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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    If I'm shopping based on price points, I'd get the following cars:

    $28,000: Camry V6 XLE, Fully loaded
    $24,000: Accord EX V6, Non-Navi
    $19,000: Sonata LX V6

    These are all great choices and we should be glad that we have such a range to choose from.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    I have not read any bad things about engine noise - it would appear that the Camry is the quitest of the lot. I wonder if that noise relates to some posters on the Avalon thread reporting noisy engines/problems-but that is just speculation.

    I have read several articles on fit and finish issues with the new Camry's interior, especially in the lower trim levels. Its cloth interior and dash look cheaper than the equivalent Accord in my opinion. However, its a big improvement over the previous version, which looked really cheap when I tested a 2004 Camry LE 4. (The lack of 5 speed at the time and cheap interior is why I bought a 2004 Accord). I think that this is may be a problem that people will experience when a new model is introduced and they compare it to the previous model across the board. It seems that the materials/fabric/seals/ are cheapened from the old or previous model to the current in order to cut costs by a manufacturer.

    I passed by the new Hyundai dealership, and they really don't have any vehicles on their main lot at least. The Azera did look pretty sharp though.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    In my opinion, the cloth interior of Camry LE, and especially the special fabric on the XLE 4, are superior to the cloth interiors on the Accords. Great, we each have our opinions.

    Which other reviews are you referencing that speak to negative fit and finish on the Camry interior? I have not read any others, though in its upcoming review, CR will ding the Camry interior grab handles- but not for fit and finish, instead, materials quality- and on that point I concur- the shape of the interior door handle is such that one can easily feel the moldline/flashing. Otherwise, the interior is attractive and well finished, IMO. One coworker commented on the "Snazzy" center stack lighting at nighttime (I begged and pleaded Avis at ORD to give me one of the few Camry SE 4s they had just received... I was the first renter of the car.. it had 6 miles on it, now has about 180)....

    "I passed by the new Hyundai dealership, and they really don't have any vehicles on their main lot at least." Im not sure I understand your point?

    ~alpha
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    You just answered your own question - the issue you cited is a "fit and finish issue" (quality of the grab handles being poor?)with the Camry interior (at least in the eyes of that reviewer in the article you cited). I also read a Detroit Free Press Article about the poor interior (in that reviewer's opinion) as well as in the dedicated Camry thread whereby several have noted issues with the interior. So, there are concerns and reviews by some professionals and non-professionals about the new Camry's interior. Just because you have not read those articles does not make it so, nor is this a widespread problem, and some of it could just be nitpicking, or a matter of personal preference, which is not a deficiency or a lack of quality issue.

    Unfortunately, you can not objectively compare an XLE to an LX Accord's interior - that's absurd and it is not a fair comparison. (I have always said that the upper level Camry's with leather interior- look much nicer than the Accord's leather interior and the V-6 is better than the Accord's V-6 - but this is just my opinion and I at least compared the equivalent models). But you are entitled to your own opinion as I am. I have owned/operated both vehicles in question unlike others (not you) -so I stand by my comments about the Camry LE's interior when comparing to my Accord LX's interior.

    Sorry for the last sentence, the new Hyundai dealership in my area had few cars on their main lot. They may have had vehicles in a storage lot away from their main lot. The Azera does look quite nice, but too big for my needs.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    With respect to CR, I was referencing a materials choice by Toyota... and I agree with CR on that criticism. However, this does not affect the way the materials fit together.

    The Detroit Free Press knocked a Toyota? Honestly, this is the other article you're citing? Thats like saying the Pepsi Times doesn't like Diet Coke with Lime.... its kind of expected.

    The only time I mentioned the Camry XLE (4), I did not specifically put it against the Accord LX. However, since the LX and EX use the same cloth interior, I don't see how that would be invalid.

    ~alpha
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    Fit and finish is included under that element. You and CR have issues with the finish of the materials used by Toyota. Thanks, I will take a look at that issue when I re-test the Camry.

    Thanks for clariying your post on what models you were/were not comparing. But you are wrong, the LX and EX Accords use different cloth seat fabric as detailed in the 2006 Accord brochure and the dedicated honda website. Specifically, the seat fabrics are the same on the VP, LX, and LX V-6 lines. However, on the EX trim levels, the cloth seat fabrics are "upgraded" and they are not the same. Thus, your statement that the seats on the LX and EX models are the same is not correct.
  • aburdaburd Posts: 23
    The car.com Camry review's Quality section has a somewhat shocking blow-by-blow summary of fit and finish issues of their '07 XLE (presented from three different author's viewpoints, but similar in tone). Choice of materials also came under fire, mainly considering the price point of the car they tested.

    It seems likely to me that these are representative only of that sample, but it makes for a sobering read.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    "Maybe it's not that Hyundai is giving its cars away, instead maybe Honda is charging to much?

    Good point!! ;)

    As consumers start to realize they don't have to pay, pay and pay for a quality built, reliable vehicle some may stop and think about this... :surprise: Did I pay too much!?? for my Honda/Toyota?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I stand corrected on the 2006, however, I will further clarify. My former sig other's 2005 Accord EX 4 cylinder coupe 5M built at the Marysville plant has, in my opinion, seat cloth that is Inferior to that of the 2007 Camry LE's, or the Fraichair treated XLE's.

    Thank you for the correction.
    ~alpha
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I think that is a true statement. The main problem the Sonata faces now is public perception

    Exactly. And when Hyundai's offerings can be thought of in the general public's eye as comparable to the Honda Accord, Hyundai will be in for a windfall, either by being able to charge more or by selling at lot more cars.

    The best laid plans can be derailed in today's cutthroat economy. Who knows how well the 08 Accord will debut and if the 06 Sonata will hold up through the next few years.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    No problemo, the same difference in the seat fabric actually has been since the new model. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but there are differing opinions on this thread and the dedicated Camry thread. Its not just the seats though, its the quality of the plastics, seat comfort, the layout of the dash, knobs, switches, etc. which make the Camry LE inferior to an Accord LX in my opinion.

    I would also go into comparing the 4 cylinder and tranny of the Accord to the Camry, but why start another discussion. As a note, the style on the Camry, I've begun to like more and more. (I may be picking up an LE one of these days in the near future).
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    "The Sonata wishes it could hang in the reliability air that Accord enjoys. If it could, Hyundai wouldn't have to use the giveaway pricing it needs to sell the car in decent numbers."

    nothing personal but please do resort to some economics and marketing texts.

    Why is hyundai doing this?? 2 obvious reasons 1) meet and exceed sale goals(corporation business objectives) 2) The sonata is hyundais most important and sacrifice car right now. It does not need this car in terms for profits in a way it needs it more to expose hyundais face to the public to redeem itself again(that is by having it in the streets, owners telling 5 of their other friends). With 4 or 5 new cars coming in the upcoming years(elantra, santa fe, equus, entourage, tiburon) no wonder they need more exposure(and they have hit the button like no tomorrow.) to sale these solidly built cars and get closer to being top 5 selling automobile company in the world

    Hyundai has hit a huge clutch home run with this car, its being proven over and over again(doubters can doubt all they want) , congrats on the third coming on the jd power initial quality behind cars it has no business hanging with(lexus, porche luxury cars)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Profits are made on the Sonata; a healthy cut, believe it or not. Hyundai financials indicated HMMA, where the US-spec Sonata is built, has enjoyed a good first year of operation.

    As for fleet units, estimated at 30% - even excluding fleet sales, the Sonata will still meet target, given its current retail figures (total units per month times (1-0.3) - 30% estimated). Of course, we should note sales are counted as combined, and not separated. Given its current sale, 200K units this year is well within reach - which would be a great feat, compared to the sales of the last gen Sonata. The increased fleet unit percentage, or so I read, is due to the fact Hyundai wanted as many "butts" as possible in the Sonata - which is a good way to improve public perception.
  • master1master1 Posts: 340
    More Hyundai Sonata's will be sold. [like you said] The Hyundai Sonata's are gaining customers because they are starting to recieve better reviews, and quality ratings. Although, I personlly do not recommend Hyundai Sonata's, many more are starting to buy them. In addition to the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, now the Hyundai Sonata is in the main competition.

    In my opinion, a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is a better car.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    From post # 3952 I was a bit surprised to see that Honda trails Hyundai in global sales by about 350,000 units and also trails Nissan by about 230,000 units.

    In their homeland market of Japan, Nissan leads Honda in sales also.

    Honda's marketing must be very effective in the USA to do so much better here.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Profits are made on the Sonata; a healthy cut, believe it or not.

    So you're some kind of insider that can somehow discern real profits from financial statements that don't have the reliabilty that US companies must (appear to) have? (SEC registered, GAAP bound, Sarbanes-Oaxley mandated etc.)

    Hyundai builds a better vehicle but their financials are what they want them to say and likely based on what the SK government wants them to say.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Is the Camry or Accord i4 better than a Sonata V6 car? Just wondering why you think that, and in which ways they are better. And let me add, what is really that much better between Japan makes and the Sonat i4 base cars???
    -Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Honda has a reputation for building cars that hold up for the long haul (Accords and Civics). Hyundai has a reputation for what? What little reputation they do have, is not good. When I buy a car, I keep it for at least 10 years and well over 100,000 miles. Hyundai has no cars on the road that are 10 years old. Therefore Sonata's long term reliability is only a guess, and wishful thinking IMO.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    real profits from financial statements that don't have the reliabilty that US companies must (appear to) have? (SEC registered, GAAP bound, Sarbanes-Oaxley mandated etc.)

    Like Enron? and to a lesser degree, how many other companies that had to re-state their earnings?

    So much GAAP for large corporations, non-profits and governments (at various levels in the USA) defies the logic of normal people (how much did I earn and how much did I spend +/- plus any new debt obligations). If you own a (very) small incorporated business you can influence whether or not the business makes a profit--although money taken from the business will be taxable income to the principals--without the need for accounting expertise. Imagine what large corporations, including all the major auto companies, can do under accountng rules to affect their bottom line.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    Hyundai has no cars on the road that are 10 years old.

    Absolutely untrue. That kind of blatantly false statement only serves to reduce your credibility. If you want to ignore Hyundai's progress over the past decade, go right ahead. But your ignorance of that progress doesn't make it disappear.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This is just too exagerated IMO. Even if the plant was absolutely labor free it wouldn't save $5000. They still have to pay for steel, rubber, glass, robots, welding wire, lights, power, gas, etc. There is no way to save that much money when all these cost the same for everyone.

    If labor was zero they might save $1000-1500 per vehicle. The rest of the $5000 is just commercial incentive to buy part of the market.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Fact is, Honda has a proven track record (decades of making quality cars). Hyundai has proven nothing. The 06 Sonatas could be total junk in 10 years. None of you can tell me how it will stand the test of time. Get back to me in 10 years. Initial Quality (J D Power) doesn't mean squat.
  • thesniperthesniper Posts: 44
    "Really? I think thats a big leap of faith assumption. $24,995 LXs leaving the Hyundai doors under $19K? The sales volume from Jan 06 through end of Mar 06 at 30% fleet (discounted) sales, and who knows where it stands for Q2? No doubt, there's some profit... but handsome?"

    There is profit... they even use portion of it to bribe the SK government.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    elroy5 thats the one thing hondayota owners can say to bash this car and thats about it.

    It has beaten hondayota 3 years now in jd power initial quality. thats already three years better quality

    u want 10? i have no doubt hyundai with the way they are making cars will be top 5 for jd quality for years to come

    What makes you think they would make a shaky car? why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Unlike their old ponys and excel, this is not the same car. The sonata was researched to death before made, using state of the art auto plant, refences from top quality cars(audi a6 lexus 330). Why the negativity. i dun get the hatred
  • thesniperthesniper Posts: 44
    "Why the negativity. i dun get the hatred"

    Look in the mirror... isn't it that you have same hatred for the other brands?
  • thesniperthesniper Posts: 44
    "This is just too exagerated IMO. Even if the plant was absolutely labor free it wouldn't save $5000. They still have to pay for steel, rubber, glass, robots, welding wire, lights, power, gas, etc. There is no way to save that much money when all these cost the same for everyone.

    If labor was zero they might save $1000-1500 per vehicle. The rest of the $5000 is just commercial incentive to buy part of the market."

    They're making money, KD. Actually, this is where the profits go for the following:

    Toyota - new models
    Honda - R&D
    GM - no profit
    Hyundai - bribery
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    It has beaten hondayota 3 years now in jd power initial quality. thats already three years better quality

    Total lie. In all the comparison test in 03 the 7th generation Accord creamed the competition. You will say anything to convince yourself how good the Sonata is. Despite what you say, the proof will only come in time. J. D. Power is a big joke. It's the award for companies who can't win a REAL AWARD.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    J. D. Power is a big joke. It's the award for companies who can't win a REAL AWARD

    --end quote--

    OK, explain what you just said. Pray tell, what is a real award to you? I too have no way of knowing how Sonata compares to an Accord, Camry, Ford Five Hundred, LaCrosse, or whatever in four to eight years of service. The Sonata and Azera are totally new cars. Sonata is a new factory. They are using new engines. All there is to go by is current data. That data is encouraging. Hyundai is now third in rank for number of problems per car. They had a dicey past, and are willing to offer the longest of warranties. Not sure what more they can do.

    You are a Honda fan I take it. Very good point on reliability of those cars. History would indicate it is safe bet to last a long time. It very well could be that the more expensive Accord is the better of the two choices for those considering the Sonata. Will it be is only a guess. Maybe some people like the V6 for the price of a four banger? It seems like a good overall value package. I like the interior quality of the Accord, a great history (not sure about the automatic tranny) good seats, and overall fit and finish of the Honda. Why not try them both. See how the price compares, the ride, consider resale value, engine smoothness, and you know the whole deal, then decide if it is worth venturing into something new. Spend some time at the dealerships to see what they feel like to you. I admire what Hyundai did to turn the ship around. Equally, I admire the Honda company for excellence in engine building, and innovation on so many products over the years. Had a couple of their motorcycles. Great race car engines, to lawnmower engines. They are even building robots. Would be proud to own a Honda. This doesn't mean buying a Hyundai is not a reasonable thing to do. Sure, you are venturing in to the unknown as you would any significantly new automobile. Risk/reward is buying at a less cost in, and reward is if it all works out over the years.
    If you buy and sell often, or are uncertain you will keep the Hyundai, I would be a bit leery of resale values in the three to five year range. If you believe all Korean cars to be junk, by all means never buy a car with that attitude. You will spend day and night trying your best to find something wrong. I too like Honda, but see no reason to be so down on Hyundai, or JD Power.
    -Loren
  • those of you who doesn't believe in hyundai's reliability:
    you have 5 years left to hate hyundai.

    if hyundai still gathers awards after awards, good reviews after good reviews in year 2011, then stop all the doubting because ya'll run out of excuses.

    5 years folks, then it's the expiration date.

    hyundai will have full lineups of great cars with a great value(including hybrids and pickup trucks) with a PROVEN TRACK RECORD. of course, i'm not a psychic, but i know for a fact that companies like hyundai won't gamble; they will take toyota's routes.

    if people still hating on hyundai, they must owned an Excel before. they probably watched glengary glenn ross 20 times.

    by the way, i'm not a homer. i'm an acura owner who owned bmw 325i and an 03 accord coupe.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yea!!!

    We finally agree. The Sonata is a fine vehicle and good competitor. Hyundai is using it to buy it's place in the American market a la HonYota in the early 90's. Break even or a small loss to establish it's reputation is not a bad policy if it can secure 200,000 units of profitable production on an ongoing basis in years to come.

    IMO the pricing is artificial but still smart for the time being.

    Question: Now that Hyundai has begun to prove it's quality at least initially would you pay $24,000 for a V6 LX? This is the same 'air' as the CamCords.
This discussion has been closed.