, "you betcha!"
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    It was not real easy finding Dr. Gilbert's bio. There are two Dr. David Gilberts at SIU. I thought when I found the first one Dr. David G. Gilbert in the Psychology dept. something was amiss. The one we are concerned with is Dr. David W Gilbert. I would say he is more qualified to speak on the subject of DBW than anyone in our government or that Toyota has offered testimony from.
  • jdm9jdm9 Posts: 38
    Thanks for the link Sharon , I think the evidence is mounting that during the most serious UA events, in most vehicles the brakes didnt perform well and it appears that there is a fair amount of documentaion that suggests shifting to nuetral also did not work well if at all in the most serious injury events. No one though that I can find goes into any detail at all about the results of trying to turn off the key while experiencing first hand a UA event. Does anyone out there have that personal (not conjecture, as weve gone through that already) first hand experience?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    "...what kind of work..."

    Mostly retired but still responsible for the "trim tab factor" at the company the DW and I founded back in '72. That adds up to almost 40 years in the real time, process control, computer applications market.

    IMMHO Gilbert over-stepped by shorting the gas pedal sensors to a ~5 volt source in order to show an instance of UA, just to get attention to his more valid findings. The REAL point he should have been making was that the Denso's overall system health monitoring firmware sub-routines did not discover that the two gas pedal sensors output signal was the same. The monitoring software should have almost INSTANTLY detected the short and just as instantly put the entire system into "limp home" mode.

    The voltage specification, 0.02 volts, came from two factory shop/repair manuals, an early RX330 and a 2010 RX350. Even with the two signals shorted together it would not be unusual for the short to have just enough resistance to allow for more than a 0.02 volt difference. And here, with Gilbert, we have an INTENTIONAL direct short that apparently has enough resistance to allow the two signals to still be that much different.

    Or the firmware system health monitoring system was completely "out to lunch".

    In my opinion once DBW was adopted the very next step should have been to disable the throttle opening servomotor the INSTANT and substantive level of brake pressure was sensed/detected. But then we should keep in mind that Toyota/etc was forced to adopt DBW under duress/distress.

    They needed to find a way, QUICKLY find a way, to cover-up the design flaw that was inadvertently incorporated in the RX300's U140E/F transaxle now that it was to be adopted fleetwide. The new design was much more fuel efficient vs the A140 design.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Steve thanks for the information - so Dave Gilbert is Dr. Dave Gilbert. I have been out trying to find more information about Dr. Gilbert this morning.

    Do you think Southern Illinois University Auto Technology Department being ranked #1 in nation will have meaning??? It appears auto electronics is one of Dave Gilberts specialties. What influence will his report have??? He did state what he did most definitely falls under research guidelines for studies.

    In testimony Dave Gilbert did state he had started project all on his owned as he had just bought a Toyota truck. News media hype seemed to entice his interest in pursuing it seems. Then once he discovered something, he said he did make calls to Toyota, NHTSA, and then Sean Kane at Safety, Research & Strategies. Kane was back to him immediately. The other two were not. And thus Kane paid him $1800 plus $150 per hour, plus supplied $4000 in needed equipment to proceed ahead. This is just peanuts! Compare to what Toyota pays Exponent - over $1,000,000+++. Since Gilbert really has no real huge financial gains or biases I can find - just don't put him in same category as Exponent. As you have probably already seen I do not like Exponent because of their work& what they with PGE chromium pollution here. Saying chromium doesn't cause cancer?? Facts do speak volumns.

    I saw Omar Trinidad had worked with Gilbert on this study conducted at University. See Omar's education background not yet posted.

    So what is your prediction about what will come of Gilbert's finding that were presented as only a good starting point for Toyota????
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...brakes didn't perform well.."

    Have you seen the close up pictures of the CHP officers brake rotor and pads..??

    The problem isn't really with the brakes, the simple fact is that an engine operating WOT at a decent highway speed can too easily overcome the brakes. More especially so, it seems to me, if the engine is driving the front, PRIMARY braking, wheels. And I am still of the suspecion that with so much torque applied to the gear teeth of the transaxle's drum clutches the clutch disks do not easily separate even when the hydraulic pressure is removed.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,049
    edited February 2010
    Even though I think it's too late for Toyota to take the same approach (obviously), they'd do well to heed those lessons.

    It may not be too long before new cars come equipped with a wireless connection. Tuesday night software updates.

    For severe problems discovered, the dealers could send out a signal that kills all stopped cars until the new code can be installed and the car rebooted.

    Re Dr. Gilbert, the industry must be a bit concerned. They are trying to taint him for accepting the $1800 "witness" fee he was paid by Kane and the lawyers.

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...calls to Toyota(/etc), NHTSA, and then Sean Kane..."

    And no doubt Toyota/etc, in turn, sent the "call" into the "black hole" called Denso.

    NHTSA sent the "call" to Toyota/etc.........DITTO...!!

    While Dr. Gilbert's findings are important, they are FAR from "on-point" insofar as UA is concerned. Other than indicating the horrible sloppiness of Denso's firmware code specification and composition, that is.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited February 2010
    Dr. Gilbert, the industry must be a bit concerned. They are trying to taint him for accepting the $1800 "witness" fee he was paid by Kane and the lawyers.

    Steve...I agree. That's really "mouse nuts". And, by them trying to taint Dr Gilbert's testimony tells me they don't want to go down that rabbit hole. That also tells me Toyota is afraid of what they might find, or worse, already know but don't want anyone else to know.

    What they should be doing is hiring him to help them find out the real culprit (If they don't already know) and help them to respond with a plan of action to alleviate it.

    I still believe Toyota already knows the answer, however. They just don't like it.

    You do the wireless download "thing" in cars, you'll get the privacy advocates stating that they don't want that because it gives the manufacturer a way to reach them that they just don't want.

    Then, what happens if the connection is somehow interfered with and can't finish. Is the car unusable at that point? I know I can brick my iphone by doing that (don't ask me how I know).
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Wow, you do have extensive experience!! Who is DW???

    Now since we know University of Southern Illinois Auto Technology Department is ranked #1 in nation and one of Dave Gilbert's specialties appear to be auto electronics - wouldn't he be aware??? Dave Gilbert does have a masters degree. Steve, our nice host sent me info. Gilbert had stated what he did still fell within correct parameters of conducting test studies??

    Do you have a link where Gilbert says he did use 0.02 voltage?? From what you said does appear he actually did. Right from the manuel.

    I know during testimony and what he reported to ABC News he felt this, if it did exist, was just a starting point for Toyota.. I forget what/ where he felt he saw some problems. But vaguely recall something about failsafe system too. Know he did say Toyota system was the easiest system to get into. Seems to be same possibility you indicated.

    Wow - sounds like his study should have been conducted to point more at the failsafe systems issues with recognizing all glitches small-large. I have not seen his actual written study finding. I am use to analyzing medical research studies, so would have been interesting to analyze.

    Seems like you and my son totally agree with a need for brake override type system w DBW. When I first spoke with him - first thing he asked. Wanted me to check. I had no idea, and off I went. No brake override. My son had said Toyota is almost 10 years behind the time with brake override. He does development/engineering for Porsche/Audi/BMW/Bentley/VW/etc. And now know most of these do have.

    Now my impressions - Toyota is probably/may be aware of these issues. Fact - They announced brake override Nov 25, 2009. This was before second recall. So then any glitches in electronics causing UA/SUA brakes would win out.

    Is this correct assumption?? I had understood it was. Just checking for sure.
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