Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

bhmr59

Please give some examples of those "many ways", in your opinion that the Avalon is "far superior." Of course, don't include styling, which almost everyone agree is subjective.

tjc78

"Please give some examples of those "many ways""

It wasn't my post but, here are my examples:

Superior technology in the engine
Better FE
Higher Resale
More options available
More controlled ride (my subjective opinion)
Larger back seat

Now.. having said that. The Azera is one fine ride for the money and yes the price difference of the Avalon can be hard to justify. However, if your only keeping 3 - 4 years the cost to own is about the same or less for the Av. Frankly, you can't go wrong with either one. There is no doubt in my mind that as far as large cars in this price range go Av is #1 and Azera is a close 2nd. The rest just make too many compromises or have uninspiring engines. Now... if GM would kick the UAWs rear end and bump up production on the 3.6 and drop it into the Lucerne then the Azera would be tied (IMO of course ) for 2nd.

allmet33

I honestly say that I would have to agree with you on this one. Great post!!!

captain2

If the difference above is worth $4,000, I'll stick with the slug
well, 6.8 to 60 is hardly a slug but it should not surprise you to know that based on kbb.com as well as Edmunds and Intellichoice 'cost to own' numbers that the 06 Avalon XLS (20k, exc. condition, private party) is currently worth right at about $5k MORE than the Azera Ltd. in the same condition (24765/19650). If I use the same tunnel vision that you guys that seem impressed by 'deals' do, I guess the Avalon must be really be $1000.00 cheaper ! So while I personally have difficulty considering the Azera a 'slug' by any definition, and consider it surprising that the Azera is not holding its value better (with the relability record it is currently showing) - enjoy your slug - you could have bought an Avalon and possibly saved some money.

dborth

re 4080:

I have also seen articles of Azera 0 - 60 performance as low as 6.1, but on any given day, as they say.

The sticker price difference seems to be about $4,000 and I am not taking a shot at Avalon. Never drove one, played with one or even considered it.

I saw my first Azera on the San Bernardino freeway and was like, "wow, what is that"? I did a 30 month HMA lease on it and am very satisfied not only with the vehicle, but the amount of the monthly check. Obviously, resale is not an issue for me.

captain2

a 30 month HMA lease on it and am very satisfied not only with the vehicle, but the amount of the monthly check.
And a shorter term lease like this that is specifically based on any car's residual value after some rather limited use -is PRECISELY where high resale value cars like the Avalon would be cheaper - monthly depending, of course, on how much HMA is subsidizing the lease in order to get the cars off the lot.
Next time drive and price a similar lease on an Avalon, out-of-pocket cost differences- if any- may surprise you.

louiswei

There you go, so the Azera is one truly unique Hyundai, even with the Bangle butt.

So much for arguing about if Bangle butt is unique to BMW or not...

thegraduate

When directly compared you minimize the chance of different conditions, launch styles, etc... Most comparisons I have seen has the Azera right around 7 seconds, with the Avalon in the low 6s. It's not like the difference in the Azera and the Lucerne V6 though, now THAT's a difference worth noting.

captain2

I have also seen articles of Azera 0 - 60 performance as low as 6.1, but on any given day, as they say.
likely not with you driving it, or nor am I likely to get the 6.0 out of my Avalon. Kind of like those FE ratings that everybody likes to gripe about not getting. I can show you that my Avalon can get 35 mpg if you allow me to drive a bit too slow on the highway and you allow me to vary my speeds a little while I coast a lot. But it is foolish to claim that it is a 35 mpg vehicle, just like both the Azera and the Avalon are not going to run low 6s to 60, we won't abuse our cars to that degree..

dfwfrank

I think you did a nice job of putting together some examples. I would like to add a few more.

Toyota nameplate
Probably more knowledgeable service and sales about their product.

To put in examples of the Azera

Comparable interior and exterior size
Comparable build of materials in interior (IMO)
More space in the front
Larger trunk space
Comparable reliability
5/100,000 warranty
Free roadside
More standard options
Approx. 4K less
Less of the add-on options that Toyota dealers hit you with for a couple of hundred each.

You are right though, the Avalon is number one. I have owned both, and pleased with both. The Azera is still to new to tell, only time will tell. It will be interesting what GM can do in this segment with the apparent success of the new Malibu and the CTS.

dborth

re 4082: Next time drive and price a similar lease on an Avalon, out-of-pocket cost differences- if any- may surprise you.

I don't think you understood my post, I never considered an Avalon.

dfwfrank

So what would be some opinions if the Azera had a Toyota nameplate. Would Toyota lovers think of the Azera the same as they do now, better or worse. I think nameplates, country of origin, have a large impact when it comes to perception. (I remember in the 70s and 80s how one would get comments for buying a Japanese car, almost Anti-American). How would the general public perceive the Azera. And if the Avalon was a Hyundai, would that change how people think of Hyundai. Give it a thought before you answer.

louiswei

My personal reasons why I favor Avalon over Azera:

- Interior styling
- Engine

Both are highly subjective but I don't think that'll change if the Azera had a Toyota badge on it.

captain2

So what would be some opinions if the Azera had a Toyota nameplate
an interesting question because I think that many of us as much as we don't want to admit it would be bothered by that 'H' logo in our driveways - that doesn't mean 'Honda'. If we are assumming the same sort of price points for the 'Toyota Azera' as we have for the 'Hyundai Azera' and I also got with it the high residual values that also comes with the Toyota nameplate - well then you would have a winner from about any perspective you would wish to evaluate it. A Hyundai 'Avalon' in my mind would have the same perception problems as the Hyundai Azera.
Not exactly fair is it?

tenpin288

A Hyundai 'Avalon' in my mind would have the same perception problems as the Hyundai Azera.
Not exactly fair is it?

Hyundai ran across that perception problem when they were doing some customer previews of their Veracruz CUV. If I remember the numbers correctly, when shown without any badging, approximately 70% of the customers stated that they would consider buying the vehicle with many wondering how soon Toyota/Lexus was bringing it to market. When it was revealed that it was a Hyundai, that percentage dropped to around 50%. Dimly remembered distant history and current perception are Hyundai's biggest problems right now.

captain2

if your numbers are correct what this says is that only one out of three (or so) of these approving buyers changed their mind once they found out what it was. Surprises me, would have thought that to be higher, especially because those same
buyers put some sort of value on a Toyota/Lexus name, unless of course, those folks were too embarassed to admit to their own biases. .

tenpin288

The numbers are what I remember and since this old brain is a little tired today... :confuse:
I'll try to look it up again and verify it, but in general it still illustrates the problem Hyundai is up against in selling its product. Perception will change, but it will take some time and continuing good product to turn it around.

xtec

I found figure for sale of the Azera against the Avalon for Dec.06.It showed only 2,479 Azera sold compared to 7,955 for the Avalon.Plus I saw on CNN that Hyundai is having trouble selling 300k Hyundai's thats all models for 07.Charger alone is closing in the 100k mark this year,thats almost 1/3 of all Hyundai models.I would say Hyundai does have a problem selling anything.

thegraduate

The Dodge Charger has well over half of its cars going to fleet sales (56.2%); guess they made more than the public was willing to purchase. That's even more than the Grand Marquis, or Impala! Guess that shouldn't be a surprise though; Dodge's brand new Avenger has right at 80% fleet sales.

If you BUY a new Dodge you can say BYE to resale since the market will be flooded with low-cost models fresh from the rental lots.

tjc78

Grad you beat it me to it...... exactly what I was going to say!

thegraduate

What can I say, great minds think alike!

We all know that sales numbers dictate the best product anyway, right? I mean, the best hamburger in the world comes from McDonald's, right? :P

tenpin288

300K? Where did you pull that number from? :confuse: Hyundai's sales through the end of November for the calendar year are a little over 420K! Here's a link to the correct figures, which can be found on other sites also.

Hyundai Sale figures

Please get your numbers a least a little closer! :P

colloquor

Perception in this good old USA is everything, perhaps even greater than reality - and this applies to everything. I remember when National Electronics products first started showing up here in the USA in the '60s. "Ah, what pieces of junk" people would say. However, many of the servicemen bringing them back from Japan knew how good the product was. Anyone bought a Panasonic product lately?? Yes, one and the same, as the product was initially marketed as National by Matsushita Electronics - the parent company of Panasonic.

I could care less of what other people think of what I own, or what vehicle I may have in my driveway. I don't live life to impress other people, only myself.

allmet33

Louiswei...obviously you haven't been following the thread, the so called "bangle" butt look was actually seen before BMW & Hyundai on the Volvo...go check a pic of a late 90's S-80 sedan and you'll see. Not saying it was a thing of beauty, but...it would see Volvo intiated it as far as I can tell.

louiswei

Whatever...

I still maintain that Azera is the most unique Hyundai sedan up to date.

So shoot me.

captain2

perception changes historically seem to be marked with 'landmark' products - wasn't it really the Sony TVs that changed the way we all thought about Japanese electronics. Who knows, the Azera may be just the same knid of product for the Koreans? Time will tell.

xtec

You didnt read my post I said I saw it on CNN,so talk to them,and Hyundai has been know to fudge the numbers on everything.Still 2479 for Dec 06 is pitiful regardless.

xtec

I would like the link to what your saying.I read my info for the Charger on allpar.com and they made no mention of fleet sales.It also said that the Charger beat the Avenger on sell which suprised them seeing that the Avenger is new.The Charger is more popular then you want to believe.I see tons of them around,and see no rental tags on them,they are real owners not rentals.

louiswei

Okay, let's just say that Hyundai did fudge the sales numbers but how would CNN know exactly how many Hyundais have been sold up to date?

Last I heard Hyundai is having trouble to meet the 500k units goal they set for this year but they are already well passed 300k by now.

louiswei

Here you go: What actually sells: Fleet sales for first half of 2007

Here are the numbers for full size sedans:

Buick Lucerne 13.1% (mostly rental)
Chevy Impala 53.9% (mostly rental and commercial)
Chrysler 300 44.0% (mostly rental)
Dodge Charger 56.2% (mostly rental)
Ford Five Hundred 43.1% (mostly commercial)
Hyundai Azera 22.7% (mostly rental)
Nissan Maxima 15.9% (mostly rental)
Toyota Avalon 15.3% (mostly rental)

So yeah, Charger is the rental queen of the bunch.

Also, just so you know that most rental cars now don't have the rental tags or stickers on them anymore, at least that was the case for Hertz and Dollar. Much to my surprise, my last 2 rental cars from Enterprise (Magnum and Expedition) came without the little green "e" stickers on them.

xtec

yea and with the fleet sales still blows away the Azera in sales.Thanks for the link.But it shows alot less the what allpar said and they get their onfo from Chrysler.In AZ they have a FLT on the tag which means fleet.I haven't seen one Charger yet that had that.I'm not saying they aren't there,but not the ones I see.Plus it shows which car is popular,and what people want,and can hold up to the abuse.Plus a sale is a sale,I don't think Chrysler cared who bought them just move the Inventory thats whats its about,something Hyundai has trouble doing.

thegraduate

Louiswei...obviously you haven't been following the thread, the so called "bangle" butt look was actually seen before BMW & Hyundai on the Volvo...go check a pic of a late 90's S-80 sedan and you'll see.

How about my '96 Accord, then?

thegraduate

Plus it shows which car is popular,and what people want,and can hold up to the abuse

Oh, yeah. Run a car for 2 years and 40,000 miles. THAT'S a good measure of reliability.

Plus a sale is a sale,I don't think Chrysler cared who bought them just move the Inventory thats whats its about,something Hyundai has trouble doing.

Fleet sales are usually made in bulk. Bulk sales typically have discounts. Big discounts on more than half of the total number of models will definitely hurt resale value.

louiswei

Plus a sale is a sale,I don't think Chrysler cared who bought them just move the Inventory thats whats its about

Just so you know that no, and in no i mean nada, zero, zip auto manufactors with sane people running it would prefer fleet sales over retail sales.

That's a fact.

dborth

Re 4107: I don't think Chrysler cared who bought them just move the Inventory thats whats its about,

That, would include you, which you will feel at some point in the future.

xtec

It still beats the Azera in sales,plus this was comparison between the Azera and Avalon ,we already went through about a month of comparison between the Charger and Azera,and I dont think we need to go there.Plus I heard that the 08 Azera are still not on lots.My local dealer ads the 08 Sonata,but still trying to get rid of 07 Azera's.Its still about the sales thats what counts and Hyundai cant sell.That seems to be what Im reading,you just don't like facts.In my opinion the Azera is probobly the less selling car on this board.If and when the Genesis comes out,then Ill say Hyundai has a great car.The Azera is far from great in my opinion.If you people trade in your Azera for the Genesis,then I would say we have a good board here with great cars,till that happens it will be like this.Plus most of the people who are on here don't own the cars on here yet sound and defend them as if they own one.How can you compare something you don't own?Thats the one question nobody can answer.

pat

If people can't compare cars they don't own, then I guess you can't comment on any vehicle but the Charger? Come on, xtec.

You've been asked many times to drop that line - please do it.

donl1

:mad: Is anyone else tired of this pissing match?

tonycd

Yes, and there's one stream in particular I'd especially like to Dodge. :P

thegraduate

Yes, I noticed Dodge is capitalized...

So, how about the next Maxima?

pat

If you want a particular thread of conversation to go away, the best thing to do is stop responding...

captain2

Plus a sale is a sale,I don't think Chrysler cared who bought them just move the Inventory thats whats its about
that kind of thinking is what is largely responsible for the condition that the 'US' auto industry finds itself in. Chrysler continues to lose beaucoups of money giving their cars away for absurdly low prices, easily leads the pack when it comes to cars that end up in the airport lots (these cars are not sold by any stretch of the imagination - only supplied) and then further is forced to 'out-gimmick' the competition with absurd warranties - all of which cheapens not only the specific cars but also the brandnames as well. Not to mention the fact, that these are not American cars at all anymore, so our own economy suffers too.
Would further take an even money bet today that anybody buying a Chrysler product tomorrow won't have anything left to make that warranty claim with - 5 years from now. Hurry, hurry over to your local Dodge/Chrysler dealer before the power is shutoff!

smithed

Goodness, my son is bringing our 1999 Intrepid ES 3.2 liter with 123,000 miles home from college on Saturday. Should I be worried? Nah: That has been a great car. So has my other son's 2001 Cherokee with 122,000. So far our 2006 300C has been great (what a car!) at 32,000, but I have considered trading it for a 2008 to get that lifetime warranty. My 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee has only a few miles (14000) but so far so good.
I drove a 1990 Aerostar van until this spring, finally gave it up at 160000 miles when the transmission was going to cost $1500 to fix in a $200 vehicle.
My philosophy has been: buy new, care for it and drive it into submission.

louiswei

So you are telling me you didn't spend a buck from your pocket for your '99 Intrepid, '01 Cherokee and '90 Aerostar besides routine maintenance and oil change? If that's the case then sir you are the luckiest guy in the world that I've ever know.

pat

Let's stick to the actual cars here. The discussions about the whys and wherefores of the manufacturers are all over on the Automotive News board.

xtec

Thats funny Chrysler forget to sell me my Charger at a cheap price.First some agree that long warranties show that the company backs its cars.Now because Chrysler has the best warranty its not due to quality.People on here Flip -flop all the time.I don't understand you statement about 5 yrs.If you have a liftime warranty,I think that 5 yrs isn't liftime.I worked on police cars (Mopars) with close to 200k,Went to the auction and bought by taxi companies and drove them for yrs. later.I like to see Avalon,Azera do that.

xtec

Lets see who come last on this.My Hightest mileage this summer all city driving,I got 20.3,20.4 and last tank was 20.6.

xtec

I had A 02 Intrepid SXT with zero problems.One of the best car I had.Now the Charger took over for best car.

louiswei

Thats funny Chrysler forget to sell me my Charger at a cheap price

Did you buy the Charger at MSRP? If so then I feel sorry for you. If not, at what price did buy it from the dealer (relative to invoice)?

First some agree that long warranties show that the company backs its cars

I don't know who's the "some" that agreed on that but I always think long warranties such as Hyundai's and GM's are mainly just a way to attract more buyers. The auto manufactors are out to make money, not to provide civil service so if they are able to sell cars without warranties at all, trust me, they'll do it, whether they are German, American, Japanese or Korean.

I like to see Avalon,Azera do that.

I am pretty sure Hyundai and Toyota wouldn't mind to sell Azeras and Avalons as police cars and taxi cabs if the government and taxi companies are willing to pay retail...

louiswei

Lets see who come last on this.My Hightest mileage this summer all city driving,I got 20.3,20.4 and last tank was 20.6.

Which Charger V6 do you have? Either way that's pretty bad because my 306HP V6 gives me 21 MPG in city. I am pretty sure both the Azera V6 and Avalon V6 can do better than that and with higher HP than 250.