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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well put. Ford might not even be around in 5 years as we know them now.

    For Ford's sake, I'd hope not! I think Bill Ford is counting on that in fact.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    None above get good mileage. It's time for a big change!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I agree with you, however, afordibility, good mileage and high performance just don't go together.
  • jsc8116jsc8116 Member Posts: 3
    I am trying to decide between the Accord or Mazda6, I know the 6cyl in the 6 is a Ford engine, but is the 4 cyl also a Ford motor?
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    No, I don't hate Toyota. Why should I? This review should surprise me how? Since you went into the dealer with a chip on your shoulder already against the Fusion.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Yes, there is a price difference. In the paper a Dealer is offering Accord EX V6 automatics for $25,888. This is an advertised "SALES" price... :surprise: Yet, Accords are supposed to cost as much as Sonata's, Fusions, ect.. right..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    $1K difference between Fusion and Accord!!! No-way, JOSE!@ This is a pipe dream. In my region you will easliy pay $2-2.5K more for a like optioned Accord.. ;)
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    The Fusion can't even hang with an Accord, so your 'dollars' comparison is pure sophistry.

    Maybe in 5 years, if and when the Fusion has earned the kind of reputation the Accord has, we'll reconsider your post.


    Well put. Ford might not even be around in 5 years as we know them now.

    Something's gotta happen over there. Maybe spin off cars from trucks, dump the luxury line, sell Mazda, merge with a Euro player....whatever...but pretty soon it'll be.....

    Paddles! Clear!

    ....if they continue with Bill Ford's 'vision'.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Wow - that's all it'll cost you to keep from having to settle for a Ford?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I cannot agree more about the HP wars in family sedans. When will it end? Will we be seeing 300 - 500 HP family sedans in the future? Why? Because of bragging rights, pure and simple. The media sure doesn't help much either. Car A has 235HP, Car B has 245 HP.. Gee.. lets hype up Car B..Lets race family sedans..
    Myself, I want more content rather than HP/Torque. Give me standard stability control, rear back-up sensors/alarms/cameras, more safety features anyday..
  • jsc8116jsc8116 Member Posts: 3
    ANYONE? :confuse:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The Fusion can't even hang with an Accord, so your 'dollars' comparison is pure sophistry.

    Maybe in 5 years, if and when the Fusion has earned the kind of reputation the Accord has, we'll reconsider your post.

    NEWS FLASH! The Fusion does "hang" with the Accord. The sooner you realize this the easier it will be on you.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I am trying to decide between the Accord or Mazda6, I know the 6cyl in the 6 is a Ford engine, but is the 4 cyl also a Ford motor? "

    The 3.0 Duratec is a Ford engine. This engine has a proven track record and is very reliable. It has been around for about 10 years now. I don't know if the 3.0 in the Mazda 6 is also VVT like the 3.0 in the Fusion/Milan. The 2.3 is developed by Mazda and is a very good 4cyl engine. Some say the 2.3 is "unrefined" when comparing to the 2.4 in the Accord. I recently took a drive in a friends 06 Accord LX 4cyl automatic, he punched the car and wow! There was sure a lot of racket coming from under that hood. Some call it "refined racket I guess".. ;)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The Fusion can't even hang with an Accord, so your 'dollars' comparison is pure sophistry.

    Maybe in 5 years, if and when the Fusion has earned the kind of reputation the Accord has, we'll reconsider your post.

    Well put. Ford might not even be around in 5 years as we know them now.


    You guys are just silly. If you are so biased, why bother spending time on on this comparison board? The only decision you have to make is probably Camry or Accord. :P

    What is Accord's reputation worth to you? Since $3000+ is not enough, would a $5000 cost difference matter, $10,000?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Wow - that's all it'll cost you to keep from having to settle for a Ford? "

    Nope, didn't "settle" I chose. And I know my choice was the right one everytime I get into my Ford product. I know I didn't follow any lemmings... :shades:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    $1K difference between Fusion and Accord!!! No-way, JOSE!

    Well, go to Edmunds' TMV webpage and put in YOUR zip code and see what the true market value for Accord and Fusion in your region. If 1K is also the case in your region then print it out and take it to your Honda dealer and see what they say.
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "One word of caution though. It runs on regular but it REALLY takes off on premium."

    If it's like my Camry 3.3 liter, you will get better mileage with premium which will offset the extra cost.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    NEWS FLASH! The Fusion does "hang" with the Accord.

    Nope, not really. For you maybe but definitely not for me.

    Although the test drive proves that the Fusion is miles ahead of the prehistorical Taurus it is still AT LEAST half generation behind Accord and one generation behind Camry at the engine category. However, I've gotta say that the Fusion does "hang" with the Camcords as far as the interior goes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Nope, didn't "settle" I chose. And I know my choice was the right one everytime I get into my Ford product. I know I didn't follow any lemmings...

    BTW, how's your experience while shopping for your Fusion? Did you test drive any other cars in the class? Like Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima and Mazda6? If you did, how do you like and dislike them?
  • scsilvscsilv Member Posts: 3
    I see plenty of Fusions driving to work in Dearborn, MI. They look OK, but not a lot different from an Accord, or a Camry, or a Sonata. No surprise--all these cars have one eye on the competition.

    At these prices, I'd consider the Fusion. Too bad they're late to the gate with hybrids in this model. Quite simply, they are not a leader in this segment. And again, after essentially giving away a Taurus stationwagon at only 65,000 miles, after multiple repairs, I vowed to never purchase a Ford again.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    Yes, it would definitely be the priciest, but it would also be the best made, the only AWD option, and the fastest. Which by that I mean the Volkswagen Passat 3.6 4Motion.

    The Germans make the cars the most solidly. That's a given, I'm sure. And AWD is definitely the key, not withstanding being close to the same as Audi's Quattro, which may be the most amazing AWD I've ever encountered. And who wouldn't want 280 hp? I would.

    Is $30,000 and 27 mpg highway too much? Then try the Accord, definitely. But reconsider what value is all about, because I see no other true option but the Passat with AWD.

    Other thoughts are the Honda Accord, the Toyota Camry, the Mazda6, the Ford Fusion, and the Hyundai Sonata, in order of overall satisfaction.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, it would definitely be the priciest, but it would also be the best made, the only AWD option, and the fastest. Which by that I mean the Volkswagen Passat 3.6 4Motion.

    I only have a minor bone or two to pick with that...

    As far as the only model with AWD, how about the Subaru Legacy? well under 6 seconds to 60 MPH also. Smaller interior, yes, but it is another alternative with AWD.

    Also, you mention that the car is solid, and I'll give you that. The VWs feel hewn from granite. Too bad that granite is all too likely to sit in the repair shop these days, as VWs reliability has been about as good as GMs stock trends over the last few years.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    Isn't the Passat 3.6 4Motion more of a competitor for near luxury cars? A plane Jane Passat 2.0 can more than hold its own against the other cars you mentioned.

    Yes, VWs are very well made cars that drive with impressive solidity. You know, German. But like other German cars, they tend to be a bit unreliable. It would be nice if the newest editions of the Passat and Jettas turn out to be reliable.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Doesn't the MazdaSpeed6 have AWD also--and is pretty darn quick? The 2007 Fusion will offer AWD also.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I started to write that about the Fusion, but I went to the Ford site and couldnt find it, so I didn't. I thought that was the case though! Thanks for the correction, or info-addition, whatever the case may be. The Mazdaspeed 6 DOES have AWD also, and is faster than a Passat (5.4 sec to 60MPH i think).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think AWD on the Fusion is "late availability".
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    OK, the MazdaSpeed6 is a good thing, definitely. And the same with the Subaru Legacy. But I just get more personal satisfaction buying German. They are, overall, better made cars, I'm convinced.
    I wasn't saying you need a super speed demon, I'm saying there should be some sort of boundary. The Passat combines near-Audi luxury, near-Audi, if not all Audi AWD, and German build.
    I'm not denying I like the Mazdaspeed. If it were up to me, I'd pick German, though.
    As on reliability, I haven't had a German car that was ever any real bit unreliable, and a few Mazdas that have been.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    The chief-engineer behind Ford's Escape hybrid has quit Ford. Bill Ford has been unable to find her replacement. So, he has decided to drop the plan to produce 250,000 hybrids a year. Now the plan is to produce vehicles that can run on ethanol (flex-fuel).
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    No, no Fusion.
    Not that there aren't pluses. With Ford down, so are prices. But let's be realistic. There are few things that aren't quite.....average. And there are some things that are not desirable, like American building.
    It's good, but it's bad. It's great, but it's terrible. What isn't just average about it?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If VW was actually as reliable as the average Honda/Toyota of late, their dealer network has a reputation of being snobby/arrogant/and don't treat customers like people that spent $30k on THEIR product. While I realize that's not the case EVERYWHERE, it certainly seems worse than, say the rep of Ford dealers.

    Plus, to quote Family Feud, "Survey Says" VW reliability is poor relative to the other makes.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Driving dynamics: This is the area which will be the deal breaker for me. I have one word to describe it: terrible. First of all, the steering is very numb, don't have a precise feeling in it. My old 97' Accord feels more sportier than it.

    Sometimes when evaluating things you must ask yourself the question "is it just me?" and "Is my impression contrary to all popular knowledge?". Some people will say it is cold in the Carribean! You never know until you ask the question. Some people think they can drive in the snow, until they slide into a guard rail.

    In this case your opinion goes against all and every magazine review and about 98% of all consumer reviews (many of which have been posted on this board). The Edmunds comparo with the Fusion listed it as the "driver's car" among the group and put steering above the Accord. Also remember that the Fusion is based on the Mazda6. This car benchmarked BMW for handling and has won numerous praise as the best handling midsive car short of a 3-Series. In fact, another Mazda6 based vehicle, the CX-7, just took home first place in a three way comparo here at Edmunds and that review too mentioned the Mazda's handling. In Fact on this board people have described the Mazda's handling as precognative and having a psychic ability to know exactly where you want to put the car. The Fusion isn't that far off. I won a Mazda6, without shame or event a moment of thinking "maybe I should have got an Camcord". Matter of fact driving the Mazda for the last two trouble free years has made me even more pleased that I made a great decision. With that, I am going to go drive the Mazda at... agressive speeds through the curvy roads on my way to the laundromat. Good night.
  • satire2satire2 Member Posts: 22
    I agree with your message.

    We had a previous generation Camry SE V6, and a current gen Honda Accord V6, and shifted to two Subaru Legacys mainly because of the numb steering of the boat-like Camcord twins. (The Accord is better, but not by much.) From what you say, and from what 99.9% of all road testers say, I'd have to agree that the Mazda6, and, by extension, the Ford Fusion, are even better than the Subarus in the steering feel/handling department. So I can't see how anyone can say that the Fusion has poor steering feel. That's the least of Bill Ford's problems! :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So, driverdm and satire2, have you drive both the Mazda6 and Fusion before? I have. For ME, Fusion can't hang with Mazda6 on driving dynamics, period. Mazda6 has a very nimble steering feel, pointed to where you are going with precision. On the other hand, the Fusion's steering is very numb, doesn't connect the driver to the car like the Mazda does.

    Also, I stated that in my review the engine and driving dynamics would be the deal break for ME. That's why everyone should test drive the car they want to buy before jumping on the media bandwagon. The perfect car for ME and the media is probably not the one for you. It is very frustrating to see many people acting like they know the car inside and out but at the end all they know is what the media have told them. I look at all the car mags and reviews as good references but ultimately my own experience reigns supreme (for me).

    PS. Saying that Mazdas6's handling is next best to 3-series is an overstatement. Can't argue that it is the best handling midsize sedan but comparing to 3er? I can name at least 2 other cars in between.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    after multiple repairs, I vowed to never purchase a Ford again.

    Me too. Why go down that road again when there are SO MANY better alternatives? Spare yourself the grief.

    So after owning 2 Fords and being disappointed in both, my bias toward Honda is based on real experiences. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....never will be a third.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    So, in effect, you are ahead by $681.41, and that's only taking into consideration 5% interest - I have some sound investments earning quite a bit more

    Let that forever put to rest the myth that the legendary Camry/Accord resale value pays you back. It simply doesn't.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Wow! Good to know about your Mazda6. If Mazda6 becomes slightly roomier and gets the new 3.5 V6, it will certainly increase its appeal. I will test drive the new models (Altima, Mazda6, Accord) before I decide. I'm also hearing good things about Camry Hybrid, Saturn Aura's new V6, Sonata's improved quality - so, I'm at best confused.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    If VW was actually as reliable as the average Honda/Toyota of late, their dealer network has a reputation of being snobby/arrogant/and don't treat customers like people that spent $30k on THEIR product. While I realize that's not the case EVERYWHERE, it certainly seems worse than, say the rep of Ford dealers.

    Plus, to quote Family Feud, "Survey Says" VW reliability is poor relative to the other makes.


    Yes and no. Yes, German dealerships are terrible, but so are all car salesmen, and in the end people should learn how badly you get ripped off by those people. And no, quoting Family Feud is not the answer.....but whatever.

    VWs are as reliable as pencils, and not surprisingly, so are Audis. That's certainly the case wherever I've been, and I'm sorry if you've experienced different, but who's to mark me if they really haven't? And Honda and Toyota, although quite reliable, just aren't as well-made by any means, and I'm signed on that.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    The Fusion, as I drove it a few weeks ago, was awkwardly normal by every standard....it just didn't stick out in my tests. Plus, if I had owned it, it probably would have broken down in two months, had less-than-average fuel economy, and used its headlights to scare me to the brinks. That's another thing: it's not that good-looking either.
    Overall, I wouldn't consider it.....The Mazdaspeed6, however......

    The Mazdaspeed6 is quite a jewel. Few Japanese cars these days break 270 hp for some reason, and as I drove it a few weeks ago I couldn't help but see that it was very fast. But in between the speed, there's luxury, and I wasn't totally impressed by that. This is where the Passat is key, with near-Audi interior.

    Don't get me wrong, the Passat is pricier than the Mazdaspeed, but I'm sure it's worth it.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    VWs are as reliable as pencils, and not surprisingly, so are Audis. That's certainly the case wherever I've been, and I'm sorry if you've experienced different, but who's to mark me if they really haven't?

    Just about EVERY CR and JD Power report published within the past five years, that's who. They all list VW/Audi among the lowest in reliability scores.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Almost every European origined car (and the Jetta is made in Mexico for the U.S. market and M-B and BMWs are made here now) have high maintenance incident rates and high cost of repairs. Goes with the territory (and I have a Volvo that is indicative of that and plenty of electrical and other issues). But what you get in return is supurb engineering inside and out and often long lasting and wonderful engines. The seats, the controls, the road feel- the whole experience is awesome, even on the VW Golf/Rabbit. And the Asians emulate it but still can't quite get it right. So many of my friends have Audis, BMWs, Mercedes- and admit the maintenance issues, but say it is worth it anyway. And the excellent safety features of the European cars are there also. Maybe with some exceptions, but for the most part, they lead the way.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The think that bugs me the most is I am finally at a point where I can almost afford a Passat/Jetta and now I don't care for the styling. The A4 is priced out of reach, and the A3 doesn't have AWD. I don't think the Passat AWD is available with a manual transmission anymore so that is a deal killer right there.
    That MazdaSpeed6 is looking better every day, although the 93 octane fuel requirement might hurt a little bit.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    I have no plans to buy stick. I will only buy automatic. I have driven stick, but I prefer automatic (I feel nervous driving stick in crowded streets). So, I'm not going for Mazdaspeed.

    I'm targeting cars in $20,000 - $25,000 price range. And, that makes Passat almost impossible. Still, I'll check the Passat.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Me too. Why go down that road again when there are SO MANY better alternatives? Spare yourself the grief.

    So after owning 2 Fords and being disappointed in both, my bias toward Honda is based on real experiences. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....never will be a third"

    I guess the same can go for me for Honda.. I paid too much for a perceived quality/reliability/resale advantage.. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... never a second.. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The Fusion, as I drove it a few weeks ago, was awkwardly normal by every standard.... it just didn't stick out in my tests. Plus, if I had owned it, it probably would have broken down in two months, had less-than-average fuel economy, and used its headlights to scare me to the brinks. That's another thing: it's not that good-looking either."

    Normal?? it will easily match your Passat in the twisties. The Fusion/Milan are known for its standout styling. Broken down after two months?? What? Do you get out and read other forums/chats around the net?? The Fusion/Milan are proving to be quiet reliable and well built vehicles. I average 27.4 MPG in my v6 Fusion.. Everything you say goes against the grain of what reviewers/owners say about the quality/fit/finish of the Fusion/Milan.

    I see you prefer German vehicles. I don't have to remind you that VW reliability is LOWER than Ford. I don't have to remind you that the Jetta and Passat don't have that great of a track record for reliability. Also, the cost of maintaining both Jetta and Passat are very spendy. They require synthetic oil at every change.. OUCH!

    I like the looks of the Passat but at $30,000+ there are many other sedans I would choose over it. In fact I almost chose a Jetta over my Fusion. I am so glad I didn't now.. :shades:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Every car maker has its own share of pros and cons. IMO, generally speaking:

    Asian: Average driving dynamics/Good reliability
    Domestic: Below average driving dynamics/Average reliability
    European: Good driving dynamics/Below average reliability

    So, pick your poison...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So scape2, you still haven't tell us how's your experience while test driving say...Passat (which you have just bashed), Accord, Camry, Altima and Sonata. I am eager to find out your opinion regarding those cars and how does your Fusion comes up on top FOR YOU.

    That's given that you have drived those cars before, and you have right?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The Fusion/Milan are proving to be quite reliable and well built vehicles.

    That seems to be true for the new Jetta, as well. It has been out for two years now and I have not read of a lot of problems. Just imagine if both the new Fusion/Milan and Jetta prove to be more reliable than the new Camry :surprise: .
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually when Toyota puts the 3.5L in the Sienna and Highlander soon it will have the same V6 engine in every auto, truck and SUV in both the Lexus and Toyota lines.

    The 3.5L in the Avalon, RAV, Camry, ES, RX is a derivation of the 4.0L in the 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra and FJ. By doing this Toyota sent more than $1 Billion to the bottom line last year, and this year, and next year, and.........

    automobile.com article about Bodine/Toyota 3.5L engines
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I owned 3 new VW's and a new Audi. They were not reliable at all. (Yes, I used to be brand loyal and a slow learner)
This discussion has been closed.