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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...
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You know nothing about buying habits and buyers justification, buyers remorse. You need to take a few classes in selling, marketing and some psychology classes...and get back to me.
The beauty of the hot hatch is that it is a car that perform a double duty by being a blast to drive yet be very pratical and haul a lot of stuff. The hatch door and tall rear design makes this possible. Even the Miata-sized Mini can take on a lot of gear for this feature. I really only included the Celica, RSX and Tiburon because I knew people would argue that they too have rear hatches and should be included. Yes they do have hatches, but I think of them more as fastback coupes. Their rear ends are designed all slick and swoopy so they look kewl. While the GTI, SVT and Mini have a boxy rear end design as a result of trying to keep some functionality.
So while an RSX type-S might out perform a GTI. Performance isn't everything in this thread. The GTI offers similar performance, but is a lot more useable. That is what we are here to discuss. (at least I thought so)
Never be fashionable? You haven't seen the billboards? You haven't read all the comments about people staring, gawking and asking about the car?
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Next you'll be telling me a jeep is an SUV. The name hatchback was great when it first came out. Now, ever car including many sedans have a HATCH and fold BACK seats. The word HatchBack means nothing anymore.
hahaha ; )
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No, I'm an impartial observable this way. Now, I'm starting to understand. So the "Anti-trend" is the reason for not liking the car....
Tell me why I shouldn't buy a Mini S based upon an educated experience of the car...
ahh, the sound of silence
Car classes...we seriously need to take a look at those. The SUV, a cross between a truck and a car, now, theres the SUV cross between an SUV and a truck. And the hatchback cross with a sports sedan to give us a sports hatchback. Its very difficult to classify cars...there are hundreds of different types of cars for the millions of different people.
A car is as much an individual choice as there is....
"Tell me why I shouldn't buy a Mini S based upon an educated experience of the car... "
Did anyone ever say "don't buy a mini?"
If you wanna buy a Cooper S, be my guest.
If you want everyone to tell you how smart you are, how objective your decision was, how great the car is, how it's the best car out there, take a hike.
"No, its about 22 year old idiots sitting on a Internet discussion board that "helps people decide on buying cars" wasting their life away talking about something they've never driven or have no experience with."
So what does that make you? an annoying middle aged man who likes waste his life away trying to irritate 22 year old idiots on the internet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Minimike - wish you the best of luck with your new car. I believe you are waiting delivery on the Mini S? The car is supposed to be a blast to drive with a unique styling.
Yes, I do remember Carter and his downfall.
All of a sudden, this board has gotten very entertaining!
P.S. - Who is the 22 year old whipper snapper? If so, who cares how old the person is as long as he is informative and unbaised. I have seen 60 something year-olds seem much less mature than 21 year olds.
And now back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch! Thanks for your participation.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
The same is now true with the SUV truck hybrid. Are these SUV's with a small truck bed or are they "extended" cab trucks?
I have no real problem with the idea of a hatchback but once the 4 door hatchback came and then the sport hatchback came...and then sedans took on some hatchback features, it sorta is a "worthless" term as this point....it means really virtually nothing.
These vehicle classifications are soon to come to an end. Take the PT cruiser...what is it a van, a sedan, a hatchback....
I thought the Mini was stupid too. Yeh, I'm an older guy and a thought this is a kids car...maybe it is. And, who in the right mind would own such a small, potential dangerous car. I test drove based upon a friends recommendation based upon what I told them I was looking for.
My mind was changed within my 5 minute test drive. The MINI is fast...in most cases at least as fast as most of the cars listed and in many cases faster. Its tight, stock out of the factory, the sport suspension and front and real anti-roll stabilizer balls, bull dog stance, ASC and DSC make this car literally stick to the corners like glue or to drive you out of trouble. I'm sorry, but these are advanced BMW computer electronics and basic physics about the design of the car that can only be duplicated by building a car of similar small square shape. The car is as wide as most cars just not nearly as long. And, then its got gobs and gobs of BMW standard things in there.
It doesn't matter in the end, every person prefers a different car....that's why there are so many different cars. I'm either getting this car or a porsche.....I figure I would start with this one and then get a porsche when I get older. If you don't want to draw attention to yourself, then this is not the car for you. And, there is nothing wrong with that and that's ok. But, you should just own up to that and say I want a car like everyone else and I want to stay away from fad cars cause I don't want to look foolish driving a car that's not a fad anymore. Who cares if the PT cruiser or VW bug II was a fad, I bet the people who own these cars still like their cars despite any fad ending anyway. You buy things that make you feel good and if buying a fad car makes you feel good for even one year....DO IT. We all do eventually die...
What confuses me is your apparent need to belittle the other cars in this test in order to bolster your own decision. I test-drove three of the six mentioned here (Celica, Tibby and the RSX-S) and came away from all of those test-drives highly impressed. My decision ultimately came down to "which of these excellent cars has the edge?" rather than "which of these doesn't suck?"
I liked the idea of the Mini S, but didn't want to buy one without first driving it, which seems to be the going arrangement for those cars around here.
If you're happy with your decision, leave it at that. Otherwise we may start to think you have buyers remorse.
BTW, don't challenge me at a stop sign, because I will blow your doors clean off...
Bonus points if you know (or remember :-) what criteria was used for rationing what days you were allowed to take your car to the gas station.
Americans were all driving large four doors. A country called Japan introduced several fuel economical vehicles...The HatchBack was born....But Hatchback back then meant cheap, inexpensive....
Good points all. In fairness, the early Japanese cars WERE cheap and inexpensive. They had thin sheet metal, often not galvanized, that would rust out quickly. They had vinyl covered seats that would get brittle & crack in the winter. A few, such as the 1971 Subaru FF-1G, even came with (gasp) tubed - not tubeless - tires.
Since those days, things have changed a lot. The quality and reliability of Japanese cars are but one example. But for some reason, the hatchback as a design type has retained a stigma of being ugly and cheap, instead of as a really pretty smart (perhaps elegant?) design of efficiency of form.
The "Hot Hatch" subclass started with the VW Rabbit GTI (1981?). One thing that does seem to be synonymous with the class is that they tend to be FWD, for otherwise, we technically need to include GM's F-Body twins - Firebird & Camaro.
For those reading here and considering something in this class, the question to ask is - why aren't the F-Bodies really considered part of this class? What is the defining difference?
-hh
I travel constantly and get to drive tons of cars and have driven virtually every make (not every model though). I have also owned Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and Mazda and of this list I would vote for the order as follows based upon my preferences:
(1) Mini (I like if for so many reasons)
(2) Celica ( Toyota cars last forever, there is Toyota and then there is everyone else..you'll never go wrong with a Toyota)
(3) RSX (This car looks nice)
(4) GTI (VW gives you a solid, comfy well designed feel)
(5) CIVIC (I just hate Hondas...I think they pale compared to Toyota...Every Honda I have had parts have fallen off)
(6) Tiburon (Well Hyundai has little resale value. They are a good value if you buy new. I don't like the look of this car though)
SVT..I don't know this car....
Personally, I hate the Focus because of its looks and quality, but it does target this segment.
I've seen the Mini a lot on Manhattan streets, and it's eye-catching (now, anyway), but it is SMALL! How are its crash test ratings?
I've seen a few Civic Si's too - tight car! Eye-catching as well, in the Honda idiom.
I'm done squabbling...I done made my point.
However, I was thinking about the cars huntzinger listed, Firebird, Camaro which Edmunds list as a sports hatchback....They also list the corvette but I think the price puts it way out of this class.
Crash Tests....who buys a sports coupe based on a crash test? Sounds like getting married with a "Pre-Nump" I think BWM is known for safety though, the mini has 6 air bags you know. US NHST must buy the vehicle "stock" from a dealer as a blind purchase and because of the backorder, I think they are still waiting.... But in European crash tests, it did OK/Fair, it got 4/5 stars on the listing See here. http://www.euroncap.com/ratings.php3?id=superminis&order=1
But you can never be too safe....
Folding rear seats does not a hatch make. Sure "every car" (almost) may have folding seats nowadays, but are you seriously trying to say that a (2003) Camry is a hatchback? If it has a trunk it isn't a hatch.
"(3) RSX (This car looks nice)
5) CIVIC (I just hate Hondas...I think they pale compared to Toyota...Every Honda I have had parts have fallen off)"
You do that Acura is merely a Honda sold at a different dealership (outside-of-Japan only), don't you? There isn't that much difference between an RSX and a Civic Si except for exterior/interior design.
Mike
Folding rear seats does not a hatch make. Sure "every car" (almost) may have folding seats nowadays, but are you seriously trying to say that a (2003) Camry is a hatchback? If it has a trunk it isn't a hatch.
I'm not saying anything...
I was going my Edmunds list of what is a hatchback...http://edmunds.com/new/type/hatchback/all.html
Now, I think you are starting to understand what I'm saying. Go here....
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/chevrolet/camaro/z282drhatchback57l8cyl4a/prices.html
Its in the hatchback category and called a hatchback. I think the hatchback category was extended a long time ago to include cars with tiny trunks that look more like a hatch. You can virtually put all sports cars in the hatchback category especially once camaro, corvette, and others are sitting in there.
I don't consider a Camaro a hatchback class of car. Sure it has a hatch, but in the classic sense of the term a hatchback is a small car with a rear hatch. I'd say the term hatchback started back in the early 70's (Pinto, Civic, various Toyotas) and the Hot Hatch term started with the first GTI in 83 and included various Toyota's and Honda's of the day. I've also heard this class of car refered to as pocket rockets. When I hear the term hatchback I and I believe most people think of a small car with a rear hatch. Hot Hatch most definately refers to the GTI, Civic, RSX, Tiburon, MINI class of car. No one I know of would refer to a Saab or Camaro as hatchback even if it has one.
2002 Chevrolet Camaro Sport Hatchback
Z28 2dr Hatchback (5.7L 8cyl 4A)
Also, their trunk is a hatch (although the exact definition of that eludes me)
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/159741.jpg
How come a Camaro listed as a hatchback by Edmunds and the manufacturer and with a hatchback is not a hatchback but the Mini is? The Camero is "not" a big car, its a 2 door, mainly 2 seater with a fold back rear seat and a hatch. How do you justify kicking it out of the Hatchback category?
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I like that simple definition. That makes the Camaro a Hatchback. Of course, my Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV is also a Hatchback.
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Oh wait, that has 4 doors so it is disqualified from the hatchback class....but the Camaro is clearly a hatchback then.
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Oh wait, that has 4 doors so it is disqualified from the hatchback class....but the Camaro is clearly a hatchback then.
What about the Explorer Sport with the two doors then? Is that a hatchback?
If the hatch door is at more than a 45 degree angle from the horizontal, it is a hatchback.
If less than 45 degress, it is a fastback.
If the car has ground clearance over 6", it is a cross-over or SUV.
If the thing has a hatch and is intentionally made to look like a sedan, it is a notchback.
Then:
The Camaro is a fastback.
The Civic Si and Mini are hatchbacks.
The Explorer Sport is an SUV.
The Saab 9-5 is a notchback.
Haha. Problem solved.
Except with the Beetle or AMC Pacer. I think it is at a 45 degree angle or close to it. Like i before e except after c, always an exception.
I think I'm going to have to go find my protractor and check some of these angles.
1. Toyota Quality
2. Toyota Resale Value
3. Most fun to drive according to all the car mags.
4. Exotic car styling at a bargain price.
5. Great gas milage, 36 MPG on the highway.
6. Design by Calty Design Studio
7. 60,000 mile powertrain warranty
Honorable metion to the
RSX: Honda quality with a great warranty, nice interior.
Hundai: nice styling but the resale value is poor.
Mini. Fun retro style but it is a foot shorter that the Miata.
Cheers
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/209269.jpg
Also, despite the idiotic ways in which people drive them, SUVs aren't cars. They're trucks and as such aren't subject to car classifications.
While the term "hot hatch" is debatable, what constitutes a hatchback is actually fairly clear (although a 4-door VW Golf does sort of blur the line between a hatch and a wagon).
And the Tiburon is a hatchback? Look at http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/209269.jpg ....that's not a hatch...that's a trunk. The window stays put and the little trunk opens up like on a sedan.
...
Maybe it does open the window....I've never driven one of these.
Dude you need to get down to the Hyundai dealer!
That window goes up WITH the trunk. It is a hatch. Nicely disguised, but hatch nonetheless.
Look at the back window wiper. It is off the "trunk" and props onto the back window. How could the trunk go up alone without bending the wiper.
The Tib sure looks like a Ferrari in that photo ... tho ... props for that. The whole car looks good except for the fugly headlights.
You know what is funny, the SVT Focus has the same gearbox (Getrag unit) as the MINI Cooper S. Different gear ratios (as I've learned here!) but the same box.
Well, the author had faith that since it was a Getrag, it would be fixable with some adjustment. Don't know about Getrag quality, but SVT workmanship may have played a part in the poor setup?
BMW has a tie with Ford whether they like it or not, with the whole Rover mess. Gettin' ugly ...
Has anyone seen a Mini and an Expedition in a picture, face to face? I'm curious to see the Ex's bumper height compared to the Mini. Good thing the Ex has a blocker beam underneath ...
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Getrag (Bavian made) transmissions are probably the "best" there is....how is that funny exactly?