Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

jeffyscott

10 year warranty, 0% APR, etc. are misleading. If I am stuck 350 miles from my home because of engine gasket problem or a transmission leak, the long warranty or low APR wouldn't make me feel any better.

I think I would feel a little better than I would if there were no warranty remaining.

Now, I would feel a lot better about the leaky gaskets ($1500-1700 repair) on my Ford Windstar that is 9 years old with 98,000 miles, if Ford would pay for the repair. Instead Ford paid for the repair of the same parts on the same 3.8L engines, if the engine were installed in certain other vehicles...but they will not pay when the engine is in one of their Windstars :mad: .

backy

...I will also ignore any promotions on them as well.

Excuse me, I am having trouble understanding your thinking here. There are many good cars in this class. What if it turns out that more than one of them cross the bar for you, or maybe you even like a couple of them equally as well. Wouldn't it matter to you if one car costs a few thousand bucks less than the other car because of incentives, or one offers 0% financing, or one has a much longer/better warranty than the other? Sure, you have to like the car first, but why ignore all promotions? They could materially affect your TCO.

lahiri

Well, I don't think you'll get 0% APR on Accord or a 10 year warranty. Typically, the vehicles you want don't come with great deals.

I have side seat mounted airbags on Protege, and curtain and side seat mounted airbags on my CR-V. I also have ABS on both. But I don't have features like leather, Bose stereo or Navigation. I saved by avoiding these fancy features. I believe the best way to save is to give up fancy features; buying the "second best" in my mind is hard for me.

lahiri

The tranny repair cost is probably more than the resale value of your Windstar. Trade it in when the new Edge arrives

backy

Actually, there are great deals available on Accords due to Honda-to-dealer incentives that allow dealers to sell the cars for way under invoice or offer excellent lease deals on them. I have often seen low APR financing on Hondas, including Accords. I guess I should avoid Accords then because of these incentives, and look only for cars that are going for full MSRP? Sorry, I just don't follow your reasoning.

You yourself gave testamony to the value of a long warranty--you paid extra to get one! Why pay extra if you don't need it, due to the great quality of the car? Or because the warranty is included with the car?

"Second best" is relative. For me, the Protege wss "second best" (to a Hyundai) because of its harsh ride. You can save by giving up fancy features, but you can also save by buying the lowest-priced car that meets your needs--even if it happens to have special incentives on it.

lahiri

I said: ... "second best" in my mind. I knew this "best" is more of personal bias. Also, I bought CR-V $400 below invoice. I don't compare prices. CR-V, 4 cyl RAV-4, VUE, Tucson are all in the same price range and I just picked the one I liked most. Negotiating for the price and getting the financing comes after that.

The 7 year/ 100,000 mile warranty on CR-V was just $210. This is not just a powertrain warranty. This is a mechanical failure warranty (excludes wear/ tear like tires, brakes, batteries). I bought the warranty from GEICO, my insurance company. The low cost of the warranty indicates the reliability of the vehicle and sort of makes me think that I made a good choice.

A manufacturer provided long warranty is no substitute for reliability of the vehicle. Dodge's 7 year warranty or Hyundai's 10 year warranty don't make me comfortable. Toyota, Honda, Nissan can sell cars without such long warranties.

killerbunny

Regarding Just found a poster who paid over $4,000 more for his Toyota Camry like optioned to my Fusion. He has stability control, blue tooth and MP3 that I don't have, along with 39 more HP.. Is it worth it? Now, I hope his resale is better, it had better be!!

Whether the Camry is indeed worth $4000 more than your Fusion, I do not know. But I can assure you that the Camry's resale will be much better than the Fusion(in terms of % of original price), even with the useless fancy craps. Toyota has earned their name, with persistent dedication.

backy

How did you know all those SUVs were in the same price range if you don't compare prices? Oh, never mind. Everyone has his own process. It's just a lot different than the process I use, as I consider price in my decision, once a car has met all my other requirements.

I paid $0 for the 5-year bumper-to-bumper and 10-year powertrain warranty on my Hyundai. I guess the low cost of the warranty indicates the reliability of the vehicle and sort of makes me think that I made a good choice.

Did you think less of Honda when, a few years ago, they increased their powertrain warranty from 3 years to 5 years? Or do you think less of Infiniti because they offer a longer warranty than does Nissan? Or Lexus, because their warranty is longer than Toyota's? Yes, companies like Honda can sell cars w/o long warranties. Then folks like you have to shell out extra money to get the peace of mind that comes with a long warranty.

jimmy81

Then folks like you have to shell out extra money to get the peace of mind that comes with a long warranty.

I owned an Accord for 4 years and a Camry for 5 and never had a single thing ever go wrong with either car.

I'll take that performance to heart more than someone throwing a 10 year warranty at me to earn my business.

joe97

Backy, I believe HMA will continue its 10/100 warranty...we'll see soon enough

And, as a follow-up, just for the record, HMA exec has stated since the 10/100 warranty was introduced in the US, warranty costs have reduced by half (you can also see similar results and improvements in various studies from reputabale organizations). Obviously this is not just some marketing gimmicks some people percept to believe. Hyundai builds quality/reliable cars. PERIOD.

jeffyscott

While I would not buy a car because it had a longer warranty, I certainly would not consider it a negative. Sonata does not appeal to me, despite the long warranty.

When my wife decided on Jetta, I thought it was a nice extra to get the 4 year and 5 year power train warranty. Some will say they have a longer warranty because of past problems, which may or may not be the case...but for us we were going to petty much buy what we wanted anyway.

Not going to overpay for a car we don't like because of supposed marginally better "reliability" and also not going to buy a car we don't like just to get a longer warranty for "free".

Sometimes I think the Honota fans believe that everyone who owns any other make is stranded with a broken down car about once a month.

Meanwhile the Sonata fans perhaps do a bit too much cheerleading .

lahiri

We are all saying the same thing. When you buy an Accord, you can buy an Hyundai like warranty. You just need to pay extra for it. It's not true that you can't get a long warranty on a Honda. If you buy a Fusion now, you can get a 0% APR loan and save on interest. At the end of the day, everything translates to money. Question is whether you want to pay a bit more for the car you like.

Desirability is most important to me. Pricing is secondary. No matter what I pick - an Accord or a Sonata - I wouldn't be paying a E-Class price.

There are people who act based on the price (value for money, bang for the buck) even though that's not always the right strategy - often the cars that cost you more upfront have a lower true cost to own according to Edmunds.

louiswei

Desirability is most important to me. Pricing is secondary.

I second that. I know that if I buy a car that I desired I'll be happier down the road than buying a car which I'll need to find reasons to justify it.

lahiri

"Sometimes I think the Honota fans believe ..."

OOPS! I thought Honda and Toyota merged ... should they choose to merge, I will lobby for the Honota name

thesniper

"Maybe, all Sonata reviewers are working for Hyundai, not honest, or getting bribes from HYUNDAI? "

Ask Mr. CEO boy... didn't he earned his PH.D on this with years of experience?

thesniper

"Just found a poster who paid over $4,000 more for his Toyota Camry like optioned to my Fusion. He has stability control, blue tooth and MP3 that I don't have, along with 39 more HP.. Is it worth it? Now, I hope his resale is better, it had better be!!"

So what if his resale value is not better. Does it affect you? It was his money and not yours and you cannot dictate people on what would make them happy. Have a life man and let Ford take care of its media problem (if there is?).

bobad

If Hyundai can sell as many cars as they do today with less warranty (something like 5-7 years instead of 10 on the powertrain), I will consider one.

Are you saying a shorter warranty is better than a longer one? You'll have to explain your rationale for that one!

bobad

The 7 year/ 100,000 mile warranty on CR-V was just $210

That's a pretty long warranty. I thought you didn't like long warranties?

Which is a better deal, 7 year for $210, or 10 year for free? I can't wait for this one!

bobad

Desirability is most important to me. Pricing is secondary.

I'm certainly glad that's not the case for me. I don't think I could afford the notes on a Maybach.

kwonc71

I was talking to him yesterday. He is in NY and just started a business. His BMW gets old, so he was looking at used Camcord for about $15,000. I told him "Y don't you try new Sonata like I did. You will pay about same price for Brand new Hyundai as buying a used Camcord".

My nephew called me about 2 hours ago, and said "Father just brought home white Sonata. I will let him drive my MDX, and I will use Sonata". My nephew is only 23 years old and not happy with his MDX because it is slow and suck gas.
I hung up and called bro find out $16,900 out of the door for 07 white GLS with auto. He was excited and keep going in and out of the house to check the car out.

HAHAHA! One less Camcord, one more Sonata in NY.

meateater

I second that. I know that if I buy a car that I desired I'll be happier down the road than buying a car which I'll need to find reasons to justify it.

Exactly - I'll third that.

thesniper

"HAHAHA! One less Camcord, one more Sonata in NY."

It's a long road ahead and it looks like you need 300,000 brothers to accomplish your goal!

louiswei

Okay, I know it's none of my business and this is going to be off topic but I've gotta ask that did your nephew bought that MDX himself? If so, that's not bad a car for a 23-year-old. If not then it's kind of hard for me to believe that your brother bought his son a luxury SUV and himself driving a midsize sedan. What has the world coming to? Also, comparing car price in US to other country is just plain nonsense since the auto market is so unique in the states. I'll give you a quick example here: A BMW 3 series coupe cost about 45K here and in Taiwan it costs about 96K. So based on your logic wouldn't that make it a even better bargain?

By the way, since I am home now...

0-60 times:
Sonata: 6.6 sec
Accord: 5.9 sec

source: C&D

So the Sonata is NOT the fastest 0 to 60 car in this class like you said earlier. Also, 70-0 MPH braking distance:

Sonata: 181 ft
Accord: 180 ft
G6: 167 ft

Again, just showing that Sonata also does NOT have the shortest braking distance like you stated earlier.

kwonc71

300,000 also started from number 1 too. That 1 car will generate multiple numbers of Sonata sales in the long run. He will use it to pick up his employees- car pool car. My nephew already wants one too.

kwonc71

Did I said my bro bought MDX for his son?
Where did you get this funny numbers?

thesniper

"That 1 car will generate multiple numbers of Sonata sales in the long run. He will use it to pick up his employees- car pool car."

So this logic only applies to the Sonata?

louiswei

So again, just based on your logic, since there are more Camcords out there they will be able to generate more than the Sonata does right? With that, you are pretty much saying that there is no way that Sonata will ever catch up to the Camcords as in sales number.

Okay, Gotcha.

louiswei

First of all, what funny numbers?

Second, like I said if your bro didn't buy that MDX for his son then the son must bought it himself. Like I said earlier, that's pretty good for a 23-year-old.

kwonc71

Many people already knows what Camcord are. On the other hand, lots of people still don't know or not interested in Sonata just because its Hyundai. More Sonata people see on the road, more people might give a try? Is that make sense to you?

elroy5

15 to 20 years ago people started off buying their first Toyota or Honda, after years of owning domestic brands. They were impressed with these car's economy, reliability, and how well they held up over time and high mileage. They are now on their second or third. Until these Honda and Toyota buyers are disappointed with their cars, I don't see them going back to domestic cars. I will continue to buy Hondas, until I buy one that doesn't measure up to my expectations. 15 years now, and still going strong. I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. I have driven a few 06 models from domestic brands, and they have done little to change my opinion.

kwonc71

Have you ever heard of LEASING?
Go check the edmunds last MID-sedan comparo.

louiswei

Not really, there are still a lot of people who have never tried out a Camcord before just like they never tried out a Sonata. So based on that Sonata doesn't hold any advantages over Camcords. So again, based on your logic, since there are WAY more Camcords than Sonata on the road there are going to be more people see it and give it a try. Which is not looking good for the Sonata.

thesniper

"I have driven a few 06 models from domestic brands, and they have done little to change my opinion."

Pssst... don't say that. It's not in conformity with the "Media Conspiracy Theory".

louiswei

Well, those "funny" numbers (don't know why they are funny) are from Car & Driver. If you don't believe me go check it out youself.

Ah, yes, leasing makes sense. It just never crossed my mind since I don't do leasing.

ctalk

You quoted the 6SPEED manual Accord's numbers.

The Accord AUTO gets 6.6 Seconds, but beats the Sonata in the 1/4 mile.

As for braking 70-0:
Accord: 187 FEET
Sonata: 181 FEET

Lane Change:
Accord: 60.7
Sonata: 60.2

Roadholding:
Sonata/Accord :0.79

All taken from the December 2006 Mid-Size family sedan comparison.

louiswei

The followings are quoted from Edmunds' mid size sedan comparo video so don't shoot the messanger here...

#1: Camry
- "0-60 in 6.5 sec, the fastest in the group"
- "Offers more personality, performance and luxury"
- "Can be pricy but proves the old saying: You get what you paid for"

#2: Accord
- "Best handling in the class"

#3: Sonata
- "Steering is not as sharp as the Accord at slolam"
- "braking on par with others"
- "quitest cabin at 70 MPH, even quiter than the Camry"

#4: Fusion
- "bland interior"
- "European-feel handling"

So based on the comparo we can see that the Sonata is NOT the fastest and doesn't have the shortest braking distance.

ctalk

doesn't have the shortest braking distance.

I believe you're wrong here. You're just looking at the words, not the numbers.

My last post showed the performance numbers from C&D.

CARANDDRIVER:
Sonata: 181FEET
Accord: 187FEET
Fusion: 194FEET
Camry: 193FEET
EDMUNDS 60MPH-0:
Camry: 124.0
Sonata: 121.5
Accord: 130.2
Fusion 128.4

That's enough copy and pasting for one day :sick:

louiswei

I am sorry but I am looking at the September issue of the C&D here. Under the road test digest it shows Accord EX V-6 with a 70-0 MPH braking distance of 180 ft. Sonata is 181 ft just like you said.

ctalk

this September issue a comparison?

I can't find anything on it.

braking distance of 180 ft. Sonata is 181 ft just like you said
I quoted:
Accord: 187FEET
Sonata: 181FEET

louiswei

Nope, not a comparison. It's in the road test digest at the end of the magazine.

louiswei

By the way here are the technical data for this comparo (with the new 07' Camry)

#1: Camry
0 - 60 (sec): 6.5
60 - 0 (ft): 124.0

#2: Accord
0 - 60 (sec): 7.6
60 - 0 (ft): 130.2

#3: Sonata
0 - 60 (sec): 7.4
60 - 0 (ft): 121.5

#4: Fusion
0 - 60 (sec): 7.7
60 - 0 (ft): 128.4

In this comparo, Sonata has the shortest stopping distance with Camry takes the fastest 0-60 time.

ctalk

In this comparo, Sonata has the shortest stopping distance with Camry takes the fastest 0-60 time.

This contradicts your earlier statement of:

doesn't have the shortest braking distance.

--
Nope, not a comparison. It's in the road test digest at the end of the magazine

I rather look at the comparison test. The cars are tested side-by-side, on the same road. C&D did one in the December issue, where the Sonata DID have the shortest stopping distance.

louiswei

Yes, it does contradict with my earlier statement.

My earlier statement was based on C&D's numbers and that contracdicted with Edmunds' comparo data. If the verdict is that Sonata does indeed have the shortest stopping distance then I guess I learned something new today, which is good.

ctalk

I guess I learned something new today, which is good.
In the end, that's what's important
I always learn new things in these forums

thesniper

"I'm certainly glad that's not the case for me. I don't think I could afford the notes on a Maybach."

I think he is in the market for a midsize sedan. If he is looking for an ultra expensive car, desirability would still be his top priority.

kdshapiro

"Camry has actually taken sales away from the Avalon,"

But in doing so they also opened up the door for new customers. Using me as an example, in the past I wasn't interested in any Toyota, now I would think about the Camry.

So Toyotas strategy/formula hopefully is:

Increase in Camry sales from new customers - potential Avalon sales taken by Camry > 0.

lahiri

Well, I am trying to find which is more desirable in this class (so called "bread and butter" midsize sedans). I am probably rich enough to buy a wheel of Maybach, but just not rich enough to buy the car

Money matters - I don't look at the price, but I do look at the Edmund's "True Cost of Ownership". A car that retains its value better, offers better fuel economy, and is cheaper to insure due to good crash-test ratings lowers "True Cost of Ownerhip" and increases desirability at the same time. However, desirability is a little more than "True Cost of Ownerhip" - it also includes personal bias - a car that don't sell without long warranty or 0% APR is not desirable to me though it's very desirable to others.

kdshapiro

The only clear cut winner is the Camry on acceleration. Seems to me a variation of 6 feet is statistically meaningless. It's a given two different cars will have different braking most probably with different results. In addition, a Sonota loaded with people and passengers will stop way longer than an empty Accord, and vice-versa. So these numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt.

C&D also messages their numbers with a proprietary algorithm.

kdshapiro

"a car that don't sell without long warranty or 0% APR is not desirable to me"

Honda and Toyota have proven they don't have to sell you a car with a warranty longer than most mortgages. In general, average to above average reliability means the cars will have a long life.

Seems to me you are saying you are buying the car for the warranty and financing. I would never buy a car just for the warranty. 0% could make a deal, but not having 0% wouldn't kill the deal.

I want the car I want. Spending $20K+ on a car and saying it's a just business transaction is a load of hooey.

lahiri

I am saying the opposite. I don't like 0% APR or long warranties.