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Comments
Carleton does not even own an Echo and I do. If anyone should respond to a post about the Echo, it should be me.
As far as Carleton's "offending" post goes, I found it to be very restrained compared to some of his. And I did not find it to be a slam against any particular car especially the Protege.
I found your comparison of the Echo to the Cavalier to be objectionable given the Cavalier's poor history of reliability, its inferior quality compared to the Echo, its poor crash test performance, and it being uncomfortable.
FWIW, I don't think the 150hp engine of the Cavalier makes it that much faster than the Echo. I don't know because the only figures I see are for the Cavalier with an automatic transmission which makes it slower than the manual transmission Echo.
Do Carleton and I share the opinion that the Echo is overall the best low end car? Well, I bought the Echo when I could have bought any of the low end cars on the market. And I am very happy with my choice.
If Carleton thinks the Echo is the best car in any category, do I share that opinion? No, I don't.
Again, this is a public forum and so you have to expect that anyone viewing your words is going to respond even if they are not the person those words were directly directed to.
I was just throwing out 5'8" as an average height.
I disagree with Car and Drivers assessment of the Sephia's handling.
If I have to choose between Car and Driver's review and my wife's review, my wife wins. She loves the car. And as they say, if momma's happy, I'm happy.
I could not make heads or tails of the Mazda figures. Don't blame Backy for getting it wrong.
The Honda figures were a little easier to figure out.
I did not click on the Toyota link since Backy said the information he relied on would not be there.
Unless and until someone can provide us some figures on used car sales, all our speculations as to why Hyundai and Kia are enjoying sales growth will remain just that, speculations.
I guessed wrong and made a mistake.
Personal Pick
1. Nissan Sentra
2. Mazda Protege
3. Ford Focus
4. Hyundai Elantra
5. Honda Civic
6. Dodge Neon
7. Toyota Corolla
8. Daewoo Nubira
9. Chevrolet Cavalier
AND:
Recommended Pick
1. Mazda Protege
2. Ford Focus
3. Nissan Sentra
4. Hyundai Elantra
5. Honda Civic
6. Dodge Neon
7. Toyota Corolla
8. Daewoo Nubira
9. Chevrolet Cavalier
Here's what they said about the Protege: "So how do the least and most expensive cars in this comparison test land within one-tenth of a percentage point of each other? Easy - the Hyundai was cheap and good, the Mazda was expensive and excellent; effectively arriving at the same final score" Or "And at $18,300 we knew the Protege wasn't going to be the value leader. So where did this third place finish come from? Check the editors' personal and recommended picks and you'll see that the Mazda rated an 86.4% and 88.9%, respectively. That averages out to an 87.7% when it comes to whether our editors would either buy a Protege for themselves or recommend one to a friend. The car is just that good."
Do I detect a trend here?
But it does hold an unfair advantage given it was designed for the racing market in the first place.
"Garnering first place, by a wide margin, for its exterior design, the Mazda received comments that ranged from "best looking car in the test" to "chiseled, upscale appearance with tasteful chrome accents." Interior design was also a Protege strong suit with quality materials throughout and logical gauge/control placement."
"Enhanced by a taut and well-damped suspension, Protege was the "driver's car" of the group, winning the hearts of our editorial team with its unmatched fun-to-drive factor."
My town sold the most Kia's in the US during July. Most Kia's around here are being sold to young people and/or people with little or no credit. They don't have much money and when given a choice between a new Kia with a long term warranty or a 2 to 3 year old Toyota/Honda with little warranty left, and the cost is the same, they will choose new. Not everyone is worried about resale. We are now living in a society of instant gratification and new is better.
"With a high fun-to-drive quotient, traditionally trusty reliability, a roomy and comfortable cabin, DEALERS WILLING TO SLASH STICKER PRICES (They did for me), and dashing good looks, it's hard to beat this Mazda. This is the one I'd buy for personal use."
Some small cars skimp on safety features, but Sephia matches the class leaders with air bags, adjustable three-point seatbelts, and an internal emergency trunk release. Its chassis structure features integrated front and rear crumple zones, steel bracing in each side door, a collapsible steering column, childproof rear door locks and rear infant seat restraint anchors.
Take a Sephia out for a test drive and it sells itself with zippy acceleration and precise road manners. It particularly impresses with tight control for steering and the independent suspension.
The Koreans have obviously figured out how to develop and build a nice Japanese-style compact sedan without the mark-up inherent with Japanese pricing. The fact that these models lock out vibrations and noise makes Sephia an even better selection.
www.newcartestdrive.com
Personally I don't care for reviews. Opinions are like A**holes, everybody has one. The only one that counts is your own.
Why do you need to see used-car statistics, anyway? We are talking about the NEW car market here, correct? I think the picture that the sales figures paint is pretty clear (even if Toyota doesn't have a News Archive for their sales figures). Allow me to illustrate with an example. We are talking about the entry-level new car market in the U.S. A certain number of cars are sold within that market in a given year. Let's say for the sake of discussion that 1.1 million cars will be sold in that market this year (I know that's way off, but this is an example.) Let's say that in the previous year 1 million cars were sold in the same market, so the market overall increased 10 percent this year. Say you have two cars, A and B, that fall into this market. In 2000, A sold 100,000 units and B sold 100,000 units. So they each had 10% market share in 2000. In 2001, A's sales decline 15% to 85,000 units while B's sales increase by 20%, to 120,000 units. The respective market shares for 2001 are A, 7.7% and B, 10.9%. B has gained market share on A. If some buyers of B may have bought a used car instead of B, that is not relevant to the discussion of market share. The point is, they bought more B instead of A, for whatever reason, even though A is in the same market segment as B. For that matter, both A and B, being in the entry-level market, are competing with used cars for buyer dollars. It's just that B is competing more effectively than A. Even if B's sales were flat, it would still have gained market share on A because its growth rate would have exceeded A's. This is not a phenomenon unique to the car business, it's true for the sales world in general.
So when we see the sales of car companies like Hyundai increasing year-over-year, not just because of their new models but for existing models, while sales of competitors like Echo and Civic go down, or like Protege increase but at a much lower rate, the only conclusion to be drawn is that Hyundai is increasing its entry-level market share at the expense of the other makes, which are competing against Hyundai in the same market for the same buyers. If you would care to disagree with this assertion with some facts and analysis, please do.
Newcar31: Yes, you bought your Protege ES at a big discount. And I bought my Elantra for a big discount, and in some areas you can get one for under $10k. So the ES is still thousands more than the Elantra. It's all relative. That's why the comparos deal with sticker price. Also, the Elantra GLS in the comparo was loaded too, even with the rear spoiler that added nothing to the car's performance or utility but wound up costing it one place in the standings. If you want to challenge the validity of the comparo, maybe you should take it up with the editors of Edmunds.com.
I know there is no way to check the used car sales for each make, but isn't there data on the used car market in general?
Also, we are in an economic downturn right now. Perhaps some of the people who would have bought a Honda or a Toyota are waiting until things get better.
There could be a host of reasons why the various makes have the sales they do.
I actually meant to throw that out as a possible topic of discussion and not as a statement of my feelings on the subject.
Personally, it is not that I like the price as much as the size. I just like small cars.
Then I sat in and drove the Elantra GT and I personally felt it was no contest. Only the Golf had the seating comfort, content, and the ride to compare, but the Golf cost a lot more and VW had its share of reliability issues. I talked to some tow truck drivers and they gave me a unanimous thumbs down on VWs. Not sure what axe, if any, they have to grind, but their opinion was important to me. The Civics and Corollas were just too cramped for me in the front, the Corolla in the back, and neither had particularly good driver comfort in my opinion.
I suspect that many others like me are being won over by content for the price and are willing to gamble on reliability backed by the warranty as well as on historical resale, which has been non-existent. Then too, the lower end cars are more affordable, bad economy or not.
I chose the GT because I do a lot of long distance driving and wanted the extra weight. For car #2, I want top fuel economy and will most likely look to Echo or a TDI. As it is, the GT is delivering around 34 on the highway, which isn't too shabby for its power and weight.
Did you buy your car because you like "econoboxes?"
Sorry if this is ground already covered, but there are over 550 posts and I don't feel like reading through all of them.
Especially since it feels like I wrote a lot of them. ; )
I'd never owned either brand before and I'll admit to being pleasantly surprised by Hyundai. If brand image doesn't mean anything to you then Hyundai offers a very attractive package
As someone pointed out, they took one car with few options and called it reasonable and they took a loaded car and called it expensive.
This is like the safety claims they made against the Echo. They said you would end up looking like spam if you got hit by an SUV. They made a big deal in a later article about they were basically motivated by being concerned about people's safety.
If that is the case, they should warn people the dangers of being in a small car in every review they do of a small car. They don't.
In fact, if you click on the compare button when you are looking at the Echo, information on three other small cars appear.
I checked the current reviews for these other models and in only one of the three is a warning about the car's size and weight relative to SUVs present.
I like Edmunds, but just for the message boards.
In answer to the earlier post about the other cars that I looked at. I looked at the Pro-5, the Golf, the Focus with an eye toward the ZX5, and the Civic, Corolla, and Echo. My thoughts:
Pro-5: Great small package, but I felt that the mpgs were too low for all the driving I was doing. I followed the threads on the Pro board and was concerned that too many people were getting in the low to mid 20s. Also thought the low profile tires would wear faster and cost more to replace. I also couldn't get really comfortable in the driver's seat and disliked the low height and stubbiness of the center arm rest.
Golf---I looked at the TDI. I might have bought one, but if I was going to, I wanted all of the goodies and the ones I saw did not yet have the side curtain air bags. Also concerned about the reliability and cost of maintenance of the diesel. Otherwise, I thought that the Golf was the best small package out there. The seats are great and even the passenger side has full height adjustment and tilt.
Focus---A very functional design and lots of interior room. I disliked the dash layout, and found the seat to be too short. I also thought the telescoping wheel didn't have enough travel. My real negative was the engine and drive train. I just didn't like the power or the shift points with the 2.0 Zetec. Last, I don't like the rear deck light treatment and the squashed rear window. Ford also charges a fortune for traction control.
Civic---Loved the EPA ratings and the reputation and reliability. Did not like the driver's seat, the front leg room, and the adjustment knobs on the EX that would skin your knuckles with the door closed. Didn't appreciate the cheap and useless driver arm rest and ridiculously inadequate center console storage.
Corolla---Too cramped in the rear and not too comfortable for me in the driver's seat. Nice center console. Great mileage, great engine, timing chain. Wouldn't buy with the 03 redesign promising to be worth the wait.
Echo----Still a contender for my second car.
Really wanted a center arm rest. Tilt wheel has little travel...low to lower. No tach and no temp gauge a real minus to me. No ABS and side air bag availability another minus. Terrific mpgs and great heritage for reliability. Interior quite spartan but very functional. This car should be a squared off hatchback. The trunk opening is way too shallow to put anything large inside. A hatch would really solve that.
Elantra GT---Loved all the content and the ability to get traction control, roof, and ABS for under $1200, let alone get traction control on a 4 cylinder. Cargo space a plus as is the extra legroom as the car is a few inches longer than its competitors. Like the bumper rub strips to protect against paint scuffs as well. All the amenities plus the warranty plus the price plus the decent mpgs for a large engine won me over. Engine and tranny not as refined as the Japanese cars. No regrets to date.
Hope this helps.
As to what other cars we were considering when I bought the Elantra GT, the short list is below. We wanted four doors, auto tranny, A/C, and some power goodies.
Protege ES/Protege5 - Pro5 wasn't available yet at any local dealer and the ES just didn't have the same "feel" as the Elantra (and no hatchback). If we could have found a Pro5 for around $17K, we may have bought it. Best looking of the bunch. Protege LX 2.0 still high on my list as a second car. We were almost a Mazda Family.
Honda Civic LX - Capable car but dull. Slightly noiser than I remembered. Sedan is [non-permissible content removed]-ugly when viewed from the rear (Elantra GT ain't no prize in that view, either) and more than a little overpriced for the standard content (options were costly). Dealers were also kind of arrogant. We thought the interior was too plain. Liked the mileage.
Toyota Corolla - Overpriced, cramped and cheap-feeling, but had a smooth, quiet ride. Toyota should be ashamed of itself to charge nearly $18,000 for the LE (with desirable options). What gall! Almost caused me to boycott Toyota products. I'm 5'9" and I could not fit my size 10 feet behind the front seatbacks. For shame. Did I mention it was overpriced?
VW Beetle/Golf/Jetta - Beetle too small. All cars a little overpriced, but we could have dealt with that due to the standard feature content. If these cars had bigger rear seats and had better reliability reps we may have bought one. They are all classy cars with a premium feel.
Hyundai Sonata - (wife's first choice until she drove the GT) very roomy, decent features but a tad too wide for our 1926 carriage house garage.
Honorable mention: Ford Focus (ugly, recalls); Toyota Echo (too spartan but still under consideration for commuter car, marriage issues - wife hated it, I loved it); Mistubishi Lancer (not available in June).
After test driving and research, we felt the Elantra GT offered the most for the money. We also got one very early, before less reputable dealers started marking up the price. We have 5200 miles on the clock and zero troubles. So far, Hyundai has made us happy.
I considered, read about, looked at, and/or test drove a number of small cars. I also looked at a few other cars outside this category.
Here is the list.
Chevrolet Cavalier, Chevrolet Prizm, Daewoo Lanos, Daewoo Nubira, Dodge Neon, Ford Focus, Honda Civic, Hyundai Accent, Hyundai Elantra, Kia Sephia, Mazda Protege, Mitsubishi Mirage, Nissan Sentra, Pontiac Sunfire, Saturn SC, Suzuki Esteem, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Echo, and Volkswagen New Beetle.
Outside the category, I looked at the Suzuki Sidekick, Honda CR-V, and the Toyota RAV-4. The most disparate vehicle I looked at was the BMW 3-Series. I could have done a lease, but my frugal nature made it clear I would not be happy.
The Echo on the other hand has left me very happy.
I have owned the Echo for almost nine months and my roommate likes the Echo so much now that she is thinking about getting one for herself. She presently owns a 1995 Mitsubishi Galant.
We are presently trying to locate a Rent-A-Toyota dealer where we can rent an automatic. My Echo is a stick so driving it would not give her a true feel of what "her" car would be like.
I wanted a small car that could carry four adults in comfort and five adults if I needed to.
And actually I had been in the market for a new car for a number of years, but something held me back.
Glad that something did hold me back or else I might not be driving an Echo today.
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Sephia, we hardly knew ye! We sure couldn't pronounce ye correctly, which is one of the reasons you have left this world for the Great Commute in the Sky. According to Mr. B. M. Ahn, President and CEO of Kia Motors America:
"We weren't able to do any substantial market research concerning the vehicle name when we launched," said Ahn. "So we went with Sephia but always knew that at some point it would change, especially because it was so often mispronounced."
So for those of you who never learned to pronounce "Sephia" correctly and therefore contributed to the demise of this fine example of automotive engineering, here it is, one last time:
SEE-PEE-HIGH'-AH
Or is it
SEP-HEE'-AY
or maybe it's... oh, never mind.
For full press release on the 2002 Spectra sedan:
http://www.kia.com/090501.shtml
Note that the '02 Spectra sedan will not be based on the Elantra chassis and engine as had been rumored, but instead on the Spectra hatchback platform.
I'm going to eat my Burger King hamburger now.
When our 1987 Mustang retires to the great Ford graveyard in the sky I will seriously consider the Echo as a second commuter car. My previous car was a Geo Metro (best damn car I ever owned)and I think a modestly equipped Echo would serve the same purposes very well.
BTW, Burger King fries are NOT better than McDonald's fries.
Perhaps now is the time to get the second car BEFORE the Mustang goes. That way you are not forced to make a decision.
FYI, if you want an Echo with ABS and side airbags, you can get it, but you will have to order it. That may take anywhere from two to four months.
And it's Suh-Fee'-Uh (accent on the Fee). Kind of rolls off the tounge, doesn't it:
Kee'-Uh Suh-Fee'-Uh
BTW, I didn't get the numbers for Mazda "wrong", as you stated earlier. I accurately reported the figures I found on mazda.com. They just happened to be broken down differently than numbers for, say, Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda, which report sales for the U.S., by vehicle groupings (e.g. car division), and/or by model. I haven't found the Mazda numbers yet for the U.S., by model. Perhaps the poster who reported them earlier can give us the link.
look at Shuma II. This will no doubt by my next car. Note that the Spectra hatchback will remain and the Spectra sedan will be based on the Spectra hatchback frame. 2.0L motor? Probably so! Coolio! I dig the separate door tweeters. White, Red or Ebony Black are my early color favorites. Check it out!!!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'd love to replace our Mustang now, but in truth, we don't really need to. My wife works mostly from home and when she does have to drive it's only a 10-mile trip to the office. We only put about 35 miles a week on the 'Stang. Plus, the 'Stang is a convertible and will be tougher to sell with autumn approaching. I'm content to wait at least a year and see what our needs are next summer.
Major, thanks for all the info on the Echo. Keep the informative posts coming.
Happy Motoring!!
And you are right, technically you did not get Mazda's sales figures incorrect. You just did not give them. As for most (all) of the others, you got them wrong. ; )
As to where I got my figures, check out http://www.autonews.com. They still have the figures up.
CJ, yes you can order options ala carte. I suggest using Carsdirect.com to figure out the MSRP. I like it better than Toyota's website because it seems faster. I like it better than Edmunds because if you try to duplicate an option or need to have one option (or package) to get another, Carsdirect.com gives you a heads up. Edmunds does not.
Speaking of Edmunds MSRP figures, I got into a discussion about the Echo over on AOL's auto boards and the other guy tried telling everyone that the MSRP of a fully loaded Echo was over $19,000 which it is not. He had used Edmunds and it "allowed" him to select a radio four times among other things.
If Edmunds really wants to be the number one resource for help in car buying, they really need to work on that.
Be prepared that you might only get 22% of the MSRP when you trade it in in 2004.
>> Backy, I know it was a joke. Ever think my comment on your post was a joke too? ; ) <<
No, I really didn't see any humor there. I'm just slow, I guess.
>> And you are right, technically you did not get Mazda's sales figures incorrect. You just did not give them. As for most (all) of the others, you got them wrong. ; ) <<
I'll bet the numbers that are the "wrongest" are those showing Echo sales in the U.S. plummeting 14.5% for the first half of 2001, compared to last year. If you don't like my "wrong" numbers, straight off the manufacturers' Web sites, maybe you should write a letter to Toyota, Honda, and Mazda complaining about all the "wrong" numbers they post on their Web sites. Maybe you could even give them the numbers they should post. How about, "Echo sales up 145% for 2001"? Does that sound like the right number to you?
I do appreciate your posting the link to autonews.com. Their figures jive with what I found, except now a few days later they include August data and they don't break them down by vehicle. But they do show:
Hyundai - up 35% year-to-date (up 46.2% for Aug)
Kia - up 39.7% (up 41.5% for Aug)
American Honda - up 2.6% (down 0.4% for Aug)
Mazda - up 9.3% (down 1.3% for Aug)
Toyota - up 6.4% (up 7.9% for Aug)
What I don't like about these "correct" numbers (I assume they are correct because you provided the link to them) is that they include all the cars sold in the U.S., not just the entry-level models. So they include Civics but also Acuras, and Echos and Corollas but also Lexii. Hard to tell how the entry-level models are doing head-to-head. The automakers' sites provide these details--usually.
One thing that does come clear from these correct numbers is that Hyundai and Kia are grabbing tons of market share from everyone else. The only other automaker doing anywhere near as well as Hyundai and Kia is BMW, and of course it does not compete in the entry-level segment. There's an interesting article on autonews.com talking about why Hyundai and Kia are doing so well. The direct link is:
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0903/koreans903.htm
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I find your complaint about the numbers bizarre. The numbers you are quoting for Kia and Hyundai contain figures for vehicles besides entry level, low end cars, don't they? Why should the figures I am pointing out be any different?
Also, I did point out in a previous post that my figures came from Autonews. Dumb me. I guess I thought people might take the initiative and type the url in themselves.
I think that explains what I saw, on the road and on the Korean Global site--that's the link you provided, right? The Sephia II picture matches the car I saw on the road, except the grill (minor detail, could be changed for the U.S. like Hyundai did with the Elantra GLS). If I were you, I'd take what a single dealer says about a new car with a grain of salt. For instance, there was mass confusion amongst Hyundai dealers before the debut of the Elantra GT. Many didn't know anything about it, right up to the time it was sitting at the docks in San Diego. But I know what I saw on the road the other day, and it looked like a Sephia II, not the Shuma II. Also, check out the press release on www.kia.com re the 2002 Spectra sedan--they note it will have the same engine and chassis as the Spectra hatchback--that's a 1.8L, not 2.0, right?