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Jaguar X-Type

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Comments

  • willngaylewillngayle Member Posts: 19
    I just brought my 99 XJ8L (with 41k miles) to the dealer because of a knock and vibration in the engine. After only a half day in the shop the svc mgr advised that there was something wrong in the "lower end" and they were ordering me a new engine. While I am greatful to be getting a new engine, I am still curious as to what was wrong. The dealer didn't explain the problem when I asked. He just said it would be more difficult to do a tear apart the existing engine so he was ordering a new one. Does anyone out there have any thoughts as to what could have caused an engine knock and why the dealer would be so willing to change out an engine. You gotta luv that Jag warranty. Like I said, I am very greatful. I'm just very curious as to what may have gone wrong. Thanks in advance for any responses. Bill
  • kiiwiikiiwii Member Posts: 318
    The prices that dealers charge Jag for warranty jobs are probably the same as dealers charge customers for out of warranty jobs. The dealers get more $$ from Jag when they work on more expensive warranty jobs. That's probably why they are happy to drop you a new engine.
  • scottc8scottc8 Member Posts: 617
    Often that policy comes from the manufacturer. Either they feel internal engine work is more than they want their dealers doing, or they want their own technical people to examine the failed engine without it having been worked on by someone else. Typical is the case of the Jaguar-based 3.9 liter V8 in the Lincoln LS. Failures of this engine have been extremely rare but, in those cases, the factory has sent a new engine without the dealer opening it up. On our owner's club site we've even heard of an engine being replaced for a ticking sound we suspect may have been a cracked exhaust manifold, a somewhat common problem with early models.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Well, the latest rumor is that Road & Track's issue for December 19th has an article in it entitled, "European Supercar Sneak
    Preview". R&T writes that an X-Type R with a supercharged 3.5
    litre engine will become available for purchase in the latter of half of 2003, most likely as a 2004 model.

    I read about the existance of this article on another board, and have yet to confirm that it is indeed a new article in the latest edition of R&T. I believe strongly that it is, but I will confirm it only when I see the article for myself. It sounds good though!

    (I told you a current X-type-based X-type R would arrive soon!)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-12-18-jaguar-gay_x.htm


    Interesting, huh?

  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    Yeah. So interesting that when posted on the jagtalk board it caused some intense comments for and against. It got bad enough that the board administrator called a halt to the discussion. Personally, I wasn't involved in the bruhaha.
  • lefty44lefty44 Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the informative information everyone has posted here. Think I've concluded that I will own my first Jag. I'm looking at a leftover 2002 X-Type at a Jag dealership. It's a 2.5L Automatic, with the premium and cold weather packages, plus a single disc cd player. The car has not been placed in service, and has 200 miles on it from being test-driven. The MSRP is approx $36,400 and the dealer invoice is approx $32,500.

    Realizing that even though the car comes "new" with the full mfg. warranty, it is still a year old in my mind. I'm thinking I shouldn't pay more than $28,500 for this car. Does anyone have an opinion as to what is a fair price to pay for a "new" 2002 X-Type with the options I've outlined above? I've never purchased a car from a dealer before.

    Thanks in advance.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That car isn't a year old. There aren't any significant differences in the 2003 models (IIRC). The only thing going in your favor is that it's been on the lot for at least a couple of months. Unless Jag is offering rebates or dealer incentives on the 2002 I think invoice or just under invoice is reasonable. The dealer probably paid around $31K for the car so don't expect to get it for less than that unless it's been on the lot for another 3 or 4 months (not counting rebates or dealer incentives).
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    You might be able to get some kind of incentive on a 3.0 litre, but 2.5's are the hotcake sellers, so the lowest I would expect is invoice on one of them. Jaguar dealers are usually pretty receptive to lowering prices a bit at the bargaining table, but they aren't going to lower the price to the point of not making any profit, so I wouldn't push it too far (but you should still deal for the car of course). Good luck, I hope you get the car - you won't regret it for a second. I know I'm overly enthusiastic about the car, but at times I wish we had paid the dealer more for the X-type (it's that good, IMHO). Have fun, and let us know how it turns out!
  • lefty44lefty44 Member Posts: 5
    akirby and jagboyxtype.

    You two were pretty astute as to what price for the 2002 2.5L.

    I ended-up walking out without making the purchase. Over the phone, the price I could get the car for without negotiation was $32,400 (plus tax & license fees). After some in-person negotiation at the dealership, I was offerred the car for $30,400 (plus tax and license fees). Obviously, there must be a Jag to Dealer incentive on the car.

    To me, the final offer from dealer still seems high...so I didn't purchase. My concern is that when I inquire to lease this 2002 car on a 4-year lease, the residual is based on a 5-year old car with 60,000 miles (I will drive it for 4 years at 15,000 miles per year). The residual 4 years from now is $13,500...which is a 5-year old X-type with the options I mentioned above and 60,000 miles. Based on that scenario, I still feel I am negotiating for a 1-year old X-type with 200 miles on it that has a 4/50 warranty and should pay accordingly.

    Oh well...I think it's a great car...I test-drove a sport and a non-sport...I liked the non-sport best for me, but it doesn't look like I'll be a proud new Jag owner.

    I won't be leasing the car, but I may only keep it 4 or so years...so the difference between what I pay now and its value 4 years from now is a yardstick for me. Maybe I'd be better off looking at a 2003 and seeing what the best deal is there.

    Thanks again for your input...much appreciated.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    There may still be some good news in the 2003's for you (I'm not trying to get your hopes up, it may or may not be of any help, but I'll just mention this): prices on 2003 models are streamlined in comparison with 2002's. Options are divided up into smaller bundles or into individually purchaseable categories that make the overall price of a 2003 slightly less than that of a similar 2002, plus 2003's come with a bit more standard equipment. That might just be enough to lower the price to a manageable area, and your car would be a brand-spanking-new 2003 versus a 2002. If something ever sparks within you and you decide to take a look once again in the future, this just might give you the upper hand. It's not much, but it does make the deal for you a little better. Good luck with whatever you decide to purchase, and I'm glad I was able to help out no matter how slight the degree of my aid may have been (usually I'll mess something up, so it's nice to know that I had some useful information to give). Thanks for the kind words, and again good luck and have fun.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    This X-type was rolled (pic is worth seeing although it is quite large):

    http://www.nauticom.net/www/rhricik/rolled.JPG

    Thankfully, the owner is quite alright.


    Here is part of what happened as described by the driver of the car during the accident:


    "Coming home from work on Monday, some 'less intelligent person' in an old Honda

    CRX decided to be in my lane - the same time as I was. Unfortunately, he/she/it

    did not use their rear view or side mirrors before they quickly cut. I had to

    swerve to avoid a collision, got into the gravel in the left hand side of the

    Interstate (I-79), almost pulled it back but a road construction sign caught my

    tail. I did a 180, slid across 3 lanes of traffic (missed everyone, somehow),

    went airborne about 10 feet and landed on the driver side rims. The car did a

    partial roll and ended up on its roof resting against the embankment.


    Somebody was watching out for me, because after unlatching the seatbelt that was

    holding me upside down, I crawled out of the car with nothing more than a

    skinned shin.


    Some things stick in your mind at a time like this, and this stuck in mine:

    When I reached over to the passenger door, to open it for the people helping me

    out, I released it with my little finger, and the door swung open. When I got

    out, I nudged the car door, and it quietly latched. This while setting on its

    roof! The windows did not crack or shatter or pop out on the roll, or when it

    settled on its roof...

    ...Yep, I will get another one. After seeing what it does in an accident, I'm

    convinced."


    The rest is here:

    http://www.jagtalk.com/forums/1/message.html?46280


    I'm so glad that the owner was not hurt. That's all that really matters. The bonus is that we know through a serious demonstration that the X-type is safe and sturdy. He said he thinks the "leaper" is back in the embankment (as you can see from the picture that it is missing), only 1.7 miles from his home. Just glad he came out of that the way he did.

  • kssodkssod Member Posts: 37
    My adriatic blue 3.0 sport with x1,x2,x3,alpine, xenons and manual is an early product with 15k miles, and I've had several small problems. So I thought I would trade for a 2003 like model to take advantage of the new refinements etc. What a joke !!.....2 Jag dealers offered 25k for a 1 yr old car that stickered for $43.5k. That's about the same drop in value as a Hyundai. Not a premium luxury marque.
  • scottc8scottc8 Member Posts: 617
    Resale stinks, seems to be the case on virtually every car these days. It's a constant complaint among the Lincoln LS owners I hang around with. It's nobody's fault; the used market is glutted with low-mileage lease returns, and there are tremendous incentives to buy new. Little wonder leasing is so popular.

    Some people hold up BMW as an shining example of high resale value. But you pay that money up front, unless you're of the opinion that BMWs are worth the money. I'm guessing most people on this board don't believe that.

    If you prefer to buy new, or drive so many miles that leasing doesn't work, better keep the car a long time. Or be prepared to take your lumps at trade-in time.
  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    My residual lease value is $22,465 after 39 months through Jaguar Credit. Obviously, the dealers you talked to just don't want your car or Jaguar was way off when they calculated the residual. This is for a 3.0, $41,500 car. That said, trying to trade a one year old car is just about impossible without a lot of buy-down money from you.
  • lefty44lefty44 Member Posts: 5
    That's why I'm not willing to offer more than $28.5 - $29K for a leftover "new" 2002 2.5L that stickers for $36,400. I've found other similiarly equipped 2002 2.5L and 3.0L X-types with under 15,000 miles on the web with dealer asking prices of $28,000 - $29,900. That's with no negotiation. But they are all at a minimum 300 hundred miles away. There are several with under 10,000 miles on them listed under $30,000, but again they are out-of-state. I'd prefer to buy within 60 miles of my home.

    Given that they'll give $25K for a 2002 3.0L with 15K miles that stickered for $43.5, they'll probably ask $29,900 for it at retail. That's a $7K more of a car (sticker) than the one I've looked at, but with 15K miles. Based on such, don't you feel that I shouldn't pay more than $28.5K - $29K for a "new" 2002 2.5L that stickers for $36.4K?

    A year from now and 15K miles later, the car I'm looking at will probably only bring $21K - $22.5K. Why should I be willing to eat more than approx. $7K in depreciation after one year of ownership on a car that will be considered two years old a year from now?
  • lefty44lefty44 Member Posts: 5
    May I ask when your lease started? I'm thinking residuals for all cars have come down in the past year or so.
  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    My lease started in Jan. 2002 so I have just made my 12th payment. Twenty seven to go if I don't opt out early. Have you checked a lease recently. I'm sure they will tell you the residual value. But watch it 'cause they can really play with those numbers as you probably know.
  • lefty44lefty44 Member Posts: 5
    Yes, I did check the residuals. On the 2002 2.5L that I looked at, the residual four years out with 60K miles is $13.5K. Again, 4 years from now, the "new" 2002 that I'm looking at will be considered 5 years old.

    On a similiarly equipped 2003 2.5L, the residual four years out with 60K miles is $16.5K. Both the 2002 and 2003 sticker for around $36.3K.

    I'd really like to only have a $15K difference between my cost and the four year residual. That's one reason why I offerred the dealer $28.5K for the "new" 2002...the other reason being that I feel that's all that 2002 model is worth here at the end of 2002.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Okay, with all of this talk, I went and asked my dealer about the resale of my car. Price was around $39,500 when purchased in March. There are 3740 miles on it to date. Price now: about $32,000 - $36,000. Am I the only one who got a relatively good price on the car? Does it have to do with location? I'm in Northern California, but am visiting family in the South for the holidays. I'll check price at the dealership here too and get back to "youall" later - wait, I'm in southern California, so I'll get back to all you dudes and dudetts later. I can't believe I just said that...
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Okay, I'll cut to the point: Radio reception in the X-type (and the other Jags for that matter) could be a whole lot better. The simply fact is that having the antenna stealthily concealed within the rear windshield's glass makes the car look a whole lot better since it doesn't have an antenna poking out of the body panels, (and when your friends want to know where the antenna is, it's fun to show them the "high tech" device hidden away within the glass), but it cuts down on how much reception and the quality of the reception we've been getting v. a normal antenna.

    This is only the case on United States Jaguars, as before being imported to the U.S., an "FM boost function" in the cars' software is disabled. Here is a quote from another board (X-type Central's webmaster, Chris) that tells how to solve the problem and get the radio reception cleared up:

    "The X-Type has a built-in FM gain boost function that is disabled by the software in the US market. Apparently, FM transmission is far too dependent on actual lines of sight between transmission towers, which makes reception really difficult in Europe, and seemingly less difficult here in the States. For those of us living in geographic areas with bad FM reception, we need to play games with the car to overcome this.

    Using the AM/FM/Cassette-Eject Setup Menu, change your market region from US to UK. This will erase all your stored radio presets and can't be helped. It also replaces the AM menu with MW and LW, which are the medium and low-wave frequency bands individually accessible overseas and are the equivalent of the US AM.

    You'll need to go back through and program all your presets again, but you should notice a signficantly improved reception level. The strength and resulting volume level for FM is now equivalent to that of your CD which makes browsing back and forth much easier without having to constantly adjust the volume settings. Program Types (PTY) are still decoded for the US stations, but interestingly enough the category names for PTY are slightly altered."

    The program he's talking about is accessed by pressing the cassette eject button and the am/fm button at the same time. Choose preset #0 and select "UK". This should really clear up the reception a whole lot, but your station numbers will be slightly altered (eg: closest thing to 1050 AM will be 1053 AM - doesn't really do anything, the 10 kHz increments will be just be slightly altered).
    _______________________________________

    And on resale, I could get around $34,000 for my car here in southern CA. The dealership I went to also became an Aston Martin dealership. They had DB7 Vantages and DB7 Volantes all over the lot, as well as one silver Vanquish. While I was there (about 30 minutes max), 3 X-types were sold as well as one S-type (bought by a man replacing his SL 500; he also bought a 1/18th scale S-type model). For Christmas, I received a new Jaguar key chain and Connolly Hide Conditioner among other things. It smells very potently like leather. There is also a new X-type money clip that can be purchased from the Jaguar shops. Of course, it is all outrageously expensive. The keychain looks good with the key-thing.

    Southern California is Jaguar land. I was born is S-CA, but moved up north long ago. Never saw many Jags in the south before, but my neighbor had bought an XJS while I lived there (I had thought it was an ugly car at the time - I kind of like it now though). Now, it's like the cars are BMWs (there goes the neighborhood). There is an S-type, X-type, or XJ8 at every corner. And XK's are more rare, but I see at least one or two of them per day. I like it! Don't worry, there are still many more BMWs and Mercs around than Jags here, and the Jaguars are still turning the heads of these snobby southern California types. Happy New Year (it's coming up) to you all!
  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    What dealer in So. Calif. did you go to just out of curiosity?
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Bauer Jaguar Aston Martin. (I think I spelled it right). It's around Orange County, and it's a pretty big dealership with a good selection of cars. It's kind of an "old school" dealership in that they pretty much won't talk to you unless you're dressed up properly and look like you have money to spend. (You have to go in looking like the royal family.) Dress nicely (suit and tie) and the people are very polite; they have many people who just go to look at the cars but have no intention of ever purchasing or being able to purchase a Jaguar or Aston Martin, so unless you look it, they won't go after you. Sales people all have British accents too. They have some "leftover" 2002 cars on the lot with discounts, but all of them were cars with "unpopular" option packages (like no sunroofs). They sell pretty well there otherwise.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    I tried out changing my X-type's radio programming as I described a little ways back. It is super! The FM is totally clear now, and it doesn't get interrupted the way it used to.

    Since I've actually gone through the menues, I can describe how to work it a little more clearly now. To access the different programming which activates the FM boost, do the following:

    1) Turn on radio.
    2) Hold down the Cassette player EJECT button.
    3) While holding the EJECT button, press the AM/FM button.
    4) The radio display should now read "US".
    5) On the number pad, cycle through the different world regions using the 0 buttion. The regions are: US, Japan, Aust (Australia), Europe.
    6) Press the 0 button until the region "Europe" is displayed in the radio display.
    7) Select "Europe" by pressing the AM/FM button. Your radio will now be set to European software programming, and the FM radio boost will be activated. FM radio stations will be much more clear and the signal will be much stronger. AM stations will be divided into LW and MW.

    Although I warned that station number intervals might be slightly changed by undergoing this process, I have not experienced this so far and all radio station numbers have stayed the same (eg: 1530 is still 1530). You can switch back to other world regions by doing the same process but selecting another radio world region.

    It really makes a world of difference.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    The British Sunday Mirror scoffed at Prince Charles today for hypocritically encouraging the purchase of British products and then himself buying truly un-British products such as German Audis and the like. The report says, "As an opinion informer and an heir to the throne Charles, more than any of us, should always be seen to buy British. In fact, he has a moral obligation to do so."

    Following that, the Sunday Mirror article reads:

    "And don't give me any of the guff about there's no such thing as a British car any more...

    He could choose between four very fine British-made cars - the Jaguar X-type, S-type, and XJ, and the very fine Rover 75."

    The author goes on to "shame" the Prince, but isn't it nice to know that out of the four British cars fit enough for royalty, you drive one of them? The MotorTrend X-pert roadtest of the X-type also concluded that the X-type was "fit for the queen". It just goes to show that 1) we have better taste than the Prince of Whales, 2) the X-type is one of the last truly British cars (it isn't built in Munich like that new BMW Rolls Royce - giving up its heritage and such!), 3) the X-type is a "very fine" automobile (but we already knew that), and 4) much of the royal family really is inbred.

    Well, I thought it was funny...

    The article was slightly complementary towards three of the four Jaguars - including the "baby Jag" X-type - to have been mentioned as some of the last "very fine British-made cars" that are also eXcellent enough for royalty.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    JAGUAR World Monthly, the magazine dedicated to true Jaguar enthusiasts, ran a cover story titled, "The Real Deal," in its January 2003 edition. The article "explores the controversial topic of what makes a 'real' Jaguar". The conclusion the investigation reveals is that today's Jaguars are more true Jaguars than past cars, and ends saying, "Sir William [Lyons, Jaguar's founder,] would have regarded today's products as true Jaguars in every sense of the word."

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


    I agree with the article, and here is some of our reasoning:


    As we know, some very vocal people who call themselves "purists" or "traditionalists" (and [jealous] owners of Jaguar's competitors) say that current/modern Jaguars from the X-type to the XK, S-type to the redesigned 2004 XJ, "are not real Jaguars". They believe that the "last real Jaguars" were cars like the Series 3, the MK 2, and the original Jaguar, the SS 100. They say that Jaguars today are simply nameplates, and the Ford killed Jaguar. They point out parts-sharing, saying that cars like the X-type are nothing more than "badge-engineered" Mondeos (or worse yet, Contours) that dilute the name, and they'll go so far in deriding the cars as to make up lies about them, saying that they share parts with Fords that they truly do not share, and will even call the cars "Forduars".


    Well, here is reality: Modern Jaguars, such as the X-type, S-type, new and current XJ, and XK are truly more Jaguar than any of the cars that Jaguar has previously built. Even with the selective parts "sharing," modern Jaguars still have more genuine Jaguar-made parts, and they also exhibit more "Jaguar-ness," than 'old' Jaguars. In otherwords, modern Jaguars are more pure-bred than past Jaguars.


    PARTS SHARING

    Our so-called "Mondeo-based" X-types actually only *share* six hardpoints on their floorplans with the chassis of the new European Mondeo - nothing is in common with the Contour/Mystique/Cougar. AutoWeek can confirm that these 6 floorplan hardpoints are truly the only shared parts between the X-type and the Mondeo (see their "Jaguar X-type: We Drive the X-type along the River Wye and do the math" test and review of the X-type @ http://www.autoweek.com ), and the rest of the floorplan, platform, and chassis are all authentic Jaguar parts. The JAGUAR World Monthly article also notes that only a "small portion of the Mondeo's floorplan pressings" - those hardpoints - are shared with the X-type.


    -When the X-type first hit the scene, competitors and "purists" derided the highly anticipated car to the point of also saying that besides those 6 floorplan pressings (which they of course said was the entire X-type chassis - again, completely false) they also said that it *shares* the same suspension and engine with the Mondeo. Those statements are also false; the X-type has its own suspension and does not share its suspension with the Mondeo sedan or the compact suspension of the wagon. The AJ-V6 Jaguar engines use significantly ribbed and re-enforced variants of the aluminum Duratec engine BLOCK, and nothing more. Everything from heads to engine mounts are genuine Jaguar-made. Remember that the Aston Martin V12 also began as two Duratec blocks, and with the help of Cosworth (who does the engines for Jaguar's F1 cars, as well as much of the technology used in Jaguar's AJ-V6 and V8 engines) became what it is. The Jaguar engines are true Jaguar engines.


    -Jaguar deriders then say that even though the only actually shared parts are six floorplan pressings, "real" Jaguars do not share any parts with any other cars, nor do they even use modified components. They say that Sir William Lyons only used parts that were made exclusively for Jaguars by Jaguar.


    Oh yeah? Really? Sir William Lyons first cars in the 1920's were actually simply coachwork put onto other marques' chassis - the 1927 Austin Swallow (Lyons first company had been the Swallow Sidecar and Coachbuilding Co.) is a prime example. He used his own Austin Seven as the guinea pig, and then put his coachwork onto it, thus creating this "new" car and the first step towards Jaguar. The Austin Swallow was followed by the Morris-based Cowley Swallow, and this early version of the Jaguar company also built bodies on Alvis and Clyno chassis among others. In 1931, the SS1 - THE ancestor of Jaguar - appeared using a 16 horsepower engine and the entire chassis supplied by the Standard Motor Company. The smaller SS11 was launched at the same time, using 1052cc Standard Little Nine running gear. The SS90 sports car also used Standard-supplied parts, including its 20 hp, 2663cc engine, as did the SS100 "Jaguar" that appeared six months later.


    When the Sunbeam Motor Car Co. went bankrupt, Lyons tried to buy it but was beaten to the deal by another company. Had he bought Sunbeam, the Jaguars of the time would have not been based on Austin, Alvis, Clyno, and a vast amount of Standard parts, but would have become sheetmetal on Sunbeam cars.


    Sir William Lyons, along with Harry Weslake, redesigned the Standard engines into the Jaguar inline sixes and V12's with engineers Claude Baily and Walter Hassan (much like Jaguar has done with the AJ-V6).


    Throughout the classis car period, all Jaguars but the low-volume XK120 and E-type had body shells built by outside suppliers. Every single Jaguar saloon/sedan’s body shell - the single largest component in any car – was built by other companies. Today, the X-type, S-type, and XJ have their body shells and chassis built in-house by Jaguar. Cars like the MK 2 and MK VII didn't. Right there, the modern cars are more pure Jaguar than their ancestors.


    LOCATION

    -Desperate to prove that modern Jaguars really aren't Jaguars, these deriders will then say that only real Jaguars come from Browns Lane, not Castle Bromwich or Halewood. They'll also say that all of the outsider engines and chassis that Jaguar used in the past were British, not foreign the way the new Jaguar engines are.


    Hmm. Truly? In 1966 Lyons put his deputy managing director F.R.W. 'Lofty' England in charge of thinking up a replacement for the MK 2. The car they designed used a 1.5 to 2.0 litre V8 Climax GP engine, a British Motor Corporation (Jaguar Cars merged with BMC in July 1966, forming British Motor Holdings) or Alfa Romeo chassis, with a body that would have been built and painted at Castle Bromwich. The target was 50,000 cars per year sold (that’s like BMW 3/ Honda Civiv sales today – not exclusive at all. Even the X-type is still exclusive even as the best selling Jaguar). The car they actually built was based off an Alfa Romeo Guilia Sprint, and the stylist for the new "Jaguar" MK 2 replacement did more work for Lotus and TVR than he did for Jaguar. England said the car would "look like a Jaguar, go like a Jaguar, and be pri

  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    …priced like a Jaguar". This car, approved of by Jaguar founder Sir William Lyons and his famous design and engineering team, would not be powered by Jaguar, not be built on Jaguar parts, and would not be built at the only Jaguar factory at the time. The single reason the ready-for-production car was not built was because British Leyland Motor Corporation - who owned Jaguar at the time - thought it would compete too much with the Triumph and killed the project. Even though it used no Jaguar parts, Lyons and England both considered their MK 2 replacement a true Jaguar. Today’s Jaguars use few outside parts and are built by Jaguar – they most definitely are real Jags.

    OWNERSHIP OF JAGUAR CARS LTD.
    -Jaguar deriders, now no longer able to argue the parts-sharing card or the location card - as 'old' Jaguars share more parts with other cars than any of the new Jaguars, and because all Jaguars are still built in England and an 'old' Jaguar was almost built by non-Jaguar people outside of a Jaguar factory - will point to the Ford ownership of Jaguar as the reason why today's Jaguars are not true to the marque.

    Yet, Sir William Lyons had repeatedly admitted that Jaguar could not and would not be able to sustain itself as an independent company. He knew his small company did not have the funds to sustain itself, thus all of the merges with BMC, Daimler, and Leyland. In the 1980's, Jaguar head, Sir John Egan knew that Jaguar had to be connected with another larger company in order to survive, and went into discussions with General Motors - you know, behemoth GM - in order to save his failing Jaguar Cars Ltd.

    GM would have probably sucked the life out of Jaguar and turned it into another Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet, Cadillac had it been successful in buying Jaguar. Insiders from the time agree that Jaguar, had it been bought by GM, would have ended up being badge-engineered GM products. Ford, took note of the talks between Jaguar and GM, and was prompted to do a hostile takeover of Jaguar. Jaguar had been owned by several other companies that had severely limited what it could do, and Ford, who not only pumped billions back into a nearly dead Jaguar, but have also given it tremendous creative freedom, is criticized for owning the marque. Jaguar has stayed Jaguar through numerous merges and takeovers, it will continue to stay true under Ford's ownership - and it isn't owned by Ford North America, it is owned by Ford Great Britain, which is considered separated from American Ford - it's still British. And it’s certainly better off as a unique marque under Ford Great Britain than as another GM car "division". The JAGUAR World article also mentions that thanks to Ford, the new Jaguars have something the old ones will never possess: “a quality level undreamed of by the ‘old’ Jaguars”.

    STYLING
    Jaguar deriders finally will say that Jaguars are even starting to look like other Ford cars, notably the Mondeo or Lincolns from the rear (a truly weak argument). Some will say that Ford stylists are trying to create Jaguars, or that Jaguars share body panels with Ford cars - FALSE.

    From the time that late head stylists Geoff Lawson joined Jaguar in 1984 to now with Ian Callum, Jaguar's styling departments have had no influence from any outside force, including Ford. In fact, Lawson joined Jaguar while many of the original stylists from Lyons's time were working, and he and those same teams styled the 1998 - 2003 XJ-Series, the S-type, the XK-Series, and the much of the X-type. After Lawson's death, Ian Callum came in from Aston Martin (DB7 stylist) and finished the X-type's and new 2004 XJ's styling (which may be why they resemble each other but are still distinctly different in all of the important ways). The stylists for the current Jaguars made it a priority to preserve what they call the "Jaguar DNA". The rounded rooflines of the X- and S-types, and now the new XJ, are to evoke a modern interpretation of the old Jaguar sports sedans - MK 2, '60's S-type, etc. - while the tails preserve "Jaguar triangularity" with their angled lights, etc. Even Edmunds.com blames Jaguar for the angled lights trend that is around now, which is also used by Mercedes-Benz and some of Dodge's cars (both owned by DaimlerChrysler BTW). Edmunds.com notes that Mercedes only changed to the Jaguaresque lights after Jaguar had them. Who did Hyundai also copy with their taillights? -Jaguar, because as always, Jaguar is still a style leader. What car do Infiniti J30 drivers say their car's trunk/boot was modeled after? -The sloping tails of Jaguars. Whose roofline did Infiniti G35 drivers compare their car's roofline to? -The curved rooflines of classic and today's Jaguars.

    So you see, today’s Jaguars use more genuine Jaguar parts than old/classic/”real” Jaguars even though they do share a few unseen, selected and modified parts with other cars. In fact, since every ‘real’ [old] Jaguar ever created uses parts from another car from chassis to engine to outside built shells/structures, it is almost a Jaguar tradition in itself to use some outside parts. The only tradition that today’s Jaguars break is using less outside parts than the old Jaguars. When Sir William Lyons first introduced his Standard and Austin-based Jaguars to the public, he asked them how much they believed the cars cost. With their stunning looks, they naturally evoked responses from the public that were hundreds and thousands of pounds more than what they actually cost (affordability and undercutting competitors’ prices was also a Jaguar tradition for a while - X-type is restoring that too). Today’s Jaguars do the same, as even the Edmunds.com reviews of preproduction X-types evoked prices between $50,000 and $75,000 when they asked bystanders how much they believed the X-type cost. My friends think I’m driving an $80,000 Jaguar and even asked me why I didn’t go for a Mercedes SL 500 instead (they don’t listen when you tell them it didn’t cost nearly that much) - so the cars still have their stunning looks. They also have some of the best rides available from any marque, while also being performance-oriented enough to compete with the fastest of competitors - more pure “Jaguar-ness”. Today’s Jaguars are real Jaguars in every sense of the meaning behind the marque - even more so than their ancestors - and anyone who questions them truly knows nothing about Jaguar and any attempts at deriding the cars are an act of futility. These are the real Jaguars.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    The 30 second X-type advertisement where the X-type clears the way for a huge snowplow that is followed by the rest of the traffic on a snow-covered road can be downloaded here:


    -MPEG Version (Windows Media Play, et al) 352 x 288:

    http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/video/xtypead.mpg


    -RealVideo Version (Real Player) 320 x 240:

    http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/video/xtypead.rm


    I only downloaded the MPEG version as it had a larger viewing area (352 x 288). It is surprisingly clear as a full screen picture (press Alt+Enter in Media Player to see full screen), especially for an MPEG video.

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


    And here's the "Quote of the Day" from the Town Hall:


    "Well, I am beginning to like all these "entry-level" luxury cars. I have completly fallen in love with three of them lately, the Infiniti G35, the Lexus ES300, and the Jaguar X-type. All great cars, I really see no reason at all to bash them. Anyway, I have to sign off for this evening."

                             -NEWS&VIEWS: A luxury car for eveyrone, msg: 147


    (This person had hated "entry-level" lux/sports cars until now; Merc C-Class, BMW 3, and Audi A4 have taken a beating in that discussion. Glad the X-type escaped with positive words!)

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


    Well, I guess I'll wait for the rest of you to read through all of this before I post more. What's wrong, cat got your tongues?

  • geecheewheelsgeecheewheels Member Posts: 18
    It sort of rankles me that Jaguar has decided after already starting the delivery of a few months of the '03, to change the steering wheel to the leather/wood combination. Though the look is very classy, the $500+ price for the swap out is rather steep. Has anyone heard anything about this?
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    It's expensive because they have to also install new a new airbag and sensors, etc. when they replace the steering wheel for safety purposes. I thought it would have cost at least $1,000 to replace the wheel, so the $500 - though still steep - is better than what I had expected. My birthday's in February, maybe I'll get one then.

    _________________________

    RESALE (again):
    I just checked Kelly Blue Book pricing on 2002 X-types (go to http://autos.msn.com and click on X-type, then Used Pricing). The prices are between $31,000 and $37,000 - that's holding its value pretty well, especially considering that the new 2002 cars started at $29,350 or something - they're getting more valuable with time!

    A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL! I should have also wished you all a Merry X-mas a while back too, but I missed my chance, so I'll have to wait until next year.

    P.S. - It's raining heavily here, but the X's AWD has been fantastic. I shouldn't be, but I am doing 70 mph in several inches of rain around town, and am easily passing sliding Lexuses and slipping Bimmers (they're quite slow in the rain, you know). I even saw an Audi slip around - didn't see if it had Quattro or not though. I love driving in the rain with the X! Hitting massive puddles and causing huge splashes with the car - and not slipping - one bit is awesome. Makes me appreciate the car even more, and this is in California, which doesn't really get "bad" weather. Oh yeah, you should all really try the radio thing I posted about - even next to power lines, the radio doesn't cut-out anymore!
  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    Well, depends what you are looking at with the Kelly Blue Book. I just went to Kelly and looked up trade-in value which is what most would be interested in and it shows $27,000. This is for a 3.0 with the Alpine, X1 which stickered @ $41,5000 and has 10k on it. Not a particularly great value.

    As for hitting those puddles at 70mph, be careful as AWD is of no help if you hydroplane.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    Jagboyxtype, just a couple more details on what you posted regarding "real" Jaguars...First, Jag has been buying transmissions from Borg-Warner and General Motors, and outside vendors such as Bosch (German) and Lucas (Yup, British) have also contributed parts over the years, so outsourcing is nothing new.

    Now, and a minor nitpicking point, the styling for the 1998-2003 XJ's was introduced in model year 1995. 1998 saw a new & improved engine and better interior, but save for a few minor details, styling was unchanged from the 1995-1997 models.

    Also, after Jag took over the Damlier company, Jaguar's MkII sedan was offered under the Damlier name with Damlier's 2.5 liter V-8 engine developed for the Dart (about the only thing good Jag got out of that takeover, IMO), so a V-8 Jaguar is nothing new for those of youthinking a XJ8 is no better than a Series III XJ6 with a 350 chevy under the hood. Nor is the V-6 new. Remember the XJ220 supercar from the early '90's? Turbocharged V-6's motivated those kitties. Just goes to show there's nothing new under the sun, although even if I had the money for a new XJ8, I'd probably still prefer a pristing Series III just on looks alone.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Thanks for the extra info - I hadn't seen much of it before. Also, the thing with Location, Jaguar's Browns Lane factory was a Daimler factory before Jaguar moved into it between 1950 and '52, so even the factory had to become truly Jaguar.

    On the styling of the 98-03 XJ versus the 95 (and perhaps its just me), but I can tell the cars apart from 100 feet away. The grilles (to me) are noticeably different in overall shape, and the 98-03 XJ looks much more rounded off than the 95, although both cars are still quite similar in overall appearance. The 98-03 also looks "heavier" to me.

    And thanks for the V8 and V6 engine info - I've even had the XKR attacked for having a V8 and not a 'real' Jaguar engine like an I6 or V12. It's rediculous! Happy new year!
    __________________

    Desertguy-

    Thanks for your hydroplaning concern. I always keep one wheel dry though ;-) Happy New Year.
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    Hi everybody. I read your enthusiastic posts but could not find any specifically indicating size of engine. After buying a little house on a Pennsylvania hilltop I was looking around for a AWD. Not being extremely convinced to buy an SUV after tens of years of Firebirds (oh, no!RIP) and on my way to a Subaru dealer, I stopped by at a Jaguar instead and 2 hours later I found myself signing and making a deposit on a x-type 2.5. As I had not done any research on the x-type Jag (and Jaguar in general) before stopping by there, I did not know the difference in the engine noise between the 2.5 and 3.0. Therefore even if noticing that after 50 mph acceleration the engine sounds like kind of cheap sound, I fell in love with design, maneuvrability, braking, awd and, why not, the lumbar support automatic stuff and decided that well, one cannot have everything when having something (that that's the way x-type is). I did not even inquire about 3.0 thus did not drive it and said yes to the 2.5 As they did not have the (white) car in stock I was supposed to have it come from another state in a couple of days.

    After getting home I did a post-deal research and found that indeed "under full throttle, the 2.5 engine sounds ragged but the 3.0 growls nicely." What should I do? Try the 3.0 and after that switch if sound is pleasant for a muscle car oriented ear, or you think that the 2.5 will accomodate me (or rather I will accomodate to it) in a certain amount of time. Additionally I have a slight tinnitus (ringing in the ear) which the high pitch "ragged" sound of the 2.5 over 50 mph could aggravate. Oh, what sorry I am that I did not try the both before deciding on the 2.5 (as not knowing this noise difference)! Please those of you who have a 2.5 tell me if sound does not become bothersome in time if it scratched my ear in the first day. Or those of you who posted before me so enthusiastically, please indicate if your enthusiasm stayed even if having a 2.5. If you have a 3.0 please state so. I am very bothered by this problem that I have before finalizing the closing. Any verified advice will be greatly appreciated. Have a very Happy New Year!
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Hey marchie! Happy New Year!

    I have a 3.0 litre X-type and the car does have a nice deep growl under moderate to hard acceleration. The sound is not "ragged" at all (at least to my ear), though it more pronounced in comparison to my S-type - it sounds like the performance car it is.

    I've driven 2.5 litre X-types, though not enough to really pay attention to the sound of the engine. 2.5's do sound slightly different (if memory serves), but not a bad different - maybe slightly less throaty or something. When I got my X-type 3.0, I initially noted that the engine was quite loud [in comparison to my S-type, whose "spooling-up" engine sound I had gotten used to], but now I enjoy the X-type's engine sound a lot as well as the sound of the S-type.

    The X-type with either engine has been critically acclaimed for the sounds of its engines. One review in particular writes:

    "Something must be said about the sound of the V6 engines. The English are an essentially auditory people; you can be ranked socially merely by how you sound (think Eliza Doolittle), so perhaps it is no surprise that much attention has been given to making the X-Type engines sound right. They do. A driver might actually search for some stonewalls to motor between, touch the instant-down on the window and smile at the reverberation... When you try one on be sure to search out some plate glass windows to mirror your passing. And reflect the sound of that engine."

    Really, it all comes down to you. You haven't bought the car yet if it still has to arrive (I assume), so you are free to test out other X-types as well before truly making your purchasing choice. I'd recommend going and test driving a 2.5 until you remember how it sounds pretty well (you might even get to like it in that time) and then go test drive a 3.0 litre. Get the one that fits you the best. The only drawback is that the 3.0 costs a little more than the 2.5 - both are great cars though, and I think you'd become acustomed to, and even begin to enjoy, the sound of the 2.5 litre. Happy shopping, and have a wonderful 2003!
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    Thank you Jagboyxtype. I will let you know how it was on Thursday. Happy everything!
  • ezaircon4jcezaircon4jc Member Posts: 793
    I believe the airbag is seperate. The wood/leather wheel may indeed cost $500. The wood/leather steering wheel for the S-Type's sister car, the Lincoln LS, is about the same price, $450 IIRC. The leather wheel is ~$200 less expensive. I have both wheels and prefer the wood/leather as it is a tad thicker. It is relatively easy to change wheels.
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    I verified at the dealer both 2.5 and 3.0 and I will remain with 2.5. Both sound nice, I don't know how I heard it first "ragged". I hardly wait for the babe to come, but because it comes from another state I will have it only on Monday, they say. Good luck everybody with everything you have.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Glad the engine sounds worked-out for you. Tell all about your car when it arrives. Have fun driving and owning the X!
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    I hardly wait. But now I run into a not at all known problem: the running-in of the AWDs such as Jaguars x-type. I read about the ENGINE braking/running in rules for the first 2000 miles. Though I also read that "this rule applies not only to engine but all movable systems" and that one should "go easy on hilly roads," I do not know what to do with MY specific hilly snowy road in PA because they do not describe the technique to "go easy" and to "run-in" the (specific)AWD (and not engine) CAPABILITY: Should I only go there after the 2000 miles done on horizontal roads? Is there any specific technique to run-in the AWD cars WHILE in AWD situations such as a hilly slippery road? Please help. My car arrives soon and I wanted to use it to go to my 150 miles away PA house where I only can get after I go on a 1 mile hilly slippery (icy/snowy) road. Thanks.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Don't worry at all, marchie, your car will be fine. The engine break-in period is at most 1,000 miles on these cars, as most of the actual break-in period is done at the factory for the engines. All that really means is, don't floor the car too many times in the first 1,000 miles, and don't use the cruise control in the first 1,000 miles as you want the engine to vary speeds often in the break-in period.

    As for the AWD, you also have nothing to worry about. As the car always has a 40% to the front 60% to the rear torque split unless slip is detected where power must go to other wheels, the AWD system is always engaged. No matter what conditions you are in, the AWD will be working, so the only break-in period that it would need or experience is the one that is really for the engine (since you won't be trying any 0-100 mph sprints to beat a best time in the first 1,000 miles, etc.). In other words, you only have to break-in the engine, the AWD is ready to go; you can take it to your hilly, snowy road in PA without any concern.

    Have a good time! (And don't worry!) Your car is for the most part ready to go when you get it.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    "Drove on light snow (very slick and icy)yesterday. Bad news!! But I would have had the problem with any car. They don't do well on ice. I slid through one intersection and the traction and stability systems turned on. Needless to say, I slowed down."
    -from a CTS owner from the Cadillac CTS board, message 1744.

    Actually, he wouldn't have slipped on ice with the X-type, at least not nearly as badly. X- is a great snow and ice handler. Some members on the "other" Jaguar X-type boards that we aren't supposed to talk about (I'm not talking about the other ones *here*) said their X-types compared favorably to their 4x4 SUVs in the snow and on the ice. I guess it's like that X-type ad with the snow plow I posted 2 links to a few messages back.

    "Saw a baby Jag in person for the first time and they are gorgeous!"
    -from the Mazda 6 board, message 57

    "[X-type] is all Jaguar."
    -from Car & Driver 2003 Buyers Guide. The X-type is in the LUXURY CAR section, not the 'near luxury' section.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Member Posts: 241
    Maxim Magazine (no, I'm not a reader, I just found this on the net) created a Flash game on the internet where you "get behind the wheel of a Jaguar X-type."

    The game really isn't all that great, and you don't really drive the car, but it is "interesting" to check out if you feel like you have time to kill. You can also choose between an Adriatic and Titanium X-type to take on your trip. Needless to say, they found the car "sexy," and its "X"-designation went over well.

    http://www.maximonline.com/contests/jaguar/

    Prizes can be won for high scores in the game...
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    To continue the discussion about the first miles a car has to be driven in a special way (even if it comes prepared from factory), I have one more, and last worry before The Big Encounter: its mileage already had.

    Today I go to pick her up but as it was ordered from somewhere else, it will have "about 20 miles --says the dealer--" on its odometer. Hmm. First when I asked him how many miles it has, he said "between 5-10," but after the second question he said that it comes from Hempstead (to NY), "that is about 20 miles away." I was very upset that they drive the car instead of have it carried to the place of pick-up (and also that Heampstead is 50, not 20, miles away. I then asked for who drives it. He said "a very good driver." Please JAGBOYXTYPE, or whoever knows the answer: what should I do at this point? I want a brand new car (with NO mileage on it) as I PAY a brand new car. But forget about the money. They say that depreciation starts with DRIVING car away from dealer's lot. Isn't this a similar situation, as it is DRIVEN from (even if ANOTHER) dealer's lot? PLEASE ANSWER A.S.A.P, MATTER IS URGENT.

    Thanks.
    M.
  • geecheewheelsgeecheewheels Member Posts: 18
    The dealer in my town has cars that are used for test drives, the actual car you purchase usually is still "wrapped-up". Mine, when "unwrapped" had 8 miles on it, which is usually from the factory to the shipper. My bill of sale indicated the odometer reading at the point of transference.

    If in fact your car is new and not a demo model and that Jaguar dealers follow the same procedures, your new car should have minimal miles on it and be "unwrapped" and prepped by YOUR DEALER.

    As for transferring the vehicle from one dealer to the next, I am surprised they would take the liability in driving it, not least the fact that as a premium vehicle, out of respect and courtesy to you that they would INSIST on flat bedding it.

    If it were me, I would definitely have a contingency that allows it to be refused.
  • desertguydesertguy Member Posts: 730
    Many dealers do dealer trades and have the car driven (actually they exchange one vehicle for another) from the exchanging dealer. They always say they have excellent drivers of course. The car will always have a few miles on it. Hopefully after they "unwrap" it a mechanic gets in and drives it 3 or 4 miles to make sure it runs properly.

    An alternative for you would be to go with the driver and drive your own car back from the dealer who is providing the trade. Another
    alternative is to order your car from the factory. That is if you can wait that long!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you feel that strongly about it, either pay to have the car trucked to your dealer or get another car. Anything up to 50 miles is quite normal. Think about it - your new car will have 50 miles on it within the first day or two anyway. As long as there's no damage (rock chips, etc.) I don't see anything wrong with it. If you don't like it then keep shopping but it's quite normal for the dealer to do that.
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    Well, it is done. In the papers they said it had a 15 miles odometer reading, actually it had 30. I took it. Strangely enough in their "title" they were mentioning a third dealer's name (not the PA which transferred to NY one) but California. Hmm. I am not sure if just one day is enough but bringing her home from the dealer was a pleasure. I will tell more after next week I go to PA house (snowy/icy) uphill. Thank you very much for your input.
  • geecheewheelsgeecheewheels Member Posts: 18
    I took my X in for some routine items, didn't take long. However, while I was there several customers needed a loaner car. Can anyone who has used the loaner tell me the "procedure" in receiving one. From what I observed, it is MUCH different from my previous years with Infiniti service.
  • marchiemarchie Member Posts: 11
    My new baby was a doll, both on ordinary highway and the very icy hilly road going to my PA house. The only unpleasant surprise was the more than 3 ft high snow covering the 400 ft driveway (and I do not have a snow blower!). It is true, it does not have the power of the Trans Am, but the Trans Am does not have her talents. And she is so beautiful! My dog slept for the first time on a flat surface, most of the time (which is unusual). I have put about 400 miles on it already. I am very happy with my new car and I am very disappointed with the sale decrease of the Jags X type here in the US threatening with its extinction.
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