Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

thegraduate

Exactly... there is no "crumple zone" in a side-crash as there is with a front/rear one.

w9cw

I guess some of the folks on this forum are too young to remember the rusted out hulks of Civic CVCC's and early Accords with blown head gaskets, and other mechanical maladies. Honda, and Toyota, had their share of early, and not so early, sub-standard quality problems too. Only those who have owned a Honda, Toyota, et.al., plus a Hyundai can espouse factual experiences, others choose to condemn without any experience to substantiate their claims.

1997montez34

This is a "window sticker" from Pontiac's web site that you can view during an inventory search. It is obviously an error. This is not the actual sticker from a car on a dealer's lot. Drive to a dealer, walk the lot, and take a pic of a real sticker.

scape2

"you can get a absolutely loaded EX V6 Accord for under $25k " Not in my region you can't! Advertised price for an Accord V6 Ex loaded $26,888 (no nav). This is ONE Accord only! Trying to convince the public Honda's are actually low price vehicles makes me laugh over and over again. Anyone who has shopped the market knows Honda vehicles are spendy. Keep up trying to convince people Honda vehicles are less when comparing.. I need a laugh once in a while. Also, tell the guy I know who spent $19,750 for a new Civic EX.. I don't think you can even load a Focus, Sentra or Corolla, Mazda3 or Cobalt for that kind of money! \

"Hey, if he's happy, good for him. We'll see if he stays happy in 4-5 years. The odds are not neccesarily with him."

He is very happy with his Impala SS. And yes, he claims it was a "few hundred" less than a loaded Accord or Camry. With the guy who spent $4,750 more than I did for a new Camry, (see the Milan vs Camry room). I have to believe it! Ever think maybe, just maybe you may be wrong? :surprise:

jeffyscott

Yes only about 5% of deaths are in rear crashes, compared to 54% in frontal, and 42% in side,

death rates

tamu2002

I seriously considered the Focus as well. It would've been a good option. It's a great value. I think Edmunds gave it the lowest true-cost-to-own award or something.

scape2

At a party I ran into a guy about 60 years old. He owns 4 pizza resturants. Has owned them for over 20 years he said. Want to know what kind of cars he uses for delivery?.. Fords!@ Ford Focus and Escorts! This guy is no dummy. Plain and simple, cheap to buy, low cost of upkeep and RELIABILITY! Ha! Wonder why he doesn't buy Civic or Corolla??? Sure seems to go against what the media says.. :confuse: :shades:

meateater

Your 60 year old 'guy' probably has never owned (or thought of owning) an Asian car in his life. His idea of reliable could set a Honda owner off.

Maybe his pizza stinks and they don't deliver a lot of pies?

Most cars are reliable anyway with proper maintenance.

explorerx4

i hate those stats, but to keep the peace here on edmunds (idl....?), i won't say any more.

goodegg

Sure seems to go against what the media says..

I'm not the media, but I'll never buy another Ford. May not have to ever worry about it again considering Ford's downward spiral.

elroy5

Want to know what kind of cars he uses for delivery?.. Fords! Ford Focus and Escorts! This guy is no dummy. Plain and simple, cheap to buy, low cost of upkeep and RELIABILITY! Ha! Wonder why he doesn't buy Civic or Corolla???

Yes, but HE doesn't have to drive them. I'm sure his personal car is not an Escort.

thesniper

"Hey, if he's happy, good for him. We'll see if he stays happy in 4-5 years. The odds are not neccesarily with him."

Well, you're the only one not happy about others spending extra for a Honda or Toyota! It could be jealousy... Ford is sinking.

thesniper

"At a party I ran into a guy about 60 years old. He owns 4 pizza resturants. Has owned them for over 20 years he said. Want to know what kind of cars he uses for delivery?.. Fords! Ford Focus and Escorts! This guy is no dummy. Plain and simple, cheap to buy, low cost of upkeep and RELIABILITY! Ha! Wonder why he doesn't buy Civic or Corolla??? Sure seems to go against what the media says.."

You could work for him and I'll give you a big tip when you deliver my pizza... but then again not... your fusion will probably leave you stranded and the pizza will not get to me hot.

lweiss

There may be other factors for the Pizza business- he probably gets the Focus models very cheaply and/or has a great dealer that he has worked with for years that minimizes his maintenance issues. I had a neighbor that owned a big plumbing business and buys at least 20-30 pickup trucks a year- always uses Chevy models and I asked him why and he mentioned that he gets them for great prices (less than $18K for a basic Chevy Silverado) and has dealt with the same Chevy dealer for buying and maintaining them. And he has trucks in his fleet that go over 200K routinely. And there are always many people (maybe rednecks?haha) that love buying old pickup trucks and keeping them for even longer periods of time.

thegraduate

GOOD LORD! You seem to be more biased than the media you preach so loudly about. Are you ever going to give the media a rest? I watched the nightly news two nights in a row. Guess what... NO MENTION OF FORD or HONDA or TOYOTA.

Chill out on the "media" mumbo-jumbo. Do you think we really didn't land on the moon too, or is that a conspiracy against Ford somehow too?

I'm sorry, but it just seems to be the same song and dance for weeks and months; the media hates Ford, the media lies about Ford...

I stuggle to figure out a couple of things:

First of all, WHO CARES what the media says about your car if it obviously not objective? If they say it, it is somone's opinion, just like mine, backy's, scape's, elroy's, etc...

Second of all, HOW OFTEN do you hear bad things on the media about how "bad" Ford is? The last story I've heard in the media was a positive story about the Ford Escape Hybrid. I haven't heard Honda in the news lately, and the last story I've heard out of the media about Toyota was about its RECALLS. Does that sound biased? Not to me.

If you count car magazines as media (they are soft media) then you are going to continue to buy the conspiracy theory I'm afraid, but guess what...the writers in that magazine have opinions too. They tend to lean towards performance, gadgetry, interior quality/beauty, innovtive-ness (as seen in Car and Driver car and truck of the year, Civic (which offers a high-performance model and a hybrid)and Ridgeline(which has an integrated trunk in the bed)) while giving less emphasis on value for the dollar, where the Hyundai and Ford shine with their feature list and list price.

The media should play 6th or 7th fiddle when buying a car, falling behind 1st through 5th, your senses.

louiswei

Actually the media (at least the auto media) has given positive remarks on the recent Hyundai new entries such as Sonata, Azera and Santa fe. The only obstacle now Hyundai needs to overcome is consumers' perception. They dug a hole and buried themselves in several years ago with some horrible cars with bad reliability and quality. Seems to me that they are digging themselves out slowly but half of its body is underground. They'll eventually have the same reputation as the Honda and Toyota once the whole body is cleared. Nobody put them into this situation but themselves so they should just suck it up and take it one step at a time.

I personally think Hyundai is on the right track. However, I am worried that Korean's over-competitive nature might come back and bite them in the future. I still remember that stem cell research fraud happened in Korea not long ago...

tamu2002

Everyone is entitled to his opinions. No need for the excessive sarcasm and personal insults. That doesn't lend much credibility to what you have to say. Let's be civil and have a pleasant debate please.

booyahcramer

Everyone is entitled to his opinions. No need for the excessive sarcasm and personal insults. That doesn't lend much credibility to what you have to say. Let's be civil and have a pleasant debate please.

What fun is that? Pleasant debate? Huh?

Especially since EVERYBODY is biased about these cars anyway, and their posts lean toward their preferences. That's just human nature bro.

kdhspyder

Anecdotal at best ..

One client buys 10-15 Corolla's a year( he has 50 on the road at any one time ) for his pharmacy deliveries while another buys 20 Scion xB's for his printing business.

scottl

I hate to say this, but this forum is the equivalent of people in 1970 arguing the merits of the Ford Galaxy vs. Chevy Impala vs. Dodge Monaco.

If you are truly interested in saving money, buy used. If you are truly interested in safety, get a Suburban. If you are truly interested in performance, get a performance car (may I suggest a Mazdaspeed6?). If you are truly interested in gas mileage, get a Prius.

Most people on here are laughably biased toward whatever they are driving. It reminds me of my father, who would never buy anything but GM, arguing with my uncle, who would only buy Ford. With dozens of cars to choose from, you have to keep an open mind. Toyota has in the past, and continues to make, lemons. Same with Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, VW, Audi and yes, GM, Ford and Chrysler.

mfletou1

Well then everybody in the Accord prices paid forums are lying, bottom line. I don't know, maybe you live in Alaska or Hawaii or something. A very rural area? Otherwise, you're just not looking very hard. Now, a loaded Camry is going to be more, sure.

Have you ever driven a car with serious torque steer? Do you think both Car and Driver and Motor Trend were lying when they say the Impala SS has a problem?

I personally wouldn't ever pay $19k for a Civic. But then I wouldn't pay 15 for one either. I don't want a Civic.

As for what I paid for my Camry, well, tell you what...when you can drive your car solo in the HOV lane in my metro area, when your car gets 38 mpg, when your car has standard bluetooth, then we can talk about whether my Camry was worth the price premium or not. See, different people value different things. Time is very important to me personally. I have a long commute. The ability to drive in the HOV lane by myself saves me over an hour a day. The fact that my car gets 12 mpg better than my last car on that trip is just gravy. The fact that its smooth, powerful and has features like bluetooth that other cars don't at that price is more like cake.

And, I've got no reason to question the reliability of the product, or, more importantly, whether or not the manufacturer will stand behind it. (Save me the "ooo--better hope your transmission works" crap, its a resolved issue on the 07 Camry and my car has a CVT anyway) I think Ford midsizes are probably ahead of GM's in terms of quality, but the only thing we can go on is past performance, and the record of GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda speaks for itself.

scape2

"Yes, but HE doesn't have to drive them. I'm sure his personal car is not an Escort."

Wow! did I spin up some Honda/Toyota owners or what?? No his car is a BMW by the way . I would rank this guy as being pretty business savy. I'm sure he has done his homework and cost/analysis of owning/leasing whichever vehicles for his business. If the Fords were so unreliable and breakdown all the time (according to some Honda/Toyota owners) don't you think it would cost him money in sales? and he would then switch to another car brand? Hmm...
The fact is: Consumers are getting smarter everyday.. Not needing to spend the extra $$ for a preceived reliability advantage.. :shades:

beantown

(Save me the "ooo--better hope your transmission works" crap, its a resolved issue on the 07 Camry and my car has a CVT anyway)

True, the CVT you have is fine so far; but the '07 Camry tranny issues have not been resolved. They fixed the snap ring issue which happened early on some of the V6s, but they have no fix in sight for the V6 rpm flare issue or the hesitation issues in the 4 cylinder models. As a lifetime toyota customer to this point, I find these problems very troubling.

jeffyscott

...your fusion will probably leave you stranded...

Do you really believe this? I really would like to know if this is the way Honda/Toyota fans think. Do you really think owners of other cars are stranded on a regular basis?

badgerfan

Let see, my 1990 Taurus left me stranded once in ten years and 98K miles (a starter), my 2000 Taurus, never in 61K miles and counting.

Our 1985 Dodge Caravan, once in 12 years and 85K miles(a minor shifter linkage issue). Our 1996 Dodge Caravan, never in 89K miles, our 2006 Grand Caravan, never in 1500 miles-it is obviously nearly new.

I am not counting batteries here as those are consumable items.

Yep, those Detroit wheels will leave you stranded all the time!

thesniper

...and do you believe the media conspiracy theory?

jeffyscott

...and do you believe the media conspiracy theory?

No, but how about answering the questions instead of questioning the asker .

thesniper

...and do you believe the media conspiracy theory?

No, but how about answering the questions instead of questioning the asker

No, I don't believe it either. It's just plain sarcasm on my part.

elroy5

I really would like to know if this is the way Honda/Toyota fans think.

I certainly don't think all domestic brands leave people stranded on the highway. I have owned many GM, Ford, Chrysler products, and have never been left stranded by any of them (dead battery doesn't count).

The simple way of saying how I feel about domestic brands is, they seem to age much faster than my Honda did. The suspensions would get sloppy, the steering would get loose, interior parts would start falling apart, and rattles and squeaks would start to add up. Even after 12 years, and 140,000 miles, my Accord still felt solid, and had very few rattles, even with a stiffer suspension, than the domestic cars. I always enjoyed driving my Accord. After 5 years, driving a domestic car was no longer a pleasant experience. I am on my second Accord now, and I will be a Honda customer, until the day I own one that doesn't measure up to the high standards I've grown accustomed to. Many say the domestic cars have narrowed the quality gap, but I have driven some 06 Chevys, and IMO they still have a long way to go.

kdhspyder

It's a lot different now but when I owned 3 Chrysler products and 2 GM products in the 80's ... Yes they did leave me stranded on the side of the road, in the middle of intersections, in my driveway for a total of maybe 20 different occasions.

Based on these experiences I was 'pushed' to Honda or Toyota since which time I've spent less then $400 on unexpected expenses in 17 years and well over 500,000 miles... and never at any time left with a non-performing vehicle.

I do trust that the detroiters have come to be more competitive since then in terms of reliability but I and my children were lost to them forever back in the 80's.

kdshapiro

On my Toyota I've spent less than $3000 dollars in unexpected repairs in 80K miles. Some people never have to repair but have a car that is waiting to fall apart. My car fell apart and I had to repair.

jeffyscott

On my Toyota I've spent less than $3000 dollars in unexpected repairs in 80K miles.

You don't actually think that is good, do you? :surprise: :lemon:

In the first 80,000 miles with a Ford Windstar, I spent a total of $1800 on all repairs and maintenance.

For an '86 Horizon, in 12 years and 120K miles we spent about $3500 on all repairs and maintenance for the entire time.

Had an 89 Plymouth Voyager in the first 80,000 miles we spent about $3000 and again that is all repairs and maintenance.

jeffyscott

...I was 'pushed' to Honda or Toyota since which time I've spent less then $400 on unexpected expenses in 17 years and well over 500,000 miles... and never at any time left with a non-performing vehicle.

That does not really mean a lot without knowing how long you kept the cars. I mean if you trade in at 80,000 miles or something like that, this is no great feat.

elroy5

I spent less than $600 on repairs, for 12 years and 140,000 miles with ONE 92 Honda Accord EX. And that is part of the reason I have an 03 Accord now.

As far as the cost of maintenance, I have spent less than most. I do all of the maintenance myself (Oil 3,000 miles, Air filter when ever I think it's dirty enough, I changed the drive belts one time, the coolant twice, brake fluid once, and the transmission fluid twice).

scape2

"...your fusion will probably leave you stranded...

Do you really believe this? I really would like to know if this is the way Honda/Toyota fans think. Do you really think owners of other cars are stranded on a regular basis?

Yes, this is the way many Honda/Toyota owners think. Its called being brainwashed by the media. When I bought my 1997 Ford Ranger I had never ending comments like these. 110,000 trouble free miles later with my Ranger and it never left me stranded, neither did my Escape with 75,000 miles, and I highly doubt my Fusion will either. I didn't fall into this brainwashing box. I have owned an Accord, it had its issues, small but it wasn't perfect. It was very boring to drive and had no feel, very plain, very predictable, very nothing.

What many Honda/Toyota owners fail to do is see the facts. Fact is reliability has become virtually a non-factor in vehicles. Its up and pretty even across the board and getting tighter by the year in all models. Quality/fit/finish is the same way. Sad part is some just can't see past this. :shades:

scape2

"On my Toyota I've spent less than $3000 dollars in unexpected repairs in 80K miles. Some people never have to repair but have a car that is waiting to fall apart. My car fell apart and I had to repair"

You think this is good??? I had 75,000 miles on my Ford Escape. Total repairs done $175!! :confuse:

scape2

Sale at $14,777! not just one either.. This is vehicle that compares to an Accord VP.. someone got here for $16,300..
:shades:

lweiss

I trust Consumer Reports on this stuff. And I have subscribed for years and the subscribers fill in questionnaires on their experience with various brands and models. And sad to say that GM and Ford and D-C have not had the reliable brands for many years and still don't. Some exceptions of course, but the overall picture shows lots of catching up to do by the American 2.5.

tamu2002

"...This is vehicle that compares to an Accord VP.. someone got here for $16,300.."

That would be me Is this an 07 model or 06? I bet this is a barebone base model. A month ago I could've gotten one for $15K anyway. Once you add side airbags and ABS and the convenience package )auto windows and locks) which cost about $1500, you're essentially $16K. For several hundred bucks more, the Accord is still a better value to me. I do like the Fusion's style a lot though.

BTW, is this Evergreen Ford that's doing this?

kdshapiro

No it's not good and I was defintely implying it wasn't. But I had the car for a long time, although low mileage. My experience is peoples experience with cars vary. Cars with above average reliability can have a lot of money in repairs, cars with average or below average reliability may not have to be repaired as often or have expensive repairs. And it did strand me once...when the battery went.

Sometimes it's the luck (or unluck) of draw as to who gets what. One thing is certain, getting a car with average reliability or above reliability and maintaining the car minimally according to manufacturers recommendations will increase the chances that repairs won't be needed the longer the car rides the streets.

backy

Which Fusion would it be that doesn't have power windows and locks standard? But unlikely a Fusion S selling below $15k has the ABS and side bags package.

peanutbutter

New to this site, have a 98 Caravan which, knock on my wooden head, has broken down only
once when the belt tensioner failed. Still has original everything, i.e. alternator, transmission etc.
Only one new battery set of tires and shocks/struts in 113,000 miles. Am getting 23MPG highway at 65 or less, try to keep tach at or below 2000rpm. Am now interviewing new
smaller vehicles, Camry, Sonata etc.

bhmr59

As far as the cost of maintenance, I have spent less than most. I do all of the maintenance myself (Oil 3,000 miles, Air filter when ever I think it's dirty enough, I changed the drive belts one time, the coolant twice, brake fluid once, and the transmission fluid twice).As far as the cost of maintenance, I have spent less than most. I do all of the maintenance myself (Oil 3,000 miles, Air filter when ever I think it's dirty enough, I changed the drive belts one time, the coolant twice, brake fluid once, and the transmission fluid twice).

It's good that you can do all this work yourself. But for those of us who don't have your talents and/or equipment the cost will be quite a bit higher. That $600 could easily be $1500 or more. Even at $1500, that's still good. (I assume, of course, that you have replaced the tires)

elroy5

Its called being brainwashed by the media.

The media has nothing to do with it. I was brainwashed by a car for 12 years, and it was very effective. Until I bought my first Accord, I thought all cars were made about the same, like crap. Sure the new Fords are better than the Fords of 10 years ago, but then so are the Hondas. Ford and Chevy still have a long way to go.

cajuncycler

How quickly we forget what junk Hondas were too in the early years. Tiny, cramped and I still remember them having to crush thousands of them when they took them off the boat in the 70's because it cost too much to ship replacements for the defective parts over here and was too expensive to send back to Japan. Those were the first Hondas on these shores, tiny little Civic. Remember them? Point is Honda learned. The first Hyundai Excels that came here were also junk. The same way I razz the safety of current Hondas these things had dashboards that splintered to pieces in a crash like they were made of styrene plastic. But, today I just saw one of those early Toyota Tercel clones and it was still on the road, and still looked pretty good. So the point is Hyundai also learned. I wish I could say the same for Daewoo and Opel. All these companies earned the sub-standard quality award at one point. GM with the Vega and Astra, Ford with the Pinto, AMC with darn near the entire line. Chrysler with early 70s junk before they wised up with the reinvention of wheel with the K cars. I look at my Sonata and I can't see any resemblance with the Excel of the 80s. I do see a strong resemblance between it and the current Toyotas and Hondas in build quality. Somebody paid attention.

elroy5

It's good that you can do all this work yourself. But for those of us who don't have your talents and/or equipment the cost will be quite a bit higher. That $600 could easily be $1500 or more. Even at $1500, that's still good. (I assume, of course, that you have replaced the tires)

Oh, I forgot about tires, a timing belt, and a battery. What amazed me, is how long the belts lasted on the car (at least 10 years). The car still had all the original hoses, and looked like they could go another 10 years (high quality stuff). My Chevy truck however was just 6 years old, and the vacuum hoses were dry rotted to the point of crumbling in your fingers (very cheap stuff). Do you realize how many vacuum hoses there are under the average hood nowadays. For those of you who own Chevys, have you checked your hoses lately? When I see the Autozone commercial where they tell you to change your belts every two years, I have to laugh (it all depends on what brand of vehicle you have) Honda belts and hoses last much longer.

cajuncycler

You know Elroy I totally agree with you. For decades Detroit has led us to believe that 100,000 miles was the limit of any car. For years if the Detroit iron had 70,000 miles or more on it the value of said car was like penny stock. Here came foreign cars like the VW Beetle what offered alternatives, not perfect ones but alternatives. Detroit never took the beetle seriously. Then over came the Asians. Toyota, Datsun, Mazda. Built like swiss watches compared to what sat in Domestic show rooms. Suddenly we noticed that the suspension was sloppy, the steering loose, the horrible handling. Detroit has fought it vigorously but finally wised up and are now playing catch up. The place they need the most improvement is engine technology. You shouldn't have to buy a Cadillac to get a quality engine. You shouldn't have to pay $50,000 for an SUV or or a Vette to get sophisticated engine technology, quality suspension or the ability to stop in a reasonable distance. If anything The Asian and the European markets have begun putting the American manufacturers on notice that either they shape up or they are doomed with the likes of Packard and Studebaker.

lonewalden

As far as quality/dependability goes todays domestics are leagues better than their predecessors. I remember looking at Consumer Reports back in the early 90's. Looked at one while I was in Wal-mart last week. The domestics have certainly improved since then. I see alot more red dots or half red dots today. Also JD Powers tells much the same story. The quality gap between the domestics and imports is closing to a negligable amount.

I dont think any brand today will leave you stranded on the roadside (there are always a few exceptions/lemons within brands :lemon: ). My current car is a 03 Ford Focus and it has had zero problems with 52K miles.

Having said that I think the domestics still do have other issues they need to address. My Ford Focus for one lets in alot of road noise and has a cheap sounding plastic dash (although my friends civic has a hard plastic dash it is of a much higher quality and sounds alot more "solid"). To me this is the biggest difference between domestic and import. For the most part the imports are still the benchmark for interiors. There are exceptions of course. Last month I looked at a Fusion and was impressed by the "soft" padding and well laid out dashboard.

tamu2002

I'm pretty sure the Fusion S model doesn't have power windows standard. Cruise control might be part of the convenience package too.

backy

I have driven a stripped 2006 Fusion S, no options, and power windows and locks were standard. I am pretty sure cruise was also. I think you are confusing the Fusion with the Accord VP, which doesn't have all the power accessories standard. Most mid-sized cars do have these features standard these days.