Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

lahiri

I need a midsize car and I'm going to trade in the Protege. Looks like Accord is the best bet. Are the new models as reliable as the old ones?

backy

Sonata and Malibu do cost less than the Accord--up front. Why a Malibu? Maybe someone likes the idea of buying a Chevy. Maybe they have a Chevy dealer two miles down the road and the nearest Honda dealer is 50 miles away. Who knows? But keep in mind, it's not the same price--the five-year costs of ownership are about the same. There's a difference.

If two cars cost about the same to own after five years and I like one of them better, it's an easy decision. If I like them about the same, then up-front costs are important to me because I can do other things with the extra money over the five years. For example, with cars like the Accord and Camry, you pay more up front but get the difference back when (if) you sell them after five years. With cars like the Sonata and Malibu, you pay less up front. I'd rather have the extra money now vs. five years from now.

tamu2002

I recently found out that it depends. We got our manual 06 Accord base model for $16300. The car has auto everything, side airbags, ABS, AC, Cruise, and then some. Trust me I did the comparison shopping. A comparably equipped Fusion or Sonata falls in the sme ballpark.

Not trying to convice anybody of anything, I looked at the Fusion first mind you. Under different circumstances, either a Honda or a Malibu or Fusion could end up being the best value than the others.

backy

Sorry, an Accord VP is not comparably equipped to even a base Sonata GL. And keep in mind you got an exceptional deal on a 2006 close-out. There are several examples of buyers getting Sonata V6s for about the same price in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion. So enjoy your Accord, but it in no way compares in equipment level to a Sonata puchased under similar circumstances.

FYI, here are some things you get on a base Sonata that you don't get on an Accord VP:

* Rear stabilizer bar
* 4-wheel disc brakes
* 16" wheels
* Electronic Brake Force Distribution
* Traction control
* Electronic stability control
* Security system w/alarm
* Variable intermittant wipers
* Power mirrors
* Body-color door handles
* Illuminated power window switches
* Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shifter
* Illuminated vanity mirrors
* Map lights
* Sunglasses holder
* Dual 12-volt outlets
* Fold down rear seat armrest
* 6 speaker audio system with MP3
* Longer warranty
* Five years roadside protection

thegraduate

Well, to be fair, I'll only use the models we've had in our family since my 96...

2000 and 2001 Accord LXs, both got wrecked - sold. Never had issues with these with about 30k-40k miles on each....

My grandmother has a 2002 Accord LX, no problems at ALL, 82,000 miles and drives like new (i took it to get new tires the other day for her and it drove beautifully).

2003 Accord EX, first year of current design had a couple of uncharacteristic rattles...got wrecked at something like 35k-45k miles (Nov. 2004) - sold.

2005 Accord EX, much quieter, fewer rattles. developed a suspension rattle at 51k miles (well after warranty expired) but dealer fixed goodwill; just needed lubrication. Never charged a dime. Dad still has it, 58k miles, no issues.

2006 Accord EX (my car), fuel-door had a rubber grommet thingy (not sure what the technical term is) that was misaligned and caused the fuel door to refuse to open. After working the door open, the rubber piece (smaller than a thumb) was re-set properly. No other problems, 11,100 miles so far.

jimmy81

But the Accord keeps you from having to own a Hyundai.

goodegg

Not sure I'd opt for the VP Accord over the Sonata, but any other Accord trim I would.

lahiri

I agree that we need to take Edmunds' numbers and adjust them for such differences. In fact, I pointed this out for Malibu/ Accord comparison. Longer warranty/ roadside protection is probably factored in Edmunds' numbers. But other things are not. Also, not all differences matter - many customers may not care about body colored handles, but they would probably love a standard 6 speaker audio system with MP3.

lahiri

I'm thinking of the Special Edition with 4 cylinders (will go for 6 if Gas prices fall below $2).

jeffyscott

FYI, you can use Edmunds to generate True Cost to Own for under different assumptions

You can? How do you do that? I can not find any way to change the assumptions.

w9cw

Your loss, not ours!

scape2

??An Accord for $16,300?? Where? what dealership? e-mail me the dealership name, phone number, your VIN# of your Accord, or at least the last 5 digits anyway..

I find it really hard you got an Accord for $16,300. The lowest I have ever seen an Accord in my region was $17,999 for the VP model, stripped down..4cyl, manual.. ect... :surprise:

scape2

Found a co-worker today who chose the Impala SS over a Honda Accord V6 or a Camry V6!?? His claim was larger car, more power, more room, more fun to drive, less $$.. Took a look at the car and its a very nice Blue with black leather interior. Sharp looking.

bobad

Still, Sonata or Malibu aren't any cheaper - you'd think that they'd cost you less than class leaders like Accord.

That's pure voodoo math. Where do you get your information?

How in the world can you predict what a car will cost you 5 years out? How about cars that have a bumper-to-bumper warranty for 5 years?

jeffyscott

Why is it hard to believe? Invoice minus the $750 cash to dealer incentive is about $16,250 on that car.

lahiri

How in the world can you predict what a car will cost you 5 years out?

Ask Edmunds since I fetched the numbers from Edmunds' True Cost to Own.

How about cars that have a bumper-to-bumper warranty for 5 years?

I guess Edmunds' True Cost to Own take into account the additional warranty.

lahiri

Yes, I bought a 06 CR-V LX for 19K (invoice is 19400 and sticker is 21000) - it was possible due to factory to dealer incentives.

To find out information on factory to dealer incentives, check carsdirect.com website.

kdhspyder

The difference is in how the problem is handled. Recalls can be from nothing to just a small inconvenience to a constant headache if not done properly. It doesn't matter which automaker is doing the adjustment as long as it's fixed simply and without any inconvenience to the owner.

I'm certain that the cupholder issue on the recent DC products will be fixed without anyone hardly knowing about it.

elroy5

Found a co-worker today who chose the Impala SS over a Honda Accord V6 or a Camry V6!??

Another victim of the dreaded "Pretty Car" syndrome (bought a car based mainly on looks).

His claim was larger car, more power, more room, more fun to drive, less $$..

What he forgot about was more problems, more gas $$$, and less quality.

Took a look at the car and its a very nice Blue with black leather interior. Sharp looking.

My guess is, he will be trying to sell the car in 5 years (or less) because of numerous problems and substantial gas spending. But by that time, the car won't be worth much.

About this time, he will become a potential Honda or Toyota customer.

thegraduate

Battle?

Why do you always treat Honda or Camry as an enemy? Everytime something bad is said about them, you get really giddy it seems.

We stopped buying domestics after a leaky Ford (have the garage stains to prove that one) and two Chryslers that both needed transmissions within 15k miles of purchase. WOO-HOO!!! :confuse:

By the way, regarding the sarcasm about Hondas not costing much (the VP for $16,xxx), deals like this on the outgoing 2006 models were quite prevailent...:

12624 of 12677 Re: 2006 or 2007? [warwickwebb] by jlum866 Sep 05, 2006 (1:37 pm)
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Replying to: warwickwebb (Sep 05, 2006 11:08 am)

I just bought 2006 Honda Accord EX-L w/navi. I paid about 1800 below invoice. See my earlier post. You should try for better price. There is 750 rebate Honda to dealer and also 3% holdback. Reading the posts here, I think you can get a very good deal on a 06 right now. I would certainly call other dealers if you have not already. My gut feeling on my deal is that I could have lowered my price by a couple of hundred dollars more. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

tncarman

No offense, but I strongly disagree with you, wow, this isnt tue.

First, you stated:
"Another victim of the dreaded "Pretty Car" syndrome (bought a car based mainly on looks)."
First of all, read one sentence below that, it tells whu he bought it, it wasnt looks, no where on there did he say he bought it for looks, it was the person who posted this that said so.

Two: "What he forgot about was more problems, more gas $$$, and less quality."
.... Sure, the gas mileage is less. But think about this, BIGGER engines use MORE gas. And its not bad for that amount of power. And less quality is true but only by a small amount. GM is just getting better with those problems, and the last IMpala I sat in was very well put together, I noticed no flaws at all. Also, there WON"T be many problems. In the CR i was reading, the Impala had almost just as good reliabilty as the Toyota. Maybe half/circle off. Thats not bad. But the Camry is also a new model now, and Toyota has been problem prone lately. Im sorry but recalling over 5million vehicles in one quarter does't exactly sound like the most reliable car company to me. I can see why he went with the Impala, and it is truely a shame that the you believe the media's crap about GM. One problem makes front page news, 3 million vehicels recalled for Toyota, page 8. Come back AFTER you've done your research on this car.

elroy5

I can see why he went with the Impala, and it is truly a shame that the you believe the media's crap about GM.

The media has nothing to do with my feelings about GM. My own experiences (with GM vehicles) have formed a lasting impression. From my father's Malibu ($2000 worth of repairs in 3 years), to the Monte Carlo I owned myself (the fuse would blow and the brake lights would be out, if someone accidentally tried to use the cigarette lighter, and the A/C never did work right, besides taking half the power from the V6 engine when it did work). I have even driven around in an 06 Impala for a week (rental), and after driving an 03 V6 Accord for three years, the lack of quality, and refinement, is very apparent. Cheap looking, and feeling controls, and interior (I had to reach around the shifter, to get to the cheap feeling A/C controls, and the tiny light on the A/C knob that tells you when the A/C is on could hardly be seen without being crouched down and almost in the back seat). Jittery ride when going straight, and nose dives when cornering. These are just a few of the problems I've experienced. There were many more.

They are "Pretty" to look at, but not much good for driving.

lahiri

elroy5,
I was one of those who thought media was biased against GM till I spent an unimaginable sum on fixing my Blazer (first 5 years I had GM's Major Guard protection, and I spent $10K in 2 years after the major guard expired and the vehicle needed to be towed 9 times during those 2 years). I traded in the 99 Blazer with 71300 miles on it - the 4WD SUV's trade in was $3000, nearly half of that of a Civic! Only then I understood that the media wasn't biased! Now, as I am comparing midsize sedans, I am listening to media and others with full attention.

tamu2002

Man, you made me feel so good about the deal we got on this car As another person pointed out, we took advantage of the $750 rebate and the dealer's eagerness to get rid of the manual VP Accord that nobody seems to want. They still have one left (VP manual) if you're interested in driving to the Northwest .

Who is still able to drive a stick shift these days?

tamu2002

I remember from my research a V6 Sonata would cost at least $1K more than what I paid for our VP Accord. Sure the Sonata has tons of more goodies, but I was mainly looking for a no frill commuter car and really not willing to pay for them, even for $1K more.

tamu2002

Like I said, in some cases a quality domestic car could work out just fine for folks. Yes, they depreciate much faster but they cost a LOT less to begin with too. I'd say $4-7K on average. For example, I could've gotten a fairly loaded new 06 Ford Focus for $12,100. It MSRPs around $18K. Say in 5 years and 50K miles, I sell it for $6K (somebody with faster internet connection please look up the TMV). That's $1220 cost per year. Not bad at all. A new 06 Civic would've cost me $17K to buy. If I sell it in 5 years/50K miles for $10K, that's $1400 cost per year. Worse than the Ford :surprise: ,assuming the repair cost is the same for the two that is.

tamu2002

Edmunds' True-cost-to-own is pretty much meaningless to me. I'm more interested in REAL money out of pocket. And their math doesn't mean zilch because they don't use real world transaction prices in their calculations! Factor in the huge rebates on the domestics, their depreciation suddenly doesn't look that bad.

It's the REAL money out of pocket that counts towards the true cost to own.

tamu2002

I looked up your profile and you ARE in the Northwest! You're in luck! If you're interested, Honda of Kirkland (where I bought) probably still has the dark blue manual VP left. It was made in March 06 and had about 45 miles on it last time I test drove it. The dealer very much wanted to sell me this one but I opted for a newer one (13 miles, made in June 06). I'm sure they'd be willing to sell it to you at my price, probably even less! :shades:

prosource1

It's a simple grab handle above the passenger door that is broken in the Hyundai Sonata that I have rented twice. It made me wonder why it was broken. It appears to be the identical grab handle that is in my new Honda Pilot and my fathers Honda Accord. Hyundai probably buys it from the same company that Honda does since Hyundai now builds their Sonata in Montgomery, Alabama and Honda builds their Accord domestically as well.
What I have found makes me realize Hyundai has all the quality parts, the advanced-technology and the processes to build a world-class sedan, but they just don't seem to have the labor and know-how to put it all together so that it's as solid as it could be. Hyundai claims their quality is better than their rivals yet this broken grab handle reveals that Hyundai isn't quite there yet. What is the problem? Hyundai is not installing a washer beneath the screw that would secure the handle to the frame of the car. Honda does it and Hyundai doesn't. I found it by simply removing the cap of the handle on both vehicles. Is this an intentional oversight? Probably not. It shows however that the more established import name plates have worked out some of the bugs that Hyundai still has to fix over time. Hyundai is just not quite there yet with Honda's Accord. You can feel it the cheapness of the Sonata's exterior door handles that are thin and less substantial than the 2005 door handles of their previous Sonata model made in Korea. You see it in the flimsy exterior mirror that no longer fold like the previous generation Sonata's. You also feel it drivers seat adjustment that doesn't quite fit my 6'2 frame. The two times I rented the Sonata, I just couldn't get the seat cushion comfortable as the lower cushion was leaning forward and wouldn't adjust. The previous generation Sonata's had an adjusting 'dial' that would allow you to raise and lower that cushion. Hyundai has probably removed it for cost-cutting purposes and it is showing to those who have driven Hyundai's previously.
So Hyundai is not quite there but they are very close. They have the parts and processes, and probably what the more established nameplates should fear the most is that they have desire.
I rent over 50 cars a year and I'll see, when I get my next rental Sonata, if they have figured out to install this missing washer. I'll let you know.

luvmbooty

I see there are very few cars in this category with BRAKE ASSIST. What exactly does it do?

All Camry trims have EBD, ABS, Brake Assist, Traction control, and Stability control. Does this make the Camry safer than all the rest?

Some family sedans only offer these safety features with V6 engines, like the Accord V6 that has Stability and Brake Assist or the Fusion V6 optional traction.

The '06.5 Optima I4 EX and V6 models have optional ABS, Brake Assist, Traction control, and Stability.

All '06 and '07 Sonata trims have EBD, ABS, Traction, and stability.

Should I look for safety features or testing like slalom and 60-0 brake distances? I'm really just interested in I4s.

goodegg

I am listening to media and others with full attention.

Does the 'media' actually own the cars they critique? Its easy to pick apart ANY car if you want. Every GM I've ever ownes was a good vehicle. Most notably a 95 S10ECabV6 Auto that had 156,000 miles on it and only needed the wiper control or relay repaired. Not a drop of oil in the garage to the last day. No valve tap. Just good ole truck dents.

Any car (except maybe Fords) will last you if you do the maintenance regularly.

The GM media bash is alive and well. The Impala is a great car for the money.

jeffyscott

All Camry trims have EBD, ABS, Brake Assist, Traction control, and Stability control.

According to edmunds Camry overview: "Stability control (which includes traction control) is optional across the line."

backy

If a missing washer on a handle is the worst problem on the Sonata, I'm not too worried about it.

Many other new models have fixed plastic mirrors also--including the Camry.

Most other cars in this price class have plastic interior door handles. Some at least are chrome-plated. I think this is a penny-wise-pound-foolish error on Hyundai's part. How much more would four brushed metal handles cost?

I think Hyundai also made a mistake ditching the dual-knob height adjuster on almost all their new models. True, their competitors use the same kind of lever-type height adjuster that Hyundai does, and it's easier for some people to use than the knobs. But you just can't adjust the seat with the lever like you can with the two knobs. Fortunately, Hyundai made the power seat more accessible for '07 by making it part of a $500 package even on the lowest trim level; for '06 it was much more expensive.

lahiri

That's your opinion. I compared Equinox with CR-V before I bought CR-V (I used base 2WD automatic models for comparison). Equinox's True Cost to Own was $10K more than CR-V's - and there was no $10K rebate on Equinox. To cut the long story short, rebates may not always compensate for the cost difference.

Also, even if rebates barely compensate for the cost difference, I will go with the one that has better quality and resale value and sells well without rebates - why compromise on quality when the cost of ownership is the same?

lahiri

"The Impala is a great car for the money."

You believe that because you had good experience with the GM vehicles that you owned. Again, this is personal.To me Impala is another Blazer waiting to suck every damn dollar out of my pocket and leave me stranded a zillion times - again, my belief is due to my first hand experience with GM products.

lahiri

I don't think "stability control" is a big deal for cars - it's a big deal for SUVs. However, "traction control" is a big deal for every 2WD vehicle - especially if you are likely to face less than perfect weather or road surface. ABS and curtain airbags are, of course, important. I have all these features standard on my base 2WD 06 CR-V - one more reason to love this $19K cute-ute. As I keep looking for a midsize sedan, safety will be my top priority besides quality and resale value.

tamu2002

Sure. Like I said, it all depends on the circumstances.

tenpin288

I don't think "stability control" is a big deal for cars

That view may become moot very soon. The gov't is preparing some new rules that will require stability control on all new cars in the future.

Gov't to require stability control on new vehicles

backy

That's good news. That would mean that all new cars would also have ABS, since ABS is one of the components that makes ESC work.

jeffyscott

The Edmunds true cost to own figures require a reality check before using them. For the Fusion it includes $3459 in financing costs. Well, if one took the recently offered 0% financing, that is not an accurate figure, the appropriate number would be $0.

The only useful figures that can be gotten from the TCO are the maintenance and repair costs and, perhaps, the depreciation rate (if you are one who trades cars often...or are concerned about that for some other reason). The rest really needs to be figured out individually based on the real selling price and financing terms and your own insurance costs.

scape2

Edmunds TCO is incorrect. I owned a 2001 Escape and its TCO was way, way, way off, way high. No-way were my repair bills as high as they claimed they would be. Plus, I had .9% financing they did not figure into the equation. TCO is a PRESUMED ASSUMPTION.. remember this.. :shades:

badgerfan

I agree, I have never had maintenance and repair costs as ridiculously high as Edmunds TCO numbers, and this is driving those supposedly "inferior" domestic vehicles, Caravans for my wife (now on our third) and Tauri for me ( now on my second), exclusively since 1985 for the Caravans and 1990 for the Tauri. Never have bought an extended warranty on any of them either.

scape2

"Another victim of the dreaded "Pretty Car" syndrome (bought a car based mainly on looks"

You mean a car with actual style? unlike the Camry/Accord?

"What he forgot about was more problems, more gas $$$, and less quality."

How do you know this? Another typical Toyota/Honda owner false statement? Less quality? Car was pretty well put together my friend. Ever been in one?

"About this time, he will become a potential Honda or Toyota customer."

Ever thought out of your box? I did, I wanted different and at 5,000 trouble free miles have never looked back. As consumers find out they don't have to spend extra $$ for a perceived quality/reliability advantage.. what then for Honda/Toyota? Choice is nice.. :shades:

louiswei

The TMV for 06 5 speed manual VP Accord in Atlanta area is $16,645 according to Edmunds. Since Edmunds TMV has a reputation for being conservative it's not surprising that someone can get it for $16,300.

BTW, the $16,645 is without any incentive.

mfletou1

Its a larger car in terms of exterior, but not neccesarily in terms of actual room. It certainly doesn't COST less...you can get a absolutely loaded EX V6 Accord for under $25k without even trying these days. Its a little quicker to 60, but in actual driving conditions that's debatable.

Take a look at the Car and Driver review of the Impala SS. Their basic problem was that the car was not built for the engine and nothing works together particular well. There apparently is a TON of torque steer (303 HP on a front wheel drive V8--yeah, I can see that), handling is not particulary good, the car is noisy.

I personally also like the looks (especially the laser blue), but the interior quality doesn't match Toyota or Honda, either.

Hey, if he's happy, good for him. We'll see if he stays happy in 4-5 years. The odds are not neccesarily with him.

louiswei

Last time we did a comparison of TMV of all top of the line V6 midsize sedans. This time the comparison is for all 4 cylinder base models. All prices include automatic transmission and ABS. Also, some model comes with ESC and some does not.

2006 Honda Accord LX - $19,126
2007 Toyota Camry CE (with ESC) - $19,756
2007 Hyundai Sonata GLS - $17,746 (with $500 incentive)
2007 Ford Fusion S - $19,115
2007 Chevy Malibu LS - $17,573
2006 Nissan Altima S - $17,741 (with $1,750 incentive)
2007 Pontiac G6 Base - $18,707
2006 Mazda MAZDA6 i - $16,600 (with $2,500 incentive)

lahiri

As far as I know, Malibu and G6 don't have ABS standard. Did you add them before calculating TMV? And, Altima doesn't have curtain airbags standard. ABS and curtain airbags are both standard on Accord as well Camry. To me both Accord and Camry look cheap (considering their ability to retain value)!

thegraduate

"Another victim of the dreaded "Pretty Car" syndrome (bought a car based mainly on looks"

You mean a car with actual style? unlike the Camry/Accord?

When did style become objective, folks? At least with fuel mileage, power ratings, and reliability, you can look at some real figures. Arguing about style? C'mon.

If you wanna play that game though... how can you distinguish which is more stylish between these two?





The only differences I see is that the Impala comes with the boy-racer spoiler on it, and bigger wheels. Also where the Accord has more distinctive LED taillights, the Impala has a taillight/brakelight/blinker built all seemingly in one bulb location (something I don't prefer - seperate blinkers and brakelights are something I'd rather have for safety/visibility reasons).

prosource1

Part of my point, which was not accurately conveyed, was a general disappointment with some of the choices Hyundai has made in the door handles(first impression touches of new consumers), grab handles breaking off and cheap mirrors. The consumer crossing-shopping Hyundai is not getting Hyundai's best first-impression. For Hyundai to sell these cross-shoppers, which everyone knows Hyundai is a harder sell than Toyo-Hon cars, Hyundai needs to work harder at some of these issues. I will never understand some of these decision especially the seat which is a huge mistake on their part.

louiswei

I agreed with ya, $19k for an Accord or Camry is not bad at all (especially the Camry). Considering how rich equipped they are.

I believed I added the ABS (but not curtain airbags) onto the Malibu and G6 before calculating the TMV. As for Altima, I did not add the side curtain airbags.