Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

joe97

I am in full agreement with you there. I was merely replying to the comparisons others started.

While on topic, I think many would share the same sentiments that VW is priced higher than most of its competitors - while it may be true VW is more luxury (entry-luxury) than most of its competitors, most consumers, at least here in the states, still view VW as entry-level with the rest of the group. I should mention, however, the brand's latest price range on its volume cars have become more attractive - good for consumers even when VW is not making a penny.

m1miata

One needs air conditioning in a modern day car.

jeffyscott

The Jetta is over priced

I don't think so, if you really consider it to be "value priced luxury". What does it compete with in that category...Volvo S40, TSX???

I think perhaps in the higher trim lines and with option packages many felt it was priced too high, but I don't think the 2005-06 Value edition was over-priced (we paid invoice).

The 2007 does start lower, however, base invoice (including destination) is now $16,516 and MSRP is $17,120.

m1miata

Wish it looked more like the old Jetta. New style is a bit like they cut off the back end of a Japanese car and stuck it on Jetta. The Audi looking front end I guess is good. At least it is different and change can be a good thing :shades:

I think more people would move it up on their buying list, if it were not for the electrical problems, and other woes over the years. Reliability can become an issue, even with a car which has some cool factor to it.

Test drove the Jetta with the 2.o engine and found to be enough torque off the line, then a sluggish life thereafter.
With the inline 5, perhaps it has enough power now. May test a couple some day, like the Rabbit and the Jetta. The Beetle is cute, but do I really want a car with a flower vase?
-Loren

goodegg

All these cars have ESC ABS etc.

I've never had (or been in) a major accident, or even one where air bags deployed. When I recently shopped for another car, safety wasn't my #1 criterion because I expected all the cars I looked at have good safety appointments, and they did. My best friend just bought a new car too and he didn't list safety as his major factor when buying his car.

I think the 4 out of 5 inference is pretty close.

I think people shop looks and reliability before anything else.

scape2

"Okay, at least now I understand why you think Fusion's interior is on par with the Camcords. I guess some of us's standard are higher than the other's"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. back at ya brother..

Typical CamCord owner response... To be expected..

scape2

Hey, the media along with Honda have managed to hype up the new Civic so much.. I know a guy who paid over $19,000 for a Civic EX automatic!!! :surprise:

pat

talk about the cars instead of each other ...

That would be what we're about here, after all.

joe97

I am fairly certain most consumers would tell you the Jetta competes with Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Sentra, and alikes, more so than your entry-premium peformers such as S40, or TSX.

venus537

i'm not one of them.

the jetta 2.0t is indeed comparable to a TSX. in terms of performance, interior ambiance, fit and finish, ride and handling and features. and i think the tsx is a great car.

m1miata

What would worry me most about the 2.0 engine is the oil consumption problems some people have with that engine. The electrical problems seem to be prevalent as well. If you end up with a relatively trouble free Jetta, it seems to be a good car in many a way. And it does seem to be a cut above the Civics and such. The older Civics, of say a decade ago, had good handling, with the double wishbone suspension, and were really reliable. The new ones look cool, and hopefully are reliable. Once inside, I did not like the feel - the cab forward, extra long dash, and only seeing the wiper blades ahead of me as cars front. Are the A pillars now-a-days larger, or just stuck out so far as to get in the way of sight. For some reason they seem huge now.

The new Jetta and other VWs may be worth considering. Anyone heard how the inline 5 engine is oil consumption wise?
-Loren

venus537

"Open your mind, release your mind from all the constant bashing of Ford and GM over the years from the media. Quality fit/finish is right in front of your face.. Once again. I am not saying the Fusion interior is better than Accord or Camry. I am confident it is on par however."

we're back to the media again are we?

i think these posters have examined the fusion's interior for themselves and came to the conclusion that the accord's interior is at a higher level.

too bad i wasn't with you and the salesmen when you were comparing the fusion next to an accord. i surely could of pointed out some differences to you.

venus537

i think you're confusing the old 2.0 with the much more advanced and highly regarded 2.0t (an updated and much improved version of the 1.8t). The 2.0t is an awesome engine that provides an outstanding combination of acceleration and fuel economy. the 2.5 engine replaces the 2.0 as the base engine for the jetta.

mfletou1

I just can't imagine why the Ford dealer would agree so heartily that the Fusion is right on par with the Accord. Hmm...let me think about it...

When I looked at everything, I thought the Fusion's interior was very nice. Nicer than our Malibu. About the same as the new Impala which is very nice too. I thought that the Accord's was nicer, and then when I discovered the new Camry, I thought that was the nicest yet.

With my GM cars, all of them were fine at the beginning. It was a year or two down the road when things went very far south. So I tend to try to withold judgement on car like the Fusion with no track record. To an extent the Sonata. The Accord is a proven product at this point. The new gen Camry is not quite as much, but its coming from a manufactuer with such a reputation for quality (unlike Ford & GM) that anything other than a great track record will be a surprise. (And yes, I'm aware of the isolated problems on the new Camry, which are not affecting 95%+ of Camry's sold--to read this particular board you'd think every Camry delivered is in crisis).

m1miata

Excellent! Anything but the 2.o . Not familiar with the 2.ot. Would be looking for the 2.5.

exshoman

I'd have to agree with you. When we were shopping for a car for my wife, my personal preference was the Mazda6. We ended up buying an Accord EX-L 5 speed. The wife just liked the feel of the Honda better. That, and the fact you could get heated seats with the 4 cylinder. Kudos to Honda for being able to order a fully loaded car and still get a stick.

You CAN get a 6 with 4-cyl, manual AND heated seats. All you need is leather seats.

I just tried to configure a Mazda6i with heated seats, and the only models with leather are the 6i Touring and 6i Grand Sport, and they both have an automatic.

The Fusion/Milan is another midsize that allows a stick shift with any trim level/options. It's a bit more difficult finding anything other than a pretty stripped Fusion with a stick though.

m1miata

The media did not build the cars. They simply reported what was evident. Actually the reviews and survey results pretty much match the users experiences with the GM and Ford vehicles. If people had more confidence in the Big Two, they would perhaps be driving more of those cars as I type this message. Not the fault of the media or the consumer, as the Big Two automakers over the course of time left their clients will little to no confidence in some or all their products. Some cars by both makers seem to have captured more clients attention and thus some have sold more. Mustang seems to have sold over the years. The Cadillac CTS seems to be doing OK, and has a pretty good reliability rating. There are cars made by the Big Two which are getting better reviews, and there are those which are selling. Reviews on Japan and now some Korean made cars may be more favorable to the product for good reason, as in a better product. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and others keep reporting higher sales, and Ford and GM report lower sales. People are voting with their money.

The reports of better quality, fit and finish on cars pretty much match the reality. I suppose a slight bias may exist, but you don't have far to look back in history to realize where that originates. Too many a car from the Big Two were sub par in the build. Toyota and Honda, as examples, pretty much got it right. VW is a prime example of what a quality interior should look like. Unfortunately, they have their electrical woes, as noted by the media and owners. It is all pretty much a reflection of the real world experience and what is in fact before ones eyes. Another consideration is how the car looks far past the present. I know a Toyota or Honda will look good inside and out years later. I have had GM cars which after three to five years looked near retirement age. The latest GM and Ford product looks a bit better overall. Will it last is anyone's guess.

Then there is the fun factor. If you enjoy driving, then why not test out all the cars. VW (hopefully getting reliability act together) and Mazda may be a place to start for sedan fun drives. I plan to drive them all, when looking at a sedan. The Charger looks like a good bargain in the RWD class of car. Hard not to love Accords reliability and engines. Camry new look is pretty interesting now, and given a year to work out the transmission problems, should be a good buy. Fusion, is one to watch. Will the 2007 warranty be a good one, and will they add side air bags ( I think they are doing so), and then there is the Sonata, which I am keeping an eye on reports of strange sounds and gas mileage figures, before even considering the car for a test drive. I have time, and will dig into all the reports, data, and chat.
-Loren

backy

I think people shop looks and reliability before anything else.

Reliability is up there, yes. But looks? Then how do you explain the popularity of cars like the Accord and Camry, which lead this segment in sales year after year and are widely regarded as not being the best looking in the class?

In this class, I think it's reliability, safety, comfort, fuel economy (especially now), price/value, and resale value that sell. As long as a car isn't hideous, it will sell.

jeffyscott

The new Jetta and other VWs may be worth considering. Anyone heard how the inline 5 engine is oil consumption wise?

It probably varies. Ours used none in the first 5000 miles and was down maybe, at most, 1/4 of a quart by the second oil change at 10,000 mi.

louiswei

Typical CamCord owner response... To be expected..

WRONG!!

Not a Camcord owner here...

elroy5

Hey, the media along with Honda have managed to hype up the new Civic so much.. I know a guy who paid over $19,000 for a Civic EX automatic!!!

So what's the problem with that? If the Civic has enough interior space for him, and has everything he wants. He knows the quality and reliability will be there. He will also get much better gas mileage than any midsize car will. Just because it would not be your choice, doesn't mean it's the wrong choice for him. All the Civic buyers can't be wrong, can they?

lahiri

I paid the same for a new 2006 CR-V (2WD LX) :P

driverdm

I think the Jetta is overpriced for a couple reasons. THe first is that there is no way you should be able to option it up to Passat levels so fast. Now the Passat trully walks the tight rope of top of the mid size sedan segment and entry level luxury car. Maybe its because of the Jetta's styling. Until you get to the upper models, the interior doesn't have the wood that I think makes it look very upscale. The exterior styling is generic where I think the Passats (though bland) is more individual and more VW.

PS. If I buy a Passat which is tied on the top of my short list of cars to replace my Mazda6 with a Ford Fusion, I'd spend very heavily on moding the exterior and interior to get the design to be more daring and perfect. I really am a sucker for style first and then everything else. If I can't look at it, we have a serious problem. The stock Passat is a little bland, but the one I am creating will be head turning.

venus537

"Now the Passat trully walks the tight rope of top of the mid size sedan segment and entry level luxury car."

and the jetta 2.0t is a cheaper alternative to the audi A3.

i cringe at what you might mean by a more daring and perfect design. i think that's what you're going to enjoy most about your car, modifying it. my co-worker is constantly modifying his impala (the older RWD one).

jeffyscott

Until you get to the upper models, the interior doesn't have the wood that I think makes it look very upscale.

Well that is another example of individual style preferences, I really want no wood (or fake wood) in my car. I do not like that look at all.

driverdm

"i cringe at what you might mean by a more daring and perfect design."

Ahhh Venus imagine a little bit. I do like modding my cars. I like design and personalization and change cars about every three years. The current two top on my list of replacements for my Mazda6 next year are a Ford Fusion, and a VW Passat. Both appeal to me because modded right, they can look outstanding. The benefits of the Fusion are that you don't have to do any kind of drop too it and with 18 inch rims you can still ahve a 225/45 tire which means your ride quality won't be bad at all. The benefits to the Passat are that it looks luxurios and has manu-shift.

If I buy the VW it will be a base 2.0T (Value Edition). I am going to do a VW stock sport springs of about .75 inches (not positive but it isn't that much of a drop, just enough to get rid of that too high look). I then will add the chrome strips that the upper level 3.6s have to the grill at the top and the bottom. Then some 18 inch chrome rims on the stock tire 18 inch rim size of 235/40. Then a little lip spoiler for the back and I am done with the exterior. Not much changes but just enough.

Here is a link to a picture of what I'd like it to look like, tell me what you think.

link title

driverdm

"and the jetta 2.0t is a cheaper alternative to the audi A3."

See I see the VW Rabbit as a cheaper alternative to an A3. I see the Pasat as a cheaper alternative to a 3-Series. I think with their next rendition of the Passat they should move it even more upscale with a more sweeping design and handling and material quality so that people see it as a really cheaper 5-Series. It sin't that far off. THey have to watch the price though. They may want to build it in Mexico to keep the costs down. I think the Jetta should be their cheaper 3-Series which it isn't because of the engines in it and the lack of original styling. I think if they had locked down the exterior styling, the engine performance, and better packaging they could have really made the car out to be a cheaper 3-Series. The car ain't that far off now but it is hard to see BMW as a beanchmark when the car has a startling resemblence to a Toyota Corolla. The old Jetta used to be the poor man's 3-Series... then again the old Passat was also known as the poor man's 3-Series but you get my point.

jordanrobinson

For the 2007 Model year not only does the Fusion have standard side-impact airbags, but they took it one step further and included front and rear row side curtain airbags. Seems like Ford's purchase of Volvo is really beginning to integrate into thier models! On top of that All wheel drive is avialable for 2007 as well. It should make the Fusion extremely attractive in this class.

ace35

For the 2007 Model year not only does the Fusion have standard side-impact airbags, but they took it one step further and included front and rear row side curtain airbags

So just for clarity here, are you stating that the 07' fusion will have seat mounted rear side airbags, or just the full lenght side curtains which are already on the 06' fusion?

jordanrobinson

Nah I meant that it would have the curtains again along with front side impact airbags. But they are standard on all models now. I don't think that was the case in 06'. Sorry for any confusion.

prosource1

Had a Sonata rental for the weekend and here are my observations. First, I owned a Sonata and my ownership experience was extremely positive. This rental experience was not for these reasons:

1. Door handles and mirrors are very cheap and nothing like the Sonata's that I owned that came from Korea. The drivers side mirror black casing that attaches mirror to body was falling off!!!
2. The interior grab handle was broken off. I pulled on the grab handle on drivers side and it wasn't as sturdy as in my Honda Pilot.
3. Paint in current Sonata is far better but still not as good as my Honda. No there yet. than previous Hyundai's
4. Gas mileage was awful! This 2.4 4 cylinder received only 18.8 in town driving and 19.6 respectively. After receiving only 18.8, I backed off to see how much better I could do and no matter how careful I was, I couldn't get 20mpg. Hyundai has a problem here.
5. Engine and tranny smooth and responsive
6. Stereo was good.
7. Drivers seat was a 'slide-off-er' unless in its lowest position. Couldn't get comfortable. How can Hyundai let this happen? I owned Sonatas and the seats were always very comfortable with several adjusters.

Disappointed!

booyahcramer

Drivers seat was a 'slide-off-er' unless in its lowest position. Couldn't get comfortable. How can Hyundai let this happen?

An obvious oversight in an otherwise decent vehicle. During my test drive it was so aggrivating trying to love the car when I felt like I was always sliding forward in the driver's seat. This seems like a quick fix.

scottl

I'm surprised there is very little mention of the Mazdaspeed6 in this discussion. Mazda is blowing these out at 22.5K for the sport model and 25.5k for the GT.

Both have 274hp, slick 6-speed manual, AWD, Bose stereo with 6 CD changer, side airbags, 18" wheels, huge and awesome (read the reviews) 4-wheel disks, stability control, and very nice interiors with climate control and leather wrapped surfaces. The GT adds power heated leather, heated mirrors, card-key system with remote start. 25MPG with the rare person able to restrain themselves reporting even higher mileage.

Downsides would be no trunk passthrough(sacrificed for body stiffening) and the added expense of speeding tickets.

No automatic available, sorry.

Nothing can touch it for the price. I don't NEED a new car, but these are steals. I drove one over the weekend, and it was awesome. I am sorely tempted.

kdshapiro

"No automatic available, sorry."

Don't you think this might be a small issue to some people? This car could sell for $20K and wouldn't even make the end of my long list.

thegraduate

Considering that for every maunal car sold these days, there are about 15 automatics, I can certianly see why that car isn't selling as hot as it should.

elroy5

I'm surprised there is very little mention of the Mazdaspeed6 in this discussion.

I think the Mazdaspeed6 is too much on the "sport" side, than the "family" side of the equation. And it just doesn't look like a "family" sedan.

No automatic available, sorry.

Most moms want an auto. sorry.

vhreb123

Looks good

-Ever thought about modding the new generations of Hondas and Toyotas such as the Accord and Camry?

driverdm

I thought about an Accord coupe but it doesn't offer manu-shift, a big minus in my book and everybody has one. There is nothing I can do about the Camry's syling. The Camcord sedans just don't have the styling building blocks like the Fusion and VW Passat do. Also there is some srrange pleasure in having a car that you don't see all over the place and the ones you do see don't look anything like your's. I try to keep my modifications very classy and livable. No 20 inch rims where you feel every crack in the road. And no nitro, ultra low, funky lights, or any of the rest of it that you'd see at a SEMA show. I like my cars to look like a special production model that the OEM would do. I can't wait for the next project. I wish I could do them both.

kdshapiro

"Also there is some srrange pleasure in having a car that you don't see all over the place and the ones you do see don't look anything like your's"

I know what you allude to. The best place in the world to drive a Camcord is in So. Cal. Must feel like it's an exclusive event, because everybody drives Porsches, BMWs and Mercedes.

I drive the car for me and don't think twice about how many or not, are out there. There is a reason for their popularity.

lweiss

The Mazda6 is not that great a seller (in comparison to the Camry and Accord and Altimas) but to me is attractive and offers a lot of value. And the MazdaSpeed at 22K seems like a real deal. But 25mpg- I doubt that, at least for my 90% city driving- it's rated at 19mpg (and they recommend premium fuel) but I think if you do a lot of highway driving, 25mpg is possible. But since I do so much city driving, a "manual only" model would have no interest- call me lazy but a manumatic has more appeal. Funny that in Europe, so many more manual cars are sold, even the luxury ones (in Munich, Germany some years ago, I was in an S-class Mercedes taxi- diesel and manual transmission- I thought it was strange!).

backy

I am pretty sure the Accord coupe is available with a manual shift, including a 6-speed in the V6 coupe. Or did you mean a manu-matic? If so, c'mon, be a MAN, get a REAL stick!!!

scottl

Real owners have reported Mazdaspeed6 mileage as high as 27mpg highway. This is the beauty of a 4 cyl turbo. If you keep your foot out of it, you can get great mileage.

I guess if you spend more than 50% of your time in stop and go traffic, an automatic is preferable, but in reality I think most people are just addicted to automatics. This is neither good nor bad. Well, actually it is good when it comes to getting a good deal on a car like the Mazdaspeed6, because the manual eliminates a lot of people who would otherwise bid up the price.....

jordanrobinson

It would be a lot of fun to see an SVT Fusion with a similar setup to the Mazdaspeed6. Even without the turbo they could put the 3.5L V6 with a manual tranny and if tuned right the car would be all kinds of fun. One can wish.

w9cw

And, just think when you purchase a Mazda, at the very least, you're supporting Ford Corporation.

scottl

Whatever. The Mazdaspeed6 is built in Japan, the rest of the Mazda6's are built in Michigan, I believe.

I have owned two Mazdas in the past, and they were both very reliable. The '06 Mazdas have a 5/50 warantee, but the '07s are going back to 3/36. Another reason to get an '06.

kdshapiro

Actually this car would be fun, practical and a steal at the price.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=41&article_id=8310

PF_Flyer

Hope you can join us for a little meet and greet with your fellow Mazda enthusiasts!

The Mazda Club Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule

jeffyscott

The '06 Mazdas have a 5/50 waranty, but the '07s are going back to 3/36. Another reason to get an '06.

Not quite...the '06 is 4/50. The 07 is 3/36, but with 5/60 on the power train.

scape2

Mazda 6speed is a pure drivers car. Mazda hit it on the money with this car. Reviews and owners reviews are great. This car is a 6 on steroids. This car is a steal. For the price/performance when comparing other like sports sedans this car screams value, quality, performance.

Now I hope and pray Ford pays attention and will do the something of the same for the Fusion/Milan. My fingers are crossed.

scape2

"Also there is some srrange pleasure in having a car that you don't see all over the place and the ones you do see don't look anything like your's."

Yes!!! someone else who thinks out of the box. This is one of my driving forces that pushed me into the Fusion SEL V6 I now own. I wanted different, not the sme old mundane Camry/Accord story.. :sick: