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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Oh my, a Dodge Dakota truck front on a car? I think not. OK they are playing with the disguise.
    -Loren
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    The reason you see that the new Sentra is looking like a Fusion is because the front end of the Fusion is a copy of the G35.

    If the Fusion looked anything like a G35 in real life, there'd be one siting in my driveway. I think the Fusion has a lot of classic American design up front in a more modern form.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    One quick note about Hyundai's warranty, HMA has said the warranty cost is currently running "30 to 40 percent" when the program first started (and half as much as it was in '02. Improvement? Yep!

    HMA backs up its cars with the impressive warranty, as the company has full confidence in the vehicle lineup, and the results show.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Maybe you can say more about what you mean by "depreciates faster." Do you mean percentage of MSRP, for example? That is a common way to calculate depreciation, but is meaningless in the real world where most people don't pay MSRP. Also, I think it is important to look at the depreciation dollars vs. percentages.

    Consider that I would spend less of my money up front, if (as you implied) I were to buy a Sonata instead of, say, a Camcord. At the end, 5-10 years out, the dollar depreciation should be at worst equal but as time goes on will favor the less expensive car. Factor in the utility value of the up-front savings (which is considerable if for example $5000 is saved up front) and I have no worries about depreciation.

    However, if someone were to buy a mid-sized car and own it for only 2-3 years, then the depreciation question would be dicier. It depends on the amount of the up-front savings compared to buying a car that has traditionally high resale value, like a Camcord.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    The Fusion, to my eye, does not look like any of the Nissan front ends with the possible exception of the vertical shape of the head light casing.

    The grills and lower facia look totaly different to me, as does the hood and front fender "tie-in" to the hood.

    While visuals are completely personal, I prefer the Nissan look (maybe it's mostly the grill).
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    A luxury division of Hyundai has been discussed...certainly annoucement will come in the near future. Many models are already in the works (I expect 3-4 when everything is ready to go initially).

    Engines for the "BH" likely 3.8L V6 270+hp; and 4.6 V8 340+hp.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    If Hyundai creates a new division for luxury cars it will be akin to Honda having created the Acura division or Toyota the Lexus or Nissan the Infinity.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    They won't create one just yet

    i heard at least they have to get to top 5 in auto sales

    But for now the equus will be called hyundai equus and tiburon or tuscani will be hyunai as well

    quite possibly when a bigger version of santa fe comes out by 2009 they may have a seperate luxury division

    Next year their dual vvt technology will be implemented in most hyundais, as well hyundai is working with studie for "speed versions" of their sonata, elantra and accent
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Posts: 97
    Senior Jose said,
    ...the long term warranty was brought out by Hyundai as a last ditch effort to stay in business because nobody would buy their poor quality autos and they were absolutely desperate. They are probably not a bad set of wheels for throwaway autos, they have no faith in their own autos still...their "save the company" warranty is still with us.

    You know that may be true that they brough the warranty to save their company in North America. However, that was a brilliant marketing and business move. They sold more vehicles and since '99 they were also forced to drastically improve quality. They replaced all of the bean counters on the top with engineers and look at the difference in 6 years.

    Their sales figures are ever increasing and their quality is matching/overtaking that of Toyota/Honda in some of the surveys. You can say whatever you may, but an honest businessman cannot help but walk away extremely impressed with what Hyundai did in six years.

    Are you a Hyundai insider and do you know the inner-workings of the Hyundai executives? How do you know that they have no faith in their own vehicles? Ignorant and suppositional statements like that make Honda/Toyota fans look like fools.

    I don't mind at all that Hyundai was a humble, hungry, and desperate car manufacturer not too long ago. As long as they continue to hunger for improvement and not be complacent I will be a customer for life.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    ...and you're willing to spend that bigger portion of your money into something that depreciates faster than its competitors?

    Don't be brainwashed by TV advertising, legend, and projections from someone in a back room wearing a green eyeshade.

    I don't intend to sell my Sonata to a wholesale auction. I will sell it privately just like all my other old cars. Just like my other 8-14 year old cars, it will roundly beat the books and projections. If you trade your car in, you get just what you deserve... bottom dollar.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Their sales figures are ever increasing and their quality is matching/overtaking that of Toyota/Honda in some of the surveys. You can say whatever you may, but an honest businessman cannot help but walk away extremely impressed with what Hyundai did in six years.

    Well said. Years of experience in business and manufacturing have taught me to read certain "signs" in a corporation. If I dig deeply enough, I can easily recognize when a company is deeply committed to improvement and to marketing a truly good product. All the signs are there at Hyundai, and are reflected in the latest Sonata. One of the main signs is big time spending on capital equipment. You can call that "putting their money where their advertising mouth is".
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Take my word for it...the luxury division is coming soon :)

    Equus has not been set in stone yet but it has a nice ring to it. "BH" is the working codename, and it's been used since when the car was first given the grenn light.

    The SUV above Santa Fe, "EN", will come next year for the US market. It will be the Azera of the Sonata, just in SUV form ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    IMO Hyundai is moving too fast if they try to launch a luxury division in the U.S. "soon". First I think they should demonstrate that they can sell vehicles in volume over the $30k price point. For example, when they add nav to the Azera, and maybe some other features like XM and Bluetooth, which will bring it into the low $30s, let's see how well it does. Also, loaded Santa Fes and certainly Mesas (with nav) will be over $30k. Sonatas with nav (if and when that ever comes) would list in the high $20s. Hyundai will have launched eight new vehicles over two years by this fall. I think they should focus on those vehicles, and the new Tiburon/Tuscany and Mesa and SUV crossover next year, rather than pour resources into a low-volume luxury division right now.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Chosen ilbo is reporting the oversee release of the 'BH' or successor to the Equus will be delayed just as the hybrid Accent/Rio is being delayed.

    I also found this list this AM. Interesting how big this company is and yet how dismissive the avg person is. They are under the radar and yet they are sellinbg nearly 4 million a year. It's ok tho cuz they love being underestimated. That is how they have passed Honda, Nissan and other giants.
    Current Global Automaker Rankings:

    Ranking - Manufacturer - 2005 Global Sales

    General Motors - 8,381,805
    Toyota Motor Corp. - 8,120,000
    Ford Motor Co. - 6,208,700
    Volkswagen AG - 5,242,793
    DaimlerChrysler AG - 4,854,700
    Hyundai Automotive Group - 3,715,095
    Nissan Motor Co. - 3,597,748
    PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA - 3,390,000
    Honda Motor Co. - 3,365,000
    Renault SA - 2,533,428

    Bet the avg person doesn't think Hyundai outsells Honda and Nissan. But they do!
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Let's face the facts. All logical sense points to the Sonata having a low resale value, comapared to TRANSACTION pricing. I have gone over this many times before. That is the biggest hole in the Sonata's armor. It doesn't take rocket science to see that the Sonata's depreciation is going to be great. If you can buy one new for $16K, Logically, the used car market HAS to pay you less than $16K for your used one and still sell the used car for less than $16K. So if you paid $19K, they will only probably give you 13K for it and try to sell it at $14.5K which will still be a stretch. Usually, there has to be a $2K difference between new and used to make it worth while for buyers. Trust me, my friend runs one of the largest used car lots I have seen. The Camcord has never really resorted to high incentives so their resale value has been relatively good. The Sonata is not so. People need to face facts and stop denying the logical obvious.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    If Hyundai makes a luxury division, they need to change how they look at things IMO. At that point they should focus on quality and reliability, like Lexus and not pricing. Pricing at that level doesn't really matter. I think the Hyundai luxury brand will have a hard climb up hill if it tries to compete with BMW and Merc's upper end. Not even Lexus really competes with Merc on the upper end. Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti really make their money on lower end semi luxury like RXs, G35s, ESs, ETC. From the time you cross into the E-Class territory, or 5 Series, or CLS, or 6 Series or any other high end models, you are looking for long cold nights. Look at Audi, beautiful car company making some of the highest quality and rated vehicles around. They still are unable to really compete at the higher end.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    People need to face facts and stop denying the logical obvious.

    People need to quit bringing their old cars to used car dealers. If you sell it privately, a clean, 1-owner car that everything works on will always fetch $1-$2K more than a dealer will give you. Take your choice. Do you want top dollar, or bottom dollar for your old car? It's up to you. If you want bottom dollar, it's fine with me. That's how used car dealers are able to make a good living.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I agree with you and backy. It's not time for a luxo division. Young car buyers often start buying a certain badge, and move up as their income increases. I have seen many people buy Corolla's or Civic's, and move right on up to Accord-Camry, then Lexus-Accura. Hyundai does not quite have the history to do that. Sure, they could sell some cars to bargain hunting luxo drivers, but not enough IMHO. I think Hyundai needs to let their loyal drivers mature for a couple of more model cycles. ;)
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    will be coming by late 2007 along with tiburon. They will be under the label of hyundai and both rwd

    If honda can have a s2000 rwd under their belt , hyundai can do the same with these two

    by 2007 i have no doubt in my mind hyundais nameplate will have respect, at least similiar to nissan whose cars are not even as good as hyundai in terms of quality(though maxima to infiniti does) but do have respect. The azera is selling at a respectable volume already(competing well against avalon, lucerne, maxima) i think the equus can compete well against a (acura tl, infinity g35) and is cheaper though its really meant to bang with bmw 5 series(Size of the car and luxury)
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Posts: 172
    When did this thread become the Hyundai thread? Pretty tiresome. They make decent, low-priced vehicles. Period. They have zero panache at the country club or valet parking kiosk, but I guess when you buy a Hyundai, it's because you're practical and 'don't care what the neighbors think'.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    They make decent, low-priced vehicles. Period. They have zero panache at the country club or valet parking kiosk, but I guess when you buy a Hyundai, it's because you're practical and 'don't care what the neighbors think'.

    You're more or less right. Although I don't really care what others think about my Sonata, they seem to like it a lot. Panache? One doesn't normally buy a mid-sized sedan for panache. None of the cars in this class have panache, for goshsake. :D
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    None of the cars in this class have panache

    I disagree. A top of the line Accord definitely has a refined air about it that pushes the entry level luxury performance envelope. Buy yes, you pay for that.
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    Accord, panache ? Of the midsize offerings the accord is one of the most bland and dated out there. The exterior screams me too, but the interior on the otherhand is very nice and upscale. But panache not hardly.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Hyundai is like a smaller version of GM. They can sell a decent number of cars, but don't make much on them. Not good for profits, or the future.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    The "panache" of a car plus a few bucks can get me a coffee at Starbucks. If I were to buy a car for its panache, it would not be a mass-market family car like the Accord, Camry, etc.

    If you want to start a thread on some mid-sized car topic that is of interest to you, go for it--no one is stopping you.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I disagree. A top of the line Accord definitely has a refined air about it that pushes the entry level luxury performance envelope. Buy yes, you pay for that.

    Relitavely speaking, Accord, Camry, Sonata, Fusion, Altima are all nice cars. But they would all be embarrassed by cars with real panache. I don't think the upper crust would get excited about cars designed mainly to drive Mom to work. :D
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    [Edited for clarity]

    People need to face facts and stop denying the logical obvious.

    OK, let's face some facts. With current incentives, a Sonata V6 can be had for under $17k. What is the current market price of a comparable Accord or Camry V6 (with alloys and ESC)? According to Edmunds.com, $23k would be a really good price for a Camry LE V6 with ESC and alloys. So let's say a $6000 difference.

    Now move out five years and let's sell the Camry and Sonata. Let's say the Sonata would sell for $6000, based on Edmunds.com TMV for a private-party sale of a clean 2001 Sonata GLS V6 in my area. (I think that is low because the '06 Sonata is a much better car than the '01 Sonata, but let's be conservative.) That is $11,000 less than the purchase price. That means the Camry would need to sell for at least $12,000 to come out as well financially as on the Sonata. But the private-party TMV for a five-year old Camry LE V6 similarly equipped to the Sonata is just under $11,000 (based on the 2001 Camry).

    Just one fact-based example that shows that higher up-front discounts and incentives can make up for higher resale value.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    People need to quit bringing their old cars to used car dealers. If you sell it privately, a clean, 1-owner car that everything works on will always fetch $1-$2K more than a dealer will give you.

    Yes, but this is a moot point, since the same is true for a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc...
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I know. I was just raling against the "low re-sale value" the Sonata detractors keep warning about. If one is diligent, he can make those people "wrong". ;)

    A good thing about selling your old car is, if offered a figure that would be considered a low resale value, you can always refuse it. In other words, the seller can influence the resale value.

    (Edited heavily)
This discussion has been closed.