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I am only interested in a Sedan or Wagon, so SUV’s and Trucks are out of the picture. As far as another minvan, I have a 2011 Toyota sienna. I don’t need another minivan. I just want a car that I can throw all 3 kids into in a pinch (you never know when your car will break down).
I mentioned the Camry because I know for a fact that the new one will work as I rented one and two cars seats and a booster fit. It was snug, but it worked. I have considered the Cadillac, and I really like the BMW wagons, but they take premium gas and that is just a deal breaker.
So truly, Thank You to all of you for sharing your opinions with me. It is helping me make an informed decision and that is why I posted my question here in the first place.
I don't see why the Optima wouldn't be worth a test drive. No 911, but one of the better and roomier mid-sized cars.
1 - As I mentioned, a Pontiac G8. You could also go for an Impala, which isn't as good, but it is pretty decent nonetheless. In 2013, GM is bringing back the G8/Holden platform in case you feel like waiting.
2 - Any of the Big GM cars. (Buick LaCrosse/Lucerne). I could consistently get 25-27mpg highway in one. GM makes the most fuel-efficient V6 engines and the best automatic transmissions, so while the rest of the car is rather meh, the thing will drive forever.
3 - The Ford Taurus or Flex might also work.
The problem is that 30mpg and large is impossible since they started a HP race a decade or so ago. For instance, a 2004 Pontiac GTO got 30mpg highway. Just that one year. Then they changed it completely in 2005 and mpg dropped to 22.
Can someone confirm that all 2008 Malibu LTZ and all 2008/9 Accord EX-L's have leather seats, and that none of the others have leather seats?
Thanks!
Regarding the Accord, EX-L (L for leather) obviously but there are times they produce an SE model that also has leather. I'm not sure if they produced that model during '08/'09 or not.
Also, the GM W platform cars might work as well.
* 2004–2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
* 2005–2009 Buick LaCrosse
* 2006–2013 Chevrolet Impala
* 2006–2007 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
These also tended to come with leather and more options standard.
2011-2012 CPO Nissan Altima 3.5 SR
2013 KIA Sorento EX FWD (prefer 2.4L)
2013 KIA Optima EX
2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport
2013 Hyundai Sonata Limited 2.4
My mom is an interesting character (to say the least) and that definitely extends to her vehicle preference. Vehicle styling/appearance is at the top of her list, with reliability and pricing/value being a close second. For the first time, fuel economy is also a somewhat important factor.
She is 58, rarely carries passengers other than my step-dad and/or an occasional grandkid (ages 2 and 6), so a 5-passenger car/SUV is fine. She drives a school bus and her route starts and ends at her driveway, so she never uses a personal vehicle to commute. Her list of 'required' features include heated, leather seats, a decent audio system, power sunroof and that's about it.
This will be a vehicle that she keeps for 8-10 years and averages 10-12k miles per year. She currently has a 2007 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer (4.0L, RWD) that has has been nothing but trouble!!! She purchased it from my best friend when it was 16 months old with 70k miles on it (it was his company car). It now has 135k miles on it; in the last 65k miles and 4.5yrs, we've spent almost $5,500 in repairs!!! That does NOT include any regular maintenance or tires/brakes. The transmission has also started having intermittent issues and one side of the power-folding 3rd row seat is stuck in the down position and would cost $580 to repair! Pretty pathetic for a vehicle with a $36k sticker price less than six years ago.
Needless to say, we want a reliable/durable vehicle with 100k miles of Powertrain coverage to back it up! The only 'rules' my step-dad has given me is NOTHING from GM/Ford/Chrysler and try to keep it under $30k.
The 4-cylinder versions of the KIA and Hyundai vehicles are more than sufficient for her needs and driving style. The reason for considering the Nissan Altima 3.5 SR (which has a 3.5L V6, 270hp and only gets 27mpg highway) has nothing to do with performance....it's all about looks! The 3.5 SR has the beefy 17" alloy wheels and low-profile tires, rear spoiler and several other sporty exterior tweaks that really make it a great looking car. I prefer the looks of the 2012 model over the new 2013 Altima, plus a 2011-2012 CPO will have the standard 100k Powertrain coverage.
Which of the five vehicles listed above would be the best fit based on the information I've given? If you had to choose one of the five to purchase for yourself, which one would it be and why?
I look forward to your responses!
The problems Ford has had with reliability have been with its complicated MyFord system and the transmission on the new Focus.
I've read two different reviews on the Fusion that complained about the relatively tight back seat compared to its competitors. I believe they were C/D and Motor Trend.
Since your mom is OK with the Altima, and also is OK with a 4 cylinder (cf. Optima EX, and Sorento and Santa fe with 2.4L), why not the new 2013 Altima 2.5? Doesn't she like how it looks? It's power is up from 2013 (2.5L) and it has exceptional fuel economy--better than the Optima EX. You said YOU don't like the looks of the 2013 Altima... but how about your mom?
If I were her I'd drive ALL the latest mid-sized 4-cylinder cars including the Altima, Accord, Passat, Fusion, Optima, and Sonata before plopping down nearly $30k. (Personally I'd skip the Malibu, but go ahead and drive that too if she wants, it's pretty good looking.) It's fun driving the cars, and then she'll know which one she likes to DRIVE the best. Also she'll know what they look like up close and inside. But cars aren't just for looking at and pumping gas into.
P.S. If I had to choose one on the list I'd take the Optima EX, I think it fits your mom's criteria the best of those 5 vehicles.
BUT my step-dad has currently has a 2006 Accord SE 4-door. He is planning to trade it in on a 2013 Accord in a few months when dealers become more willing to discount them. So that’s dad’s car.
I personally love the new Ford Fusion, but after the experience they’ve had with her current 2007 Explorer, my step-dad will never allow a Ford vehicle in their garage again! Their experience with all three of the local Ford dealers in buying and servicing her previous 2004 Explorer and her current nightmare-from-hell 2007 Explorer further sour the idea of buying another Ford, no matter how good it actually may be! The warranty coverage isn’t
The 2012 Altima 3.5SR has a sport look and aggressive stance that the 2013 models lack, especially the 2.5SL (and other 2.5 versions). I showed mom the photos just to put the possibility on the table and she shot down the 2013 instantly.
The 2013 Fusion and Altima have a 3yr/36k Basic Warranty and 6yr/60k Powertrain Coverage. The CPO Nissan and new KIA/Hyundai models all have 100k of Powertrain Coverage. I have located four 2012 CPO 3.5SR models so far and all are less than 10-months in service and under 15k miles. So they have over six years and 85k miles of coverage provided by the 7yr/100k warranty form original in-service date.
A new development today is that the budget has been reduced a bit! My step-dad was/is somehow convinced that mom’s 2007 Explorer is worth $11-12k trade-in and someone will pay that for it! So the $30k budget is actually $18k cash plus whatever the hell we can for the Explorer!? Even though it is in Very Good to Excellent physical condition inside and out, the high mileage and history as a corporate fleet vehicle (even if it was my best friend’s company car) in conjunction with it being 2WD/V6 = $8k trade-in is the best I’m expecting. Which translates to a budget of around $26k, not $30k.
I’m sure we could sell the Explorer privately for at least $12k, but knowing that the transmission is acting wonky sometimes and a few other minor issues, I can’t sell it to an individual .at least not without telling them all the details about what has gone wrong, is going wrong and will almost certainly go wrong again and that tends to scare off buyers off and/or kill the selling price! I’d much rather it go to the big Carmax auction far away and hope that it doesn’t end up being sold to some poor soul before it all the problems are repaired .
If I was choosing a car for myself from the list, it would be the 2012 Altima 3.5SR- hands down!
But I spent some time test driving the Sonata and Santa Fe yesterday and the Optima EX today. Even though I've read all the reviews and raves about the Optima, I still wasn't prepared to be as impressed as I was by the Optima EX! It also amazed me just how differently two cars built on the same platform and sharing the same powertrain can feel. The Sonata Limited is undeniably a very good car with interior materials and design that could pass for an entry-level luxury car. But the Optima feels more like a German car- taught, firm ride without being harsh, quick reflexes, and a more no-nonsense exterior design.
If I had to choose one least favorite thing about the Sonata, it would be the design and layout of the dashboard! Conversely, the dashboard design is one of my favorite things about the Optima. It is simpler looking with buttons and controls spaced out a bit more and in more logical arrangement. I also love the way that the center stack is canted toward the driver!
If you're wondering why I am test driving these cars on my own first, I'm actually test driving the dealership and sales team. They will probably never know it, but it's more for their benefit than anything!
Back in December 1994, mom and I were shopping for a new Jeep Grand Cherokee. She knew that was what she wanted, the colors, option packages, and everything else. It was just a matter of actually finding ones that met her specs then trying to get the best deal at a time when they sold Grand Cherokees as fast as they could build them!
We found one at a dealership almost 100 miles away that was exactly what she wanted. They quoted a price on the phone that was good enough to make the drive over there worthwhile, so we went. The moment we walked in the showroom, I had a bad feeling about the place. The salesman who gave the phone quote was off, so we ended up with a sleazy, slicked-back-hair, condescending [non-permissible content removed] instead! He immediately asked why mom had came to buy a car without her husband (he had already checked the wedding ring, I suppose). Her response, verbatim, “Because I’m the one buying the car, not him!”
We went for a test drive and he insisted that I sit in the back seat so he could demonstrate all the controls and features up front for her. A few minutes into the test drive, mom gunned it when a traffic light turned green to see how much kick it had off the line. Dude actually scolded her for doing it and said the engine wasn’t broken in and blah, blah .so she floored it and didn’t let off for a good 30 seconds- doing 80mph or so in a 45 zone to show him who was boss in that car!
Then he actually said “You need to calm down!” to her and patted her knee with his left hand!!! She locked it down in the middle for four lanes of traffic and went carnival-freak crazy on him screaming for him to get out! Doing what any protective son would do in the situation (and being 19, hot-heated, and 6’2” 230#), I jumped out, opened the passenger door and pulled him out of the car and threw him onto the ground (or road surface, to be particular). I got back in the car and she took off like a bat out of hell going back to the dealership (leaving him a few miles away). She skidded across the lawn of the dealership and almost created a drive-thru right in the front of the showroom! She left the door open, engine running and tore off to find the sales manager and I went to the receptionist desk and called 911!
We didn’t wait for the cops, but I didn’t want them to come after us because they reported us for assaulting the salesman and trying to steal the car or some similar nonsense. We never heard another word about .but I learned that it’s best to pre-screen dealerships and select a suitable salesperson (I usually try to find a female or gay male salesperson if possible before some ‘go-getter’ nabs me instead)!
It would be a far worse fate for a sleazy perv if it they pulled that crap on her today. Now there’s always a loaded firearm in that big ol’ Coach purse she lugs around .
I couldn’t make this [non-permissible content removed] up if I tried!
ummm... with that temper, I'm not sure that's such a good idea. :surprise:
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
i've never bought a car before, but i'm emergently having to because my old 92 camry died on me (it was at 230k+ and strong! for awhile...)
anyone able to share more insight?
If you prize MPG above everything else, then the Prius is the way to go.
If you want more of a traditional driving vehicle, with slightly less fuel efficiency, the Civic will serve you well, and for a very long time.
That said, I've only been in a Prius once. Like you, I found it painfully slow, and not very comfortable.
I'll throw out one more to look at...Hyundai Elantra. Should be priced about the same as Civic, I'd dare to say it's better, and much longer warranty.
Yes, the engine dropped to 4th gear up some of the long grades (approx 4,200 RPM at 70MPH) to keep us moving, but it was very relaxed otherwise, running low RPM quietly. The price was similar to the Civic LX, but it had more equipment and interior space.
In comparison, the Civic I've driven was much noisier, if similar in the power department.
I know you didn't ask about the Elantra, but give it a test drive. It is a substantial feeling car and a good value.
I am needing to replace my commuting vehicle, a 1995 Lexus 300, as it is finally getting to the point where fixing anything wrong on it would be more than the car is worth. I live just off a short rural gravel road, but it is paved highway after about 2 miles - lots of hills that can be a problem in the winter. My Lexus conquered them all like the champ he was. I drive about 50 miles per day round trip to work.
I have literally not even looked at cars for about ten years, so all the new bells and whistles are a bit much to take in. I tend to drive cars a VERY long time, so reliability and low maintenance are important. I take reasonable care of my vehicles in terms of routine maintenance, but need a mechanic for heavy duty repairs (56 year-young lady).
My budget is unfortunately limiting and I realize that. I have between 8-11K to spend on a good used vehicle. My basic needs are:
Must be able to transport 4 people of middle age and above - need 4 doors, with not-too cramped back seat and legroom and not too low to climb out of.
Open to wagons, sedans, crossovers or suvs that are not too high to get into (5'2"). (Don't like running boards)
I like Toyotas and have had a Tercel, a Corolla, a Camry and my Lexus in the last 35 years, but I will consider most any car as they have all improved over the years in terms of reliability.
I prefer leather or leatherette seats over cloth for durability, and I love my sunroof but I would give it up if I had to. I know where I am going at all times, so I don't need navigation, and I have never backed into anything so I don't need cameras. (Although after looking at some of the newer cars where the back windows are rapidly shrinking to the size of portholes, I can see why so many cars have backup cameras!) One cup holder per person is a luxury as far as I am concerned, and there are no children that need to be entertained with DVD's or full scale audio systems.
I should add that aesthetically I hate the look of the newer boxy things like Scions and Souls.
Am I asking the impossible here for the price? All suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Forgot to add - I can drive a manual. Don't particularly want to, as it makes holding a cell phone difficult in city traffic, but it's not a deal breaker.
1. Hyundai Elantra Touring. Finding one between 8-11k may be a bit tricky, but they are out there. If not the ET, then the prior model Elantra GT hatchback would be my next choice.
2. Nissan Versa Hatchback. Much easier to find in this price range.
Both cars offer easy entrance/exit for aging adults, great visibility, and a compliant ride. Plus, if you often carry multiple adults as passengers, both offer room in the back to store/haul their items. If you don't need storage room or the versatility of a hatch/wagon, they I agree with the previous poster that an older Camry or Accord would be my third and fourth option for you.
1: Believe it or not, you can get a 2-3 year old *non-rental* Grand Marquis for about your price range. It's big, extremely overbuilt, and parts are extremely inexpensive. Toyota breaks less often but the parts are getting hideously expensive as of late. It's big, comfy, and perfect for a 50 mile highway commute. It's as close to your old Lexus as you'll find in that price range, IMO. The fact that you want a solid and comfortable ride over amenities and frills makes you the perfect buyer for one of these, IMO.
And there's tons of glass. You can actually see out the back. And sides. And it's not nearly as hard to park as you'd think, thanks to being rear wheel drive.
2: A Buick Park Avenue. This is the last of GM's overbuilt large cars. It's basically a Cadillac DTS with a V6 instead of a V8. This means decent MPG on the highway but the exact same ride and quality - just different body panels for the most part. The downside is that 2005 was the last year. The up-side is an absolute mint condition one can be had for about $7K. Not bad for almost a decade newer than your Lexus.
Also, FYI, GM builds the best automatics on the planet, with Ford 2nd.
3: A Honda Accord with manual. Why I mention this be because the 4 cylinder with manual is exactly as fast as the 6 with automatic in actual driving. But it's literally video game simple to shift gears in. The clutch must have all of 10 lbs of spring on it and it appears to just be controlling a set of servos instead of a direct linkage. So simple anyone can learn to drive it. It's also amazingly reliable.
4: Going even smaller, a Toyota Rav4 is great. Especially the first generation one with manual. It's quick, has 4WD (plus an actual diff lock) and is extremely fun to drive. The 2nd generation model is also quite nice.
If you want to still maintain some cargo capacity, the Mazda3 is available as a hatchback. The Dart's got a lot more gadgets though.
If I had to choose between these 3 I'd go with the Mazda3. Great handling, buttoned-down ride, excellent fuel economy, reliable. Who knows how reliable the Dart will be? The Elantra is good looking and roomy, and pretty economical, but not the crisp handling of the Mazda3.
Also at least in my area it's possible to get a 2012 Mazda3 Touring sedan for about $16,500. Great deal on that car. I'd go for the hatch myself though.
See, by the time you option out the Dart, you're pushing $18-19K, and it's not really much different than a basic V6 mustang in terms of features. Also, in terms of reliability, I'd put my money on Ford over Dodge.
But overlooking such factors is what our man Plekto is famous for, right?
The Base model is a total stripper that even rental companies won't want to buy as it is below their minimum equipment requirements. I mean, who actually makes you pay for air conditioning and floor mats these days? What is this, 1990?
So you have to start with at least the SXT for $18K. Plus another $1100 for an automatic if you want that. And to add insult to it all, it's not the 40mpg highway turbo model. It gets 24/34 with the automatic, or a whopping 5mpg better than, well, a typical V6 sedan.
$19,540 was the price I got locally via truecar including destination charge. For a Dart with just A/C and automatic. Zero other options. Add in decent paint or better sound or anything else and you just hit $20K.
If he wants high MPG, it's $20K plus automatic, or $21K. The idea of a $16K car to run around in was left in the dust a long long time ago.
Remember, that a base model Prius, which has all of this standard as well is $23K. And it actually DOES get 40mpg. The second you hit 20K, you're faced with alternatives that crush the econoboxes flat. 20K for a Dart vs 23K for a Prius? He will save $500 a year in fuel with the Prius, guaranteed. And have a lot less depreciation than in a Dodge.
I keep bringing the Mustang up because it's a good vehicle and a stunning deal for the money. 300HP and 30mpg highway? That's got to be worth something in the calculation as well. Whenever I see econoboxes creeping towards 20K, I recommend it as it comes with all that stuff standard, is better built, and that 300HP engine is (IMO at least) well worth the extra thousand dollars.
When I recommend cars, I ignore the number of doors first, since it's really an aesthetics thing and very low on most people's list of must-haves, generally. 2 vs 3 vs 4 vs 5 doors is usually a "whatever" if push comes to shove. A lot of people can manage to live with a 2 door car if it's just hauling around the occasional friend or maybe fitting a child seat back there.
I also largely ignore MPG if the poster is asking for the impossible. 40mpg means a TDI engine or a hybrid. Anything else in real-world driving won't get better than about 30mpg combined. LOT of cars get 25 combined or so, though. Like a bog standard 4 cylinder Camry. Or 3/4 of everything GM makes aside from its trucks. Anything that does get 40mpg highway, though, is well over 20K. Every last one of them charges you a small fortune for that MPG gain, be it a hybrid or a super economy engine.
Unless he drives 50K a year, 5mpg isn't worth having to settle for a tin can on wheels. Which is kind of what the Dart is unfortunately turning out to be. It's nice, but it's just not worth $19K.
*****
Now, if he wants a simple thing to get around in and needs 4 doors, for 16K or less, he might consider a Jeep Patriot. It's really a small wagon that's been lifted 3 inches. I consider it a wagon and not a SUV in any case. Jeep does as well, considering that it has a "brother" version which is the Compass. Unibody construction as well. Not a truck by any stretch of the imagination.
That said, it does drive well. It's dirt cheap. It hauls a lot. 23/30 isn't so bad, either. So why consider one?
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/jeep/patriot-pricing/2012/
$14K.
It's the price of a Yaris for the base model. Add in a few options, air conditioning, and you're still just under $16K. And that's the OP's real price goal. The only real down-side is that you must get the manual. It's a good manual as well - easy to drive. But it will save you a fortune later on as the CVT is a hateful thing that's expensive to fix - just avoid it and get the manual. It's the least expensive new vehicle that I know of that's worth considering.
Then again, why am I bothering? you've made it perfectly obvious you don't listen to people.
Mustang is no doubt a nice car for the money. But you're likely going to take a 10mpg hit over an economy car and even for someone driving 15k a year, that can add up. $50/month in fuel is a lot if someone really doesn't need something like that. I'm dropping an extra $200/month on fuel driving my Pathfinder vs a car...but I don't like cars!
The Chevy Cruse Eco is $22K
The Prius is $23K.
The Mazda 3 i sport which does get 40mpg (all other models are not even close to 40mpg) is $19,600. If you can find one with no other options, that is. I guess $19,600 *is* technically under $20K...
A VW TDI is close to 25K. Ouch.
40mpg and under $20K is almost* impossible. So I generally ignore it and look at other factors. 30 or even 35mpg highway, though, is quite easy to do on the other hand.
* There is one and only one option legitimately under 20K. And that's the Honda Insight. It's $19,200 including delivery charge. It comes with everything standard. I don't mention it most of the time, though, as it is frankly a rather nasty car to actually drive. No power, paper thin interior that's just to look at, and hopelessly budget everywhere you look at it. Add in a nasty CVT that's brain-dead, and the angst is complete.
For the price, considering it's a Honda and a hybrid, it's a great deal. But it's also such a let-down as well in so many ways. They tried to get good MPG out of it and they did. But they also sucked all of the goodies and soul out of it as well in order to get every save ounce of weight. To me, it feels like a 4 door wagon version of a Smart Car. It's lovely to look at but it actually makes me want a Prius more. And that kind of kills my soul a bit, just thinking about how a car actually is so austere and eco-maniac that it makes me think about a Prius.
Who knows? The OP might fall in love with the Insight. Me? Life's too short to drive a hybrid.
I usually try to compress multiple responses, but I thought a little math would be informative. Not anything personal, mind, you, but because there are so many lurkers who are obsessed with MPG.
15K miles times 3.50 a gallon (national average is a bit lower, but this makes the math easier).
32 mpg combined car (40mpg highway Dart) is 469 gallons.
25 mpg combined car (30mpg highway) is 600 gallons. That's about $450 a year in extra fuel, or about $38 a month.
Q: is it worth $38 a month to drive a car with no power, no features, and that costs a 2-3K premium over a standard car (say a Honda Fit for $17K)? I personally don't think it's (normally) good economics to chase MPG at the expense of everything else. Because a Honda Fit (as an example) is about 3K less than the 40MPG cars.
With a combined 29mpg, that Fit vs a Dart or Mazda 3 can end up being ten years to make up the difference. (note - it's a never break even scenario with VW and some hybrids)
Note - a Honda Fit is also a nice choice for him. The low weight actually makes it fun to toss around. I forgot about it for some strange reason.
But based on what you said here I think you'll find the Mazda3 much more to your liking. It also gets very good fuel economy. But you'll actually have fun driving it.
Nice that it gets 40 MPG highway in real life too.
Good thing rear leg room isn't important to you as that is not a bright spot for the Mazda3.
Anyways, check this out:
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/chevrolet/cruze-pricing/2012/
Leftover models are on some sort of massive discount right now.
It's about $16K and is a far superior car to the others that we've been recommending. I just ignored it as they typically run around 20-22K. It's very solid and has enough power to get around acceptably well.