Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

wwest

"...but it still does not make any sense to me..."

It would if you knew all the FACTS.

Apparently the Prius owners manual has a caution note regarding putting the shifter in neutral while underway.

This is a cruise control firmware flaw.

Read:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/251

and then read post #2647, 2662 and 2664 on this thread.

doidoadiesel

What are the FACTS? The 911 caller simply says they have no brakes, the caller does not respond when asked if they can turn off the ignition and there is no mention of neutral and the only thing I hear the driver say is Pray-Pray. There is plenty of evidence that - at minimum- driving skills are lacking, and little hard evidence of what caused the acceleration And what does a Prius have to do with the Saylor case in which they were driving a Lexus 350?

wwest

The testimony of Ms Smith along with Sikes Prius case, and the 2010 Prius recall yields a great deal more evidence as to where to begin looking for the UA problem.

doidoadiesel

but the Saylor case and like I said I still don't understand it. The Smith testimony is a little strange too - did praying actually stop the car? Fortunately they have the car in the Sikes case and hopefully someone will get to the bottom of it. On the Prius, throwing the car into neutral is probably not great for the car, but I'll bet it would be a lot healthier than a 94 mph collision. I think there is something going on but that it is a Poisson distribution, extremely rare.

houdini1

You are obviously confused or just purposely mixing up the info from two separate incidents. Try to get your facts straight.

The cause of the ES 350 accident was a stuck throttle caused by having two sets of floor mats. That is the official conclusion. Yes, it is tragic, but accidents happen.

All these other incidents are pure hysteria, people not wanting to admit that they made a mistake, or just kooks.

gagrice

but there is just something weird about this - the caller and his wife are obviously scared to death...is the driver?

Put yourself into the brother-in-laws seat. He is calling 911 to report the car he is in isscreaming with a WOT. He said they tried everything and the car would not stop or slow down. Now if Saylor the CHP was going crazy and not trying his best to stop the car, don't you think the BIL would have mentioned that little fact? I have seen so many illogical explanations here and no one has provided solid evidence that an ES350 with WOT going 120 MPH can be shifted into neutral or even shut off with a 3 seconds hold on the button. You would think that Lexus would have made that test with witnesses for the impending court trial. And I do agree it was the over-sized floor mat that caused the WOT. On this accident the disk brakes were on fire. May have been the cause of the fire when they crashed.

gagrice

All these other incidents are pure hysteria, people not wanting to admit that they made a mistake, or just kooks.

If you are right. Why is it predominantly limited to Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Most of the complaints on the ODI site are long before the Saylor crash last year. I just don't find it logical that so many more people owning Toyotas would be incompetent compared to the other brands. And no matter how they try to shuffle and cherry pick the UA or brake failure complaints, Toyota is WAY out in the lead. As many here have said. Where there is smoke there must be fire.

wwest

"..stuck throttle...two sets of floor mats.."

It is really conclusive that the floor mats were the source of the problem..??

No, simply no way to determine.

The previous driver of that ES350 says he reported the floor mat problem to the dealer. That would indicate he had encountered the stuck pedal problem yet he survived. What was his "procedure" that he avoided the same fate..??

I find it rather impossible to believe that the Saylor vehicle travelled as far as it did and at HIGH speed without the driver doing everything within reason to bring it to a stop.

doidoadiesel

After the Jim Jones tradgedy and the many suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel and Afghanistan and the 9-11 airplane affairs, and all the weird cop shows where spouses kill their spouses, and people calmly shotgun their entire household and mothers drown and suffocate their kids and then go party there is nothing that humans can do that would surprise me, even people who appear to have wonderful relationships. I know, it is a sick idea, but there it is. You think it is obvious when people are crazy? Crazy people can be very cool and detached. I hope someone gets to the bottom of all this though. I'm glad I don't have a push-button start.

gagrice

I'm glad I don't have a push-button start.

I agree with you there. I just did not hear anything in that 911 call that would lead me to believe anything but Saylor was trying his best to avoid other cars and stop his loaner car. The burnt up brakes tell the tale. We may never know if he tried to get it in neutral as the EDR data was conveniently destroyed according to Lexus. They had the only reader in the USA. That case is closed except for how many $million the family gets.

sharonkl

Here is NHTSA Inspection Report - Lexus - Saylor Family
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/NHTSA_Santee_Inspect.pdf

wwest

Had anyone actually put a RX400h Lexus brand rubber floor mat in an ES350 to see if the gas pedal can be trapped in the WOT position. And even if trapped how easy to release...??

The one in the picture appears to have a cutout area on both right and left top sides.

djohnson1

I'm still thinking we may never know the cause of many of these runaway cases. Still think it's an electrical problem too hard to ever replicate. Met a guy Sat. night who is a troubleshooter for an industrial machine. We discussed Toyo UA situation. He agreed that low speed incidents involving stopping the car are probably driver error and high speed on highway electrical problems. One of the machines he fixed, and it was only one time, was a small voltage spike that put the controller of the machine into runaway mode. He said they were very lucky ever to find it. Had never heard of it before. They fixed it by adding a grounded shield.

BTW, "I think there is something going on but that it is a Poisson distribution," you made me do some homework there. If I ever knew the meaning of that, I forgot it as quick as I could!!! (It means a very rare random event.)
PS Isn't reading about this a wonderful obscession???? LOL!

djohnson1

From Washington Post:
No easy answer for the Toyota problem

By Jeremy Anwyl
Tuesday, March 16, 2010; A19

Lately it seems that each day brings another report of a driver's terrifying experience with an out-of-control Toyota. There have been at least four congressional hearings in as many weeks.

Even the most confident consumer has to wonder what is causing all this and, more fundamentally, whether Toyotas are safe to drive.

The second question is easier to answer. Despite the flurry of reports, incidents with speeding vehicles are rare. And vehicles today, including Toyotas, are safer than ever.

While we have heard much recently about "smart pedals," floor mats and sticky throttles, it has not been made clear what is behind the incidents of sudden acceleration. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has been investigating sudden vehicle acceleration for a few decades, but it has little new to offer since the 1989 Audi investigation. During that time the agency reported that many incidents of sudden or unintended acceleration by Audi drivers were caused when drivers stepped on the gas instead of the brake.

Ultimately, Audi and other automakers implemented features that required brakes to be depressed when shifting gears out of park, and reports of sudden acceleration when drivers started their cars dropped noticeably.

But as vehicles have become more advanced and, presumably, safer, complaints have still been logged.

As a consumer resource for automotive information, Edmunds.com has a stake in finding answers. We also have a data team that crunches numbers, and we have vehicle testers, both of which we recently assigned to help solve the mystery of unintended acceleration.

We assigned 25 staffers to review, line by line, the published consumer complaint data available on the NHTSA Web site. The database, with more than 760,000 records, is, simply put, a mess. After reading each complaint since model-year 2005, we found that 30 percent of the original complaints were miscategorized; more than 26 percent were duplicates; and hundreds were not complaints but merely comments or suggestions.

When we focused on the major automakers and limited our review to recent-model-year vehicles (2005 to present), the 52,000 complaints through September 2009 -- a fair stopping point, because it was before news reports erupted -- showed that every car company had incidents of sudden acceleration. This is not strictly a Toyota issue. NHTSA head David L. Strickland said as much when he told Congress recently that Toyota's rate of complaints was "unremarkable."

And for driver error to be the likely culprit, a simple statistical review of complaint data should show a relatively uniform distribution across automakers. But our review of NHTSA data showed variations in complaints by manufacturer. While human error may be a factor, it's not the only cause.

Theories about sudden acceleration broadly fall into four categories: First, some sort of electrical interference or computer glitch. Second, a general mechanical failure, such as a sticky throttle. Third, design factors such as floor mats (meaning that the vehicle was functioning correctly, but a design lapse increased the chance of an incident). Fourth, driver error, also known as pedal misapplication.

We tried to re-create the circumstances surrounding some recent incidents. We took the highest-horsepower Toyota Camry to the test track to see whether the brakes could stop a runaway vehicle -- which they can. Next we looked at the Toyota Prius. We found that when the vehicle is accelerating, a simple tap of the transmission shifter into neutral disengages the throttle, and the vehicle coasts to a halt -- even if the brakes are not applied.

What does all this mean? As our testing confirms and government regulators and Toyota have said recently, it is extremely difficult to re-create the out-of-control incidents being reported. Reports on Monday regarding a runaway Prius in San Diego were once again inconclusive. It is impossible to rule out any possibilities: electrical, mechanical, design or driver-related.

So where do we go from here? The Transportation Department and NHTSA should take the lead in coordinating an effort that involves all manufacturers. Perhaps by sharing data and working collaboratively, they can find an answer that working individually has rendered elusive.

We need to focus on the right problem. Toyota's embarrassment about communication lapses and likely government regulatory fixes miss the point. Our roads will be safer when the root cause of unintended acceleration is known.

The case for saving property and lives should be obvious. But there is another risk for consumers: Toyota's legal bill for unintended-acceleration cases will be in the billions. Soon enough, entrepreneurial lawyers will realize that other car companies are vulnerable. And who ends up covering this tab? Future car buyers -- in the form of higher prices.

The writer is chief executive of Edmunds.com, which recently announced a competition with a cash prize for anyone who can demonstrate in a verifiable manner the reason for unintended acceleration.

PMO

Tell me you hate GM workers and GM after driving that old Buick.

sharonkl

My neighbor has a Lexus ES350, but only carpet mats. She already told me she can not imagine the carpet causing a problem w the pedal. But her car is under recall for mats. I have not actually seen her vehicle to verify same.

Bob Baker of Lexus/Toyota may have some legal problems regarding their actions/lack of actions since they own/rented that Lexus..

Sorry, my vehicle is a RAV4 w rubber all weather mats. Not issue at all.

gagrice

I wonder what paragraph 5 said that they blacked it out.

sharonkl

A good management approach/analysis would be to get the proven most likely vehicles that had SUA/UA incidents. Test them and drive them. Pay particular attention to those with one proven or more than two complaints. Run the tests. Have them drive these autos for personal use too. if legally possible. Financially should be more beneficial, than the monetary effects from a lost liability lawsuit.

houdini1

Well, as I said on another thread, let's line up all the interested parties, including Toyota, and have them all take a lie detector test to be administered by a neutral third party. Then let the chips fall where they may.

I have heard that these tests cannot be used in court, but they certainly could be used in the court of public opinion.

junkyardog

If you are lucky, your RAV4 was built in Woodstock Ontario Canada and they don't seem to be having the same problems with run away cars. They must use different parts then the ones in the States. They have winter up there 9 months a year, so when they go from their igloos to the car they leave their snowshoes on and drive and don't have a problem with the mats and gas pedals. Only in America. :P

sharonkl

If I lived in those area with those same climate conditions actually I wouldn't have chosen a RAV4. But I live in California so own one. And don't go to Sierra's for snow skiing. Smile - do vividly remember the winters of Nebraska though.

Well, my vehicle was made in Japan. Guess that may eliminate my auto. Does Canada have good national - active safety agency system??

sharonkl

That is good question???? But may have been something about the 4 people that died. That was just what I personally felt though.

Any ideas, other suggestions??

sharonkl

I remember there was alot of cell phone interference during call. Call was very short it, and then it seemed the impending crash recognized by famliy - which is when poor guy in back said "pray, pray." Screams. Then line went dead.

I really don't want to say anything bad about this poor family. I don't understand all of what happened. None of us do.

You do mention evidence. Yikes - that is another question to all of this. Toyota has actually been quite secretive about their EDR's or black box. Toyota said they could not read Saylors data. But be aware they have done this frequently They only had one reader - only proprietary they claim - they insist they are only ones allowed to read. Must be done and read byToyota only.

Here in US these system have been around since late 1970's. Toyota has history of withholding information, requiring a court order, making contradicting statements on what black box records and if/when gotten many times they leave columns blank. And US has no laws as auto manufacturers have fought against. Is to be law 9/01/2012. American manufacturers now do have on cars and use a Bosch system which can be read by any third party, police, etc.NHTSA has info too. For some reason Japanese manufacturers have been quite secretive. Hope law will change this approach, but - how can it take 12 years to get it implemented?

junkyardog

They are looking into what is happening in the States right now with Toyota, but that is to cover their butt if something happens. The department of transportation has had 17 complaints against Toyota in the last 3 or 4 years, but no deaths or UA that I have seen on the news.

Up here we have big winter mats that hold enough melted snow that if you got broken down you would have enough water for 3 days. People use them for cruise control by shoving them against the gas pedals to hold their cars at one speed and dig their heels in and pull back on them when they want to slow down.

sharonkl

Your last paragraph is one of reasons many of us have lots of difficulty buying all the floor mat recalls over the years for SUA/UA. The auto industry has developed our much safer electronic/computerized cars, but problems such as these SUA/UA incidents are scarey and deadly.

Stanford is presently researching computerized steering.

doidoadiesel

indicates that it is predominantly limited to Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Proper statistics would adjust for the number of cars and the number of miles driven, commonly referred to as vehicle miles driven. Data would also be age adjusted for each car to eliminate age bias of kids driving Subaru WRX's and older people driving Avalons and Lexus'. It should be split into manual and automatic vehicles and probably some adjustment needs to be made as to whether cruise control was employed and whether the incident was on a two lane road or a limited access highway. It is not a simple as people would like to believe to establish that there is any real statistical significant difference. People get carried away with the news reports because the science to determine this can get extremely tedious. Yet, such dry statistics are important because they let you get a true picture of whether these incidents are truly skewed toward one manufacturer or another. You might even have to factor in shoe size because it is a lot easier for Shaquile O'neal to hit the brake and the accelerator at the same time than it is for a little woman. Good discussion though.

lemko

No. I wish I still had that car. It was in our family from 1981 through 1992. I handed the car down to my brother when I bought my second car - a 1979 Buick Park Avenue. The only reason my brother got rid of it is because my Dad gave him his old 1981 Ford T-Bird. My brother soon regretted it as that T-Bird was a dog and told me he should've kept my old car. That Buick started me on a lifelong love of the make and General Motors cars. I'm extremely happy with my GM cars and proud of the people who designed and built them. They've done well by me! :shades:

gagrice

I would say the demographics between GM and Toyota should be just about as varied. GM has sold a lot more vehicles in the US than Toyota over the last 10 years. Yet the number of complaints of UA with GM cars is not even a fraction of Toyota and Lexus. I just cannot buy into the idea that Toyota drivers fat foot the accelerator more than GM drivers. That is what Toyota would like US to believe.

houdini1

Yes, GM has done a great job...that is why they are bankrupt with us taxpayers paying their bills.

They should be especially proud of the fact that all their previous stockholders were left holding the bag with worthless stock. They sure did right by them. Now they are owned by taxpayers and the Union. I see a bright future.

How is that kool ade tasting?

lemko

DELICIOUS!!!


I could care less about their bankruptcy and all that other political mumbo-jumbo. I only care about the cars and they are darn fine cars - especially Buicks and Cadillacs!

Besides, why are we even talking about GM here? Isn't this a Toyota forum?

doidoadiesel

I would like to see your sources for cars on the road and numbers of complaints. The ODI site only lets you look up one year, one make, one model at a time. 11 acelleration issues for a 2009 Toyota Camry and 4 for a 2009 Honda Accord. This tells me very little because I don't know how many are on the road or how many vehicle miles driven were involved. Likely if you calculated a confidence interval for the two - they would overlap, indicating a non-significant difference. This site doesn't even have equivalent catagories of complaint for each car so it is hard to tell whether you are even comparing the same issues. So please post where you are getting these numbers. You say you can compute that one is a fractional amount of the other - I would like to check your math. Also age adjustment would be done between models not between manufacturers, Corollas will have a different demographic than Avalons, Cobalts a differnt demographic than Cadillacs.

houdini1

Besides, why are we even talking about GM here? Isn't this a Toyota forum?

Don't ask me, you are the one that brought it up by bragging on your 70's Buick!! It seems some folks will settle for anything and are easy to please.

sharonkl

RE: Runaway Prius -
Here is report I just came across that is interesting. Report says per Toyota manuel - donot shift into "N", "P", "R" while care is moving. Doing so may cause the engine brake not to operate properly and lead to an accident.

Do not turn the hybrid system off while driving. The power steering and brake actuator will not operate properly if the hybrid system is not operating.”

Appears directions right in Toyota Prius manuel. And more now more info is getting brought out.

If all is factual, which it appears it may be - poor owners could really be confused.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/03/15/how-do-you-stop-a-toyota-hybrid-myth-v-- fact/

doidoadiesel

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124235858

These are complaints to NHTSA (who the devil complains to NHTSA? what are they going to do? but anyway - its data and all manufacturers are represented. I suspect that bad press results in even more complaints for some companies so I'd take these numbers with a grain of salt)

In the far right column are number of incidents per 100000 vehicles sold - far more useful than just Number of complaints - If I sell 10 times more cars than you I should have ten times the complaints all other things being equal.
It also lists vehicles as a percentage of the market. It is only reporting on UA and SUA complalints. As you will see as you change the years involved Toyota does NOT have the highest number of complaints per 100,000 vehicles, I would put them in about 4th or 5th place overall, Volkswagen-Audi is by far the worst followed closely by Suzuki and Jaguar. Toyota and BMW are vying for 4th and 5th place. In addition, Toyota complaints are probably the most consistent year to year - Other manufacturers are WAY up one year and down the next.

gagrice

Edmunds did the work for US. They sorted through 1000s of complaints and tossed the ones that could not be verified with contact or VIN. Showing clearly over the last 5 years that Toyota had more complaints of UA than all other brands combined. Toyota had 7.45 times more than GM. Or GM had 13% as many complaints of UA compared to Toyota.

Toyota, including its Toyota, Lexus and Scion brands, had 1,133 consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3. The complaints cover model years 2005 to 2010. Toyota's number of complaints for unintended acceleration exceeds similar complaints for the other Big Six manufacturers combined.



http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyota-leads-in-nhtsa-unintended-acceleratio- n-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html

doidoadiesel

The source of that report doesn't appear to be without bias either - either from their language or from this report.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/02/toyota-critic-safety-research-strateg- ies-founder-admits-report-funding-came-from-firms-suing-toyota.html

But in any case If this really does come from a Prius Manual, Toyota needs to issue some clarification about emergency operations.

gagrice

These are complaints to NHTSA (who the devil complains to NHTSA? what are they going to do? but anyway

Who would you suggest consumers complain to when the dealer tells you the car is fine? When you know it is not. Complaining to Toyota is like P***ing into the wind. They just toss your complaint in the round file. When a celebrity like the Woz, that has probably sold more Prius through his network of followers than any salesman, cannot get any response from Toyota, how does a regular owner have a chance?

Sadly the NHTSA has been somewhat lax in pursuing Toyota over the last decade. Now all that is changed. Toyota's lying and deception are out for all to see.

lemko

It was a 1960s Buick. I was just answering another poster's query. I don't believe I settle for anything. If I did, I would just blindly follow the advice of a certain consumer magazine.

gagrice

11 acelleration issues for a 2009 Toyota Camry

You need to go back and dig deeper into the ODI. There are at least 136 complaints of UA and possibly 170 complaints on the 2009 Camry. You have to look at unknown and brakes as well. Many people consider it a braking problem when they cannot stop their car. You should compare it to the 2009 Malibu. Which has ZERO complaints of UA or brakes not stopping the car. Toyota has a serious problem with their DBW design. Hiring PR people will not fix their problems.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm

lemko

Holy smoke! Toyota's own manual contradicts other people's suggestion to shift into Neutral. Maybe Mr. Sikes was one of the few people who read the manual thus fueling his fear of shifting the car into Neutral in case of SUA?

ingvar

Lot of people are waiting for 0%APR and 1K-2K discounts from Toyota. They don't care about problems, finally it's Toyota, moving forward, always moving forward even when you are trying to stop.

beachfish2

"I only care about the cars and they are darn fine cars - especially Buicks and Cadillacs!"

Even Consumer Reports (my father has a subscription) says they love driving the Caddys and want to Recommend them, but the poor reliability restricts their ability to Recommend them and they don't. Would you like me to send you the issues with this statement?

Just kidding, go to the library.

John

beachfish2

Here, from Google...

"Jan 5, 2010 ... Cadillac CTS Tops CR Tests of Luxury Sedans but Reliability Remains an Issue. "

lemko

Poor reliability? What? Does that mean maybe they won't survive a direct attack with a nuclear weapon? I still have my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and it has never let me down nor did the 1988 Buick Park Avenue until I recently traded it after 21 years and 186K miles. I wouldn't keep buying unreliable vehicles after all these years.

houdini1

Did you trade the '88 in on the '89? :confuse:

doidoadiesel

What kind of sampling would you call this and what problems might it have? Do all cases make it into the database? It isn't like the FARS database which records ALL fatal accidents. It is ultimately self-reported data which is not population based. It may be accurate or it may not be. I'm just trying to ultimately weigh what the real risk is from a personal viewpoint as a Toyota owner. I come from an injury research background so I tend to look at things a little differently. It isn't an emotional issue with me - I understand how it would be for families who have lost someone. So from the perspective of comparing Toyota with the Big 6, the SUA and UA complaints are certainly elevated, although when you compare on a per 100,000 vehicle basis, other (smaller market share) manufacturers are far worse. If I was buying a car and considering Volkswagen-Audi, Suzuki, Jaguar, or BMW my personal risks of SUA and UA would be probably more elevated in one of these cars than in a Toyota, and probably less so in a GM Ford or Chrysler, at least from this sort of incident. But those manufacturers have had OTHER issues that are life threatening. SUA/UA incidents are very rare in any case. The worst rate I see was Volvo in 2001 with 55.6 UA complaints per 100,000 vehicles on 125,801 sales. This means that if these statistics are accurate less than .0006 percent of 2001 Volvos were complained about. In Toyota's worst year 2007 there were 15.2 SUA/UA complaints per 100,000 vehicles sold - less than .0002 percent of 2,627,066 Toyotas were complained about. Like I said - research is tedious.

I find it interesting that motor vehicle deaths have been declining for the first time in history in the USA, mostly because of passive restraint systems and better crumple zones. So the same technology curve that has resulted in lower mortality is also being blamed for these SUA events. I think there is something going on with at least some of these cars but as yet, I don't know what it is. It is the proverbial needle in a haystack.

lemko

I still have the '89. I recently traded the '88 for an '05 Grand Marquis.

houdini1

Very reasonable and logical post...but it probably will not be appreciated here. Too bad your prior background is not in mob psychology, that would serve you much better here !!

At any rate, it is always nice to see someone who is cool and logical and knows how to reason properly.

sharonkl

All those involved taking a lie detector test would be very, very interesting. Have been following this since beginning, and would have some predictions which would most likely fail. Never happen.

But then - why aren't manufacturers obtaining these solid proven SUA/UA vehicles to study?? Especially those that have multiple episodes. This would be the most apparent logical management approach.

But - wait - legal liability starts entering picture possibly if they would do this. Corporate admission they have a problem can create legal liability fault. Corporations will/must legally protect themselves. How they protect themselves is not always fair. Sometimes it is. US law provides more protection to a corporation than to the average US citizen. Legal system is complex. Can be good and bad. Lawyers usually benefit more than the consumers suing. Winning a settlement in court does not mean a consumer will get paid. Court does not pursue collection. This is up to consumer to do. More costs, etc. Collection is another whole legal process. Most consumers are aware of the risks, and decide not to pursue.

I have hopes some laws will be implemeted to help make US citizens safer as a result of all that has happened. Not just Toyota, other manufacturers too. Toyota does have a higher problem per the data studies published. Some others re up in stats too. Hope will be across the board safety mechanisms implemented..

gagrice

I think there is something going on with at least some of these cars but as yet, I don't know what it is. It is the proverbial needle in a haystack.

On that we agree. I have no problem with your desire to see an accurate accounting of problems. The fact is the Feds are inept at doing a good job at anything. So the NHTSA is controlled by the same lobby forces that run the rest of our government. Every other entity that keeps track have one agenda or another. So who do you trust?