Grammar and the Peeves that Pet It

sterlingdog

Steve, I'm glad that you are watching and taking note of proper English usage. Let's iron this one out for you. My source is the Practical English Handbook by Watkins and Martin.

Rule 29e states that there are rigid conventions for the placement of punctuation marks with quotation marks. In American usage, periods, commas, etc. are placed INSIDE quotation marks. Example: "Well," Professor Badpenny sighed, "You should always study your lesson."

My quote above to isellhondas had the question mark placed at the end of the sentence OUTSIDE of the direct quote that he had questioned. This is because I am asking him a question related to a direct quote and the question is not part of the direct quote.

Now as to the verb tense, I wouldn't want to use the Past Perfect tense or it would appear that in 1956 I had the feeling that I would drive that car in 2008. Saying that I had rather drive the car today, places me in 2008 with a reflective thought. I could have said, "I would rather drive that car today." and it might have been a little clearer.

Hope this clears things up. I'm trying really hard not to make comments about grammar, etc, in 2008 unless you guys bring up a situation. I know that we need to stay on track, but I don't mind responding if someone wants to check on something. Thanks again.

joel0622

Oh crap, I would rather continue reading about weather or not the death penalty can be imposed for blocking a customer in then have the grammar police come back out.

sterlingdog

But in one of your previous posts you said that you sometimes learned from the Grammar Police. BTW, it's not "weather", it's "whether". :P

dad23

Oh crap, I would rather continue reading about weather or not the death penalty can be imposed for blocking a customer in then have the grammar police come back out.

ditto that...don't make us go for the Remove Watch link! :sick:

Kirstie_H

Posts moved from Sales Stories, to explain the confusing comments about not talking about grammar in the grammar discussion

stever

Cdnpinhead is (yet) another Steve.

"I was worried for a moment there."

cdnpinhead

have I created here?

Oh well, I still think I had rather drive it today is awkward, but then I'm old and stupid (sorry for the redundancy).

Pedantic comes to mind, along with several other words, but perhaps we shouldn't.

xwesx

It is awkward but not nearly as much as Joel's post.

mackabee

TO BE CONTINUED....
:shades: :lemon: :sick: :confuse:

marks5894

Bad grammar is very annoying but can be a serious problem also. The best example of this is an embarrassing mistake that a presidential candidate made very often in his speeches. I am refering to Steve Forbes in his bid for the presidency in the recent past. Each time he was interviewed or gave a speech my focus was to see if he would make " the mistake " again. I couldn't concentrate on the content of his answers/speech because I felt embarrassed for him and wondered why his team didn't stop him (or maybe they attempted to but failed ) from saying the two words that made him sound so unintelligent. Mr. Forbes would begin a sentence with the words " and also to " when he was explaining his reasons for supporingt a position.As an example he would say that we should tighten the security at the bordres to protect from terrorists entering the country and also to we should be concerned about the numbers of illegal workers taking jobs from U.S. citizens. Also to Mr. Forbes? The president addressing an audience of world leaders with "and also to " over and over in a speech; I couldn't take 4 years of that. Has anyone else noticed this and do you agree that it makes him sound unpresidential?

stever

“When Hemingway killed himself he put a period at the end of his life,” Kurt Vonnegut once said. “Old age is more like a semicolon.”

NY Times

mac24

Has anyone else noticed this......

Just a guess, but I think he's saying "and also too" rather than "and also to".
Obviously though, we're talking semantics here, comparing a redundant 'too' to a meaningless 'to'.
Certainly it's unpresidential, probably as much so as Bush's "nuculer".

mac24

Excellent article in that link, especially the correction at the end.

However, I wonder if the proper use of the semicolon is taught any more; probably not as much as we'd like it to be.

madmanmoo

I'll post a couple of sentences and then let you guys proofread them. Just make believe that the quotes are from a 3rd party.

1. Scott, are you "in"?

2. Scott, you are "in."

Is that punctuation correct? I'm 99.9% positive on the first one. I'm not real sure on the second. I want to punctuate like this ----> Scott, you are "in".

What do you think?

madmanmoo

I thought it would be a good jester on behalf of the dealer to offer some type of compensation.

:P

That cracked me up.

-moo

jlbl

I agree with you in that Scott, you are "in". is the correct form regarding the 2nd sentence. The ending mark (") only applies to in, doesn't it? It is akin to what occurs in the first sentence (…"in"?)

Just an alien's opinion, I keep waiting for more authorized ones.

Regards,
Jose

xwesx

I would include both punctuation within the marks.

Scott, are you "in?"
I am "in," replied Scott.
Excellent; Scott, you are "in."

madmanmoo

I know that the because the original quote of "in" was not a question, then the "?" would not be included inside the quote. The 2nd one..... I'm not so sure of. (Just like I'm not sure about ending a sentence with a proposition.)

:sick:

-moo

xwesx

I did not say the way you did it was wrong; I only noted how I would do it. I would include the '?' within the marks. If the "in" is not subject to punctuation in one sentence, why would it be subject to it in the next? Consistency

Kirstie_H

"they" like to change these rules (and rules about commas) every few years just so that it's nigh-on impossible to get right.

The current standard usage guidelines makes xwesx's punctuation correct.

kyfdx

For some reason, their and there are killing me.. I'm constantly editing posts to change it to the correct spelling..

Oh, Kirstie... here are some apostrophes, just for you

' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '

stever

They're hard to keep straight. :P

stever

March 4 was National Grammar Day.

Irregardless, here are the Top Ten Grammar Myths from the Grammar Girl.

kyfdx

"Irregardless is a word in the same way ain't is a word. They're informal. They're nonstandard. You shouldn't use them if you want to be taken seriously".

That's it.. I'm not going to take you seriously. :P

stever

However some do.

houdini1

Has anyone mentioned this one. Should the sign say "10 items or less" or should it say, "10 items or fewer"?

I think the answer is "fewer", but what if you had a situation where you needed a sign that said "10 items or more". More is the opposite of less but what is the opposite of fewer?

pat

The answer to your first question is definitely "fewer". You use "fewer" when you can actually count what you are talking about. You use "less" when you can't. For example "there is less water in my glass than yours but you have fewer ice cubes." (or beer or bourbon or whatever. :shades: )

That said, nearly every grocery store I've ever seen uses "less" just as in your example and they are just wrong. It is used incorrectly all over the place. This is indeed one of the peeves that pet me.

I don't know the opposite of fewer. Morer? :P

houdini1

I don't know the opposite of fewer. Morer?

I think you got it.

mac24

.............here are the Top Ten Grammar Myths from the Grammar Girl.

I like her, she's fun. I particularly like her example of when it's correct to end a sentence with a preposition:

"I'm going to throw up, let's kiss and make up."

houdini1

Reminds me of the college freshman who asked an upperclassman, "Where is the library at?" The upperclassman replied, "At this school we do not end our sentences with a preposition young man".

The freshman then replied, "Oops, sorry, let me try again. Where is the library at, [non-permissible content removed]"?

kyfdx

"there is less water in my glass than yours but you have fewer ice cubes." (or beer or bourbon or whatever. )


Uh.. No ice cubes in my beer, thanks..

stever

I can see that we're going to have to send you that ellipsis memo a few more times. :P

jlbl

Regards,
Jose

fezo

Hey! Don't go messing with my ellipses...

Using less when the proper word is fewer grates on me every time I see it. There should be a "10 items or fewer" line in stores that only English majors can use.

Oh, and the opposite of fewer is more. It's another one of those English language things. Just when you think you have a rule down there's an exception.

mac24

Oh, and the opposite of fewer is more.

How do you feel about "more or less", meaning approximately.

xwesx

I am still undecided.

xwesx

But there are many sentences where the final preposition is... necessary to keep from making stuffy, stilted sentences

Hahahaha. With such a noble goal, how could it possibly be wrong? :P

pat

The same rules about whether to use "less" or "fewer" apply pat, "Grammar and the Peeves that Pet It" #330, 8 Mar 2008 2:44 pm. Usually that phrase is applied to something that is not numerically quantifiable.

Kirstie_H

My daughter and I drove thru McD's a couple of days ago, where they had a professionally-produced sign that said, "Do not use cell phones in drive-through so that we can serve you quicker." Quicker, really? than what?

And, as seen in the Forums - "if you are adverse to risk." Yes, I am its adversary, and I usually win.

mac24

I most often see it in real estate agent's blurb, "2.5 acres MOL" for example.

The phrase "more or fewer" doesn't really roll of the tongue as well.

pat

Then maybe they should be saying GOT - give or take. I also don't think you can numerically quantify 2.5 acres of dirt any more than you can numerically quantify 2.5 gallons of water.

I didn't make the rule. :P

mac24

Yes, GOT could be used in place of MOL in that instance.
However, it won't substitute in some cases of non-numerical usage, i.e. "He more or less admitted to the crime."

Actually, the 'fewer and less' issue bothers me a lot less than some others; text message writing style in non-texting situations for instance. :shades:

stever

any more than you can numerically quantify 2.5 gallons of water.

I keep seeing that reason given for the more/fewer rule.

And then I think, I bet Tidester could quantify it down to the last molecule. Pf_Flyer would come close with his slide rule, but Tides would nail it exactly. :shades:

cdnpinhead

If you can count it, using integers, it's fewer. If you need to measure it, it's less. Both are numerical.

stever

Like I said, Tides could count every last molecule, LOL.

pat

Actually, the 'fewer and less' issue bothers me a lot less than some others; text message writing style in non-texting situations for instance.

Text message speak in other than a texting situation drives me crazy!! We may have already had this conversation here, but we're not too far off from no one having any idea how to correctly spell anything at all.

marygi

How does one get to be a medical editor?

qbrozen

practice practice practice.

oh, wait, that's an answer to another question.

Well, out of the 3 medical editors in my department, we all arrived here via different routes. I have a BA in English, but I prepped in high school and started college for a BS in Biology, so I have some medical knowledge. I've always just had a knack and an interest in that sort of thing. That normally wouldn't count, but I met the right person at the right time and was given a job at a pharmaceutical company working through a new drug application to the FDA. The rest is history. One person I work with now was a nurse in a past life. The other actually went all the way up through 2 years of medical school. How they got into editing, I can't tell you. I know several folks who wind up making that kind of switch will start off freelancing. Their medical knowledge obviously appeals to employers. After they get some experience under their belt, they'll move into it full-time.

bryan

I've just read through the thread, and identify with some of the posters' "peeves." I "literally" laughed out loud at several of the posts.

My biggest peeve these days--advice versus advise. For example, if I ask you for advice, you would advise me. You advise on which car to buy. I would seek your advice about the purchase of an extended warranty. Evidently the green underline (grammar check?) gets it wrong as I frequently consult the dictionary to be sure. Or maybe I'm wrong?

How about chose/choose? If you go back a few posts, you'll see how easy it is to get confused, like lose/loose as someone else pointed out. Oftentimes I have to read aloud to make sure I've used the right word.

When did conversate become a word? I understand it recently became "accepted" but oh, it sounds so wrong to hear "I conversated with Mary about that," instead of "I spoke with Mary about that."

Two more quick ones--use/utilize and in order to. Thoughts?

xwesx

Conversate is an accepted word? Hideous! Why would it be needed when we already have the eloquent converse? That sounds like laziness gone awry.

I must admit that I have not noticed a widespread misuse of "advice" and "advise." Maybe that is because my senses remain overloaded with the rampant plague of "I've got." :sick: