Is Honda America in trouble?

robertsmx

Not exactly, especially for Acura. Even Civic sales are way down compared to last January.

nippononly

hasn't exactly rocked the buyers' world, has it? Up 3.8% is all it could manage despite being only a few months old? The new Pilot had better improve on those numbers. They added a model, the RDX, or else truck sales wouldn't be rosy enough to boast about as they did.

dtownfb

I'm surprised the Civic sales dropped. I guess the "low" gas prices may be affecting sales. I figured the Civic would be up and the Accord down. Still to see overall sales growth is a good thing. Also it was there best Janaury ever.

carguy58

"Not a great month despite the title."

Ah..January is usually a weak sales month in the US auto industry anyway. The Honda brand did good in my opinion sales wise in January but Acura didn't do so hot.

robertsmx

But compared to last January, the sales aren't so good, but also largely due to aging models in the lineup (Accord actually did better than last year, Odyssey and CRV did better too). Civic was a surprise, but as mentioned above, lower gas prices may be partly to blame for the drop (and that Civic was very hot when it arrived last year).

varmint

As good as I think it is, I don't think we could expect the same kind of enthusiasm that welcomed the first generation. That would be unrealistic, IMO.

It's been suggested that sales are hindered by low production. I'd wait a month or two before making any judgments.

varmint

Yes, I know January is not the best month. But the title on the page suggests this is a record breaker. When, in fact, the only reason for higher volume was an extra day to make sales. Without that day, they actually dropped 1.7%. That's why I added that comment.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad month. It's a decent month. I don't think it's realistic to expect every single month to be a gain over the previous.

nippononly

"It's been suggested that sales are hindered by low production"

Seriously? Hasn't the thing already been available for like 3 months?

jchan2

be attributed to the significant discounting the Accord is seeing?

anythngbutgm

Good assumption. I would agree with that.

varmint

Sorry Nippon, I don't know enough about the problem to answer that one.

I don't think the length of time on the market would be a factor, though. I mean, the Fit has been here in NA for the better part of a year and sales are still production-capped. My *guess* would be the assembly line is working with a new vehicle while, at the same time, producing Pilots and Ridgelines on the older version of the platform. There's gotta be some kinks to work out.

robertsmx

MDX actually had it best ever sales number in January. Sure it doesn’t look like a huge jump January a year ago, but several factors can contribute to that effect. And “deals” are a substantial part of it.
January sales of MDX over the years (first gen MDX was launched in Oct 2000):
2001: 3.4K
2002: 3.4K
2003: 3.8K
2004: 4.2K
2005: 3.9K
2006: 3.8K
2007: 4.2K

As you can see, only in 2004 MDX had sales comparable to 2007. Although MDX is said to be extremely successful right off the shoot, it sold better in the last three years than it did in the first three. Unless automotive sales slow down this year (anticipated), MDX should continue to do well. I think the new MDX looks good, especially from the front. If there is one thing I would change, it would be the rear bumper.

Also of importance to note is that the top trims seem to be selling well. And with the new MDX, thats quite expensive compared to old (two of three MDXs I have seen in my neighborhood have top of the line).

nippononly

Yes, yes, but the general phenomenon with a hot new model is for sales to rise a lot in the first 12 months. Look at CRV, look at the current Civic when it was new. Both had lease deals and Civic had about a gazillion special editions the year before the new model was launched. Yet both rose by percentages well into the double digits when the new models arrived. Look at the current TL when it arrived, it wiped out ALL MEMORY of the previous TL, and killed the sales records of the former TL and CL COMBINED.

A 5000/year rise in sales does NOT a hot model make...it means it's doing OK though. Now if it is really production-constrained as varmint thinks may be the case, that's a different story.

robertsmx

In a world where 4% annual growth can be considered impressive, I certainly won't discount a growth of 8%. The key here is sustained growth for a long time, as opposed to a big one with stagnancy visible in the horizon.

varmint

That's a tricky one. We could just be seeing something of an anomaly with January sales.

I mean, the '07 CR-V is doing fantastically well, overall. But when you compare the sales results for 1/07 with the last redesign in 1/02, the difference is only 667 units.

If we look at December 06, rather than January 07, the MDX was up 2,768 units over the original release of the vehicle. Which means the new MDX is selling 1.8 times better than the original in its first December.

I think we gotta look at bigger data sets before drawing any conclusions.

dtownfb

Agree. also everyone is forgetting that sales having been trending downward for the past few years. So to have an increase in sales during an historically slow month with overall vehicle sales down, is a good thing.

jchan2

That the MDX is production capped?

And I think the market is slower now than it was in 2002/2003...

carguy58

for the month of Febuary 07 in which they totaled 110k units vs 106K units in Febuary of 06.

Honda sold 96K units in Feb 07 vs 92K units in Feb 06.
Acura sold 13K units in Feb 07 vs 14K units in Feb 06.

The Accord was the volume leader for the month of Febuary of 07 at 30K units vs 25K units sold in Feb 07.

Honda total sales so far for 07 total 210K units vs 205K units sold in 06.

scape2

Another large recall for Honda.. Yet they will still rank high in quality?? Go figure..http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070320/AUTO01/703200- 370/1148 :confuse:

tallman1

Another reminder of why I don't miss the midsize sedan thread. :P

qbrozen

there is alot more to being high in quality. First off, is 167k units alot? Seems pretty small considering how many cars they sell. 2nd, they are DOING something about it before anything bad happens. That is a far cry from the "stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away" attitude that many other manufacturers have. Honda is typically proactive about their problems, which in turn keeps the number of owners actually affected extremely low, which in turn gets them good scores on those published rankings you are referring to.

rockylee

Special gain along with material, research costs contribute to 20 percent drop for automaker.

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070426/AUTO01/704260343/- 1148

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=120576?tid=edm- unds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

I can't believe Honda, has noplans for this car in the U.S. :confuse:

Rocky

john500

Honda has a good thing going with their Si model. High performance cars require a bit more engineering and will have a higher failure rate. There are a lot of nitwits in the US that will heavily modify the cars themselves (and void the warranty). Why should Honda put in the extra $$ and assume the extra risk associated with a high performance car when a person will assume all liability and void their warranty? I believe that Honda will never introduce the type R to the US market. It requires a savvy and patient consumer to force the manufacturer to produce what the consumer wants. US consumers have not displayed those traits.

bumpy

I can't believe Honda, has noplans for this car in the U.S.

The Japanese market always gets better versions of what is available here. They have better gas and are more willing to pay for stuff like that. The Integra Type R was available in Japan long before it showed up here.

rockylee

The Integra Type-R was a bad [non-permissible content removed] automobile.

Rocky

nippononly

Yes, it was. But it didn't sell well in the land of supersizing - it had a hard ride over those worst-in-the-western-world American roads, it cost more for what is traditionally perceived as less in America (it was a small car, plus it was decontented to make it a proper racer), and it got cancelled after a short run.

Honda won't ever bring the type-R here, while they have the SI on sale.

The new SIs have been on sale for a while now - anyone have numbers on how well they are selling? I believe Honda hoped to sell about 20K per year, coupe and sedan combined. That number made me think I would hardly ever see one at a dealership, yet my dealer always has several. Meanwhile the Fit is selling at a 50% higher rate, yet I have never seen one at a dealership unless they had a no-sale demo. :confuse:

rockylee

Well the Civic, is borderline as well on size. A 240 hp Type-R with the RDX engine would be pretty sweet. The Integra, was a unsafe car but would handle very well. I rode in a GSR version and it was slightly modified. That thing was fast and fun to ride in but like I told my buddy this thing is un safe. He agreed as he had a bigger honda called Accord. He now drives a Bimmer 325ci coupe last I knew.

Rocky

P.S. I'm yet to see a FIT. I believe I saw a Yaris oh about 2 months ago or so.

eldaino

Yes, it was. But it didn't sell well in the land of supersizing - it had a hard ride over those worst-in-the-western-world American roads, it cost more for what is traditionally perceived as less in America (it was a small car, plus it was decontented to make it a proper racer), and it got cancelled after a short run.

true, but i think things have changed since then. Despite what some may think, small cars are defintely on the rise.

They new type r's, while still maintianing type r philophy, don't really make you pay for your exclusivity; they still have creature comforts. As far as a stiff ride goes...that comes with the territory.

Did the type r integra get 'cancelled'? with type r's in limited runs in general are we sure this is what happened?

I know this discussion is about sales numbers, but with a product like type r, you make it hard to find so that each one gets sold. its not suppossed to be a car that anyone can just go get on the lot, it has to have the same approach vw has with the r32, and people will still buy it.

honda is releasing the mugen si here, and it has a track tuned supsension, so having a bumpy type r with more than just mugen specific supsension and exhaust and body parts would be much welcomed.

I know they probably wont release it here, but if they did, i don't think they'd have trouble selling it...they would just not release very many of them.

with regards to safety, i'm pretty sure that since the new type r is the new civic bodystyle, the saftey concerns are out the window.

nippononly

The only one with safety concerns is Rocky, who thinks anything smaller than a Hummer H2 or a GMC heavy duty inherently has "safety concerns". I think it's a Texas thing. :-P

Sure, I liked type-R. But they only brought it here intermittently because of slow sales. The type-Rs have often fought an uphill battle in the States because there is so much price compression in the small fast car market. The type-R faced competition from Ford with the Mustang for the old school straight-line set, small turbo models from other manufacturers, stuff like that.

If they brought the new type-R now, I am sure they couldn't sticker it less than $23-24K. Then it would compete directly with popular stuff like WRX, Mini Cooper S, Cobalt SS, GTI, and the list goes on and on. So will they? I think probably not, unless SI sales are through the roof and I'm just not aware of it. But as far as I know, SI sales are slightly on the slow side of forecasts.

rockylee

Well a Type-R would certainly improve Honda's performance image.

Rocky

nippononly

yeah, what I would really like to see is an Accord type-R to go with the Civic-R, but alas, with the very existence of the Acura brand, Honda America will never allow it. So that idea is DOA. :sick:

Honda needs to get off its butt and spend some money on new platforms and less shared models for Acura. Then the Honda line could finally expand without this glass ceiling of $27K dictated by the "other Honda brand". Not to mention the forced insistence on all performance models being Acuras instead of Hondas.

I WAS glad to see it looks there will be a future replacement for the S2000, based off a pared-down platform for the NSX replacement.

The next Accord had better be a superlative performer in all respects to maintain that Honda edge. Accord is morphing into a mommy-mobile with every successive generation, and while it is a nice car to drive, there are lots of mommy-mobiles out there. Look what happened to the Passat. It went from edgy to unremarkable - the only good thing about it is the turbo engine, and the goodness of that is masked by the cvar's overall traits.

rockylee

Agree....

Rocky

bristol2

Whoa there! Honda 's the only manufacturer to offer an affordable v6 with leather and a manual 6-speed. I want to meet the mommy that's looking for that combo!

bpizzuti

*cough* MAZDA *cough*

bristol2

Technically the Mazda is missing one gear but I'll have to give it to you.
My point was that Honda is keeping some performance spirit in the Accord. It does have around 40 more horses than the Mazda v6. :shades:

qbrozen

*cough* mazdaspeed6 *cough*

;b

i'd also have to argue for subaru ... BUT, their's is technically not a V6 ... it just outperforms one.

OH GEEZ... and how could I forget Nissan?
We do have some choices out there, fortunately.

bristol2

It must have been pre-lunch brain-dead thinking.... :sick:

Nissan, Mazda & Honda. I guess you cna add BMW but that is hardly affordable.

bpizzuti

I think Nissan, Mazda, and Honda is enough. We know GM and Ford are physically incapable of putting a manual transmission in a midsize vehicle, which means Toyota probably is as well.

Subie doesn't have a V6. Subie doesn't have a V-anything. :P However, they are disqualified, as their H6 doesn't get a manual last I checked.

What about Hyundai/Kia?

bristol2

Looks like Hyundai/Kia is auto only when you get a v6.

Can't believe Subaru doesn't do a manual with the h6.

Subaru and Honda are the only 2 that are in competition for my business and right now Honda gets it with the commitment to manual gearboxes. If Subaru can bring their talk of a diesel boxer engine to market, I would be very interested. I'd love to have the extra utility of a wagon.

I have to admit, I thought Nissan was CVT only with their v6 engines. Good to be proven wrong.

british_rover

Why even bother with the Flat 6 from Subbie as the flat turbo 4 is better anyway.

bpizzuti

Premium gas. The turbo 4 still requires it, but the H6 is going to regular. Significant savings given the cost of premium gas these days.

bristol2

I guess it's not so much the engine, just the commitment to manual gear boxes that concerns me.

rockylee

We know GM and Ford are physically incapable of putting a manual transmission in a midsize vehicle, which means Toyota probably is as well.

That's funny the G6 from GM, and brand new 08' G8 have manual options. Also the new 08' CTS, 08' Saab 9-3 as well. I believe the new Malibu, has a stick option also on the 4 cylinder.

-Rocky

stickguy

also has a stick available on the Fusion (4 cyl only)

nippononly

Toyota continued the manual trans for the Camry at the last changeover, so one is still available today for 4-cylinder SEs, LEs, and CEs. Heck, the Altima can be had with a stick in the 4 and V-6!

I'm glad Honda still offers a manual with some Accords, as it has the best shifter of this whole midsize bunch.

jchan2

I think the 6 speed manual in the V6 sedan sedan has been canned though; the 6 spd/V6 combo is now coupe only...

robertsmx

As it was at the beginning of last generation. 6MT/V6 sedan was offered with MMC (2006) and that may be true again with this generation, if Honda sees a market for it.

nippononly

a ringing endorsement, eh?!

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/FREE/310170003/1528/- - - newsletter01

They basically say bad exterior styling that rips off Hyundai (kinda mirrors my thoughts), so-so interior that seems cheaper than the last gen, good-but-not-fun to drive and a slug at low speeds. :-(

Not that Camry is any better in any of those departments...this could be the opening that Impala and Sonata were waiting for!

qbrozen

to be fair, they also say:
Thumbs way up on the way the car drives, which is what matters, of course.

and

After driving this model, we're seriously looking forward to driving the 268-hp V6, especially with a manual transmission in the Coupe.

I, for one, don't usually go back for seconds on a car I dislike. So I would say it is overall positive.