Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

venus537

"You can keep your German engineering; all I can see is that it tends to mean high maintenance costs and low (as a general statement) reliability"

High maintenance and low reliability is a fair statement. And if that's all you can see in a German car then there's no point giving them a second look. Thanks for letting me keep my German car though.

I have owned 7 Hondas including 5 Accords so it's not like I don't have a frame of reference.

venus537

Congrats on your new Accord. Hope you have many miles of driving enjoyment.

backy

A recent "Sonata boom" in my area? Not really. I saw a lot of the '99-'05 generation Sonatas around my town also. We have five Hyundai dealers already, and they have been around awhile. But my area is much larger--over 2.5 million in the metro area.

Do yourself a favor and drive ALL the mid-sized cars that, on paper at least, could meet your needs. Then when you plop down your $20k or whatever, you will know you made the right decision.

thegraduate

High maintenance and low reliability is a fair statement. And if that's all you can see in a German car then there's no point giving them a second look. Thanks for letting me keep my German car though.

I have owned 7 Hondas including 5 Accords so it's not like I don't have a frame of reference.

I wasn't doubting you per se, just mentioning why "german" engineering doesn't impress me with "Quality" although the driving experience is very, very good in the only German cars I've driven, Audis.

My parents and I are on our 16th Honda combined, so I'm quite familiar with Honda myself! (That includes 9 Accords, 5 Civics, a CR-V, and an Odyssey). We strayed from Honda twice (both times for Chrysler convertibles) and were bitten badly by the reliability bug, or lack thereof.

cxc

In addition to Accord, Camry, and Sonata, now GM cars should be on the shopping list. Rick Wagoner offers a 5 years/100,000 miles warranty for all 2007 GM cars and trucks. Competition is good!

jaxs1

5 year powertrain warranty for GM.
They promised it would be a class-leading warranty before they gave the details later.
I was really disappointed when the announcement came and it was powertrain only.
I had hoped the would have increased the basic warranty to at least 4 years.

backy

Well, it's a start. It's better than just about everybody else in this class except Hyundai, Mitsubishi, and Suzuki. Unfortunately, a adding a couple of years to the powertrain warranty won't be enough in itself to get me to consider GM's cars. I don't hear horror stories about engines failing in GM's mid-sized cars after 3 years, so the longer warranty is nice but not sufficient. The cars have to be competitive. I am encouraged by what I've seen of the Aura, and the next Malibu looks (literally) like an improvement.

elroy5

In addition to Accord, Camry, and Sonata, now GM cars should be on the shopping list. Rick Wagoner offers a 5 years/100,000 miles warranty for all 2007 GM cars and trucks. Competition is good!

GM would have to offer a 7 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty, to sell their inferior cars. Then I might actually test drive one.

jaxs1

If it was 5 years and even 75K miles (15K mile per year) bumper to bumper that would have been attractive to many people who would know they wouldn't have to spend any money on repairs during the course of a 5 year loan and would not need to spend more money on an extended warranty either.
Probably would have cost GM much less in warranty claims than the amount of incentives they have to put on the cars to sell them as is anyway.
Maybe as a 2007 sales incentive, they could give free warranty upgrades from the powertrain-only to a bumper to bumper warranty instead of more rebates.

zzzoom6

wondering who's driven both...thought the v-6 engine was quite good when I drove the older one. but hopefully they made the suspension and steering a bit better.

I know I could go and test drive one, but I always feel a bit uncomfortable wasting a salesperson's time. they put up with long hours and a fair amount of attitude from people who by default don't trust them so I'd hate to be the one taking their time when they could be spending time with a person who will actually buy something somewhat soon.

tamu2002

Thanks I remember you from a while back in the debate about the imports vs domestics. Now I'm one of the Honda owners! Unbelievable. To me the question was never wether the imports are in general better, it was wether they are $6K better. I was happy to stumble onto this great deal on the Accord. So far I'm very impressed. For the same money ($16K), it was a no brainer to go with the Accord. However I was a little disappointed with a faulty rear seat fold down mechanism in my spanking new Honda when our then-new Malibu had zero defect for 3 years. I'm still loving it though.

mistermister1

Backy;

Felt the same way about Camry vs. Sonata. Much better ride in the Sonata. Also found the base Camry (which the dealer loaned me for a weekend) boring compared to the 6-cylinder Sonata. My '06 GLS 6-cylinder Sonata now has 50,000 kms/30,000 miles on it, and it still seems as crisp and as smooth as the day I bought it.

goodegg

If it was 5 years and even 75K miles (15K mile per year) bumper to bumper that would have been attractive to many people who would know they wouldn't have to spend any money on repairs during the course of a 5 year loan

A longer warranty doesn't mean you "wouldn't have to spend money on repairs during the course of a 5 year loan". It only means a little more security that you won't have the big bang going off on your dime thru that time period.

Most warranties are peppered with exclusions, prorations, deductibles and other caveats. I'd rather have the better-made car than the longer warranty.

jaxs1

Most factory warranties cover about everything other than maintenance, damage and wear items (brake pads etc.).
As long as it was a continuation of the factory warranty, it would still be much more useful and attractive than the powertrain-only warranty they are offering.

lahiri

"It's better than just about everybody else in this class except Hyundai, Mitsubishi, and Suzuki."

Better only if you drive more than 12,000 miles a year. Otherwise, coverage offered by Honda/ Toyota/ Nissan/ Ford are as good.

lahiri

"GM would have to offer a 7 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty, to sell their inferior cars. "

A 7 year/ 100K mile on powertrain could be a better start. Just about everyone else offers 5 year on powertrain and there's nothing great about this new warranty.

backy

Depends on if it is transferrable or not. Suzuki's is (7 years, 100k miles), Hyundai/Kia's and Mitsubishi's powertrain warranties are not. Anybody know?

imidazol97

>Just about everyone else offers 5 year on powertrain

Honda has a 5 year but only 60K mi warranty. This is 100,000 mi which for more typical family use is 20K mi per year.

joe97

Hyundai - 5/50 B2B, 10/100 Powertrain:

As to the transferability, it is as followed:

5/50 B2B fully transferable

10/100 B2B (add $500.00)

10/100 B2B fully transferable (add $750.00)

10/100 Powertrain fully transferable to family members and/or domestic partners; otherwise 5/60

The key here is bumper-to-bumper, which is more attractive...

moracity

Jetta is not a midsize sedan. It's a compact sedan. Right now, it's the most well-appointed and well-engineered compact sedan on the market at it's price point. The Value Edition is really a steal.

The Passat is the VW midsized car and features amenities not available on the Jetta.

I'm torn between the GLI and Passat 2.0T right now since they cost about the same, equally equipped. The biggest difference for me the the lack of DSG on the Passat. Even though the GLI is slightly smaller, I can't see shelling out 30k for a VW without DSG. On the other hand, 30k for a compact sedan that isn't an Audi or BMW is a bit hard to swallow.

That Hyundai Azera is beyond ugly. It's like a Frankenstein mesh of 5 year old styling from Honda, Ford, and Audi. Look at the profile! It's got an Accord rear, a weird Ford middle and a 2001 A4 front end. This is tyical for Hyundai. They bascially copied every other car makers' style for the past several years...and not in a good way.

louiswei

I kind of agree with you on most Hyundai styling. However I recently have a different view on the Azera. Before I saw it in person I think it's an outdated design as well but my view towards it changed after I saw one on the street. It looks elegent, not head-turning stunning but very elegent. As matter of fact I think it looks way better than any Avalon I've seen before.

backy

A couple of corrections:

* Hyundai's B2B warranty is 5/60k, not 5/50k.

* The standard 10/100k powertrain warranty is no longer transferrable, not even to family members. That ended a few years ago (2003?). It was true with my '01 Elantra, not true with my '04.

Not sure where you get your figures for making the 10/100k warranty B2B and fully transferrable. When I checked into Hyundai's extended warranty, which makes the B2B warranty 10/100k and transferrable, the best price I could get was about $900 for a '04 Elantra. Are you saying it costs only $750 for a Sonata?

lahiri

I agree that this new GM warranty is good for those who drive 20K/ year. I don't drive that much. Even GM says that very few drive more than 16K miles a year. So, 5 year/ 100K is at best 5 year/ 80K and the remaining 20K is just for eye-wash. Actually, GM is scared of going beyond 5 years because its cars don't last that long (I know from my first hand experience of owning GM products and not from any perception-gap that GM's CEO talks about). Then, you get peanuts when you try to trade in 5+ year old GM.

backy

GM cars don't last more than five years? That's ridiculous. I can't count how many Buick Centurys I see from 10-20 years ago plying around the streets of the Twin Cities. Many of them are rusted (lots of road salt), but still running fine. My sister owns a 20-year-old Century and it's still running strong, although the A/C went out and it has some rust spots. How many 20-year-old Accords and Camrys do you see running around? I also see lots of 5-10+ year old Grand Ams running around.

imidazol97

Wish I had a dollar for all the 87 and that era Sierras, Centurys, S2000s I see running around. One's parked up the road as someone's beater car. it's in PRIME condition. Yup. Guess they don't last.

Look at all the 92 and up H bodies, LeSabres, 88s, Bonnevilles running around. Many have been traded and are owned by people with less money to spend and they ahve a dependable car and they're driven to and from daily.

mz6greyghost

Actually, GM is scared of going beyond 5 years because its cars don't last that long

Heh, of the cars I see on a day-to-day basis that are older than 5 years, a vast majority of them are GM, especially Buicks.

lahiri

Keep buying the Buicks if you like them. But I don't need to learn about GM quality from anyone else after owning 2 GM products and suffering personally. I burned my fingers and I am really scared of fire. You haven't and you can walk into fires with smile. It all depends on personal experience, and I'm not surprised that my experience is not identical to yours.

mfletou1

Yeah, having been burned (figuratively) my GM on so many previous occassions, I understand this sentiment.

But really this is just a marketing thing. Engines were not the problem with GM--particularly with regard to reliability. It was the other stuff that failed on my car, and I've got absolutely no reason to trust that it won't happen again in the future.

Hence my new Camry.

imidazol97

>Hence my new Camry.

How's your transmission working?

autoboy16

looks promising!! It has the looks, the ergo, the performance and the low $$! IS this attempt by GM worth it? It seems much better than the g6 (in fact, all saturn vehicles look better than their pontiac counterparts. Look the the solstice vs sky for example) and has a unique dealer network. Has anyone tested the aura? If so, how does it stack up with the Camcordtimanatabu6? Did gm actually do a good job?

My hybrid aura comments come later. Luckily gm learned from honda and did make it an I4 instead of v6!



-Cj

elroy5

Heh, of the cars I see on a day-to-day basis that are older than 5 years, a vast majority of them are GM, especially Buicks.

How many thumb tacks are holding up the head liner? Can you hear the radio over the squeaks and rattles? Does the A/C, or any thing else electric still work? How many thousands of dollars have been spent on repairs? Does the door close all the way, or bounce back out. Years of experience, owning and driving GM vehicles, gave me many memories of bad cars, and trucks. All it took was one Honda, to know I wouldn't be buying GM anymore.

imidazol97

I had to use a staple gun to hold the rear of the headliner of our family friend's 95 Honda Civic up. I tried hot glue and that didn't work. So ha ha about your thumb tacks. And her car wouldn't start two times in the last months she owned it. It only had 80K miles on it. It was rusting out behind the rear wheels. It idled rough with or without the air conditioning on.

She dumped it for a Corolla. Bad memories.

Actually all cars have some problems. How major or how minor you want to think of them is subjective.

elroy5

She dumped it for a Corolla. Bad memories.

Please notice your own words. She didn't dump it for a Chevy. That would have only added to the bad memories.

ontop

That Hyundai Azera is beyond ugly. It's like a Frankenstein mesh of 5 year old styling from Honda, Ford, and Audi. Look at the profile! It's got an Accord rear, a weird Ford middle and a 2001 A4 front end. This is tyical for Hyundai. They bascially copied every other car makers' style for the past several years...and not in a good way.

I feel the same way. Hyundai may build a better car, but their designs are so aweful looking I can't imagine having to look at it in my garage every day. Even GM can put out a good looking ride. Who wants to drive an ugly car? Cars are an extension of your own personality.

lahiri

Dumping a Honda is easy since resale value is decent. I had tough time dumping my Blazer because resale value was peanuts.

lahiri

Aura hybrid? New Saturn drivetrains are scary. Don't you remember what happened with VUE CVT? GM had to discontinue CVT because each VUE CVT it built needed a new tranny in first 2 years. Those who ended up with a VUE CVT had little options but to trash their vehicles since GM refused to give them their money back. Well, if you want to help GM test new technologies, feel free.

bobad

Cars are an extension of your own personality.

Let me guess which parts of the car best match your personality. The horn and the exhaust?

All joshing aside, car's aren't an extension of anything. They're just machines. You may fancy that a car makes you look good, but the man makes the car, the car doesn't make the man.

imidazol97

Actually she would have been much better off with a Focus or 500 or Malibu. The dealer service would have been much better than the local "we let you buy one of our cars even though you're barely worthy" Toyo dealer. She wouldn't even shop the competition dealer 30 miles away (by interstate drive even) who cuts pricing.

She still won't tell what ripoff charges the dealer added on. The pack on the car was a $500 IIRC--I looked on the lot at their stickers. She hates negotiating. So she just hurried to get a car purchased.

She had problems with a 197X or 198X GM product so therefore her stubborn mind wouldn't even consider another one. She's one of the "I know everything based on what happened long ago". She overlooks her problems with the wunderHonda!!! Some people have diminished capacity for logic. That's what keeps the image going for some brands.

What's even sillier is her adult daughter is a great negotiator and would have gone to the dealers with her.

>That would have only added to the bad memories.

Can you prove that?

lweiss

Uh, I think our "friends" in Cuba may disagree about your assessment of GM's longevity- supposedly there are many cars there from pre-Castro/embargo days, like GM/Ford/Chrysler cars from the '40's and '50's that are still running (actually it would be interesting to see all of them, like a living museum). And if you travel to Latin America, lots of older American cars that are still in daily service (they have a big business there buy old cars and rejuvenating them). With decent maintenance, most cars can go for 20+ years (I know what you are thinking, define "decent maintenance")

cajuncycler

You are pretty mistaken there. I own a first year VUE with all wheel drive with that CVT. I have towed with it and it performs well in city driving. The transmission still performs flawlessly. :P

cajuncycler

That Hyundai Azera is beyond ugly. It's like a Frankenstein mesh of 5 year old styling from Honda, Ford, and Audi. Look at the profile! It's got an Accord rear, a weird Ford middle and a 2001 A4 front end. This is tyical for Hyundai. They bascially copied every other car makers' style for the past several years...and not in a good way.

I feel the same way. Hyundai may build a better car, but their designs are so aweful looking I can't imagine having to look at it in my garage every day. Even GM can put out a good looking ride. Who wants to drive an ugly car? Cars are an extension of your own personality.

You two probably couldn't spot a rusty car in a junk yard. There is nothing wrong with the styling of the Sonata or the Azera. Maybe you both are punk rocker generation and like the hard edge look of the current GM crop of car styling. Us older people remember when cars had an elegance to styling. And these cars gentleman are understated and elegant.

jeffyscott

How many thumb tacks are holding up the head liner?

Oh my, you want to claim superior headliners :surprise: ...are you kidding me. I was just in a 2000 or 2001 Toyota 4-Runner recently. It still has cheap cardbord covered by very thin cloth for the headliner...not falling down yet but showing symptoms of beginning to detach.

I don't know if they have upgraded in the last few years, but I know that Fords from the mid 90s have far higher quality headliners than that fairly recent Toyota. I think even my '89 Voyager had better.

mz6greyghost

Aura hybrid? New Saturn drivetrains are scary. Don't you remember what happened with VUE CVT? GM had to discontinue CVT because each VUE CVT it built needed a new tranny in first 2 years. Those who ended up with a VUE CVT had little options but to trash their vehicles since GM refused to give them their money back. Well, if you want to help GM test new technologies, feel free.

Yet another over-generalization. The Vue CVT's were indeed problematic, but there are still SOME out there without a single issue.

louiswei

Fords from the mid 90s have far higher quality headliners than that fairly recent Toyota.

If by "higher quality" you meant soft cloth then I'll have to disagree with you. As matter of fact I hate soft cloth headliners, they are easy to get dirty and hard to clean. I much prefer my 97 Accord's fake leather headliner than my Lexus' cloth one.

booyahcramer

There is nothing wrong with the styling of the Sonata or the Azera. Maybe you both are punk rocker generation and like the hard edge look of the current GM crop of car styling.

That's your opinion of course. I happen to agree that Hyundai needs a kick in the shin design-wise. Their designers have the Eastern Hungary school of design look - but apparently that's OK with you 'older people'. I'm 45. Is that 'older people'? I like a flashier car. Hyundai doesn't compare favorably to what else is out there.

meateater

All joshing aside, car's aren't an extension of anything. They're just machines. You may fancy that a car makes you look good, but the man makes the car, the car doesn't make the man.

Man makes the car? Huh?

If you don't care about the looks of a car when buying it, you're in the very small minority. I'd venture to say looks is one of the top reasons people buy any car.

If somebody's looking for just an A to B ride, it seems unlikely they're a car 'enthusiast' and visit these forums. Just reading these forums makes me want to go buy another car.

thegraduate

>Some people have diminished capacity for logic. That's what keeps the image going for some brands.

Can you prove that? Just as much as I could about GM's quality causing bad memories.

thegraduate

I'd venture to say looks is one of the top reasons people buy any car.
Um, I'm 19, and supposed to care about my "image" right? Well, the car doesn't make who I am, I'll tell you that. Things on my list when car shopping, in this order...

Interior Space/Comfort (Why buy a car that doesn't fit?) tie with handling/ride compromise (also considered comfort)
-Mazda 6 is out; too small

Gas Mileage vs. Power compromise (A hot rod that guzzles or a slowpoke that sips fuel was not something I'd consider)
-Fusion out; 4-cyl doesn't match economy of the other models (24/34 vs something like 24/31...I drive hwy a lot)
Does it fit the budget?

What is it's reliability record/how much will this car cost me to own for 10-15 years?
-Hyundai was still scary to me, any other domestics left are now out

THEN, I take the cars I'm left with (In this case, it was Camry & Accord & Altima) and choose the better looker inside and out. The Camry bored me to tears (2006 model) so I went with the Honda. The Nissan interior was too hollow (cheap) feeling compared with the others.

I respectfully disagree that looks are a top priority for car buyers, at least midsize sedan buyers anyway.

mfletou1

Like 99% of Camry owners, my transmission is working great. I didn't buy a V6 that was one of the first 1,000 or so made.

Actually, mine has the CVT. Its smooth and effortless.

On your larger point though---at a certain point, my frustration became the sheer number of problems with my cars, but a decent chunk of this was how the company DEALT with those problems.

I can tolerate a mechanical problem with a car if the manufacturer is aggressive about finding a solution. In my experience with GM, that was not the case. The brake issue is a good example. Talk to a GM mechanic about non-ventilated brakes. Ask them what the rotors they see on new cars look like after a few thousand miles. It happens over and over again on literally hundreds of thousands of cars. There's no excuse for it. One mechanic told me they might as well just schedule the first appointment for a rotor resurface when you buy the car. I've had 5 GM cars since 1997, all but one of them had rotor issues. (And I'm sure somebody will reply to my that they had X car and it never had a rotor issue, yes, that's fine, but you're the exception, not the rule if you owned a GM midsize).

As I've said before, my wife had a 2001 Alero GLS Coupe with 21k miles. When it was 3 months past its 3 year warranty, it had a total failure of the power steering system. It cost $2500 to replace. GM told us tough luck. Talk about not standing behind your products. They really think that's acceptable for a vehicle with that mileage? Had they taken care of me, maybe I'd feel better about a new GM vehicle. Or I would have until my '02 Intrigue died while I was driving 65 mph on a highway (and nearly killed me along with it) and it took 3 trips to the dealer to figure out what the problem was after it kept dying at speed.

So, you know what...I'm going to try a Toyota this time, thanks.

goodegg

I respectfully disagree that looks are a top priority for car buyers, at least midsize sedan buyers anyway.

I like that "repectfully" modifier !

Man - when I was 19 I wanted a Vette or a DeLorean - not the Gran Torino I ended up with (Starsky & Hutch mobile). The last things I cared about was everything you mention. Looks was the first.

What's this world coming to?