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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,543
    Overall the Sebring looks ok, but the back looks kinda like a Kia to me.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    sorry backy, didn't mean to suggest what you were saying was wrong...more of a response to louiswei, but your post was closer and I just clicked the reply button.

    food for thought...i've been hearing reports of 6s's (with the v-6, leather, bose, moonroof) going in the 19's. and the speed 6 going for about 23k (wish i would have waited :cry: ). i drove the i4 and it wasn't bad at all as long as you get the mtx. the normally aspirated mazda engines tend to require high rpms to get any oomph though, so the v-6 seemed better for me. although the duratec engine in the v-6 is a bit dated, the 6 is relatively light in the midsize class so with an mtx, it's still pretty quick to 60. and torque north of 3k is good and smooth...take it into some twisties and try not to smile - bet you can't ;)

    plus, if you get the hatchback like i did, you get great flexibility for hauling stuff while still looking like a sleek looking sedan. when i open up the hatch i still get responses from people of surprise and envy.

    the new 3.5 with around 265 hp and 260 lb/ft torque should hit the 6 in mid 07 (the 08 model) which has been reviewed favorably in edmonds on the lincoln MKS. just hope they don't make the 6 too big and heavy.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    stubby nose, strange lines on the side, strange crossfire hood and a yucky interior. there's no flow to the design at all. and why the huge wheel gap in the front and just a little in the back? disappointing. but does it have a hemi lol?

    can't wait to see what honda does with the new accord...saw what some were saying was the prototype at the tokyo auto show and it looked sweet.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    It's kinda growing on me...but the fact that I have a job interview with Chrysler coming up may have something to do with that ;)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I can't wait to see it as well. But if the new Civic an CR-V are the direction of the new Honda...I'm scared of what it will look like :(
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I like the interior. Not sold on the exterior yet.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I bought the 6, so road noise is not something that bothers me.

    The 2006 Mazda6 is much quieter than the 2005. What model year 6 do you have?
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I am tending toward the Mazda6, seems to be a screaming buy at less than $20K for the models I am looking at (hatchback,4 cylinder, needs the spoiler on the back to look sharp).

    And in looking at the pics for the new Sebring, I still think it has rental car written all over it. Not something that will win the hearts, minds, and wallets of buyers of Asian vehicles. But hey, the rental and fleet market is pretty huge, and if D-C can sell 200,000+ models to this market, they could be very happy. What's with the creases on the hood? Reminds me of the older Pontiacs (pre current Grand Prix) that always had the creases on the sides. Although it Daimler Chrysler could equip the Sebring with a clean burning yet economical diesel (and they REALLY know diesel engines for cars), they may have a winner after all
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I never said there was anything "wrong" Maybe not to financially smart, but not wrong. You Toyota owners are always screaming, resale, resale, resale. Yet, when you spend an extra $5,000 dollars over and above a like vehicle.. Heck yes!! you better have higher resale, you paid more to begin with. I will not just blindly buy just because of a name. Relaiblity is a non-factor anylong in this day and age. This guy was a bit sqeamish after a Mercury salesperson told him he could have bought a Milan with premium package for under 23K! Fact is Toyota has lost its value advantage. Toyota seems to be taking advantage of consumers. Now I see why thier profits are through the roof.. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Some cracks, Toyota can sell a Camry for $4750 more than a Fusion.

    Let me see if I got this straight, anyone willing to spend more money on a comparable sedan than your precious Fusion is being hoodwinked by "perceived" advantages. Okay, I got it. Thanks. "

    Yes, Toyota may be able to sell a Camry for $5,000 more than a Fusion. But for how long? With the internet and free speech forums like these. How long before the word starts to spread? Consumers are not dumb. People will start to read these and shop other car brands/makes to compare and ask themselves Is the $3-5,000 dollars really worth it for an Accord/Camry ;) ? Only a matter of time...
    By the way. I never have claimed to say my "precious" Fusion is perfect. It has its flaws, all cars do. What some are having a hard time with is the Fusion is a contendor in the segment, along with the Sonata, G6, Altima, 6, Legacy, Malibu, Impala, Aurora, Choice is nice.. :shades:
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Are you comparing the new Camry with aging Mazda6? That's not a fair comparison. You pay for more new models and that has nothing to do with buying a Toyota.

    Last month I bought a CR-V 2WD LX for just $19K ($400 below invoice price). The CR-V came standard with safety features like ABS, stability assist and curtain airbags. Also, I got CD, power locks-mirrors-windows. Similarly equipped Equinox would cost you a lot more (of course, Equinox comes with a V6 that produces 25 more horses than Honda's I4 - but performance is still the same since Equinox is heavier).

    The point is simple: if you buy an Accord or Mazda6 now, you can get a good deal (below invoice price deals). If you buy a Camry now, you will pay well over invoice. If you buy a Camry Hybrid, you may pay over MSRP.

    Otherwise, I don't think similarly equipped Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, Mazda6, Fusion, G6, etc. differ a lot from each other in price. Some manufacturers need longer warranties, bigger rebates and 0% APR to move inventory, some others don't. Some customers value rebates and low APR highly, but most go with Camry/ Accord because the difference in "True Cost to Own" more than compensates for lack of longer warranty, 0% APR or rebates.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Thanks for your thoughts on Legacy. According to you, it's more expensive than competition and the rear-seat isn't as big as some competitors'. Some of you suggested 4-speed tranny needs an upgrade. Ok... I will then stick to my shortlist of Altima/ Accord/ Mazda6 (and give Sonata an outside chance).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Toyota seems to be taking advantage of consumers

    LOL. Gee, you really don't like Toyota didn't ya?

    Just to find out what this Fusion fuss is all about I went to the local Ford dealer and test drove the Fusion V6 SEL. My verdict: I'll pay extra 5K for the Camry thank you very much. Although I think the Fusion is mile ahead of the old Taurus (which is not hard to beat), it is still an inferior product compare to the Camcords.

    Interior: I think the best part of this car is it's interior. Very elegent and refined, all the buttons are where it should be. Good quality and soft plastics all around. Although the passenger side glove compartment door is made of hard plastic but overall it's good. My only complain is the leather wrapped steering wheel. The leather is hard and feels fake unlike Sonata's near-Lexus-quality leather steering wheel. Front bucket seats could use better support as well.

    Exterior: Not head turning good but is among the lookers in this class. Don't like the euro style tail light but overall is decent.

    Driving dynamics: This is the area which will be the deal breaker for me. I have one word to describe it: terrible. First of all, the steering is very numb, don't have a precise feeling in it. My old 97' Accord feels more sportier than it. Second, the V6 engine is neither peppy nor smooth, lacks the "kick" in both low and high RPM. Before the test drive I think the Fusion should be fine with or without the new 3.5. Now I think that is a must. For those people who have never drive the new Camry a V6 Fusion might be fine but the reality is that the 3.0 is showing its age and it's time for it to rest.

    Overall the Fusion has exceeded my expection but still wouldn't cut it for me. Like I said, maybe the extra 5K is a hefty price to pay for some pepole but for me I would consider it money well spend. Although not the ideal family sedan for me, I would definitely love to have one as a rental next time if it's possible to find one on the lot.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You realize of course that if you really do pay $5000+ more for an Accord or Camry, due to incentives and price differences, and add the cost of an extended warranty to boot, not to mention extra financing costs and "opportunity cost" on the savings, that can blow the TCO advantage for Accord and Camry right out of the water.

    You may think that there is not a lot of difference in price between similarly-equipped Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, Mazda6, Fusion, G6 etc., but the reality is much different.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Driving dynamics: This is the area which will be the deal breaker for me. I have one word to describe it: terrible. First of all, the steering is very numb, don't have a precise feeling in it. My old 97' Accord feels more sportier than it.

    Wow...I have the about the exact opposite impression. I have not driven a '97 Accord, but the current model has very light steering. I think my '96 contour has "sportier" steering than accord. Fusion has pretty firm steering, which I would consider to be much "sportier" than Accord's and certainly not numb. If you like the lighter steering feel of the Accord, you might prefer the Milan to the Fusion.

    Where did you feel fusion seats needed extra support?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Don't forget to add on the extra dealer costs added on after the negotiated price. Around here there may be $1000 in fake options (packs) and dealer charges, document charges, dealer fee, etc. These seem greatest at the most popular brand foreign dealer, Toyo and Honda.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, for example if you pay $25,000 for the Camry and it loses 50% in 5 years, your depreciation is $12,500. If you buy an alternate car for $20,000 and it loses 66%, depreciation cost is $13,200. but then you can easily and safely invest the extra $5000 at about 5% and earn $12,500 over the 5 years...so net depreciation cost is $11,950.

    Not that I am one to get rid of a car after only 5 years...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Where did you feel fusion seats needed extra support?

    I felt I was on top of the seat (which I was I know) but I like the feeling of being wrap around by the seat.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I've seen and heard of many dealers trying to foist such charges on buyers--it's not just Toyota and Honda dealers. The newer and more rare the model, the more common this practice.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    for these midsize sedans. I took a little time to find the TMVs from Edmunds. All the prices listed below are for top of the line V6 comparably equipped w/o navi and satellite radio. The reference area is Atlanta, GA.

    2007 Camry: $28244
    2006 Accord: $24954
    2006 Fusion: $23903 with $1000 incentive included
    2006 Malibu: $24449
    2006 Impala: $25586 with $2000 incentive included
    2006 Altima: $25621 with $1750 incentive included
    2006 Sonata: $20665 with $2500 incentive included
    2007 G6 (NO panoramic roof and NO Onstar): $26695

    Difference between highest and lowest: $7579 (keep in mind that's with Hyundai's $2500 incentive)

    There is only 1000 dollars difference between Accord and Fusion and about 4000 dollars difference between Accord and Sonata. Based on my test driving experience with the Fusion (haven't test drive the Sonata so I won't comment) to pay 1K more and get the Accord seems like a no brainer to me.

    PS. The 06' Sonata looks like a real good bargain right now that's if you can still find one on the lot. Don't know if there are any incentives for the 07' Sonata.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The prices are inaccurate. The max price for a '06 Sonata LX, with all options, is about $25,000. Less the $2500 incentive and a reasonable discount for a closeout '06 model of say $2000 (larger discounts are being reported in Town Hall), the price should be closer to $20,500 instead of $23,165. Also $27k seems way too high for a G6 w/o moonroof and OnStar. Consider also that the Fusion has 0% financing for 6 years right now, which doesn't reflect in the TMV but saves big money if you finance the car.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    That's just voodo math. My Accord and Camry dealers wanted $6-7K more than I paid for my Sonata. There's no way I could recoup 6K. The car has a 10 year warranty, at which time I'll sell it privately. I bet I'll get 3K for it, which is a nice down payment on my next new car.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yes you are right on the Sonata pricing. Thank you for pointing that out for me. :) I have updated my original post with the correct TMV.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Good analysis, to add a step further using your example:

    Car A: $25,000.00 50% depreciation
    At the end of 5 years: $12,500.00

    Car B: $20,000.00 66% depreciation
    At the end of 5 years: $6,800.00

    Difference: 5,700.00

    You've already got the $5,000.00 upfront savings, which leaves about $700.00 to make up.

    5% compounding interests over 5 years will give you a total interest of $1,381.41

    So, in effect, you are ahead by $681.41, and that's only taking into consideration 5% interest - I have some sound investments earning quite a bit more :)
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Camry is new, most powerful and also probably the only car besides Fusion to have a 6 speed tranny. Still, the $3000 premium over Accord seems high to me (and low to those who would pay anything to get the latest).

    Camry's TMV won't remain as close to sticker as it's today (as the newness will no longer be there) - expect the TMV to go down by $1000 in a year and by nearly $2000 in 2 years. Further, Toyota will also start offering cash rebates (typically $750). So, after 2 years Camry would cost as much as the Accord costs today.

    If you want a Camry, don't settle for Accord. Just wait a year or two. At least, that's what I would do.

    And, I'm surprised that Sonata's pricing is really close to Accord's - this is a sign that Hyundai is catching up. I would still pay $2000 more (and sacrifice a few options to make up for the remaining $3000) and get an Accord.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And the horsepower war continues...now displaying in your family sedan aisle :)

    I would not be surprised in the near future a family sedan puts out more than 300 horses, if one hadn't existed already!!
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Horsepower is important to V6 shoppers. And, MPG rating is important to I4 shoppers.

    I'm in the middle. I try to test-drive I4 first. If I4 doesn't feel powerful (enough for highway passing at 65-80 MPH), I start looking at V6.

    At present, I really like Altima's I4 and next year I'll probably be settling for an Altima.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    There is only 1000 dollars difference between Accord and Fusion ... to pay 1K more and get the Accord seems like a no brainer to me.

    Not if you prefer the appearance of the Fusion (or Milan) to the Accord (and who doesn't :) ).

    In addition Ford has 6 year 0%. Assuming you can earn 5% on your money, this is worth about $3000. I think you have to give up the $1000 in exchange...so the effective price difference is then more like $2000.

    Or...If you would be financing the Accord at say 7% vs. the 0% on the Fusion, You save over $4000 in financing cost the fusion. This makes the net effective cost difference over $3000.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I wonder how this horsepower war is going to end, that's if it is going to end.

    5 years ago:
    Average V6 midsize sedan horsepower: around 190 HP
    Average entry lux sedan horsepower: around 220 HP

    Present:
    Average V6 midsize sedan horsepower: around 240 HP
    Average entry lux sedan horsepower: around 295 HP

    That means if this trend keeps going, in 5 years the midsize sedans' horsepower will be approaching 300 with entry lux sedans close to 400. :surprise: Now that's madness. Just not long ago (probably 2 years), the BMW M5 has only 400 HP.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Not if you prefer the appearance of the Fusion (or Milan) to the Accord (and who doesn't).

    True, I think one should get a car that he/she truly desired.

    As for the record, I don't prefer Fusion's appearance over Accord's.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Good. 5 years from now we'll just need a pair of wings (which will be dealer installed accessory then) to take off :P
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Quick update:
    I have now had the Altima for 4 months. No problems, no rattles, tight as a drum, excellent transmission and throttle response. It is still a blast to drive. So far Nissan quality control far and away beats the 2005 Avalon it replaced.
    Way to go Nissan, Toyota you are now getting the bad press you deserve.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Tell us about the MPG that you're getting. I'm thinking about I4 Altima. But I'll consider V6 if MPG isn't bad. I don't believe the EPA ratings.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have not driven a '97 Accord, but the current model has very light steering.

    The Accord that he's referencing (94-97) has much heavier/heftier steering than the new Accord. I'd know, as I have both models. I feel like the new Accord's is more precise, while the old Accord is much happier steering on the highway (it had torque-sensitive steering back then, too).
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    6 year loan on Fusion????????? You'll be upside down after 4 unless Ford stops Fleet sales!!!!!!!!!!
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    I do a lot of city driving. Trip computer says average fuel consumption is 17.1 mpg at an average speed of 20mph!
    Comparison: Avalon got 16 mpg and our Honda Pilot gets around 17 mpg.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Wow, 17.1 mpg is not that good even for city driving. For me I only drive in city and I got about 20 mpg. Not an Altima though but I also have 3.5 V6.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    The horsepower race could continue...but maybe not. Especially if fuel prices remain high (and who knows if they will). But historically, there was a big horsepower race in the late '60s- I remember one monster Pontiac had a 425 HP engine that was rated 0-60 in 3.9 seconds- and forget the gas mileage, maybe it was 10 mpg, but gas at 35 cents a gallon- who cared! But then the oil shocks of 1973 made those cars obsolete (and the emphasis on low pollution added to it) and the compact and midsize cars at the time came into dominating the market, which they still are. I still think that people want good power but they will temper it with much better mileage, be it with conventional, hybrid, or diesel vehicles. And the Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit are pretty hot sellers (even with gasoline prices dropping lately).

    PS. Yes, I still remember one monster stock engine with dual 4 barrel carburators. And some had "triple deuces"- 3 2 barrel carburators. Wow!
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    The Fusion can't even hang with an Accord, so your 'dollars' comparison is pure sophistry.

    Maybe in 5 years, if and when the Fusion has earned the kind of reputation the Accord has, we'll reconsider your post.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    I guess I could do better if I didn't use my right foot, but the Altima is such a rocket it is hard to resist dipping into that torque.
    What 3.5L do you have?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I have a pretty heavy right foot myself as well ;) . I have the 3.5 version IS.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Wow, I don't know how you get 20 mpg!!! My Avalon was heavy on gas so I can't complain about the Altima. I think we sometimes forget that a V6 that performs like a V8 almost uses gas like a V8. No free lunch.
    I know someone who has a new 4cyl Camry and he is barely getting 20 mpg with the anemic 4, so I don't feel too bad. He, on the other hand, is really upset. He thought he would be getting great fuel economy but the physics of a small engine working hard to pull a heavy body comes into play of course.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I guess the direct injection really helps on the mileage.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    How do you like the 3.5L? Is it quiet and smooth like the "old" Toyota and Lexus engines? My Avalon 3.5 sounded like a diesel and was rough in comparison with the old 3 liter.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Is is fairly quiet and smooth given that I am coming from a Honda Accord. However the engine will let you hear it once it's over 3500 RPM. It has one of those high-pitch sound like the European instead of the domestic rumbling sound. I feel like this 3.5 is more rev-happy than any previous Toyota/Lexus engines. Its characteristic constantly reminds me of Honda.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    6 year loan on Fusion????????? You'll be upside down after 4 unless Ford stops Fleet sales!!!!!!!!!!

    What has that got to do with a financial comparison? If Ford will give you 0% for 6 years you would be a fool not to take it. Therefore, you have to consider the 6 year financing in a comparison.

    If you are worried about this "upside down" stuff...just set aside some of the money you save on the lower monthy payment. For instance if your payment is $275, set aside an additional $275 per month in a money market and it will be as if you have a 3 year loan.

    BTW, I think some of your punctuation keys are sticking :P .
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    17.1 is a bit low for me. 20 is what I want to hear. Anyway, what's the highway MPG? Did you check that?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I got 32 mpg when I was dring around 55-75 mph with cruise control. 26 mpg at 85 mph and 24 at 95 mpg. Didn't check when I was at 130 mph so couldn't tell ya... :P
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The Fusion can't even hang with an Accord, so your 'dollars' comparison is pure sophistry.

    Maybe in 5 years, if and when the Fusion has earned the kind of reputation the Accord has, we'll reconsider your post.


    Well put. Ford might not even be around in 5 years as we know them now.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Highway mpg is great. Depends on how fast you go of course, but on a trip at about a steady 70mph I got close to 30mpg.
    One word of caution though. It runs on regular but it REALLY takes off on premium. These engines have really been designed for premium.
    May or may not be worth the few dollars more you'll pay per tank for premium.
This discussion has been closed.