Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

kdhspyder

What do you mean? The Sonata will always cost $5K less than comparably equipped Accords and Camrys.

You know this for a fact?

They know more about technology and automation than the rest put together

You know this for a fact also? If so, did they just learn it last night because until the last two years their worldclass knowledge didn't produce any spectacular vehicles. In fact their worldclass robotic knowhow produced some of the worst in this market. what an amazing moment it must have been when they awoke one morning smarter and better than everybody else when just the night before they were on the bottom of the heap.

More likely it was just a decision to stop screwing around and do the job right and stop sending junk over to the US.

If the sonata costs the American buyer $5K less than the equivalent Japanese model and the Corolla and Civic continue to fight the Sonata tooth and nail for the $18K buyer, then all is good with the world in the eyes of Toyota and Honda and Nissan.

m1miata

I guess it is a case of driving them both to see. Try an Accord, even with a four cylinder. Then drive a Sonata with a four and a six to see how you like it. How is the steering, any strange noises going over bumps and dips, interior materials used on dash and seats, how is the back, any lumbar support, tilt and telescopic steering column and overall seating position as good, does the dealership look professional or cheesy, and if possible drive a used one.

Advantage Accord has is also the disadvantage. The car is going to change next year so it is not the latest rendition. The good is that the bugs are worked out. The bad is that any major change hits your value and possibly the way you see your new car as old in one year. So you must decide if this is a blessing or not. We all know Sonata and Camry will have a few little quirks being new. Do you want to venture into the new zone, or go for the safety of the known?

As far as looks go, the Azera may be the only hope of escaping the Accord look. Sure, the Sonata is different, but by what margin. The whats to like is in the value though. Sort of like a Honda on the cheap. Like I said before, be sure to make a list and check everything. Be sure that what is important to you is the same as the great one.

Trying to find a different look is not too easy. The Fusion looks pretty fresh. Now I see the 2007 Sentra is moving towards that look. Sometimes I consider getting back to GM after all these years apart. Why you ask? They have something a little different like Cadillac (used) and the Monte Carlo (yeah i know it is different) and well even the LaCrosse which looks unique. I guess an Azera or a Camry would look fresh enough. What was Toyota thinking on that funny nose on the front? I must say, looks wise the awesome car is the Tiburon. Would my back like getting in and out of that thing every day -- possibly not. I may want a little larger car anyway. But the look is so cool. Only dislike is the tall doors. Everyone has those.

Anyone considering the Ford Five Hundred? Not a fancy look, a little bit of a sleeper, but it has some good attributes. And then there is the Altima, which still looks cool today. I think it has a style advantage over the other Japan and Korean makes. Well sort of a Passat rip-off.
-Loren

bobad

OK all you Sonata lovers. Why don't you just admit that you were too much of a TIGHTWAD to buy a car with a PROVEN TRACK RECORD. So you bought the cheap imitation, hoping that it doesn't bite you later. I can't believe that with all the Hyundai preaching you have done, you still haven't convinced yourself.

If I didn't know better, I would swear those words sounded like sour grapes.

I'm only keeping my Sonata for 10 years and 150K miles, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof. The car has already completed 5% of its long journey. I have to admit I feel smarter and smarter with every trouble-free month that goes by. I don't need to convince anyone about anything. I try my best to be logical about cars, not emotional. And I certainly don't need to pay $5K extra for a track record. The only track record that matters to me is my own. My last 2 choices were excellent, and I think this one is just as good. My last car was 11 years old, and did not spend a day in the shop. My current truck is 14 years old, and besides the air conditioner, hasn't spent a day in the shop.

tinydog1

Proven track record, lets see, my sister has a 2002 4Runner and 2003 Tundra, both of which have left her stranded in the middle of nowhere, both had major trans problems one covered under warranty the other cost her $3k. Now that's proven relaiability. Have 2 friends with 2002 V6 Sonata's both over 100K miles and both have never been in the shop other than for maintenance. I owned a 2001 elantra, drove it 40K miles, no problems, 2003 Sonata LX, 45k miles, no problems, 2004 XG350L 30K miles no problems, now own a 2006 Azera Limited and 2006 Sonata LX, and not a single issue with either. I learned a while back that Hyundai builds great, reliable cars. As for being a tightwad, no, I could purchase just about any car I liked, but why? A car, no matter what brand, is a loss. So I made the smart choice, and can laugh all the way to the bank with the money saved. Anyway, I have always believed the old saying an ounce of pretention is worth a pound of manure.

m1miata

The word "feel" is the operative word here. It may take another couple of years of success in the surveys for reliability for people to "feel" better about Hyundai. It does not mean that the car is better, the same or worse. Simply means what this person is saying it true. The "feel" better buying the Camry. Well an Altima, or a Fusion may be equally as good. Heck, the best feeling should be towards the Accord. Has a stellar record for reliable cars, and the present model in in its last year run. New Accord for 2008.

Hyundai, to their credit, offers the longest warranty, and has a good near term reliability survey records. Personally, I would watch the Sonata and the competition forums to see what people are saying about their new car. Sure, there will be some bull. Maybe some posting under several different names will stink up the boards. But if you see many people saying the same thing about an issue with the car, and can even back it up by going to other boards, it is possible you found a gremlin in the workings of the car. My guess is that the Sonata may have some and equally so the Camry may have some new car gremlins in there to take care of. Some may be thinking that the Hyundai is not a good long term car. Well there are people which say they loved their long term experience with their Hyundai. That said, the more years you go back in time, the less perfect the cars looked. Like the Japanese, they listened to the customers, researched, and took care of problems as time went by. The long warranty is Testament to that. You are not sure about us, so we are going to be with you with a warranty to give some assurance to your buy.

If nothing else, try the different cars. Close the doors to hear the sound as they close, roll the electric windows up and down to hear them, see if the glove box door meets up tight and has no slack when it shuts, try the knobs to see if they feel solid or like toys parts, drive over rough roads, and at freeway speeds to see how it handles the wind.

One problem is too chatty salespeople. You can not listen to the car. My test drive in the Mustang was a little that way. Something about the seating position, even with the height adjustments did not feel right. Sort of like the dash was too high, and the car felt big for some reason. It is a little more so that the last model, but not that much. That wonderful instrument cluster, they rave about, wasn't too cool by me. Maybe I need another test run, but the car seem cheaper inside than before for plastics ( i know i am a minority opinion on that ) and it feel all that snappy to drive. It was the V6, but it got good reviews. Maybe another run is needed, with more attention to car, and less talk by the salesperson?
-Loren

driverdm

Hyundai may catch Daimler in sales but I think Daimler's profits will be much higher. THose upper end Mercedes have to be more profit per car than some of us make in a year's salary. Just think, over the last couple years Mercedes has shared more paltforms and more components (the CLS is basically a different take on an E-Class)making the cost for these cars less but prices have only gone north.

Back to the subject though. I saw a rendering of the next Mazda6. My goodness that car is beautiful. Maxda's design is one of the best in the market right now.

I am also very interested in seeing the new Altima. They gave it a lot of styling cues from the 350Z which is real sweet. The 6 and Altima may not be the most premium or the best value but they are going to be the lookers again and probably the best performers. Nissan has publicly stated it set out to make the best front wheel drive car on the market with the new Alti. THe Mazda6 already holds that crown. Should be fun over the next twelve months.

driverdm

"I just don't get how car buyers allow themselves to be "conditioned" by clever advertising and "reputation" that they somehow must pay more. A good car is a good car, regardless of the badge or the price. Is a car your parents give you worthless? Will a car you pay $500K for be any more reliable than one you pay $20K for?"

Oh Sonata church has started mass again. First, the obvious, you can not logically compare a Sonata to anything greater than its segment, i.e. BMW, Lex, Merc, several others. A car is not a car. For example an Acura TL and an Infiniti G35, same price range, two very diferent cars. Not all the clever advertising is ment for deception. Mazdas are indeed fun to drive. I have heard that unanimously. VW do have excellent attention to detail and high quality (not to be confused with reliability). The Accord, is the Accord. Aside from cost, you'd find few that would argue it isn't the best car in its segment. Sometimes marketing does follow reality. Not all buyers are conditioned. Many make enough money where price is NOT there cheif concern. And that my friends, is perfectly OK.

nj2pa2nc

You can call me a tightwad but I am proud of it. You seem to be a die-hard honda fan and nothing will change you. If that is what you like good for you. My parents Honda Accord must really have been a Sonata since it spent alot of time at the service department They had nothing but problems with it. They got rid of it. Right now we own a 05 civic ex-se and a 05 elantra gt. We prefer the elantra, better ride. more for your money. So you stick with your hondas and we will buy hyundai's but do not knock Hyundai owner and I will not knock you. Do you own a acura?Have you ever even tried a hyundai.

backy

You will learn too, the hard way.

If by that you mean putting down my hard-earned money to learn what it is like to own Hyundais and see how reliable they are, then that is true. I have learned through my ownership experience that Hyundais are as reliable as any other makes I have owned over the past 30 years--including Hondas, Toyotas, Mazdas, and Nissans. I could easily afford to buy more expensive cars. But I'd rather use that extra money for other things than a depreciating lump of metal and plastic. The Sonata offers all I need in a mid-sized car. Why pay a lot more and in some ways get less?

imidazol97

>Accord and Camry buyers get exactly what they pay for, PROVEN RELIABILITY

Do you mean the 03 Accord buyers got all that proven reliability? The popping welds on body twisting into driveways, the hard seat, the steering wander, the transmission problems in many Hondas, the steering leads (did that require engine cradle readjustments?), and all the ones from the discussions I've forgotten?

I have Enron stock to offer you if you want historic reliability and assume it applies to the future! :P

People who are test driving and looking at other cars, e.g., Sonata, are going to end up with a choice better suited to their purpose. Lemmings get their Enron stock, Worldcom, Avalons, transmission shift lags, etc., based on extrapolating past quality to future performance.

imidazol97

>another couple of years of success in the surveys for reliability for people to "feel" better about Hyundai.

I agree.

>Maybe I need another test run,

I believe we rate a different vehicle based on what we have been accustomed to. Repeat tests will overcome that 'lack of familiarity' in placements, seat shapes, different textures, etc., and lets us actually focus on the car. Dealers in this area always have let us test drive alone in the car. Often offering to let us take it home and bring it back after several hours.

goodegg

Your pro-Hyundai message is so much easier to accept than all these others that think their anecdotes about their unreliable Toyota and Honda pieces of junk should sway one into absolutely accepting Hyundai as the best car in the world. My attitude towards Hyundai has definely changed since visiting Edmunds (does Hyundai own Edmunds?),not from the lunatics, but from reasoned posits others (like you) present. Thanks. My daughter turns 16 soon and Hyundai products will make the cut when I start looking for her first car.

bobad

Oh Sonata church has started mass again.

Sonata church? You are the one that mentioned Sonata, not me!

I'm beginning to notice something here. If you study this debate closely, there's not as much disagreement as it may appear. Most of the disagreement boils down to HOW WE PERCEIVE MIDSIZED CARS. I don't think you have all the bickering among owners of other genres of car, because the purposes of those cars are better defined.

I think the main sticking point is, "Are the midsize cars commuter cars that double as a road car, or road cars that double as commuter cars?"

I have no illusions that my Sonata (or any midsized car) is anything more than a commuter car. In my opinion, they are all too claustrophobic and uncomfortable to take on long trips. If I traveled a lot by car, I would bump it up to the next size.

Now others will disagree, and say that their (insert badge here)is comfortable enough for traveling. So they stuff things like NAV, climate control, and all those large car amenities into what amounts to a comfortable commuter car. That's fine for them, but they need to give us commuters a break.

So before we argue, we should think about about how differently everyone perceives midsize cars.

Me? As a luxury highway cruiser, my Sonata sucks. As a commuter car, it's almost unbeatable.

louiswei

The Fusion looks pretty fresh. Now I see the 2007 Sentra is moving towards that look.

The reason you see that the new Sentra is looking like a Fusion is because the front end of the Fusion is a copy of the G35.




Looks like G35's front end has become the family resemblance of the new Nissans (Maxima, Altima and Sentra).

2007 Nissan Maxima:


2007 Nissan Altima:


2007 Nissan Sentra:

louiswei

nj2pa2nc, could you possibly elaborate what kind of problems did your parents have with their Accord? Thank you.

nj2pa2nc

It would not start. They would have to have it towed to the dealer. They had the battery changed and some of the wiring. It would work for awhile and then it would not start. Their power seats caused that. a short. Their a/c did not work. Their power windows stopped working.All of this occured before the car had 3,000 miles.Maybe there car was a fluke but having a Honda does not mean it won't be trouble-free. we had a 1988 Hyundai Excel that between us and our son-in-law put over 200,000 miles before it got totaled in a accident. It had the original motor and clutch. Besides the usual maintenance it was trouble-free.

choe13

some pics of this sonata on roids



Hyundai or not immaculate interior




look at those headlights


rwd and if its anything like the sonata, azera but better, this will be an amazing affordable luxury car. Thousand cheaper than a bmw5 and even acura tl

ace35

Man that car seems promising even when in disguise. The interior is stunning and first class looking, kinda reminds me of the current Q45. Hopefully there will be an optional NAV system. What an aggresive looking front clip, mayb it'll be toned down a little once out of disguise, as this is just a development mule. But very very nice for hyundai. I will deffinatly be watching this one for sure

joe97

I think I can speak for most here we recongize the benchmark set by Honda and Toyota. On the same token, however, it is evident the quality/relibality gap is much smaller now, and that goes out for almost all automakers, especially in the heavily-contested midsize family sedans. There's no perfection out there, and that applies to all cars.

I could only suggest, please, tone-down on your excessive igorance, hating, bashing. Your display contributes nothing substantial to the spirited discussion.

seniorjose

Careful...the long term warranty was brought out by Hyundai as a last ditch effort to stay in business because nobody would buy their poor quality autos and they were absolutely desperate. They are probably not a bad set of wheels for throwaway autos, they have no faith in their own autos still...their "save the company" warranty is still with us.

ontop

it is evident the quality/relibality gap is much smaller now

This is true. Seems all auto companies are fishing from the same pond as to parts, assembly methods, etc.

I say let the guy bash who/how he wants. This is blog-o-town. Don't read his posts. I kinda enjoy the spice.

bhmr59

You're rigtht seniorjose, that's why Hyundai out sells Honda by over 350,000 units per year.

backy

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and applaud you for your open-mindedness. The thing I love about this class of cars is that there are so many great choices. It used to be the Accord and Camry far above everyone else. Now those cars are still arguably at the top of the class, but there are many other competitive cars that in some ways top even the Camcord. I just encourage the prospective buyers of mid-sized cars to not go for the easy, automatic decision of a Camcord, but take some time to check out some of the other cars in this class, like the Mazda6, Fulan, '07 Altima, Legacy, Sonata, and even the Malibu. You might be pleasantly surprised and save some $$$$ too.

Good luck on your car shopping for your daughter. She is very lucky if she will be getting a brand-new car when she turns 16.

kdhspyder

Honda is an engine company that occasionally wraps these engines in autos in certain markets.

thesniper

"This is just too exagerated IMO. Even if the plant was absolutely labor free it wouldn't save $5000. They still have to pay for steel, rubber, glass, robots, welding wire, lights, power, gas, etc. There is no way to save that much money when all these cost the same for everyone."

$5,000 savings per car??? The plant has a maximum capacity of 300,000 cars per year. Let's say this plant only makes Sonata, that is $1.5 billion savings in one year at full capacity. With this savings, I bet Toyota will replace all their plants similar to that of Hyundai considering it only cost $1.1 billion.

C'mon KD, do you believe another sermon from one of the priests from Hyundai congregation?

driverdm

Bobad, I hadn't been on in a long while so you know I had to find a nice way to say I missed you all. Sonata church seemed like a good way to put it. Anyhow, as usual I agree but disagree.

I agree that many people see some of these midsive cars as commuter cars that double as a road car and some road cars that double as commuter cars. But, I also believe that some of the cars in this segment cater to a driving niche that makes what peopel think about the car follow reality. A Mazda6 (I own one) is not especially great for the trip from Massachusetts to Washington D.C. But in the corners and rally ways we call highways up here it is a delight to drive. Almost everyone who has driven one, though they might not like it, agrees that it is a performer unlike any other in the segment with very good looks as an added bonus. Many call the Camry, Accord, and Sonata bland. I have never heard anything but praise for the Mazda's styling, save for some 6 owners (myself included) that believe the freshened front end looks worse than the older version.

pat

Let's reel in the personal comments and the religious references and concentrate on the CARS, not each other.

driverdm

choe13, the Equis is an interesting experiment but I think it won't work, though I might buy one.

See, I think your normal luxury buyer has thrown particality out the window long time ago. They are looking for something with prestige, status, and an admiration factor. A Hyundai, with prestige to compete with a Lexus??? :confuse: Price largely won't matter.

There is a slight market for it though. Entry on this car will probably be lower than the higher end Azera's. Now people, like me, will cross shop this car with other top end midsizers aka Camry, Accord, Azera, Passat, etc. I like the idea of a RWD, semi-luxury car, with a nice engine (has to be more than the Azera standard engine or they will beaten by the press like pro punching bag). Probably not what Hyundai had in mind but too bad for them, good for me.

m1miata

OK, now the proof. What is documented as wrong with the Hyundai cars? Which survey are you using? Name the parts failing and in what numbers. We will quietly wait for an answer. :blush:
-Loren

thesniper

"But I'd rather use that extra money for other things than a depreciating lump of metal and plastic."

...and you're willing to spend that bigger portion of your money into something that depreciates faster than its competitors?