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Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans
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Comments
I am getting close to my "A" service for my 2001 C320 --I am at 9725 now. The service is due in 2000 miles, and I estimate the car will be a little over 1 1/2 years old when it goes in for service. I have checked with the District Manager several times whether or not I should have an early oil change, and his answer was always the same -- to let the FSS do its work and wait until the indicator light appears on the dashboard. (My car was delivered with Mobil synthetic.)
Miki
It's nice to know you are still out there. I, too, have no regrets (so far about buying the C320.
Am I still keeping that Obsidian Black sparkling, you ask? -- It puts other cars to shame! I follow the same procedure every eight to nine months (if I wanted, I bet I could do once a year)-- one coat Klasse All-In-One and two coats of Klasse Sealer Protectant. I use the California Duster before driving out of the garage and the Clear Pearl once a week. I do not wash the car myself, but bring it to the handwash carwash about every six weeks. I avoid parking under trees -- when that is impossible, it gets washed as soon thereafter as possible. Proper Auto Care has been tempting me with other products through their newsletters -- Souveran paste wax on top of Klasse, instead of Klasse Sealer Protectant and Sonus instead of Clear Pearl. The latter is tempting; whereas Clear Pearl contains #1 finest Brazilian Carnauba wax, Sonus contains the same acrylic protectant that is contained in the Klasse products.
However, that said, I don't know a thing about how and what and when to do under the hood!
Miki
Michhala, isn't Klasse such a wonderful product, I use it on my car about once every three months along with Souveran Pinnacle glaze and I must admit, the car looks amazing. I can't refrain from waxing at least once every three months because my car is my baby and I'm absolutely anal. The Pinnacle brings out the depth of the paint really well and should work extremely well with the Obsidian Black. I'm not sure if Mercedes paint is the same as it used to be but our 1981 gray market 500SL in Lapis Blue stayed shiny w/o waxing for 13 years before the paint bubbled during an exceptionally rainy winter in SoCal.
Good luck on your C classes, I'm trying to get my mom into an E class.
hi linard -- As addicted as I am (anal, too , I do not need to give the C320 a beauty treatment that often. Using the Eimann Clear Pearl once a week to clean and protect gives me my fix . Does the Souveran Pinnacle Glaze have the same good qualities as the Klasse Sealer Protectant?
<<I'm not sure if Mercedes paint is the same as it used to be but our 1981 gray market 500SL in Lapis Blue stayed shiny w/o waxing for 13 years before the paint bubbled during an exceptionally rainy winter in SoCal. <snip> And in case any of you were wondering, all of the problems were due to neglect, my parents just didn't care, the oil was changed when it got chunky on the dipstick>>
I believe the paint for the 1981 SL was oil based and more durable than the current water-based paint.
I guess your parents saved their TLC for you, rather than their Mercedes . I personally thank you for your post -- it is upbeat and reassuring.
Miki
jrct9454, how did the alignment turn out? Mine has had a right bias from day one and it has been aligned twice - without any change.
404c wrote: I would take a guess that your car's engine mounts may be faulty and are therefore allowing additional vibration to penetrate the interior. This is a known problem - with a service bulletin - ask about it at the MB dealer and they'll probably change the engine mounts for you. That should solve the problem.
My dealer acknowledges the problem but said that they checked for service bulletins and found nothing - there's no fix. 404c, if you have any further information I can point them to I would appreciate it. The vibration is starting to get so bad that you can feel it in the seats as well.
My parents really did not take care of their Benzes as they should but now I can handle that for my mom so no need to worry anymore when you're buying a used car fom us!
I have not used the Klasse Glaze, just the All-In-One, but I have to admit, the Pinnacle's price is hard to justify. Once I applied it to my car though, I was sold, the paint (a 99 Honda Prelude, so the paint isn't as glossy and deep as other makes) looked "wet" enough to swim in. I was deeply impressed.
BTW, have you seen the 03 C Classes headlights? I am a big fan, they're quite beautiful. The dealership also told me a single disk CD player is now 400 dollars which I don't think Mercedes should charge in this day and age.
We have over 6,000 mi. on the '02 C320 and it is the best car we've ever driven. I still find interesting features I didn't know about, e.g., all the windows go up automatically when you hit the recirc button, the sun visors extend out on their swivel arms.
I agree that 2003 will be MB's best year, ever. Their car line is so well integrated, from "C" to shiny "CL," and unit sales are spread widely across the group-- they truly have something for anyone who can appreciate MB's value. And, the company's quiet and persistence really has yielded something special, despite some spiteful reviews and reviewers who don't seem to be firing on all their cylinders.
The new E-Class surely must be the best engineered car available today. If I was a little older and didn't find ML's utility of greater value for our purposes, I'd love to have an "S," and the new SL probably is the most comfortable sports car you could hope to drive.
Excepting Porche's upcoming Cayenne sport ute, I don't see anything in the auto world that is as interesting and inspiring right now as what MB is putting out there.
So, by slightly increasing the right side caster over the left, the right side now "resists" changes in direction a bit more than the left. Bottom line: it now tracks straight with no wandering, without any changes in toe-in either front or rear, which were all within spec.
I believe the left side is carrying about 9.5 degrees of caster, and the right about 10.2 or thereabouts - the difference may actually be smaller, as my memory of what the machine said when we were done is not crystal clear.
Sorry if this is a bit hyperbolic, but the point is that there are things a good tech can do even when the usual suspects [toe-in, or tires, or tire pressures] are all otherwise OK. [Tires are often to blame when a car wants to pull to one side, but I had taken the precaution of trying all 4 tires on the front in various combinations before I brought the car in, and none of the combinations made any difference in the way it wanted to fall off to the right].
Yes, the 325 will feel a bit quicker around town, but once on the road, most of the difference disappears. For us, the tie-breakers were ride quality and quiet, which both favored the C, as well as the slightly larger trunk. We want a comfortable, safe touring car - if you want a sports sedan, get the BMW.
If performance is a concern, you should get the BMW and be happy; if comfort and general refinement for long trips is the point, get the Mercedes. I've owned many examples of both since 1967, and these distinctions have been there pretty much for those entire 35 years. In fact, we traded our '67 1600-2 for a '69 220 over exactly these same issues - I wanted a good long-distance car, and the BMW wasn't refined enough compared with the MB. These days, the differences are less dramatic, but still there.
Thanks.
The C320 climbs like a goat. Overall, we were doing about 40 mph on average in a line of cars to about 4000 ft. and the 320 engine was never over 2K rpm and I never felt a shift.
Coming down, I didn't have to wear out the brakes on the S-turns like the three cars in front of me that slowed over and over on 30 mph curves. Engine braking was all I needed.
I love the 320 but it is an opulence, e.g., the same engine that is in the 1,000 pound heavier ML, e.g., it would tow a 5,000 lb boat up the same mountain. The 240 is the same engine, but with a shorter stroke, so it's only 2.6L, and has a higher compression-- and it probably is all the C needs in most situations.
I've noticed in reading various rave reviews that owners who give 9s and 10s are pretty constant from among C230 and C320 owners whereas C240 owners seem to either love'm or merely just like'm at about a 50-50 ratio. That makes me think some of the C240 buyers probably would have appreciated more power.
I am undecided between this the Jaguar S-type...i love the S-type too...it gets alot more attention....but then i really enjoyed driving this car....what should i go for if they are around the same price?? Thanksss..
Any of you that have leased or bought one can you tell me what kind of prices you have gotten including the down payment, length of lease, mileage limits, gap insurance, etc.
Do you think one can get a better deal on a lease or on a purchase?
Any other info would be helpful. I am in Southern California.
Thanks,
Tito Aguirre
325i: 175 lbs-ft @ 3500 rpm
C 240: 177 lbs-ft @ 4700 rpm
Considering that the BMW develops its peak torque 1200 rpm lower in the rev range and that it is slightly lighter than the C 240, I doubt that there is any advantage whatsoever with respect to torque in the C 240. In fact, the converse may be true - you don't have to wind the nuts off the BMW's engine to be in the peak torque zone. The C 240 engine gets rather loud as it approaches 5000 rpm.
Our C 230 K with the 2.3 pulls like a steam engine, and since I've always driven 4 cylinder engines, I like its feel and sound. They're appropriate for a sporty car like this.
The new 1.8 sold in North America is not direct injection; it is good old indirect injection.
The actual difference between the caster on the right vs left was only about 0.25 deg, but there is some small toe-in difference, as well. So, "within spec" has been manipulated to cure the problem, and the car now tracks straight, will follow road crown to either side, and is completely neutral [you can take your hand off the wheel and it will track right on, as long as the crown is neutral] at any speed up to 80 mph, which was all I was willing to risk on our heavily patrolled freeway.
The bulk of the cure was to have a bit more caster on the right side, so the car doesn't want to "wander" that way. But I was surprised at how small the difference was - I also took a complete printout of the final alignment spec for my records, should the issue come up in the future.
Otherwise, the car, at 1000 miles or so, has been a delight in every important respect. I am especially impressed with the quiet and general refinement at speed, with longer trips no longer being the endurance tests that seemed to characterize our Toyotas and Hondas. And it is a noticeable step forward over our '94 W202 C [a C220] in just about every respect, notwithstanding the fact that the deal we got meant we actually paid less than we did for the '94.
To sum up, I too tested a pretty basic 325 before making the final decision, and the price for the 3er we tried [an automatic with only the sunroof as an option] would have been very close to what we paid for our more generously equipped C [about $30k]. But the BMW just didn't feel as quiet and comfortable, especially on less than perfect surfaces, as the C, so the handling advantage that the 3er enjoys just didn't cut much mustard compared with the space and general refinement of the C.
Anyone who takes the decision the other way would get no serious argument from me - it really depends on what you want, and we just don't care about the "sporty" advantage that the BMW has. For those who do, a lightly optioned 325 can actually be a mild bargain, if you can find one at your typical dealership. The car we saw was literally one in a thousand, and had been in stock a long time [for that matter, this was also true of the C we eventually bought].
Anyway, so far, so good...
I truly believe that what the dealership is telling me is a bit of a crock! Would they be a detrimental affect on the engine – I do not think there would be a considerable drop in performance or reduction in mileage.
Your comments would be appreciated!
Hey, you bought a Benz, why skimp on gas? If 85 Canadian cents per litre is too much for you to pay, maybe a 1989 Hyundai would have been a better choice...just kidding ;-)
Mercedes-Benz apparently did not want to invest in the extra tooling that would have been necessary to make a 60 degree V6, so they made a technical compromise by using the same boring equipment to do the V8 as the 90 degree V6. For a 90 degree V6 engine, it is quite smooth thanks to the counter-rotating balance shaft, but it's not as smooth as a 60 degree V6 typically found beneath the hood of a FWD car like a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Too bad, but no big deal.
But Mercedes-Benz makes a V12 too, which does have a 60 degree cylinder bank spacing. So why could the V-6 blocks could not be done on the V12 line? Probably because there is precious little production capacity for the V12 and it was cheaper to invest in new equipment common to the V8 and V6, higher volume engines.
As I understand it, as part of the "planned from the beginning" design, as noted, the V6's cylinders are not simply lined up on-center, and this, combined with a weighted crankshaft, produces as fine an engine as the more traditional 60 degree "V" design. Wards thought the E's 320 was among the top ten best for about three years running.
Having oversized exhaust valves instead of two smaller exhaust valves to make room for the twin-spark design wasn't traditional either but I give MB credit for their pioneering new ideas and bringing them to reality, usually with results that demand to be copied by MB's competitors, e.g., the new E's brake by wire that all cars will have someday.
Regarding the comparatively higher torque of the two engines, we'd need the torque curves of both engines to show what is happening there. The engine that reaches a high torque quickly and maintains it over a broad range has the most usable torque, i.e., the fattest horses.
A good example of that is the C320's engine which reaches a high torque at about 3000 rpms and maintains over a long flat plateau. However, I'm only assuming the same applies to the 240, based on the 320's example and driving cars with both 240 and 325 engines. Additionally, the 240 does have 4% more cubes and that always has been a good indicator of better torque, and I would think that would especially hold true when comparing engines with the same compression.
My guess is the BMW - here's why - engine architecture:
BMW bore x stroke: 84.0 x 75.0 mm
M-B bore x stroke: 89.9 x 68.2 mm
The BMW engine design is, all other things being equal, more likely to have good torque caracteristics than the Mercedes-Benz one due to its more "square" bore:stroke ratio. On the other hand, the M-B design might, theoretically, be more easy to rev.
Regarding your other point, I would not cite the Mercedes V engine head design as being anything that gave rise to copies from competitors, as it is not efficient.
When they chose the three valve design with the single exhaust port and two sparkies, the idea was to get a quick warm up in order to heat the catalyst(s) up as soon as possible. Mercedes engineers were on record at the time as stating that upcoming emission control standards in Europe and the USA could only be met with such a design. BMW and the Japanese manufacturers proved them wrong, and the restricted breathing caused by the single exhaust port proved to be detrimental to high-rev output and fuel efficiency.
BMW's equivalent engines are not only more powerful than the C Class' V6 engines, but they are around 20% more fuel efficient too. The upcoming Valvetronic versions will be even moreso. This efficiency penalty is tough for me to accept, and it's why I would not buy a present generation Mercedes V6. But I don't like the other aspects of the BMW much.
The revised head design for the Mercedes V engines will be coming out late in 2003 (according to MB Spy). It will include....4 valves per cylinder....and one spark plug per cylinder. Just like the old C 230 K four cylinder engine, and the new 1.8. The new V engines will undoubtedly meet upcoming emission control standards, be more powerful and significantly more fuel-efficient than the present version.
The three valve heads were an interesting experiment, but a dead end evolutionarily speaking, and not influential on other engine designs.
Of course Mercedes-Benz has pioneered many other technologies that were major advances, so I am not disputing that, but just pointing out that your example of design leadership was not particularly à propos.
Actually, two of these advances are causing problems on our 2002 C 230 K - we've had two ESP error messages and a BAS error message too in the past 4 days. We hope to get the car into the dealer later this week for a diagnosis and cure.
Iam not sure if you are interested but I may have found an exceptional deal that happens every 6 months. Caliber Motors Mercedes Benz of Anaheim Hills, sells their service loaners both C and E class. I leased(new car lease) from them a 2002 C320 Wagon with sunroof,3800 miles for $32,800. This is a 40K car. Starmark 5/100,000 warranty included. This was in August. They had 5 available at this price.(buy or lease)
According to the fleet manager this deal happens every 6 months. I stumbled on the ad in the LA Times, thought it was too good to be true. Went to their web site( great site, you can scroll thru actual inventory,pics and all), set up a test drive for the weekend, I was able to snag the last one(they go fast. while negotiating the deal, the rep received 3 calls on the car!) Great car/nice lines, I have seen a total of 3! on the streets of LA, and I run the 405 corridor to LAX daily. good luck.
Brian
Caliber Motors:
http://www.calibermotors.com/
C320 Sport Wagon:
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/main.jsp&modelCode=C320S
$1000 for Coupes
$1500 for both C sedans [240 and 320]
$3000 for Wagons
In our case, the deal resulted in $4500 off for a C240 with an MSRP of $34500 [$30k net]. The deal would be correspondingly sweeter on a higher priced car, assuming you find the right dealer.
Maybe someone can find the 240's torque curves. I've seen the curves for the 320 v 330 motors and the 320 reaches a higher torque sooner and maintains it over a longer range than the 330 reaches at its peak.
There will be big sacrifices in engine longevity due to the higher piston speeds required of the smaller bore 325 motor to develop close to the same power per revolution. I don't know the 325's heritage, but the stroke probably was increased to achieve needed displacement because there was no room for additional bore. The 325 also requires a higher 10.5 compression to achieve the same power. According to the engine manual, the 240 has a 10:1 compression ratio, just like the 320, so MSN's or some other site might have gotten that stat wrong. And, the manual also says the 240's higher peak torque of 177 is reached at 4500 rpm, not 4,700 as reported on Edmunds' site. The lower compression required indicates the 240's motor does not have to work as hard to develop a higher torque over its lifetime.
I think most persons would equate MB's motors with a longer life compared with the competition, and believe that in twenty years, there's a better chance of a C320, for instance, still being on the road with its original engine. Both the 240 and 320 have a huge 8.5 qt. engine oil capacity and also the same transmission as in the 430, 500 and even the hammered 55 AMG V8s so it seems certain to me that the C's also have lifetime drivetrains.
There's no reason to believe there is any reason for concern about restricted breathing due to one oversized exhaust valve instead of two smaller valves. A circle encompasses more area per like amount of circumference than any other geometric figure and it's easy as pie for a larger diameter circle to encompass more area than two smaller circles.
A 3-valve design also results in less complexity. This year, for instance, Wards picked the ML500's version of the 3-valve, twin spark engine as its pick of those among the top ten best engines.
MB's component engines also have variable intake runners which has only just now been copied by the competition for its newest engine in its latest flagship 7 series.
I'd think that rather than ending, it probably is just beginning as it is more likely MB's 3-valve, twin spark motors will end up powering a new generation of Chryslers. Ultimately, perhaps, the design will achieve a venerable status as one of the greats.
As to the future, yes, the 3-valve heads are going away, to be replaced with 4-valve heads and induction systems that will eventually take advantage of direct-injection, though the latter will be some time in coming across the board. All MB engines [except the brand-new 4 cyl family] will get new heads, induction, and exhaust systems over the next few years.
I think the original question was "does the C240 have enough power?" It certainly does in my opinion, but "enough" in the current driving climate in the US seems to evolve daily - I can't remember a time since the late '60s when everybody seemed so absolutely obsessed with hp. All I care about is that the car seems safe and comfortable on the road in real-world situations [on-ramps and passing]...everything in the current MB lineup in North America meets that test with ease.
If this were actually the case, then no manufacturer would have cars with more than two valves per cylinder. Cylinder filling is always improved in multi-valve designs. Also, very large "circles" for valves are kind of hard to fit into a hemisphere that has at least one spark plug in it. It is for these two reasons that multi valve designs are necessary for decent cylinder filling.
At the end of this year, the V6 component of MB's torquey 500 engine will debut in a special model ML350. The 3.7L ML350 apparently will replace the 320 in Germany entirely, so I've heard.
I don't know whether the 320 will still be available in MLs sold in the U.S. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see this more powerful 3.7L V6 in a future S Class models which now only offer the 430 V8 as the smallest engine option available.
Bouncingbob: I think it is great you went for a WRX instead of the typical Long Islander who runs down to the Chevy Dealer the day after it snows more and gets a loaded $40,000 Tahoe to drive back and forth to the LIRR station 2 miles from their home:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I've been thinking about switching to 93 for a while to see if there is a performance difference (not unhappy, just curious).
Is 93 too much? Could it cause any harm?
The MSN and Edmunds sites say 10.5 for the 240 and so does the MBUSA site.
The "203 Operator's Manual C-Class," Edition B 2002, that came with our 02/02 build-date C320 has specs and features for C240, C320 and C32 AMG and says all three engines have a 10:1 compression ratio.
I don't know what is right, but if the 240's compression is 10.5, using at least the minimum octane would be better for the engine, and 93 probably would be better yet.
By the way, my 240 is a '01 and the manual states 10.1 compression.
I am very big on getting separate wheels for this purpose. Constantly moving the wheels from one set of tires to the other is an invitation for something to get screwed up - if you're not a perfectionist about road vibrations and similar problems, it may not matter, but for people like me, this is too big a risk.
I was wondering if any of you chaps or ladies are heading to the gala going to be held by Mercedes in Toronto Canada (Wednesday Oct. 23rd 2002) 6:30 to 10:30 – need any more info contact (416) 588 7101 (25 British Columbia Road, Exhibition Place)
It’s going to be loads of fun, more cars and not to mention great food and wine!
Let me know,
Cheers
M
Get a separate set of wheels for your snow tires. Call up your local tire shop and talk to them -- they'll give you the same advice.