Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

Kirstie_H

A bunch of off-topic posts have been removed. If you want to discuss import v domestic, UAW v non-UAW, the News & Views board is a great place to hold that conversation. This discussion is specifically for speculation and info about the Lincoln Zephyr. Thanks!

exalteddragon1

"Also if you make the exchange rate between what a car cost in Japan/Europe vs what they cost here the difference is alarming. Not only is our gas amazingly cheap by comparison, but so are our cars. The reason we have lower prices has a lot to do with how many cars we buy and how long we keep them for (not very)."

Whether a car is made here or in japan, it gets the same rate for gas per gallon. I don't see your logic. The conditions today make it more profitable to produce cars outside the us, that's all. The companies that are in the us do not deal with unions... ohh, check some other posts.

The point is, if the Zephyr were made in Japan under the same budget, it would have a beter engine, more featurs and wind up costing less and bieng a more profitable vehicle to boot. If you don't believe this, please check market share data for the past 10 years.

ANT14

Well yes, mainly because of the favorable exchange rate between the Yen and Dollar. The Japanese government purposely over-inflates the yen, so their businesses are more profittable abroad.

If need be, the Zephyr could be produces in Japan since it shared quite a bit with the Mazda6. Although that would tick off the UAW, and consumer's who are expecting "American luxury" from Lincoln....

grglv

If this car is to compete with the G35, BMW 330, and Lexus ES, then it is unlikely to be overly successfull. These cars are all RWD, and have a performance minded luxury design. The Lincoln Zephyr is nice, but a front wheel drive car is going to have performance issues with the horsepower the competition provides. The TL is a good example of this, and even though it can handle its 270 horses well, every review, and my test drive, found that the FWD set up is more of a struggle in cornering and can cause wheel hop when accelerating.

If reports are correct and this is based on the Mazda 6 platform, then this should probably use the Mazda Speed 6 platform which is rumored to be 4WD and have a greater performance edge.

I wish Lincoln well, but the car formula as reported is not compelling and certainly doesn't live up to the aspirational icon of the Zephyrs of old. For similar, uninspiring models see the entry level car from Ford's other luxury division Jaguar, and expect similar sales figures after the charm of a new introduction wears off in a few months.

ANT14

I believe you ment to say the Lexus GS, being RWD, since the Es330 is FWD. But Ford isn't targeting this against the G35, 330i, etc. It's targeting the Es330, not just in driveline configuration, but the pricepoint and leaning it towards luxury over performance.

Initally it'll be FWD, but AWD will be available soon after. As well as the Duratec 3.5L V6 for those seeking more performance.

I agree about FWD, after you hit 240+HP, FWD becomes a struggle due to it's torque steer and only something that RWD or AWD can alliviate.

revdrluv

I don't think you read my post that you quoted very throughly exalteddragon1. I never said anything about a car getting better fuel economy in Japan over the US.

What I was saying is that our gas is cheaper, our car taxes are cheaper, our cars are ACTUALLY cheaper... and that's part of the reason we buy Maximas and people in Japan don't.

exalteddragon1

Our taxes are cheaper b/c big wigs like Ford and GM pay heavy corporate taxes. If those two companies die, the govt will turn its finger on you, and you'll have to sell your Maxima.

revdrluv

Um... yeah. So go buy a Zephyr everyone!

eaton53

I showed this car to my wife and she loved it. She likes "traditional" luxury cars and FWD... she doesn't care for RWD and snow.

Cadillac's jumping out of the FWD luxury biz... she's got an SLS, says DeVille is too big, ES330 is too ugly and Acuras are too bland. There aren't many others.

IMO, there's a big market for something like this, if it's executed properly.

nvbanker

Hope you're right, so does Bill.

buckwheat

you're wife will love this car if it is just like the one that was on display at the NY auto show, beautiful all white upholstery, I'm sure it will be low maintenance if you don't have kids or allow anyone in as a passenger just leave the drivers seat open and hermetically seal off the rest :-)

eaton53

And her '94 SLS has light tan leather, which is very clean.... so, no problem.

She wants a smaller, more economical car, but doesn't want a harsh ride or to give up any of the luxury (wood, leather, etc.) she's used to. And FWD is a plus, not a minus for her. It has to be good looking, too... nothing ugly or bland will do.

The Jag X-type was the probably the closest thing to the car I just described... just a bit too pricey with the unwanted complexity of AWD.

buckwheat

From what I have read the Jaguar "X" dimensions will be quite close to the Zephyr. The Zephyr with about 107.4" wheelbase and 71" wide will be about 3.8" shorter in wheelbase and 3.2" narrower than the 94 Caddy. As far as the final price (?) it should be less than the Jaguar X with AWD and the 227hp V6 5 speed auto-premium fuel model but not far off from the 192hp V6. I believe the real guide will be the low end of the Lincoln LS V6, Lincoln's least expensive car right now, which starts at $32,265 even though it is rear wheel drive and dimensionally larger. How much less the Zephyr will tap out at (?). Competition is Acura TL, Lexus ES300, Infiniti G35, and Cadillac CTS. The average price of these cars should also be considered for averaging only because each brings to the table many variants. The initial Zephyr FWD will have a 6 speed auto 3.0 V6.. While I mentioned white upholstery it will actually be cream colored, but when I saw it, it looked quite white, the dash will also have a light colored blond wood. The combination I thought was attractive, practical (?).
The Zephyr borrows its name from the first affordably priced Lincoln ever built in 1936. Affordability, will history repeat.

eaton53

The Lincoln 3.0 will cost less than the Jag 2.5, which gets very pricey very quickly when optioned.

Also hope the standard equipment level will be higher, too.... and that they've learned from the Aviator - price aggressively from the start instead of overpricing it, having cars languishing on the lots and having to rebate the heck out of it. Start this thing in the high $20K's.

ANT14

The Zephyr and X-type will follow different missions, and really only be "entry level offerings" for each brand. The X-type will drop it's Mondeo platform, in favor of a RWD S-type based platform.

The Zephyr will seperate itself offering FWD or AWD drivetrain.

buckwheat

To my knowledge there is no announced build date for the Zephyr and no announced date for AWD implementation. It is contemplated but not just yet.
As for Jaguar, the "X" type goes to RWD on a derivative of the current "S" type platform and the "F" type is resurrected using this same platform. Speculation has it the "X" will have a model similar to the Infiniti G35 RWD with AWD. The "S" type will be using a new lightweight aluminum structure derived from the "XJ", new trannies etc. but none of this happens for a couple of model years with 2006 targeted.
Back to the Zephyr.

ANT14

Yep that is correct.

jrock65

I like what I see. It'll probably take some sales away from the ES330, TL, CTS, and the Chrysler 300.

nvbanker

Don't know about the 300C, but I agree with the rest. The 300C is going to appeal more to the Grand Marquis crowd, IMO.

johnclineii

Where'd you see it?

buckwheat

Problem is this car will be built on a platform used for high-volume cars, and that explains the reason Ford is under fire for basing a luxury car on the CD3 platform. Phil Martens, group vice president-product creation, uses the analogy of Toyota, saying the Zephyr is benchmarked against the Lexus ES-330 sedan - which is based on the Toyota Camry platform and carries a drivetrain used widely across the Toyota product line. He does not speak of Zephyr's other competitors, the Accura TL, & (RWD) Infiniti G35 - Cadillac CTS

ANT14

Mainly because how you mentioned, is actually the closest competitor. Let's not forget, most of these "entry luxury" vehicles started life using a platform from a lower stablemate. ES300, AcuraTL RSX TSX, Inifiti I30, G20, Jag X-type, Audi A3 A4 A6. And it's the most effective way of pulling off the stradegy.

So far it's too early to tell how the media accepts this vehicle, let alone, how the (sedan formally known as Futura) does as well.... THEN they can critisize all they want.

stickguy

The general public doesn't understand platform engineering anyway. They care more about how the car looks (or makes them look) and how it works, so it doesn't matter which platform it rides on if they do the job right.

nvbanker

for 95% of the public at least. Only we OCD types who like Edmunds even know what a platform is. And I don't care beyond the curiosity sake myself - if the car feels and drives right to me, I don't care what's underneath it. Just fun to know.

ANT14

I myself dislike FWD, and have always stuck to RWD. But having driven the Mazda6 extensively for testing, it's one of the best FWD vehicles I have had the pleasure of driving. It'll be much better for the Zephyr with the availability of AWD.

nvbanker

The X-Type is very noticeably balanced with the AWD feature, and it almost completely mitigages the normal feel of a FWD car. Probably in the AWD form, the Zephyr may not feel like a front driver at all. But, ANT, as a fellow LS admirer, how does it stack up in comparison? Would YOU be happy owning it? (Not trying to get you in a conflicting position here....sorry).

ANT14

The X-type's AWD system has a RWD bias of about 60% rear, the rear front and it's continiously engaged. Whereas the Zephyr will have a different system.

Would I be happy owning a X-type you mean, or the Zephyr?

nvbanker

A Zephyr - after owning 2 LSes.

ANT14

Would doubt it unless it's a continuously engaged AWD system. If it's Haldex system, which requires slippish from the front axles to transfer it to the rear, then it'll be engaged in FWD most of the time, and I'm anti-FWD for my needs.

I will have to wait till the Continental debuts, although I'm taking a serious look at the Mustang. If I can add more insulation and kill the loud exhaust of the V8, then I would be happy with that.

grbeck

The general public may not understand the intricacies of platform engineering, but they do have a pretty good feel for when a particular vehicle doesn't really reflect a marque's image, or when a platform hasn't been sufficiently upgraded to sell in a higher price bracket.

The public can easily discern the Honda roots that underlie Acuras, which is a big reason why that brand isn't a top-tier luxury marque.

And Cadillac really fell off the cliff in the mid-1980s, when the downsized, front-wheel-drive DeVilles began sharing far too much with the Olds Ninety-Eight and Buick Electra. The public was able to tell that something wasn't quite right with the wreath-and-crest division.

I like the Zephyr's looks, but I hope Ford has gone the extra mile to make sure buyers can't discern the DNA from the car-formerly-known-as-Futura.

nvbanker

More info available on that? My first two Lincolns were Continentals....still fond of the name.

ANT14

Shhhh, Not yet....

nvbanker

Darn it.

jerry3840

This car has caught my interest, as I will be buying a car in late 2005. Right now, the ones I am focusing on are the TL, G35, 300C and perhaps the B6 Passat.

If, as someone posted previously, the Lincoln team monitors these forums, then here is my take on this car for them:

1 - Completely agree with Edmunds initial take...the name has got to go. No one under the age of 75 cares at all about some "Zephyr" heritage from the 1930's. The name only reminds me of the horrible and ugly Mercury Zephyr I had to drive for a company car back in 1982. Please come up with a cooler name. Don't make the same mistake Buick did when they referenced "Harley Earl" in their commercials...someone nobody cared about or understood.

2 - Agree with a previous poster about the interior color scheme. No doubt the interior is attractive, but the colors kind of wash out. Consider going with the two-tone treatment used by Audi/VW and others.

3 - Please keep option packages as simple as possible, as Acura does with the TL (i.e. navi vs. non-navi / manual vs auto..and not much else to decide upon). One of the reasons I have avoided American cars for many years is because of the multitude and complexity of option packages and inherent tricks to get the customer to buy more than what they need in order to get what they want.

4 - I suppose there is no chance a manual transmission will be offered....but it would be nice and will attract even more entry-level luxury enthusiasts to this car. If it is going to be built off of the Mazda 6 platform, why can't it be available with a manual, as is the case with the Mazda 6?

That's about it. It is a very attractive car and hopefully heralds a new era for Lincoln in this highly competitive space.

Finally, thanks go to ANT14 for all of the valuable info provided. Please keep us updated as the launch of this vehicle approaches.

maverick

Hey Ant14, tell the boys upstairs not to overprice this car out of the shoot. It needs to stay under $35,000 fully loaded. $28,000 would be a good base. It's well under the $29,995 base on the others it will compete with. Maybe then the car won't depreciate so quickly like the LS. I am the proud owner of a 2000 LS V8, I love the car, hate the jag motor (problems with the individual coils going out one by one). I bought this car in Sept 02 for 45% of what it sold new for. Why would I buy the Zephyr new when I will be able to get a 03 or 04 LS for under $20K?. Also get rid of the name Zephyr it reminds me of the crap that was built on the Fox platform in the late 70's. How about ZS or Mark X (10).

ANT14

I also had a 2000 LS8 with no issues up till 125K miles when I traded in for a newer one.

Issue with the LS, it was trying to fill too much of a gap. Reach down low (being an entry luxury vehicle) around $30K, and can easily escalate to $43K and then some.

The Zephyr will fill the entry level, and push the LS up a bit, or more so...You might find more LS' with the V8 and equipped a bit more luxuriously so the Zephyr will reach the entry level as it should have been. And the LS itself will have a new mission next time around, but fill out the same price points the Zephyr will push it into.

Depreciation is a factor when there's so many of them in the market. Ford has been doing well lately selling less models to fleet customer's (rental car agencies, etc), allowing them to gain better profits per vehicle, at the cost of market share BUT profit is the goal overall.

Notice how many GM's, Toyota's, there are at Hertz. I say what better way of depreciating your competitors than using to do so.

maverick

Hey Ant14, tell the boys upstairs not to overprice this car out of the shoot. It needs to stay under $35,000 fully loaded. $28,000 would be a good base. It's well under the $29,995 base on the others it will compete with. Maybe then the car won't depreciate so quickly like the LS. I am the proud owner of a 2000 LS V8, I love the car, hate the jag motor (problems with the individual coils going out one by one). I bought this car in Sept 02 for 45% of what it sold new for. Why would I buy the Zephyr new when I will be able to get a 03 or 04 LS for under $20K?. Also get rid of the name Zephyr it reminds me of the crap that was built on the Fox platform in the late 70's. How about ZS or Mark X (10).

seminole_kev

side conversation, but either of you two in the know, feel free to spill your guts about the upcoming Jag F-type....if you can say anything. Is it a continuation of the stillborn F-type program or a completely different car?

ANT14

Look for the next generation X-type, since it'll share platform with it.

Kirstie_H

If you want to create a separate Jag discussion, feel free to do so!

seminole_kev

Well if I thought it would generate more than 3 posts I would, but doesn't sound like much info's out there. Just was following up with ANT's comment. Really curious as this sounds like it could be a completly different car than the F-type was going to be.

wkarson

So, I'm pretty aware that once an auto manufacturer puts a name on a car, even a concept such as the Zephyr, it's a tough sell to change. However for me it conjures up negative images of those wonderful 1970's downsized pieces of garbage (Lincoln Versaille...errr Ford Granada anyone?).

Please Lincoln, if you're listening or roving/monitoring here, please change the name to something a bit more contemporary. And while I'm definitely not a fan of the alpha-numeric naming convention so popular w/ the Euro & Japanese manufacturers (and forced down the collective consumer throat -- Acura Legend, nay, RL anyone???), I would like to see something a bit more creative, though not so flowerish or nose-in-the-air-ish as Lincoln has been so prone to prior to the LS (no fan of that name either), which is exactly why I would never even consider buying a Lincoln prior to this.

Oh, and Lincoln, I'm a 33 year old single male living in San Francisco w/ a six-figure income. I have no car (sent my '95 Mazda Millenia to the family in the Mid-West...very fond of Mazda products, so there, you have my admitted bias), so I need a compelling reason to buy one for my not-so-insubstantial commute. I'd love to get a 3-series, but they're way too cliched. I'd even love the G35, but same deal there. There are some serious money cars in the parking lot at work, so I'll want to come to the table strong if I get a car. Hence, I want something different that someone in my demographic would stand out in, but still be the envy of my friends for owning. And it would be nice if it carried some resale value into the future (this point is absolutely key, as perception is reality in this example. All apologies to LS owners). BMW doesn't worry about resale value, and neither do thier owners, which is why it's such a safe bet to buy one, let alone the brilliant performance and handling they offer (yes you can argue BMW produces a tiny amount overall in comparison to Ford, but it's the concept I'm speaking of here).

I would generally never consider a domestic product, though Chrysler has some sexy product in their stable now (it's about time). What needs to happen is for Ford to come out w/ this Mazda 6-based sedan w/ a real effort. No jeking the public's chain w/ the wonderful concept, and then pulling the rug from underneath us w/ the production model. Don't water it down. Don't let the competition make a joke of you. Please give it a real effort. Full-time AWD w/ a real-rear-wheel-bias would be nice, and since European Ford uses that already in the X-Type, the concept I'm speaking of isn't so far fetched (though pricing may be an issue...which I find hard to believe since the X-Type was designed to compete w/ the BMW 3-series class anyway). Yes I'm absolutely aware the X-Type is based on an entirely different platform, but as long as we're discussing bringing new cars to market here, then why not throw that idea out there?

My $0.02 (if it's even worth that) is Lincoln really nailed the design. I truly enjoy the overall look. There has been some Town Hall discussion here about the interior color scheme and not liking it, but I'm a big fan of the pictures put out there. What I'd be terribly disappointed about is if the production model is so very clearly cheapened on its way to market, and thereby cheapening the overall look and feel. We all know that concept cars look great, but rarely (if ever) make it unscathed by the accountant's scalpel. I'd hate to see the production model die the death from a thousand cuts. Please keep the quality in. Quality sells. Period.

Thanks for listening. And hey, these are just my opinions, so maybe they're worth nothing. I'm a humble guy...but probably someone dead-on in Lincoln's juicy demographic cross-hairs.

ANT14

"However for me it conjures up negative images of those wonderful 1970'"

Thing is, many people won't. I myself am 28, and if it wasn't for researching the vehicles, I wouldn't know what a Versailles was really about... Let alone even vaguely remember what it resembles... I do not remember nything prior to the Aero cars of the 80's I grew up around.

The Zephyr will be more of a competitor to the Lexus Es330, and drive a bit more like it...than that of a BMW 3 Series. In other words, a bit cushier but not Buick like either. Ford positions the Jag X-type as the closest offering to a 3-series, more so than the Zephyr will... But the X-type will undergo it's own changes in it's next redesign to better compete with the 3-Series.

And as for drivetrain, it'll be FWD, but AWD version will be available soon after. 3.0L V6, with a higher output 230-240HP and 6 Speed automatic, which will make thorse horses seem much stronger.

jerry3840

To the Ford/Lincoln monitoring this board... based on a variety of previous posts, the message is clear. You've got to pick a better name than "Zephyr".

This space you are about to get into is too brutally competitive to go in with a car name that most think is ugly and reminds then of 1970's junk.

a_l_hubcaps

Heh, the Zephyr and Futura names definitely do remind me of the late '70s Fords...except for me, that's actually a plus. I love the way cars from that era looked. I guess I'm just odd, though I think it's worth noting that I'm 20 years old (not a senior citizen, the group usually associated with liking '70s cars). Both my brother and his girlfriend (both 18) own cars from the '70s too. They seem to consider cars from that era to be a sort of counterculture fashion statement, whereas I just like them for what they are. Everything old is new again, I guess.

-Andrew L

nvbanker

Sadly, NOBODY is old enough on Edmunds to probably remember the original Lincoln Zephyr (If I had any skill, I'd find you a pic and post it here, but I don't). It was beautiful, and an "entry level" Lincoln, the first one IIRC, and kind of saved Lincoln at a time when money was scarce. This little Lincoln is being true to the heritage of the name, and unfortunately, the Mercury Zephyr diluted the image for those of us still able to remember.

Still, this name isn't getting much of a nod from anybody here, is it? Must admit, I'm not sure it works for me either. OTOH, my Dad (deceased, of course) remembered the original, and liked it and the name. Maybe just not the time to exhume Zephyr?

buckwheat

http://www.geocities.com/gary_walters/36lincoln.html

nvbanker

Ahhh, thank you much, buckwheat! Just what I ordered!! I'm sure in its day, it was a headturner.....

ANT14

I turned my head alright...

I'm sure 50 year's from now people will look at our cars of today and wonder "What were they thinking"... Oh wait, we have the Aztek to wonder about...

wkarson

Buckwheat, you rock for sending that link! Thx.

Hmmm...let me see...the 1936 Zephyr has fender skirts, suicide doors, fender integrated headlamps, and no waterfall grill. Wow, exactly like the new concept Zephyr! Now it's so clear to me why Lincoln is drawing on its nomenclature heritage.

Truth is boys & girls, that Ford is ceding German territory to their very own Jaguar to carry the torch and take that battle on. As ANT14 said, it will be more Lexus ES330 (read: Buick [please remember, Buick said they want to be the domestic Lexus]) than Auto Union, Benz, or Bimmer.

Also, ANT14, you have wonderful insight, and I very much want to thank you for your commentary. Your views are great!

Lincoln, please read what a_l_hubcaps says above. While he's only 20 years old and won't be able to buy a new Lincoln for years to come, he at least has bit the hook dangling in the proverbial consumer waters. No, I'm not agreeing that "old is new again" as a_l_hubcaps said (though apparently Ford/J Mays believes in certain selections that it is...evidence the current [and about to die] Thunderbird, new Mustang, new GT, etc), but at least you have a young consumer that wouldn't mind stepping into one of your cars in 10-15 years, and simply needs the excuse of a promising and competitive automobile to keep him there. I promise you this...he is not alone.