Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

allmet33

2004 TL, which remain unchanged except a few cosmetic differences.

First of all, I thought you said you were technically competent! :P

Okay, now I see YOUR problem, Louis...YOU DON'T READ!!! Go back and look at my postings. I said a 2006 Acura TL, not a 2004. For your info, there was a huge change as the 2004 was packing 270 hp under the hood and the 2006 TL only has 258 hp. However, as the Captain pointed out...the 2006 TL has close to the same power-to-weight ratio as the Azera.

Next time you post something, please check it's relevance to the topic. A 2004 TL has absolutely no relevance to any posting in this thread.

allmet33

And what does this have to do with beating a TL??? Redline on the Azera starts at 6500!!!! I have run the Azera up to 90 in 3rd gear with no problem. Now...is this something I would do reguarly...no, not at all. So there's no need to follow behind with a wheelbarrow.

pat

The TL is not a large sedan and does not belong here.

Further, you all are clearly talking about street racing which is illegal, and therefore not something we are going to continue to discuss.

This discussion has just about run its course, it seems to me. It would be helpful if those who would like it to continue could come up with something fresh to discuss. There are a whole bunch of vehicles listed at the top of the discussion which we never talk about.

I am very tired of everything revolving around the Azera and it's obvious I am not alone. Let's try a moratorium on it and see if there is anything to talk about. Then we'll know if this conversation is worth continuing.

No more Azera for at least 48 hours - please!

thegraduate

First of all, I thought you said you were technically competent!

Okay, now I see YOUR problem, Louis...YOU DON'T READ!!! Go back and look at my postings. I said a 2006 Acura TL, not a 2004. For your info, there was a huge change as the 2004 was packing 270 hp under the hood and the 2006 TL only has 258 hp. However, as the Captain pointed out...the 2006 TL has close to the same power-to-weight ratio as the Azera.

Allmet, he is technically competent, and you are wrong in your post here.

The 3.2 TL IS unchanged. The SAE horsepower test changed in 2006, resulting in cars' horsepower to change. The engine itself is identical to the two previous year models. If you'll notice, several other car models saw changes as well (for example, Toyota's Avalon going from 280 to 268, or Nissan's Maxima from 265 to 255. The engine didn't change, the rating system did.

I think you owe louiswei an apology. He stated nothing wrong. The engine is identical.

PS Pat: I brought up the other vehicles, not just the Acura, and I didn't mention the Azera!

I just got in from a road trip and didn't see your post until I had already posted my reply. I had 100 messages to read in this forum alone! You guys have been busy!

allmet33

Okay...Louis, I apologize about saying you were wrong about the TL being unchanged. I'm also sorry you don't believe my experience, but alas...it doesn't matter because I was there and I know what happened.

On that note, the issue is dead.

captain2

back in 05, and effective the 06 model year, the Soceity of Automotive Engineers (SAE) proposed and had adopted a standard by which the rated power of all engines would be comparable. The Japanese and I think Hyundai were all forced to rerate their engines to reflect not only the use of 87 octane fuel (if running regular was how the vehicle was to be sold) , but also things some minor accessory load (like PS pumps etc.when normally supplied) The 05 Avalon was rated at 280hp and took a 12hp hit in 06, the 05 Acura 270 to 258, the Maxima/Altima, Sonata etc all saw similar reductionsof something less than 5%. There were, however, no 'huge' hits taken in the HP depts. simply because the engines involved didn't change at all
That's all history now, but the 268hp 06 Avalon has the identical engine that's in the '280hp' 05 which incidentally is also the same engine that's in the ES350 that can be rated at 272hp only because it 'requires' 91 octane as opposed to the Avalon which suffers that 4 hp 'loss' with regular. And yes, that 3.2 liter Honda engine that we are not allowed to talk about, never did change, only the rating rules changed. There were, however, Avalon owners that somehow felt 'cheated' out of 12hp when in fact there is no power difference at all 2005 model vs. the later models.
I believe that it was Nissan with the 3.5 VQs that started all this - my wife's Altima 3.5 owners manual says something like 'for optimum performance 91+ octane is recommended' - my wife not being a speed demon (to say the least) is more concerned about 20 cents or so a gallon and has run it on 87 octane for nearly 100k now with no problems. So for all you HP freaks out there - there appears to be a rather quick way to an extra 5 hp or so (if the engine adjusts itself to the higher octane) - spend the 20 cents and run premium gas. Don't know whether a lousy 5 hp really makes that much of a difference at this level (250+ hp engines), but I percieve a very slight power increase, and zero FE difference when I treat my Avalon to 93 octane.
- just in case, anybody wanted to know why seemingly identical engines 'lost' some HP between 05 and 06 - they didn't.

dborth

when they get older and don't do the things they used to do

At 63, not all of us. I recently had a short drag race in my '07 Azera against a V8 Thunderbird convertible, I think a 2002 although not sure since they are no longer made. I found the T-Bird basic specs for that year at 3.9 V8 / 252hp/ 5-speed with a posted 0-60 @ 7.0

Dead even through 1st gear, (and I forgot to disengage esc) Going into 3rd gear I was half a length ahead. Given the street we were on it got a little dicey so I shut it off, although I don't think he would have caught me.

This is not intended to open a new can of worms, just sharing a personal experience.

captain2

does'nt surprise me,as the 3.8 V6 should be a lot more willing to rev, thereby picking the HP more quickly than the V8, perhaps the reason why you pick up the distances later. Pushrod engines will generally be relatively high on torque but low in HP simply because they cannot rev as freely (and quickly) as these newer OHC V6s. . And, BTW, I believe that the TBird you are talking about was based on the old Lincoln 'LS" RWD chassis at the time, and was therefore no lightweight!

ronsmith38

Amen! I have removed the watch on this forum, and will not put it back on unless the suggestion of Pat is followed.

tjc78

I was just reading that the Genesis coupe won't get the V-8 engine. That doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't you think that if anything the coupe would be marketed with the most available HP? Anyway, looking forward to seeing more info on this vehicle. I didn't really buy into it at first, but the more I read and think about it I believe Hyundai will have a moderate success on their hands. All the pieces seem to fit, hopefully FE will be similar to the Avalon and the Hyundai we are not allowed to mention for 41 more hours. Oh, and the price for the V6 nicely equipped around 35K please!

tjc78

The 3.9 is a DOHC cam design and if I am not mistaken it has Jaguar heritage and was a 10 best engine at one time.

ukraguy

Wow, it looks definitely better than the GS.

http://bobaedream.co.kr/board/data/data_view.php?code=national&No=89208&page=1&s- - elect=&content=&r_no=0&search_gubun=&s_pagescale=&search_day=&Answer=0

http://bobaedream.co.kr/board/data/data_view.php?code=national&No=89175&page=1&s- - elect=&content=&r_no=21&search_gubun=&s_pagescale=&search_day=&Answer=21

floridabob1

RE: 4303
Pictures look great!
Can anyone translate the text for specifications?

captain2

certainly OHC and except for displacement somewhat like the Northstar, a V8 'revver'. Don't recall that particular engine ever being the 'best' of anything, and always felt it to be a feeble effort although I could never figure out why Ford abandoned the RWD 'LS' especially when Caddy is doing what it was with the CTS/STS. Also don't think that having a Jaguar' heritage' means what it once did, Jaguar has been losing money and been controlled by Ford for too long.

louiswei

I'll take the GS over that any given day.

captain2

Did any of you Hyundai addicts out there notice the (plastic?) 'moonwood' in these Genesis pictures, saw it for the first time in a 06 Sonata I rented and thought it looked cheap even in that car -- surely Hyundai will find some real trees for what is 'supposed' to compete with higher end vehicles. Overall the car looks pretty good IMO and something I will need to shop when my Avalon 'needs' to be replaced, although I have a sneaking suspicion that the RWD will take its toll on FE, and I'm not going to want to pay for the extra gas. The 3.8 doesn't do all that well (FE wise) in that other car already - adding the direct injection, some extra HP, and logically some extra pounds doesn't figure to help matters.

alexstore

So if I was able to beat 0-60 80s corvette , does it make Maxima faster? No. Just I had better skills and faster legs then a guy in corvette. Any other person driving same corvette will simply beat me and I will be kissing his tail lights.
Also in my opinion in the right hands TL is Faster than Maxima and has tighter suspension.

cdmuile

Yeah, that's a hard one to figure. The new Jag XK is being built on what is basically the outgoing S Type platform. Same as used with the Linc LS and former T Bird. Those of us who were Jaguar owners couldn't understand why the LS got the manual tranny option. We also couldn't understand why Ford chose a $110,000 XJ Portfolio over a $40,000 entry level rwd XK roadster and GT. But don't get me started. I love my Azera!

autokritiker

I'll take the GS over that any given day.

You might want to test drive one in a couple months before passing judgment. Of course, some people would feel horribly embarrassed saying the words "I drive a Hyundai."

An interesting thing about brand "prestige" ---- did you ever notice how people worth millions of dollars often drive simpler cars like Fords, Hondas, Buicks, and the like? On the other hand, people who are in debt and miserable are often driving the $50,000 to $60,000 Lexuses, BMW's etc.

Very interesting indeed.

kdshapiro

"did you ever notice how people worth millions of dollars often drive simpler cars like Fords, Hondas, Buicks, and the like?"

Yes, and I've often noticed people with millions of dollars have chaueffered Rolls, drive high-end Mercedes, BMWs, Ferraris, Porsches and Bentleys. So what generality can you make out of this?

autokritiker

Yes, and I've often noticed people with millions of dollars have chaueffered Rolls, drive high-end Mercedes, BMWs, Ferraris, Porsches and Bentleys. So what generality can you make out of this?

Actually, those people you're referring to, driving $100,000 and $200,000+ cars or being chauffered, are wealthy.

I was referring to those who own their homes flat-out, maybe a couple rental properties or vacation property, maybe a classic car in the garage they take out once in a blue moon. You know, the average well-off people worth 3,4,5,6 million dollars. I thought that would have been pretty obvious, but I guess I needed to clarify that. Thanks KD.

Now back on topic. I love the way the Genesis looks. It does look like a mercedes in the front, like an Infinity M in that back, and like an Audi from the side. Not bad cars to emulate IMO.

louiswei

You might want to test drive one in a couple months before passing judgment.

No, that's okay, I'll pass. I prefer GS' exterior and interior design over the Genesis and I would take Lexus' service over Hyundai's any day of the week. If I am currently driving a Toyota/Honda/Nissan then yeah, I might be interested, however, until I am greatly disappointed by Lexus then I don't think I'll switch to Hyundai anytime soon...

louiswei

It does look like a mercedes in the front, like an Infinity M in that back, and like an Audi from the side.

Another reason I wouldn't buy a Genesis.

If I am driving a Hyundai then I expect it to look like a Hyundai, not some poor kid who doesn't know who his father is...

vic10

Oh I don't know. I think it's a beautiful looking Infiniti, er, Camry, er, Honda, er, Buick er, whatever....

prosource1

Did any of you Hyundai addicts out there notice the (plastic?) 'moonwood' in these Genesis pictures'

Not a Hyundai addict here but Krafcik stated the Genesis would have genuine wood interior so you're eye is lacking in the accuracy department.

pat

I remain puzzled why people continue to participate in this discussion for the sole purpose of saying they do not find this discussion useful.

I again invite those people to find something else of interest and leave this one to those who do want to participate.

Thank you very much.

joe97

You're right, no V8 option available at launch (imagine, it might have pushed closer to 400 with the V8). But, considering the Genesis coupe with the V6 engine is expected crank out above 300 horses mark, hardly shabby. There will also be a I4 turbo which will attract a lot of enthusiasts. Rumored pricing under 20K for the I4 turbo and mid 20s for the V6, looking forward to it!!!

Saw this on the Genesis sedan - some of the features:

SCC (smart cruise control),
AFLS (Adaptive Front Light System),
Air Suspension and Variable Damper: it wrote if you drive over 120 km/h for 10 sec, the car will be lowered about 15 mm and go higher about 30 mm while you're driving on the rough road.
DIS(Driver information system),
Lexicon sounds system with 17 speakers.....

Some photos:

http://www4.slikomat.com/07/1221/9r7-Hyunda.jpg

http://geneclub.co.kr/bbs/skin/muti_gallery/imgview.php?name=data/photo2/5.jpg&w- =800&h=600

captain2

so you're eye is lacking in the accuracy department.
maybe it is - but look closely at the picture of the insets in the car armrests - seemingly identical to what I found the plastic Sonata 'wood' and not representative of any real wood that I know of. It's a horrible simulation and looks cheap.. If what is pictured on that photo is indeed wood, then I'd sure like to know where they found the trees and even it if it real it still doesn't change the cheap look.
Sure hope that Hyundai is not learning from people like Ford, promising V8s and not delivering, or promising an upscale (probably should be genuine wood if it is used) interior and not delivering one. Have always thought that the Azera fake wood was much better than what they put in Sonatas - you would think that they would have used waht they already had in the more expensive car.

gamleged

http://geneclub.co.kr/bbs/skin/muti_gallery/imgview.php?name=data/photo2/5.jpg&w- =800&h=600

I also see heated and air-conditioned seats and a switchable sport mode...

tonycd

And with Hyundai's executive on the record, by name, about the wood being real, I would suggest that at this point you are simply embarrassing yourself.

Based on the long gestation, multiple versions and lavish equipment levels of this car, the Hyundai people are very obviously aware that it is crucial they not misstep in this first foray into serious luxury. Critiquing the depth or quality appearance of woodgrain based on pre-production spy shots shows a lack of depth not in the woodgrain, but rather in the critic.

By the way, there are a couple of specific statements in this thread with which I heartily agree. The Azera's fake wood indeed does look better than the Sonata's; it's unimaginable to me that Hyundai would bring out this critical step-up car with worse then they've already offered in cheaper models. And Vic10's mention that the Genesis is generically styled is obviously true, IMO -- but remember, that was the knock on the original Lexus, too.

By the way, if you really want to see hideously executed fake wood on an armrest, check out the '08 Accord EX. I couldn't believe it would look as bad in person as in the pictures, but it does.

thegraduate

By the way, if you really want to see hideously executed fake wood on an armrest, check out the '08 Accord EX. I couldn't believe it would look as bad in person as in the pictures, but it does.

I didn't think it looked too bad in the Accord - I dont like wood trim (plastic or real) and prefer metal (even if its fake) instead. The Accord EX isn't a "Large Car" so in this convo, it doesn't matter.

louiswei

I think the Avalon bright yellow fake wood looks the "fakest" out of them all. However, it's funny that if I have to pick a fake wood (I prefer metallic or aluminum trim) I would pick the Toyota fake yellow wood because it looks really good with the beige/tan interior.

floridabob1

I love fake wood!
You don't have to worry about termites.
Plastic, the wood of the 21st. century.

zredsox

I love fake wood!
You don't have to worry about termites.
Plastic, the wood of the 21st. century.

Also with fake wood you never have to be concerned with that lemony Pledge smell.

alexstore

Anyone will be crazy to expect in a $30 k to have real wood. I am happy with my Maxima SE that has no hints of wood anywhere.

ncelk

I have always thought that wood added some warmth to a car. However, I too have a Maxima SE (07) with aluminum on the inside and have come to find that I like it really well.

quietpro

Agreed! The fake metal trim in my Impala is much easier on the eyes than that fake wood look. It's pretty easy to fake metal but realistic wood grain would require something to randomize the pattern once you actually managed to make it look realistic. So far, I haven't seen it done satisfactorily.

alexstore

what do you think of 09 maxima going MB CLS way of coupe-sedan? What about Nissan being first on this forum to offer diesel?

captain2

now out, if you choose to value what this publication has to say:

Performance/Road Tests: 1. Avalon 2. Maxima 3. Azera
Reliability: 1. Lucerne V8 2. Avalon 3. Charger V6
FE: 1. Avalon 2. Maxima/Taurus-500 3. Lucerne 3.8

Interesting to note -

- the Azera which had previously been the only car in this group to be rated 'much better than average' (reliability wise) as an 06 model, has been downgraded significantly to 'average' apparently because of some problems with the 07 rendition. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense because new models should improve as they age (see the Avalon and Lucerne) not get worse. Makes you wonder if Hyundai is starting to cut some corners in the car's manufacture - or whether this is a condition of the Hyundai breed - the same sort of thing happened with the Sonata.

The 300 V8 has improved to 'average' and now is rated higher than the 3.5 V6 - the opposite of the way it used to be, and probably means an uncertain future for the relatively high rated (again reliability wise) Charger V6 but better for the Hemi.

Chevy apparently has a lot more trouble putting V8s in FWD sedans than Buick does. Buick needs to thank Cadillac for that. The Impala V8 is very poorly rated.

The G8/Genesis (which are in this group for reasons I don't understand) are not rated at all certainly because CR has nothing to judge, or any stats to evaluate. I don't believe that they have road tested the Taurus as I would think that the car's ordinal 'road test' scores would have improved with the DT3.5.

captain2

I would suggest that at this point you are simply embarrassing yourself.

"If what is pictured on that photo is indeed wood, then I'd sure like to know where they found the trees and even it if its real it still doesn't change the cheap look"

is what I said - so I guess I stand 'embarassed'?

I too find wood imitations generally objectionable - one of the things I like about my Avalon Touring which also makes no effort at 'wood' only some plastic 'metal' which looks better (perhaps more European') IMO

smithed

Not exactly: I did have to put an electric fan in the Intrepid and an intake manifold gasket in the Aerostar. The Intrepid has a new battery, too. My son is taking the Intrepid back to college in January. Happy New Year.

smithed

"I love fake wood!
You don't have to worry about termites.
Plastic, the wood of the 21st. century.
Also with fake wood you never have to be concerned with that lemony Pledge smell."
I never thought that wood inside meant much in cars, but my tastes run pretty much middle of the road. I have always liked vinyl, chrome, aluminum, etc better. I guess it's a thing that "luxury" cars are supposed to have. Plus wood is a good source of a carbon sink so that cars with wood are environmentally friendly until the wood gets burned up or consumed by critters.

The dash in my 300C is all plastic and fake metal and looks pretty good just the way it is. I've seen some people install wood kits, not my cup of tea.

I've seen wood in cars that actually detracted from the looks, again my opinion.

allmet33

Actually...the worst fake wood grain I've seen is in the new model Santa Fe's. It looks like the "graining" was drawn on with a Sharpie pen...it looks hideous!!!

When it comes to how wood grain looks in a car, whether it's faux or real...it's going to be a subjective thing. The look of wood does lend itself towards a luxury feel, but some folks feel that industrial can be luxury too. I've seen some very luxurious rooms that have a lot of leather and brushed nickel. While it's not as warm and inviting as something with wood and leather...it can still be luxurious. It just boils down to what cup of tea you prefer.

thegraduate

For a change of subject...

What would single-handedly keep you from owning one of these particular vehicles?

For example - I wouldn't own the Buick Lucerne because of the powertrain; I wouldn't own the Dodge Charger because of its interior materials, etc...

I'd particularly like to know why you would NOT choose a Ford Taurus. A family member is in the market and I'd like to know what to look for that would be a detriment. I'm having trouble finding faults with the vehicle.

tjc78

Hey Grad

Your first two are dead on the money! The killer for me on the Maxima was torque steer, and the Impala doesn't have the best powertrain offerings either. It needs a V8 to keep up with the other V6s

The Taurus is a great car. I always liked the 500, but as has been said before its underpowered. The only thing I can say bad about the Taurus is, it figures to have pretty low resale. If the person buying it is keeping it a long time that doesn't matter. However, I would think about looking for a used one as it will be a great value. Also worth noting some car mags have knocked the 3.5 as being a tad unrefined. I haven't driven the 3.5 yet, so I can't comment further.

thegraduate

If the 3.5L in the Taurus is at least more refined as that in the Five Hundred, they should be in decent shape. The 3.0 wasn't a bad engine, it just had too much car to lug around.

tjc78

I'll go for that. Since there doesn't seem to be a lot of Taurus owners around here. Go check out the Lincoln MKZ or Ford Edge forums they are all using the 3.5 and I believe its exactly the same as in the Taurus. Should give you an idea. Like you said its hard to find fault in the Taurus. Moderately equipped I guess you could easily be out the door under 25K. Thats a lot of car for the money IMO.

thegraduate

I think right around $20k for a base model is what I read on the Taurus Prices-Paid forum.

In September, I had a quote for $21,200 for a Taurus SEL with the Power Adjustable Pedals option. That was before the current larger rebates.

Comparing to a 4-cyl Honda Accord LX with plastic wheel covers for similar (if not a little more) money makes vehicles like the Taurus look like a complete steal.

captain2

while I personally don't like the styling changes (the front grille/taillights) that came with the Taurus namechange there is no doubt that the 3.5DT and the elimination of the CVT both serve to improve that car. For those that put a lot of emphasis on drive out prices, the Taurus along with the Azera should top almost any list. The only thing to perhaps raise a bit of a red flag - Ford's recent resale histories, 'fleet' usage, and financial difficulties.

thegraduate

Well, for my grandmother (Who I'm doing the car shopping for) resale is a non-issue. She has given away every car she has owned for the last 30 years, starting with a 1971 Ford Torino, and most recently, she gave me her 1996 Accord that had 125k mi for my 15th birthday back in 2002 (You know the car from the midsize forums, captain )

We have come in contact with a seemingly great Ford dealer with a no-pressure internet manager. We have been to that dealer twice, he always opens up whichever vehicles we would like, and then walks away for a while - not bothering us at all. We've never test-driven the car there, and he has never asked us if we wanted to do so, although I know he'd let us at the drop of a hat if we requested. Best of all, the dealer is the closest dealer outside of the Honda dealer that is literally down the street from her. Unfortunately, that dealer is moving to the interstate, and to an area she is not comfortable going by herself to get service, etc.