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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    The Avalon,and Azera would have to redo their whole car to make it as a police car.Now I see the Azera with a bad suspension now show tranny problems on their forum,The Azera is slowly falling apart.It cant handle personal useage,it sure couldnt handle taxi or police.No I didnt pay msrp,plus I had a trade.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, it's not like the Charger police cruiser is bone stock anyway. I am pretty sure Dodge at least strengthen the body in order to make it a cruiser. Also, I don't know about redo the whole car, I am pretty sure with the same modification and tighter suspension the Avalon and Azera can be equally competitive as the Impala cruiser since they are all FWD.

    Actually it really doesn't matter because the government can't afford Azera and Avalon anyway...
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    The police prefer RWD.Plus I hate to tell you,but the Charger R/T cost more then the Azera and Avalon.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The police prefer RWD.

    It depends. I recently heard that NYPD actually prefer Impala because it's FWD so more useful in snowy conditions.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Well I lived in Central New York,snow country,and they prefer RWD.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    It seems that this topic has degenerated into either bashing the Azera/Hyundai or defending them. Think I'll skip even reading it from now on. :(
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4138: It seems that this topic has degenerated into either bashing the Azera/Hyundai or defending them. Think I'll skip even reading it from now on.

    I am with you scbob. I wish there was a way to
    delete this topic off my monitor.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, if it's on your Watched Items list, you can change that. In any case, you don't have to click into it if you don't want to read it. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Or, feel free to start a new conversation topic within this thread. (I tried bringing up the new Maxima).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    People on here Flip -flop

    no actually we are all rather consistent - allmet is the guy that is always contending that Hyundai's (in his case) longer warranties are a good sign of a cos. faith in its product and that it must mean better quality because otherwise it would cost too much to offer - I am the one that will claim it is nothing more than a marketing gimmick, is rarely used, and, if anything, is more likely to be hiding suspect quality - or at least that reputation. Extended warranties are offered as a means to sell more cars - nothing more, nothing less - but certainly not indicative of any product qualities, good or bad. .

    I'm happy to hear that you (or anybody) had particularily good luck with Chrysler products - consumer surveys and ratings would certainly support that you are more an exception than the rule. I guess you don't want to hear about a ridiculous design Chrysler used on its trucks about 10 years ago - that had me replacing entire trannies 3 times in 150k, and how 'reluctant' Chrysler was to stand behind their product/admit to their mistakes - do you? Ended up having to throw the truck away, eating several grand, and somehow I have this policy to never get within 100 miles ;) of a Chrysler (Dodge) dealership - ever again! Wonder why? And yes, I also an exception rather than the rule as well - on the other extreme - but we do tend to remember the bad stuff don't we?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually louis, I think that Toyota would have no interest in bidding to NYC (or whoever) to supply them anything - they have plenty of idiots like me that will pay them a bunch more for that Avalon! Somewhere I did read, however, that the Charger V8 was finally supplanting those fine CVs as the vehicles of choice amongst the gendarmes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Cap, that's exactly the point I was trying to make, Toyota doesn't need to dump the Avalon to fleets because:

    1. They have no problem moving it
    2. They make way more profit by selling them through retail
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    Last year I rented at least 12 - 15 times and never once saw an Avalon at any rental lot/garage. I rent with National and, the only Yota they ever had was a Highlander on Emerald Aisle which I quickly swiped up!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No need to get upset, the facts are what they are.

    However...I would have to agree with you on some degree. The Azera is one of the more unique vehicles Hyundai has produced. The only one I can say was more unique was the Santa Fe (older model). There was nothing on the road like it prior to, during or after it!!! LOL

    Now why would I wanna shoot you, then we wouldn't be able to have colorful debates!!! ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Bad suspension??? Tranny problems??? Where do you get your info my man? The suspension on the Azera has never been called bad and there is no tranny problem.

    I hate to break it to you, but I've had my Azera going on 2 years, with just over 40K miles on it and I have not had any problems at all. The only tranny issue was a wide open throttle shift from 1st to 2nd and a tranny re-flash took care of that. The suspension...not a thing wrong with mine at all.

    Don't go looking on another forum for one or two postings where someone talks of an issue they are having and automatically chalk it up to the model in its entirety having those very same issues. No car will ever exist that doesn't have a few per 100 with an issue or two. Last I looked, Hyundai had higher marks in that department than Mopar did.

    Police departments will pretty much always buy American made because the American companies will offer deep discounts on fleet sales. The imports will do no such thing. Also, the reason taxi companies can buy used police cars and drive them for years afterwards is that most taxi companies have their own mechanics to work on them. You have no clue as to how many times taxi cabs go down and how often they are in for repair. In their case, the little money spent on them is worth it since they make so much more than their worth.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Charger R/T costs more retail because it's a V-8...we've already had that discussion.

    As far as the actual price paid by a police department...the fleet sale price is bare minimum and I guarantee that the police departments are getting the Charger R/T's for about the price of the Charger SE...if not less!!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Charger R/T cost more then the Azera and Avalon.

    Uh, really? That's funny because I used Edmunds to build me a bone stock Charger R/T and Avalon Limited with typical equipments and:

    Avalon Limited:
    MSRP: $37,075
    TMV (what people are actually paying): $36,990

    Charger R/T:
    MSRP: $32,380
    TMV (what people are actually paying): $31,432
    TMV after incentives & rebates: $28,432
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some personally directed comments have been removed. Please stick to the cars, thank you so very much. :)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    I wonder if the passenger side windshield wiper clears the hood now, or maybe that is an exclusive Azera design flaw.
  • sergio19sergio19 Member Posts: 90
    Was in Hyundai this week for an oil change and a laser alignment and spoke briefly to the my salesman and he had heard that the Genesis North American version would have 420HP and that the Korean model would have 370HP.

    This is what he heard recently!

    Regards,
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:4156
    I find it hard to believe that they would have that much power.
  • snaglepussnaglepus Member Posts: 160
    That salesman must be related to the one at my agency
    that stated that there were to be no 2008 Azeras.

    There's nothing worse than a uninformed salesperson.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 4156 my salesman and he had heard that the Genesis North American version would have 420HP and that the Korean model would have 370HP.

    Hmmmmm, so now the Koreans have decided to compete with AMG BMW "M" and SRT , all for under 40k? Sign me up!
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4159: that stated that there were to be no 2008 Azeras.

    No 2008 Azera is more believable than a 420hp Genesis.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Hmmmmm, so now the Koreans have decided to compete with AMG BMW "M" and SRT , all for under 40k? Sign me up!

    Add Nissan GT-R to the list and Audi RS6. Under $40K 420 horsepower, sheesh I might even set aside my perceptions and take one for a test drive. Now if only they are 420 real horses.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    V6 around 305; V8 around 380

    We should find out the exact figures very soon!!
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4162: Now if only they are 420 real horses.

    Hyundai has a reputation for misstating hp claims in the US, as was the case with the '02 Santa Fe 6
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    If you want to display a picture in your post, please make sure that it fits within the text area. If it does not, you need to either reduce its width or just give us a link. One good option is to post it on your CarSpace page and use the automatically generated code to display it - that should make it fit the way it should.

    A recent software change has made this more important than ever. A too-wide picture prevents a number of posts appearing on its same page from being read. In the future, I will be removing pictures that cause this distortion.

    I'm sorry about this, but it cannot be helped.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Except this is a case about some guy talking up his rear. It's called non-sense:

    "Car X will have X number of horsepower" said dealer, but only to arrive on the market with Y horsepower (less than X). If you had believed the dealer and formulate the hp was mis-stated when car X only came with Y horsepower, then the very defn. of rumors would cease to exist.

    Here is the bottom line, Lambdas are very flexible, as we have seen. The Genesis will feature the second generation (increased hp/fuel economy) Lambdas, as are many other models in the lineup. The 305 rumored output in the Genesis is as a result of direct injection, among other reasons, vs. non-DI Lambda in the upcoming Azera facelift, which will probably be in the range of 275.

    The optional Tau 4.6L V8 is very powerful, based on early reports - rumored to have a power rating of around 380hp. In addition, the other two known engines in the Tau family include a 5.0L and 5.5, with superchargers.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I wouldn't say Hyundai has a "reputation" for mis-stating horsepowers. The whole issue back in the days, IIRC, the SF was overstated by 11 hp - why? Actual hp figures changed between first test and the final one, due to the emission control, which reduced the horsepower level, and it wasn't communicated properly within the organization. Human error, big friggin' deal - no one (no organization) is perfect. FWIW, the overall affected range was mis-stated by only 4.6hp, and Hyundai compensated owners with additional warranty coverage.

    In fact, it's not like other car companies haven't had similar issues, Honda, Toyota, Ford, and others have all overstated hp (some were 20 over). And those owners didn't get anything. IIRC, everyone was defending Honda, Toyota, saying no one was mis-led, they were the same engines...

    Anyway, I am more concerned by automakers issuing recalls only after flaws had resulted in consumer injuries and/or fatalities.

    Back to this ridiculous hp issue at hand, "NA spec 420hp; S. Korean 370hp", right on the surface, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, think about it...

    PS, to my knowledge, the South Korean market isn't getting the V8.

    And let's just get this out of the way - the V8 coming to America isn't putting out 420 at launch; this is rubbish non-info from some dealer without much knowledge. Anyone still believing this, and feels being mis-led when official info is released, well, I hate to say it, these individuals deserve the highest honor of gullible-ness ;)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Whatever the "official" HP rating is, the manufacturer should be prepared to prove it on the front side. Better to avoid the bad press of a class action loss and the big opps on the back side.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Considering Hyundai has already dealt w/a horsepower snafu once before...I'm sure they learned their lesson. A 375 hp V-8 seems much more reasonable than 420 hp. I know previous predictions said, "...more than 300 hp...", but 420...I seriously doubt that.

    From what I read on one site...

    V-8 version will pack 375 ponies, a mid-level with a 3.8 V-6 will pack 325 hp and a base level with the 3.8 V-6 will pack 290 hp.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 4169 Marketing 101, good-better-best. Now, if they would only take the H off.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    while most enthusiasts know and probably want RWD in their 300+ hp large sedans for good reason, the question really is does the market really want the RWD, ( or do they care given that the FWD sedans will generally do better on the slipperies, and will also likely be better FE wise). Whether it is the 'Genesis' or the new GM Aussie built RWDs I think there is a question of whether they will sell - after all it is possible to buy a vehicle with those FWD dynamics that most folks are used to , get more than sufficient power as well as decent FE. I contend that 300s and Chargers (even with the V6) don't sell specifically because they are RWD ( although the Hemi almost has to be RWD) they sell because of their love-hate appearances. I truly believe that many buyers of these kind of vehicles would not care about what wheels were doing the work - at least until they read the EPA FE estimates on the window.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I would say yes - but then again I would regard somebody that is going to appreciate what cars of that genre can do (and are willing to pay for it) by any normal definition -- are enthusiasts. It is not so much that we Avalon/Maxima/Azera etc. owners can't be enthusiasts, but more a question of degree and a willingness to pay for it....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...one way to deal with the issue is to do what Lexus did with their GS line-up...make them AWD instead. The GS line, while enjoyed good ratings in reliability...took a major dive when it come to incliment weather handling. I knew too many folks that had them and complained whenever it rained or snowed. Same thing with the Charger/300/Magnum.

    Lexus heard the cries and made the GS line AWD and the Charger/300/Magnum all come with an AWD offering as well. To me, this was smart because there are areas where AWD really isn't needed, but in areas were you get a lot of rain and or snow...could prove useful in the models packing 300+ hp.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and all that AWD really adds is more complexity, weight, and cost. While it does sell these days, I contend that is generally unnecessary. The folks that had trouble driving the RWD GSs/300s etc. in the snow are those same folks that probably grew up with FWDs and have no idea how to handle it (RWD).
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    I contend that 300s and Chargers (even with the V6) don't sell specifically because they are RWD ( although the Hemi almost has to be RWD) they sell because of their love-hate appearances. I truly believe that many buyers of these kind of vehicles would not care about what wheels were doing the work - at least until they read the EPA FE estimates on the window.

    Given the fact that many of the younger generation have NEVER driven a RWD, I wonder how many of the buyers above even understand the difference. Some may be in for a rude awakening when the snow falls. I suspect that much knowledge on how to drive on snow or ice with RWD cars has not been passed on.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Some may be in for a rude awakening when the snow falls.
    Exactly my point, do people, in general,, start avoiding these high HP RWD cars simply because they won't be able to drive them and are more 'comfortable' with the FWD selections we already have?
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    For a lot or people its a Toyota or a Honda. For some if you asked them whether it was FWD or RWD you would probably get a blank stare ;) .
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Exactly, the majority of the general public is not aware of the drivetrain of their car, especially FWD/RWD. The exception here, AWD - at least in my experience, when asked people to take it easy in snow, icing conditions, they'd respond "I have AWD" (implying they can't get in trouble) - No comment ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    This may be true, which is even more reason to give those cars with the 300+ hp, AWD so you take the lack of knowledge out of the equation. I mean...it has been shown that the newer GS-line up is better when it comes to rain & snow.

    That fact that a good number of those that post in this forum grew up driving RWD vehicles in every condition imaginable is cool and you probably wouldn't have a need for it, but we're talking about the younger ones that don't have that experience and need all the help they can get.

    Yeah...AWD may add some weight, complexity and other variables, but in the grand scheme of things...the pay off is worth it if that means that others driving around them are a bit safer.

    Me and my wife just bought the Saturn Outlook which is a FWD vehicle w/AWD as an option. I opted for the AWD because even though I can drive anything out there no matter what, I want to be comfortable in knowing that she'll be okay. Yes, the cost was about $2K more, but peace of mind is priceless. I compared the numbers in FE between the FWD and AWD model and the numbers weren't but maybe 1 mpg off from each other. I think maybe simply because of the added weight since the AWD feature only kicks in when needed.

    I've got buddies right now that own 300's, Magnums and Chargers and they really don't drive them much when it's raining or anything like that. One of them does because he got the AWD model.

    Simply put, I say make the Genesis V-8 model with the AWD and then make the other two V-6 versions FWD only. The V-8 w/375 hp will not have any problems toting that little bit of extra weight around. ;)
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    I've got buddies right now that own 300's, Magnums and Chargers and they really don't drive them much when it's raining or anything like that. One of them does because he got the AWD model

    I generally agree with your premise and safety is (or should be) an issue with all of us. I personally have no problem with FWD as it IS easier to pull through snow than push through it. Hope your buddy with the AWD still slows down in bad conditions. High speed and crummy conditions spell disaster no matter what type of drive you have.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    "Simply put, I say make the Genesis V-8 model with the AWD and then make the other two V-6 versions FWD only"

    I must disagree here. RWD will be what makes the Genesis a success. If it comes to market as FWD I won't even look at it. I am tired of FWD. A RWD car offers such a better balance. My problem is the large cars I can afford with RWD are limited. The 300/Charger doesn't do it for me in any way and the Grand Marquis/CV while good cars (dinosaurs :) )....have been there and done that. So, needless to say I am excited about the Genesis, I am thinking about the V6 model for my next vehicle. OTOH... the new GM (Impala, G8) platform will be worth a look too. I still have the Avalon for 16 months or so, but already getting the itch for a new ride....

    P.S. ... If any of the new offering don't do it for me, I will get another Avalon. Just turned 18,000 and still great!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    The discussion reminds me of Jaguar(Ford's) dilemma when deciding on an entry level "X" Type. The underpinnings had to be based on the FWD European Ford Mondeo. Jaguar purists( and there are a bunch of them) were enraged as there had never been a FWD Jag. Not to worry, said Ford. The baby Jag is going to be AWD! Voila! Revolutionary! .....Sorta..not.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Indeed...my buddy with the AWD does drive with sense. He said he had drien an R/T without AWD in bad weather and the back end had a penchant for breaking loose rather easily. He said with AWD, it's easier to harness the power and keep the back end under control.

    I have seen plenty of times where folks with AWD think they can drive at normal speeds and ultimately...end up in a ditch on the side of the road. A lot of folks don't realize that AWD can be a preventive safety measure...IF handled properly. One thing they don't realize is that AWD means nothing at all if all 4 wheels end up on ice at the same time.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Tjc78...you may just get your wish, I think the V-6 models will be FWD, but the V-8 version will be RWD for sure.

    You know...AWD may not really be necessary on the Genesis considering the weight distribution is 57/43. By it being so close to balanced, it may not have any issues that careful driving couldn't overcome.

    I'm definitely one that's excited about both the Genesis sedan & coupe. The more pics I see of the Genesis, the more I can't wait to see it in person. The one thing that's really keeping me from making the decision to get one when they come out is not wanting a car note!!! :cry:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The V-8 w/375 hp will not have any problems toting that little bit of extra weight around
    Probably not - but is a car like this RWD or AWD really going to sell as gas gets to $4/gallon. The Genesis, by those specs., and logically assumming a weight of something more than 2 tons (see the 300C) is not going to be anything that I would certainly want to have to pay to drive despite what should be 5+ sec. 0-60s and 14 sec. quarters. when I already have a vehicle that is at least as spacious (and comfortable) and likely returns me as much as 10 mpg more overall. That, my friend, amounts to a whole bunch of $4/gallon gas. ;)
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I recently returned from a trip to the UK. I saw a few American V8's running around - mostly Jeep Grand Cherokee's with the Hemi. Of course, the majority of cars in the UK use much smaller and fuel efficient engines due to the price of fuel. Converting the quantity of measure and to the USD, the price last week in the UK for unleaded regular was $8 per US gallon. Now, how many V8's would we be driving with gas at that price!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...in most cases when someone buys a car of this nature, fuel economy isn't exactly the foremost thought in their mind. It's about having the power, the ability to mash the gas pedal and GO! A simple case of making a sacrifice to have what you want. Just because YOU may not go that route, doesn't mean there aren't plenty out here that will.

    Folks thought SUV sales would stop when gas was hitting $3/gal. They stalled briefly and you started seeing folks trade them in for more gas concious vehicles. However, there seem to be just as many if not more SUV's on the road now as there was when gas was $2/ gal.

    The point is, you're always gonna have some that just don't care what gas costs, it's not going to stop them from owning what they truly want to own. In most cases, they know that and they bite the bullet and don't complain. Not that they have any room too, after all...they made the decision to begin with.
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