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Side comment: business acquaintance of my husband from south Florida knew we had bought the HH Ltd and said he just saw one at a dealership in Ft. Lauderdale for $9,000 over invoice - something they called dealer premium or some such nonesense. I asked my husband if guy was mistaken but he swears that was the asking price. He just talked to the guy the other day. He was asking my husband how much over we had to pay and hubby said sticker price and he was flabbergsted. . .
mmreid
By the way, I run 34PSI in my Michelins now, seems to be just fine and I aggree with you that the 17" alloys are really nice looking.
Mike
the wait here in the SF / east bay was just under 5 months, at msrp. it did come with a couple of options that we didn't ask for - the glass breakage sensor (which doesn't seem like a bad idea) and an exhaust tip (my wife had a good laugh).
does anyone here know if the obc mpg indicated on the nav is based on 'tank level' or quantity of 'fuel metered'? Just doing a bit of reverse engineering thinking, i'll guess the latter. We're only at 150 miles - at an indicated 29.1 mpg, i'm really happy.
i'm really surprised at the cleverness of design in the HH. i haven't been this excited about a new car - ever.
rick
Based on Forbes article above, expect future HH prices to deflate. Toyota is pretty serious about cutting hybrid manufacturing costs and passing the savings to consumers!
i hope the prices do come down. i don't regard our HH as an investment anyway, as we drive 'em till the wheels fall off. I'd guess that the prices will shrink in the Scion level cars, where there is presumably more pressure.
what I wish Toyota would do is make a bold statement that there will be an upgrade path for us adventuring souls, including new battery pack technology when the old ones wear out, software upgrades, and pluggability. I wouldn't expect this to be a warranty type operation I'd gladly pay $5K for a 2-3x-he-present-capacity-in-kwh, as opposed to a 3K replacement of the as-original pack, when the time comes (or before!). I'd gladly pay $2K to make it pluggable. I'd gladly pay hundreds of dollars per year on upgrades software. And so on.
i suspect there are many of us out there in the same mind. maybe we should all raise our voices on this one. I suspect Toyota R&D may already be listening.
rick
I wholehartedly support the upgrad path appraoch. May be we can return our HH to a Toyota certified shop for an upgrade where they change wires (gauge), batteries, gears, software and other eletronics. We now get a HH Mark II that supports plug-in, can run on electric from 0 to 48 MPH with no engine warm-up. If this upgrade improves fuel efficiency to real-world 35 MPG and prolongs car lifespan another 100K miles, I will be willing to plunk down $10K.
Car Mfr should look at modular design where pieces can be swapped to increase or upgrade performance. At some level, especially in higher end models, this can be a decent revenue stream.
Even just a software update could probably produce some fuel savings.
Parked next to my 4Runner, it's a tad smaller and I think the 4Runner's 2600lbs.
1. Normal - you know already
2. Eco - force sluggish starts by holding the ICE back.
3. Performance - leave the engine running at stoplight for ultra quick tire chirping gettaways. Allow brake assisted massive burnouts. Fit tires that create colored smoke. (Never mind it's front wheel drive and the driver has to breath in the cloud of carbon and is essentially blind.) Allow taunting engine reving at stop lights...I can't stand the silence.
4. Valet - it goes no better than 20 mph and starts the engine like they would expect. Oh I suppose it could voice the car is 'ready'. But in what language?
5. Teenager - reasonable performance as compared to a prius. (password protected with a tamper log and detailed trip log including GPS points) If it is floored it should quote HAL. "Sorry, I can't do that {insert name here}" If backup sensors detect object aproaching from the rear override limits and GET GOING!!! Of course this leads to the first teanager hack of having a passenger whack the rear bumper to whip ol Betsy into a run.
trim in the Highlander hybrids?
All you need is a 10-12Kwh battery and rectifier to convert 110V AC to
battery charging DC. The battery will add some weight which can be
offset by a less powerful ICE, lighter/fewer seats etc. More modules of
the current battery can be used. If Toyota can guarantee a 2-3kWH
battery for 10 years why cant they guarantee a similar 10-12Kwh battery
for 10 years?
The plug-in should have a range of 25-30 miles
on pure electric with a top speed of 65mph. (most freeway limits).
If this is too aggressive even 50mph will do - people may chose not to take
freeways.
When battery is drained to 20% of capacity the car reverts to present
hybrid mode.
All of this technology is already present. Even if it adds 4-5K to the
vechicle many people will be interested. Will Toyota at-least give it
a try? Imagine charging these things with wind or solar. It will take care
of most commutes, grocery trips, doctor's visit, soccer mom needs etc and cut
US's gas consumption by 60% or more. Not to speak of the environmental
impact.
Finally, I would like to point out that Lexus, BMW, Mercedes or many other
luxury car makers are not afraid to come out with these ultra expenensive
vehicles that sell in very low volume but in excess of 60-70K. The emphasis
has always been power, power and more power. Maybe it is time to
come with another line of vehicles where are emphasis is on eco-friendlyness
and less gas consumption. There are enough people with money out there who
also care about the environment.
Toyota guys - are you listening?
IG
But I think they knew exactly what they were after w/ the 400h and Hh. Except not making these vehicles noticeable enough. The Hh offers plenty of room, unsurpassed performance, and 10 to 15 mpg better fuel economy than any competitor (Escape H doesn't compare). Nothing even comes close.
I couldn't find a link yet (probably be up by this afternoon) at my paper or the AP website but the article's titled "As gas prices rise, world's automakers embrace hybrids". But it looks like most of these automakers are at least two years away from having actual vehicles available for sale.
mmreid
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050914/germany_auto_show_hybrid_revolution.html?.v=1
I didn't realize that Toyota's sales where up 133%. Pretty impressive when you consider the deals all the other manufacturers are offering right now.
To clarify, that's just their HYBRID sales versus 2004 same time frame. Meaning Jan thru August 2005 they have sold 133% more Hybrids than they did Jan-Aug 2004.
I think that's what they meant.... :confuse:
How many HH drivers are getting 30-35 MPG? I would say the improvement is 2-5 MPG according to those that are keeping track and posting mileage.
Question I asked husband after reading it was "are all the other automakers coming up with their own hybrid systems or using what Toyota has already invented?" He just said if they use Toyota's, then Toyota is going to get a piece of every single car the other guys make.
mmreid
I was hoping I'd fool someone else into the heavylifting but I just worked out the hybrid penalty is 300lbs (3935nonH vs HH4245). Not bad difference . . . until you see an 18-year old 4Runner weighs 1000lbs less.
CR tested a Chevy Trailblazer EXT 4WD. It got only 9 mpg in the city cycle. The Dodge Durango 4WD got 8 mpg. I know I'm doing 10 to 13 mpg better with my Hh in stop and go (city) driving than these mid sized SUVs are. The new Explorer might do a little better.
CR will probably come in with a lower city mpg for the Hh. The Escape delivered 26 mpg overall in the CR test. They may not use the techniques many posters are indicating they use with hybrids to max out the city mpg.
Of course a Hh won't tow as much as the above. Or go off roading. But all I want is an SUV to carry all our ski gear and get us to any West Virginia ski resort in any kind of weather. Our '02 Highlander excelled at that.
Comparatively CHEAP natural gas can compressed and pumped in at home and with no road taxes.
Of how about a total conversion to CNG and a small genset?
I am with you. Depending on car and model, the 10-15 MPG improvement is not an exaggeration.
Our Sienna yielded 20 MPG in heavy school/street driving. This is with really careful coasting in N and light acceleration, all the same tricks we used for stick-shift. If we did nothing, the car returns at best 18 MPG.
Our bought-used and since sold Chevy Silverado V8, when pressed into the same service last year, returned a miserable 12 MPG despite best effort.
Our HH now returns 28 MPG doing the same route. That is a 8-10 MPG improvement over our Sienna and a huge 16 MPG improvement over our Silverado.
On a recent freeway trip from San Jose to Red Bluff and back, we got 29.7 MPG. This compared to our Sienna returning at best 23.8 MPG on the same trip.
Our gut feel says this HH, when it gets to 5000 miles, may actually be able to return 30 MPG on freeway trips.
Our '04, 4wd, auto Tundra D'cab never got more than 16.5 mpg not matter how careful I was. That means all the 4wd Sequoia's are getting about that. Which is pretty good when compared to 10-12 mpg some Envoys, Excursions, etc. get.
The '97 Subura O'back auto never seemed to do better than 22-24 mpg. We sold it and bought a '02 Highlander Ltd. 4wd which would get almost as good as the boxer Subie. My '89 V6 Pathfinder (150hp) 4wd never got better than 17 mpg. I still have that gas log.
I agree that the seasoning of the V6 and electrics may yield better mpg. We are at 4K and climbing and are seeing more 27ish computer readouts. We drove ours pretty hard with only about 400 miles on in during an interstate run to SC. I did vary speed and stopped for about 30 minutes halfway.
These are supreme interstate cruisers; amazing accelaration at 70 mph and merge power to spare.
One thing that seemed interesting to me was how many auto manufacturers were aiming for fuel cell cars as the wave of the future and I ran across that when I was trying to decide about buying a Prius. The Acura guys were telling me Acura was looking at the whole fuel cell future (I was hoping then to trade my CL for aand not at hybrids at all which was what morning AP article was saying about the European car manufacturers as well. Suddenly oil prices skyrocket and everyone jumping on hybrid bandwagon. Toyota is definitely ahead of the pack on this one as my morning research was pointing out. Wired magazine on-line had a four page article that was written in April that I found informative.
mmreid
out. It is also controlled by the oil companies and subject to demand and
supply. PG&E in CA already warned that CNG rates will go up 40% this winter
due to Katrina. We need a permanent non green-house gas adding solution.
Full electric does not have the 400 mile range yet. A bio-diesel plug-in hybrid
charged will wind/solar/hydro can be a permanent solution if such quantities of
bio-diesel can be cheaply produced. Bio-diesel do not add to green house
gases as it is part of the carbon cycle.
IG
it was in the detroit news 'auto insider' on september 13.
the 2 models mentioned speficially were the priius and the highlander.
who knows if it will amount to anything.
In the lawsuit, Solomon is asking for an injunction barring further infringement as well as damages for the unauthorized use of its patent by Toyota.
Although the thought of a small company suing a large company like Toyota is daunting, Solomon executives said they would use every means to protect the patent rights
http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2005/09/12/daily21.html