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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Come on Captain!!! You mean to tell me you don't understand the laws of physics? If you have a car with a softer suspension, what happens before the car even takes off? It squats down before it goes forward. The further down it squats, the more time it takes before the energy is transfered to forward energy. If you lessen the amount of squat, then you lessen the time it takes the car to squat, meaning it gets to the forward motion faster.

    Tread patterns actually can restrict acceleration as some patterns create more friction...you know, like how performance tires have directional tread and most non-performance tires have non-directional tread!!! The compund the tires a made from is what aids in traction. If it had to do with tread, then explain why slicks are preferred in straight line races.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    'Squatting' causing any real delay in acceleration standing start or otherwise
    is what I said - and if your are going to tell me that I could pit a specially outfitted (go cart springs) Azera against a Maxima let say outfitted with the sloppiest set of Buick springs ever made - and under those conditions the Azera now magically outaccelerates the Nissan - I'll take that bet. I guess my Avalon Touring must therefore outaccelerate the the other 'softer' versions? Not!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Go cart springs aren't strong enough for an Azera. I didn't say it would out accelerate, I said it would get off the line a bit quicker. You're also changing what I said. If you take two of the same model of car and give one the tighter suspension...you will notice a difference between the two getting off the line.

    Have you pitted your Avalon Touring against the others with the softer suspension?

    I would take that bet to...confidently!!!

    P.S. There is no "magic" to it. Why don't you take an up-to-date physics class and you'll understand. ;)
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    I wasn't aware the laws of physics had changed lately.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Personally I actually like suspension in Maxima and even while riding softer cars like xls camry I come back to enjoy one in my car. BTW you can get a softer ride in Maxima by getting SL. You will lose a part of enjoying your ride in that case. Also in a link so graciously provided by the graduate, though Avy is faster then Maxima, Maxima out grips Avalon. Can you imagine if NIssan Used grippier tires?
    Allmet, I have to agree with you that suspension is important for acceleration. There is an article about it on a different informational site. Basically suspension as related to acceleration improves contact between pavement and tires.
    Also since Avy, Max and Azy are all FWD cars unfortunately they need tighter suspension to provide more grip to front tires though physics are pushing vehicle's weight to the rear.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    A friend of mine had late 90's Mustang Cobra that he used in SCCA competitions. He had a Kenny Brown suspension upgrade installed that included sub-frame connectors, new springs, adjustable struts, strut brace, pan-hard bar, plus much more.

    The difference was unbelievable. I don't know what the timed difference in the qtr. mile was, if much at all, but the car just leaped anytime you hit the gas. I could definitely tell the power was going immediately to the ground. It felt much quicker at launch and at each gear change. I have no doubt suspension setup has an affect on acceleration.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,950
    The SL Maxima is still a firm riding car. I would even go as far as saying that the SL Max is firmer than even a Touring Avalon.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    do guys or girls at Hyundai have imagination? Even New Logo for Genesys is stolen from who else.... VW's Bentley. The car itself looks like combination of Infinity M front and BMW 7 series behind. Common Hyundai, stop stealing from other brands.
    Also why would a flagship use engine from a basic car. Genesys Engine options according to Edmunds are 3.3, 3.8 and 4.6. I understand last 2 but using 3.3 in flagship? It like using 2.0 and 2.5 in 04+ Maxima or 2.4 in Avalon.


    1) Genesis (what's Genesys?)

    2) Look up defn. for steal/theft

    3) Then look into the details of the Genesis logo, oh by the way, it's only for the S. Korean market

    4) Prelim. engine output reported:

    3.3L 265hp
    3.8L 290hp (coupe 300+hp)
    4.6L 370-380hp

    The 3.3L isn't coming to the US, it's only for the domestic (S. Korea market).
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    they will logically continue to do it until they figure out that the costs of honoring such warranties are more than the extra profits from selling more cars. Unfortunately, for Hyundai, the Azera/Sonatas are not quite in high enough demand - yet. OR, the Korean governement is subsidizing them (they have been known to do that) so simple rules of economics don't apply, they simply have their sights set on that market share that the American mfgrs. seem intent on giving them..

    In theory, yes, but in this case, Hyundai's warranty is actually doing more good than hurting the maker. Since its fast improvement in quality and reliability (started in the late 90s), repair costs have actually decreased by half vs. pre-10/100K program.

    People may argue its warranty as a gimmick, I'd say Hyundai is standing behind its product. That, plus Hyundai has been making quality products. Both go hand-in-hand.

    I highly doubt Korean govt is subsidizing Hyundai; Hyundai's got a huge bankroll.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    According to the Captain...they must have!
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    To ALL forum participants.
    These forums have been very active, enjoyable as well as informative.
    At times the postings have been a little heated and sometimes even hateful.
    I suggest that in the year to come we attempt to express our opinions without getting slammed by another participant having a different perspective.
    The information that I have garnered from these posting have far exceeded that provided by the company or dealership. I thank you all for your participation, and hope that we will continue in the year to come.
    Have a happy, healthy and safe holiday season and new year!
    Floridabob
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Alexstore...there's nothing wrong with what you prefer. Some like the sportier feel, while some like the feel of a cruiser.

    Imagine if the Avalon had grippier tires!!! Not only would it be faster, it might be able to give it a go in that department, but that's the difference between one being "sport" tuned and the other being "touring" tuned. Sport doesn't lend itself to overall ride comfort, it's about performance. Touring doesn't lend itself to performance, but rather ride comfort while offering some aspects of performance.

    I think Captain was taking what I was saying the wrong way. I'm not saying that if you tightened up the Azera's suspension, then all the sudden it would just beat the Maxima off the line, no...that's not what I said. I did say that at tighter suspension would help the Azera get off the line a bit quicker.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Is that the new 5 series? :confuse
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4038: Is that the new 5 series? :confuse

    I think it is a Hyundai.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    it's the new Hyundai Genesis sedan. (Check the subject line).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I highly doubt Korean govt is subsidizing Hyundai; Hyundai's got a huge bankroll.

    Wow, apparently you have no idea about how South Korea's economy works.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Looks like a birth child after BMW, Infiniti and Lexus all drank too much one night...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My first thought was that it looked like an M35/M45 from Infiniti.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Doesn't sound like a bad mix!!! If that were the case...good looking baby!!! ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Definitely not a bad mix and I agree that it is a fairly good looking baby, just lack a bit of creativity and originality that's all. I still think by far, Azera is probably the most "original" Hyundai design up to date. Looks good too.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Why does this car look like a FWD.Unless the car is coming to a stop,it looks like a lot of weight in the front.If it suppose to be rear wheel drive,looks like they better get a better balance.Other then that is looks good.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Looks pretty "hunkered down" to me. Many cars start high in the back and work their way to the front by sloping downward, like a muscle car looks higher in the back than the front.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    When I look at My Charger you can see its looks well balanced,that car doesn't.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...you can't go so far as to call the Azera truly orginal in design either. I've been told too many times how it resembles a BMW and if you look at the lines, it really follows the lines of the Benz S-Class.

    I'm not mad that they emulate other makes when it comes to exterior design. It actually takes the pressure off them so they can focus on getting the other things right, like durability, fit and finish, reliability, dependability. Once they start getting those things right consitently and it becomes 2nd nature for them, then you can look for them to branch off and bring some orginal designs to the sheet metal.

    Heck, I know if I were breaking in to the industry, I'm gonna take a look around at all the things that do work for the consumer and emulate those things myself. I mean...mockery is the best form of flattery, or so they say! ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Other than the blocky profile on the Charger, it does the same basic thing (starts high and goes lower).

    Keep in mind that in the picture, the tail of the car is a lot closer to the lens of the camera than the front is, making the front look smaller. Not to mention the camera angle makes it appear as if the car is going downhill.
    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't know about Charger looks well balanced, it certainly looks different that's for sure.

    By the way, how can a car "looks" FWD or RWD? :confuse: If I totally have no knowledge about a car the only evidence that'll give me a hint about it being FWD or RWD is the front over-hang. Generally speaking a RWD car will have shorter over-hang than a FWD car. Other than that I really don't understand how else can one just "look" at a car and know it's either FWD or RWD.

    The high rear and low front design scheme is very popular now with all major manufactures. It certainly helps the aerodynamics and at the same time gives cars a more aggressive look.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Guess you haven't read up on the specs of the Genesis...it's a RWD car and the weight distribution is pretty close to balanced at 53/47.

    First interior shots I've seen...

    Hyundai Genesis Gallery
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, that's true for the most part. However, if Hyundai really wants a piece of the luxury segment then sooner or later they'll need an unique design scheme. Genesis is good for the first try just like the LS400 was back in 1990, but look at Lexus now, none of their cars resemble anything outside the TMC, especially with the L-finesse design philosophy. Same can be said for Infiniti and Acura as well. This is where Hyundai needs to be in order to become a "real" player in that market.

    As for Azera, aside from the Bangle butt I can't see it resembles any other car and that's including the S-class. I don't consider Bangle butt an unique BMW design anymore because it got so popular now that many other manufactures have their own versions if it. For example look at Hyundai, MB and Toyota/Lexus.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You mean an orginal design like this (HCD7 Concept)

    image
    image

    You can't say the "bangle" butt isn't BMW unique anymore, but it started with them. If you look at the front end of the Azera, you can see an Acura in there.

    Funny you don't think the Azera resembles a Benz in any way. A buddy came to visit me and I let him drive my car while he was here. He took his family out to dinner and when they came out, his daughter walked up to a black Benz S-Class and stood there, waiting for him to unlock the doors. He said he walked over there and hit the button and nothing happened. He said he looked again and realized that it was a Benz. He said all 3 of them just stood there and laughed a few minutes before moving on to the real Azera.

    With my rims on...I was loading groceries in the trunk and a guy walked by and said, "Sharp looking 730i you got there!" I laughed, pulled the trunk lid down and showed him the italicized "H" and he went crazy! "Don't tell me that's a Hyundai...that can't be a "explicative" Hyundai!!!"

    You're one of the rare ones to think the Azera does not resemble any other cars out on the road my friend.

    Like I said, give them time...they'll venture out there and create something unique for their nameplate. Actually, have you seen the Genesis Coupe???

    image
    I see a bit of Toyota Celica and G35 Coupe in there.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Those people you've mentioned must have car IQ of 50 if they actually think the Azera resembles anything that close to a S-class or 7-series. Well, to a pair of "untrained" eyes, a lot of the sedans all look very similar anyway, I guess I am just a lot sharper when comes to auto stylings.

    As for the Bangle butt, yes it started with BMW but it is not an unique design for them anymore because there are many different versions from various companies. The VVT technology actually started with Fiat but who still think VVT is unique to that company anymore?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I highly doubt Korean govt is subsidizing Hyundai; Hyundai's got a huge bankroll.
    there is no doubt that there is a 'huge' bankroll but I am not sure whose.. As louiswei notes, you need some lessons in how the S. Korean economy works - something I do have some direct experience in working at a Hyundai shipyard in Ulsan, Korea about 20 years ago. It goes like this, the Korean government targets a particular industry that they feel the Koreans should be good at and subsidizes the Korean Co's efforts to be competitive in that business. The net result was, of course, that Hyundai was low bidder on contracts (with American Cos.) by outrageous amounts - typically $100 million to build something in the US, but half that price to deal with Hyundai (and Daewoo/Samsung etc.)- why - because Hyundai et al really didn't underrstand what anything really costs or was worth, but didn't really care because the $50 million got them the order (of course) and they always had the government subsidizing the other $50 million of losses. This kind of thing has been going on for years and years, the Japanese did it as well, and since, the Koreans, by necessity, have become quite a bit more competent in about everything they do. As a people they have an admirable desire to learn.
    Hyundai, at the tiem was manufacturings something called a 'Pony' and was generally fitted to run on LPG. It was a piece of junk not too far from what later became the Excel over here. Hyundai's CEO just got in a whole bunck of trouble over there for a bit of corruption so it would surpirse me if the same degree of subsidizatiion still exists given that even Hyundai has chosen the 'made in USA' route BUT if you don't think that is how things have worked, can work, and possibly are still working - wake up and smell the roses.
    All this said, BTW, I have nothing but respect for Korean friends, it is one of the few places left on earth where a real work ethic still exists.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    What about Maxima Compared to Lexus GS? One guy once asked me Is this a New GS?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...it takes someone with an extremely high car IQ to know the difference, right? I'm very sharp at noticing cars, but when you glance quickly...some are hard to tell apart until you get up on them.

    When the Azera first dropped, the "bangle" butt was still a pretty new look, then The Avalon & Camry got it, then you started seeign it pop up everywhere. Another thing you're confusing is looking like and having similar lines as well. Cars can share similar lines and still not look alike. Which is what I think folks mean when it comes to comparing the Azera with a Benz.

    I'm sorry that you're just so technically competent that you don't see things the way us normal folks do. ;)

    Who said anything about VVT???
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Now that is stretching it by a long shot. The Maxima looks NOTHING like ANY Lexus out there, whether is be the IS, ES, GS or LS!!! That's too funny!!!!

    One thing I will give Nissan, the Maxima was definitely a pretty unique design, well...till they made the Altima and Sentra share some of it's look! However, the concept Maxima that's puported to be upcoming....looks like a sleek Avalon.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'm sorry that you're just so technically competent that you don't things the way us normal folks do.

    Thanks for the compliment.

    Who said anything about VVT???

    I brought up the VVT as an example to validate my argument about Bangle butt is not BMW unique anymore.

    As for the Bangle butt, actually MB was quick to adapt with the S-series. Oh, and don't forget Maybach too. Other cars that have Bangle butts include Nissan Maxima and Acura RL, so yeah, I maintain that the Bangle butt is really not unique for BMW anymore.

    Just in this segment there are at least 3 cars with different styling Bangle butts. How's that unique to a certain brand?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    However, the concept Maxima that's puported to be upcoming....looks like a sleek Avalon.
    Lets hope so, something to differentiate it from the really sharp new Altima (IMO) - one of the problems that Nissan has created for itself since the 2002 Altima 3.5. Not that many years ago, when 'full size' meant something smaller, the Altima was only available with a 4 banger, and the '4DSC' Maxima was something truly unique - and fun.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmm...okay, but VVT is a technology and it really doesn't relate to design cues, which is what this was all about to begin with.

    Like I said in an earlier post, splitting hairs...the American way.

    Look here man, currently...it is not a unique BMW attribute. As I stated, at the time the Azera was dropped, it was still pretty much considered a BMW trait. We are now a few years removed from that, and yes...many cars sport some variation of that design element, but none make it look as good as BMW has. Yes Benz was quick to jump on it (Maybach...of course, it's a Benz...but of course you knew that already too, huh?) :surprise:

    So...with so many cars sharing that design cue, how you can you even jump out there and try to say that the Azera is unique in design? I guess if you were truly technically competent...you would have realized that faux pas. You can't make a statement about a car being unique in design and yet...it shares design elements with many other cars that are on the road as well.

    You're right, I'm sorry oh great and powerful Oz. I actually made a mistake myself. The "bangle" butt look actually goes back to the Volvo S80...I'm sure someone may even find it on something else. However, when BMW redesigned the 7-Series...they made it one sexy car, and that really amplified that look.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    RIGHT!!!! That new Altima coupe....is a sharp little car.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Like I said in an earlier post, splitting hairs...the American way.

    I am not trying to split hairs but simply make a statement that says: The Bangle butt design was originated by BMW but since it is widely adapted by the industry so it is not unique to BMW anymore.

    I failed to see what's wrong with that statement.

    I would also argue about that nobody makes it as good as BMW. IMO BMW's "original" Bangle butt on the 7-series was probably the ugliest of them all. At that time I was a firm hater of this design cue but after saw the MB version on the S-class I found myself quickly warm up to it. Different stroke for different folks I guess.

    As for Azera, I still failed to see it resembles any other cars whether it is design cue, lines or the overall design scheme.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my Avalon is mistaken for a 7 series - all the time - as long as that person has got the proper view - from behind.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Azera design has a look of 1990's acura coupe
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Azera design has a look of 1990's acura coupe

    Riiiiight. ?

    image

    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Hmm...

    Nope, still not getting it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Alexstore...please stop, seriously!!! :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhh, but you are splitting hairs. You took my statement out of context. However, in doing so...you blew your theory out of the water.

    What did you expect BMW to get it right on the first try? Maybe they didn't, but they sure perfected it. Just admit you're not a BMW person and that'll settle that. SHEESH!!!

    You may be techincally competent, but obviously blind. You choose NOT to see the similarities the Azera has with other cars. Like I said before, you're the rare ONE that can say the Azera is a totally unique design by Hyundai! *snicker*
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Could we ratchet down the sarcasm and the personal comments?? Certainly we can disagree with each others' opinions, but there's no reason to be insulting while doing so.

    And btw, while I do understand how the BMW worked its way into the conversation originally, it really doesn't belong in this discussion so let's get back to the topical vehicles.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 3996: Here are more tests from Motor trend.Azera VS.Avalon
    Azera 0-60 6.8 1/4 mile 15.293.6 263HP
    Avalon 0-60 6.2 1/4 mile 14.896.2 268HP


    If the difference above is worth $4,000, I'll stick with the slug.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Interestingly enough, Hyundai actually invented the "Bangle butt" (i.e. Hyundai XG), BMW just popularized it ;)
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    IN my personal opinion it is worth to spend extra 4 k on Avalon then on Azera. Avalon is in many ways far superior vehicle. Azera just cost less is its only advantage.
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