Drive it till it drops ?

fleetwoodsimca

Some of those guys have done some tricky and nifty carpentry to substitute for body work. Down there, a guy with an American chop shop would be king of the universe!

swschrad

cuba auto repair is a country-wide version of "junkyard wars," they ought to shoot a couple episodes down there.

Mr_Shiftright

Many of those old American cars don't even have American engines in them anymore...you're as likely to find a Mitsubishi powered 60s Chevrolet with a Russian truck transmission in it.

I seriously doubt any of these cars are worth restoring to original anymore.

fleetwoodsimca

You gotta be right! (:o]

Mr_Shiftright

There has been some talk among good samaritans in the collector car hobby to figure out a way to ship replacement small parts down to Cuban car owners who need these items to keep their old cars going.

alcan

A few of the ones I saw in Havana a couple of years ago still looked pretty good, mostly mid to late 50's.

andys120

I spent some time in LaPaz, Bolivia in '76 and was amazed at the amount of old American iron running around there from the 40s, 50s and 60s.

I saw some cool old planes as well including DC-3s and C-46s as well as a parked flight of P-51s that belonged to the Paraguayan AF.

mrnimmo

intended to dogfight. I imagine that a modern jet might have difficulty with a slow old P51. Don't know if the P51 produces enough heat to attract a heat seaker. Don't think a jet fighter could fly slow enough to shoot the P51 down.

The P51 is probably mostly for airshows and maybe strafing narcorebels.

Who knows.

mrnimmo

I inherited the wife's 94 Camry a few years ago. We bought it two years old with 15k. (Someone else took the initial depreciation.) It now has 160k. I doubt I could sell it for much if I wanted to.

It's been well maintained and driven easily. In it's life, we've changed the fluids regularly--all fluids, though the PS fluid wasn't looking so hot today. We've used synthetic oil every 5k except for a stray Jiffy Lube trip when we ran short on time. I've needed a set of plat plugs, a PVC (needed?), front brake shoes, 2.5 sets of tires, two timing belts, and a water pump (first T belt at around 100k and the second when the pump started making a little noise-- should have done the pump the first time!). I also just had to replace a couple of bulbs.

There's no rust. It doesn't burn any oil or need any at oil change time, although the oil does come out a little dirtier than I remember it coming out when it was new. Seats sag just a little more than they used to and there is a slight tear (1/2) in one of the door panels. I'm not surprised how well the car has held up, as the 160k have been fairly easy mostly interstate miles. I am a little surprised how well the body and especially the interior have handled the years and miles.

At this point, I'm in drive it til it drops mode. I'm really curious how many miles I can get. There are certainly many vehicles I'd rather have. This auto tranny 4 cyl Camry is far from exciting. But given the cost of replacing the car with something comparable, I could replace the engine or rebuild the tranny and still feel way ahead of the ball game. The engine has never thrown a code. There is no ABS on this car. If an airbag has a problem, I'll probably just ignore it. I expect to have to replace struts or other front suspension components soon.

The car has been absolutely reliable. Never a no start and never died. I trust the car, and know a little about maintenance so that things usually don't sneak up on me. I'll probably take it in a few weeks for a long trip (approx 1600 miles). I see friends with new cars having far more repairs than I have maintenance. We haven't had a payment on this thing since 1997. The miles are really cheap now, so it just doesn't make sense at this point.

swschrad

in a steep dive, they're not ready for the smelter yet.

certain older cars also were so well-suited for their purpose, they never stop drawing attention, as well.

just because it's old doesn't mean it's automatically useless.

Mr_Shiftright

Any old technology still can do what it did when it was new.

A P51 in good shape in America is worth a fortune.

Probably a good guideline for whether you should drive it til it drops is whether or not your monthly outlays on the old car is anything close to new car payments.

andys120

those Mustangs. I doubt the PAF still has any.

In countries like that the AF is mainly for close support of the army.

nippononly

that camry is a perfect case study of when it is advantageous to drive it til it drops.

The only worry will be whether the boredom will kill you!

I wonder if you still maintain collision insurance on it, given its age and reduced value now...if you only insure it for comp and liability, that is some more $$ you can save each year vs a new car.

rubicon52

Those 92-96 Camrys are really nice. I have a 95 V-6. Nice styling and quality materials throughout. Built before the cost cutting starting with the 97 Camry. No way of telling how much longer it will hold up. Could develop an expensive problem tomorrow or run nice for a few more years. You're in a low risk situation. If it holds up for a couple of more years, you're getting very cheap transportation. If it develops an expensive problem it won't cost that much to walk away from it, maybe donate it to charity and take the deduction. Edmunds lists the TMV private sale value of your car at about $1600. Take something away for the value of the tax deduction and you're risk of continuing to drive it might be around $1200 which is a pretty small risk as far as cars go.

mrnimmo

>whether or not your monthly outlays on the old car is anything close to new car payments.

My yearly outlay isn't anything close to a new car payment. I do fluids fairly often but I don't count the cost because I do it on any car. In the last year I put on front pads and the water pump and timing belt. Labor is next to nothing because I have a factory tech friend to do them. (This helps tremendously and I realize that the equation would be different absent this friend.)

>The only worry will be whether the boredom will kill you!

It's impossible to love a Toyota, I'm convinced. (My corollary: It hurts to love VW's, I know for sure.)

>maintain collision insurance on it...

No, I don't.

julians

I have a 1992 Corolla which is in the drive till it dies category. It is going strong and I have only put on tires, timing belt & service, and a muffler in the last year or so. Are there any warinings that a battery is going bad? I think that the battery is like 6 years old, but the car starts every time. I like the drive till it dies idea, just don't want to get stranded by something small.

gsleve

of a battery it basically owes you nothing at this point in the interest of not encoutering a problem it might be prudent to purchase one now so as to avert any potential issues

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, good suggestion. This is a perfect example of how pro-active maintenance can work for you. I'd toss out any 6 year old battery as having exceeded its life expectancy by half already.

Same for belts, hoses.

Any tow truck driver will tell you that most breakdowns are due to relatively minor items that smoetimes cause major problems.

fleetwoodsimca

Last year, I had a battery go out on me in a McDonalds parking lot. I was amazed in many ways at how hard it was to cope with the problem. My only hint of impending failure was about one hour earlier, when the battery seemed a bit anemic on starting the engine. That was the only weakness that battery showed in over 6 years of service. The next time I attempted to start the engine (one hour later), the battery was defunct.

Mr_Shiftright

That's the problem. Most battery failures are in fact sudden heart attacks.

swschrad

periodically when I start my truck, I'm getting an intermittently slow starter (rurrrrr-r___o___w___l) just before the engine starts.

I suspect a foul winding in the starter, particularly since there is no indication of voltage drop on the battery, and just went through a battery load check at my last oil change and all is OK. other possibilities could include a funny ground or hot connection to the starter motor, a dying relay, aliens, and sabotage by Saddam. the battery terminals themselves are clean and tight.

getting it three times a week now. when I can get a second symptom, I'm moving forward on it. the point is, not all the "cannot start" issues are battery.

I would be really torqued if it turns out there is a flaky interconnect between cells, though, because that is yet another possibility here.

fleetwoodsimca

Got my bat tested. It came out with flying colors. I am paranoid and not convinced~(:o]
My experience with Motorcraft original batteries is over three years, but never make it to four. If it weren't for generalizations and anecdotes, where would we be?

nippononly

my old Subie was still going strong on its original battery, which tested strong, after 5.5 years and more than 100K. Started every time, in 100 degree weather and in the snow at 0 degrees.

Read recently in CR that many new car batteries are going ten years now...

swschrad

got about that life on my ranger battery. which would put expiration on the current exploder's battery around about vacation time. what a revolting thought.

the sears battery I replaced the ranger's with went another 7 years until I traded.

clever how that works, seeing as how the motorcraft and sears batteries are both made by johnson controls... but there are always levels of crafting that you can specify on batteries, tires, and stuff like that when you buy in freight-train lots.

just another thing to watch.

Mr_Shiftright

Battery life depends a lot on where the manufacturer puts the battery (right next to the turbo, Saab????), how much extra equipment you are running, and how you treat it. F'instance, if you let it run down completely dead (left the lights on overnight), you've hurt it. Severe climate (too cold OR too hot) is also a factor.

So sure, under ideal condition you will get more than 4 years. It's just an average for you to evaluate against your own situation/car/climate/habits.

I think the gel batteries would last longer but I don't see why the regular batteries of today are any different from 5 years ago.

And LAST OF ALL, not all batteries are equal to begin with. Some are rather cheaply built.

andys120

what's a gel battery?

swschrad

they have thinner plates, encapsulate the electrolyte in a gel or paste, and won't endure as severe a service as will cast-plate wet batteries. they're also called valve-regulated lead acid (VRLA) batteries.

in particular, they purely hate running warmer than 75 fahrenheit, the life of the battery really dives above 85 degrees. there are maximum current ratings that really need to be heeded on any particular draw to avoid drying parts of the electrolyte or damaging the plates or separator with local heating.

the technology is the very same in the "spiral" type batteries sold for automotive service as in the standby-power batteries I know well, so the caveats are the same. they just don't add up for auto service IMHO.

I have been in battery stores getting more stuff for geegaws and electronic stuff, and folks are just exchanging those spiral cells every few weeks for another one on warranty.

that ain't going in MY truck, I can tell you that.

where the gel batteries are excellent are in defined-drain situations like standby power, where you can't have spills or fumes from free-acid batteries due to hazard or environmental concerns (like the living room, right down where the cat and baby crawl,) and they are more vibration-resistant than cast plate wet batteries. if you derate and massively overdesign a gel battery, they will work well in extremes of temperature and pressure, like spacecraft and space stations. but in those applications, you have the bulk and weight of a tractor battery for the power in a motorcycle battery.

I have yet to stretch a UPS gel battery past two and a half years with occasional power-blip UPS operation, and we had a 240-volt stack of 'em in a prior job die in 4 months because the temperature was in the 80s in that room on a regular basis.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmm...interesting. I keep hearing about this great battery life in Miatas. Was this all a myth? (maybe, car enthusiasts have been known to stretch the truth!).

I have heard though that high temp and gel batteries don't get along, which is perhaps why Miata puts it in the trunk rather than engine compartment.

My battery on my Benz diesel is approaching 4 years, and it's out of there when it hits the magic number.

nippononly

do they recycle them completely, or do parts of the battery end up in the landfill? Anyone know?

fleetwoodsimca

Dead batteries go to Los Angeles. Asian ships then come there and buy them. They go out 200 miles in the ocean and refine the lead. This gives the pollution to us a few days later, and all the profit to the Asians.

swschrad

but they are pollution monsters, and it's all moved off. the plastic is burned or landfilled, including separators and stuff, and under a nasty metal/sulfur smelling blanket of bad air, molten lead comes out. used to be a back-lot mini-smelter at a metals place in Fargo, and I drifted downwind of it once while dropping off some barrels of metal scrap.

nippononly

for me that will be incentive enough not to discard my battery until it quits cranking - I will accept one no-start rather than dispose of a battery early to contribute to pollution unnecessarily in this way. That is gross!

Mr_Shiftright

I have this battery rebuilding shop where I live and they have recycling resources. I'll ask more about that and get back to you guys.

fleetwoodsimca

In the past, I have done exactly what you now propose to do-- accept one no-start, then replace the battery. I am about to migrate to the position of paying far closer attention to the first "weak" starting noises from an aging battery,and replace it at that point. Last summer I had an OEM Chrysler battery, 7 years old and under watchful eye, tell me once that it was very tired and old. I noted the slow start and drove down to McDonalds to get a burger for lunch anyway. The shear horrors of the happenings in that lot when the battery went to absolute death are scarred into my brain forever. (:o]

swschrad

read an article on one of the newspapers online (NYT? WashPost?) a month or so back about the evils that befell a village in Mexico. their lead smelting plant used mercury for lead recovery. there are pools of mercury in the abandoned building, so bad that they can't get crews to clean it up, and the locals are having all sorts of predictable ills.

many of the folks who went into that plant on a cleanup job came out real sick, and that with respirators on. sounds like swimming in the slag ponds by gold mines, I am thinking particularly of Homestake Mining in Lead, SD... those pools are cyanide in water, you know.

however, the fact remains that the lead-lead sulfate battery ( aka lead acid ) is still the only economical system suitable for the rough and tumble of automotive service.

wonderful. the good news is, it's much better in the battery assembly plants... at least ours. I would still prefer to work in computers, telecom, or flipping burgers than in one of those plants, however.

according2me

gear is in every Nuclear medicine and Pathology lab in every hospital in the country, so you can be exposed to all sorts of unseen hazards when servicing equipment. Also in every nuclear power plant, petrochemical refinery and lets not forget all the post offices thru out the country. I was issued a breathing mask just for the USPS site visits.

In this modern technological world one must be constantly vigilant as to the environment you will be introduced to on a daily basis.

But,it was a good way to pay the bills. LOL

swschrad

I had to troubleshoot a seepage pump in a back room off the accelerator room at a hospital back while earning my second degree... one of those accelerators that 60 minutes had a fine time with that would occasionally turn on full-blast by itself and not turn off. there are threats everywhere... few of which are realized. be cool and be aware, not be paranoid and on the attack.

according2me

to the days of having disk drives the size of washing machines and having to align the 10 platter/20 head units to standard reference calibration media to insure R/W compatability across the nation? And that was a 40MB capacity for a high-end processor!!!

Now 80GB fits in your hand and is in every low-end PC.

Got a problem, swap the whole unit. Once the molecular stuff hits the market it will become; got a problem, swap the whole node.

fleetwoodsimca

Parts exchange remains faster and less expensive than repair. This lets your diagnostic skills dwindle, but that's life.

andys120

interesting that you should mention post offices. I worked as a temp in the sorting area of a busy PO back in the mid '60s when we were only dimly aware of pollution hazrds and I could tell it wasn't healthy in there.

The amount of dust and airborne particles generated by those mailbags was unbelievable. Had I known then what I know now I'd have worn a mask. You could actually feel the junk in your nose and throat after a shift.

swschrad

and yes, we had one of those Unisys 40Mbs under Digital regalia chunking along at stkate.edu for maybe six years, maybe more, hanging off an 11/782. DEC did the alignments for us. usually ran like a Maytag, sometimes like a Speed Queen washer when the head alignment slipped, and hot as an unvented gas dryer.

as a kid, I also remember long, pointed, foul tirades against Scotch 100 recording tape... rust on paper... because when you rewound the tape decks of the day in a radio station, you had a blizzard of paper dust in the air whenever the tape broke. usually in the middle of an interview that was being edited. there was one late afternoon or early evening when Dad ripped one loose that would make a chief petty officer blush. that was the very late 1950s, and ended the "100 era," management support for a case of 111 tape was forthcoming. must have been an important interview that got lost.

it is useful to know the past. it is very nice to not have 6SN7 tube based computers with 3-phase power. I do go back to 3-phase but not to tubes.

how would you like to have to diagnose car electronics with, say, 6CW4 ceramic tubes? just like the electric cars, you couldn't afford to change out that module...

here's the real killer... I'm only 50. by the time I'm 60, there will be gasping incredulity about our antique roadsters of today.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, but after gasping incredulously, if they score big in the stock market---what do they shell out a hundred grand for? An old car!

swschrad

I work in telecom, the only people we saw taking it home from the market recently had a tubload more money than the average millionnaire to start with. at this point, my motto is, " buy low, and burn for fuel "

according2me

and the Scotch blackwatch tape was newer and even worse. Customers couldn't complete backups because heads were totally black halfway thru a tape. The government loved this low bid stuff.

swschrad

and that's a fact. the tape worked so well in audio, though... clean and quiet.

isellhondas

When I was young and broke, there was a place in a rundown part of town that sold "rebuilt" batteries. They had a 90 day guarantee.

One day, I watched them "rebuild" them.

They would turn them upside down on a rack to drain the acid. God only knows what they did with the acid...probably into the storm system...

Then they would beat in the bottoms of the batteries to dislodge (?)the crud that was maybe causing the plates to short out.

They would clean up the battery, wipe it down with something that made it shine, fill it with fresh acid, charge it up and slap a sticker on it.

Presto! It was "rebuilt" and ready to sell!

I think the 6 volts (I know...don't say it) were something like 7.95 and the 12 volts were 10.95.

They were just gambling they would make it through the 90 day warranty period.

I remember most of their customers were the guys who operated the sleazy used car lots.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I didn't mean people getting rich investing in the stock market, I meant getting rich stealing your money in the stock market.

swschrad

they didn't pour the acid onto their boots

fleetwoodsimca

As a freshman in college, in qualitative analysis, I "poured" just a few measly drops of concentrated nitric acid on the toe of a brand new pair of penny loafers. I realized quickly what had happened, yanked the offended shoe off, and put baking soda and water on it. It seemed to accelerate the "eating" of the leather but neutralized it before perforation. Ugly!

swschrad

truly nasty stuff, there's a reason there are fume hoods in chemistry labs. I remember debating at moorhead high, and they had a rack with big old 5-gallon glass carboys labelled with various acids right in the aisle of the chemistry room. "nah, couldn't be," thought I, as I twisted the ground-glass stopper out of the glacial acetic acid, and used my hand to waft a little distant sniff over from a foot away.

like to have died. they were the real mccoy. one pinhead on a rampage and stuff surely would have happened. might as well have put little tin buckets full of kerosene in the restrooms with chunks of sodium metal at the bottom as another "safety" measure