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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI
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Anyway, back on the subject. I've read that story time and time again so I know what you're saying. With being fun to drive being the main 2 priorities, a go-kart, Jeep, or motorcycle could have won this test if only it hadn't been limited to hatchbacks. I really wish i had a scan of the whole article because the magazine shows a lot more data than the story online. They have the lap times for each car with a break-down of what the speeds and times were at various points. Plus, they have a break down of the point and how they were scored. It gives a lot more in-depth look into each vehicle and why it scored what it did. I haven't read the actual issue in a few months and I forgot to find it last night, but I'll see what I can do.
I just find it strange that you feel that the way they described the handling of the Civic is better than that of the GTI. Last I checked, a car that understeers and "eats it's outside tires for lunch" wasn't the best handler. Like it was said in the story, the Si is tuned for "safe stability" not track handling. Plus, don't you think that that little annoying problem of eating outside tires might have something to do with the Si having tires that are not up to the task? That being said, I'd say the Si and GTI are on an equal handling level. One has tires that are not made to handle the handling ability of the chassis and the other has more body roll than it needs. If it weren't for the shifter, the VW likely would have beaten out the Si, though it still would likely have been beaten by the Focus anyway.
Now, onto the next section, the performance part. You're fooling your self if you believe that the Si and GTI are closer in acceleration than was stated in the story. They even said themselves the the Si is 156 lbs. heavier than the old version and it has the same horsepower and a little more torque, so you can't expect the times to change that much and they didn't. The 0-60 times of a '99-00 Civic Si are listed as 7.9 sec on www.car-stats.com So, it's easy to assume that the new Si, being 156 lbs. heavier and only a slight gain in torque would post similar numbers.
As far as the GTI, there have been numerous tests of the GTI in all it's forms and they are all quite similar as well. The 150 HP version was tested at 7.3 sec. 0-60. The VR6 version with 174 HP and a little more weight ranges from 6.9 to 7.7. Now look at the New Beetle Turbo S which has essentially the same powertrain as the GTI except for the 6-speed tranny. The 0-60 times for that are 6.7 sec. So, again, like the Si, it's very easy to assume the actual times for both of the cars to be within a few tenths of a second of what the testers in C&D came up with. Plus, if we add in the Focus SVT, it has 170 HP, right in the middle of the Si and GTI and it's 0-60 time of 7.8 sec. is also between the Si and GTI. The reason the SVT's time is a lot closer to the Si is due to the fact that the GTI wins the torque battle quite handidly against both cars and torque is what creates acceleration.
Now for price. The C&D test assumed that the Si would be sold at MSRP, not a massivly discounted price, so they did the test giving each car an equal grounding. You, on the other hand, are giving the Si a handicap. Many others agree that at an equal price, the GTI wins out. It just seems tha buyers are not buying that the Si is worth the same as a GTI, and for good reason. What does the Si have that the GTI doesn't? By my count, only the Recaro seats. You can get Recaros for a GTI, but you have to get the 337 Edition which also includes larger brakes, a 6-speed trans, and upgraded handling. The GTI, on the other hand has heated seats, automatic up & down windows, lower-profile wheels and tires than the Si, better brakes than the Si, traction control, a 200 watt stereo w/ 8 speakers while the Si has 120 watts and 6 speakers, standard side airbags, which are an option on the Si and side-curtain airbags which aren't even offered on the Si. This is why the GTI is more expensive than the Si. It comes down to more than just handling or straight-line speed. Buyers of GTI's get a lot more for the money which is why they are willing to pay more for the GTI than the Si. Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but the case has been made and it's easy to see why buyers would choose a GTI, but it's also easy to see why buyer would choose an Si, especially with the price difference.
Now, come back to this discussion.. how many of you are still laughing from the rush you got from the GTI? How many of you are feverishly scratching your head trying to figure out how the heck you're going to afford the price difference? Oh.. but you will.. Why? Because now.. there is no comparison and you can't wait to have that rush every day.. The GTI is Gran Turismo!
I think we got our lines crossed somewhere back there. Because I agreed all along that the Si was not worth MSRP, and if I had to pay MSRP for both cars, I would have bought the GTI. (although I may not have said it in those words)
Also, I do own an Si, and I made quite a few references to my driving experience in my last post. (I even wrote exactly how much I paid and my APR) I wanted a roadster, but wasn't sure I was ready to give up the convenience of 4 seats and a trunk (in the case of the MR-2) I think the GTI is a great car, but I don't think (and this is my opinion) that it's worth $3,500+ more than I paid for my car.
This reminds me of arguments with Miatas. It could almost be described as gutless, yet it's very very pleasurable to drive. It's the best selling sports car of all time.
Cars are not composed of numbers and features, they are complete packages. That's very important to remember. The Si can give up everything you say to the GTI, and still win a comparison, because it's just a fun car.
The reason I argue for the Si, isn't even because I own one. It's because many people act as if the Si is the worst thing that Honda has ever done, and that's without even driving the car. I want to make sure that people give it a fair shake.
I take magazine test comparisons with a grain of salt. Testing a car is one of the most subjective things anyone can do - everyone approaches it from a different persective. I'd never let a test comparison in some biased, hack magazine sway me toward a particular car. I get out there and do my own comparisons with the sales person grabbing the dash and stomping on his imaginary brake pedal for most of the test drive :-)
And my first choice for a car was an MR-2. But it's probably the most impractical car made, and it would probably have run me at least $6-7,000 more than the Si.
I plan to head out to the Honda dealer this afternoon for an SI test drive.
Having said all that I'm still leery of the VWs. The Civic is a good car, and I've had great reliability with all my Hondas. How's VWs recent record? I know their past is not so hot, but things seem to be improved. Appreciate any feedback.
Buy what you like. You can make arguments either way for either vehicle. The SI has a better tranny but the GTI faster. The GTI has better brakes but the SI handles better. For me, at $16,000 the SI was an unbeatable deal especially when taking into account VW's iffy reliability.
Greetings from sunny Miami.
Going to KBB.com and looking at how much used GTIs would be worth, a GLX like you describe is worth $16.8k private party value in "fair" condition. In "good" it would be $18.1k. To get an '01 model year down to $15.5k it took a GLS in "fair" condition. Edmunds Used TMV prices were slightly lower, but still, that price you were offered almost seems like an anomaly. VW resale value is generally regarded very highly.
If resale value was really a concern for anyone, I don't think the '02 Si has good resale in its future. If you have to give it away (well below invoice) to get people to buy a new one...
And on the subject of reliability, while Honda may be the benchmark, besides window regulator issues, VW has been making strides in recent years, as have many other car manufacturers. So, basically, I don't see why it scared you away that much.
Mike
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My 2002 SI may not hold crazy value like the 99-00's but it should hold it just as well as a Prelude, which they had a problem selling too. A nice clean Prelude will still get good money because they are rare just like the 02 SI's are going to be. Honda's problem isn't that the SI is bad I just think they tried to sell too many of them. They shoulda taken a clue from Ford and Mazda when it comes to projected sales. Ford brought 5000 SVT's here and Mazda is bringing 2000 MS3's .. that's a more reasonable number. With the economy kinda in the gutter right now it's hard to justify a $19,500 small hatchback .. now if more people knew you could buy them for around $17,000 it might be different.
VW"s reliability scares me away because I work for a car dealer and see them come in every day with various problems and our buyers will tell you to stay away from VW products. Plus, like I said, the 01 I was looking at had the sorry 2/24 warranty which only gives you 2 years of coverage for the thing that goes wrong on VW's the most .. electricals.
With the '02 Si apparantly not being as desirable as its predecessors though, is there really going to be a strong enough demand for it to keep its resale value up? The Prelude's resale value is impressive, about equal to the GTI's (about $23k-ish MSRP down to $15.5k trade-in for an '01 17k), but I still have my doubts about the '02 Si. Only time will tell, of course.
Mike
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
(BTW, sorry for my earlier mistake...I'm normally thorough but didn't catch that I was comparing an '00 to an '01).
Mike
This report lists VW as the industry leader in True Cost of Ownership. The winner is chosen by using a set of variables that take into account the true cost of ownership such as fuel, repairs, derpiciation and others. These values are averaged and compared to the others in the industry. Well, the VW Passat came out on top in its class and VW as a company won out over all other non-luxury brands. The new generation VW's have very high resale values provided they are treated well. If you abuse a car, don't expect to get your money's worth out of it. GTI's and other lower volumes models like the GLI Jettas and Beetle Turbo S's will also likely have even higher resale values due to the fact that they are special models that are not as mass-produced as the others.
In response to earlier posts on resale value and sales prices. The person who saw the '01 GTI for $15,500 or whatever it was. That is a very cheap price and there was likely something major wrong with the car or it had been totalled and rebuilt. The values you find on KBB.com mean different things. You can't compare the trade-in value of $15,900 to the selling price of $15,300 and say that the springs and such brought the value down. The trade-in value is the value you should expect to get from the dealer if you want to trade-in your car. They will not give you what it is worth or else they wouldn't be able to sell the car for a profit. This is why there is also a section for Private Party values. These values give you what you should be looking for pricewise for a vehicle with the options and mileage specified. This price shows what a dealer or private seller would sell the car for. This is what your vehicle is actually worth, not the trade-in value. The Private Party value is the much more accurate value for a vehicle and it is also what the deprication of the vehicle will be based on.
Mike
The reason VW only sold only 1500 337's was not because of lack of demand. They had only planned on bringing over that many to the US in the first place. It was made as a limited edition model. VW actually raised the number available to about 1750 if I recall due to the hot demand of the vehicle. The comparison to the Si in this sense doesn't compare. It's better to compare the sales of the GTI to the Si since they are the actual competitors. Comparing the 337 to a rarer Si version, like an SiR would be more correct.
I was about to push on the Ford guys to lower their SVT price, hopefully to around 18G, (loaded), but 15990 for the Civic SI? Can't pass that up, and don't want to.
A little silver beauty is heading for my driveway in the next few days.
My feeling is that 15990 isn't the lowest you can get. The dealership was happy to sell the car and really rushed/worked to do it. Me? I am happy with the 16G price point.
How low will they go? My guess is 15K is definitely in the realm.
By the way, I think it was muffin_man who indicated that the SI was going for much lower than invoice, so my MANY MANY THANKS to you! I wasn't willing to pay 17.5+ for the SI, didn't seem like enough car.
devoz
I'm amazed that Honda is willing to take that kind of hit on one. I still haven't test driven one - can't wait to though - $6,000+ less than my GTI, unreal.
One thing I see is also all the 02 SI does not have the side airbags. Strange. For another $200+, it is a cheap option.
Now VW is about to bring a really different and rare Golf over here - the R32, it's been released in Europe and selling like hotcakes over there. The R32 is GTI with a 240 HP 3.2 liter VR6, dual exhaust, 6 speed, ALL WHEEL DRIVE (4Motion), 18" wheels, Bi-Xenon's, deeply bolsterd Konig sport seats, aggressive suspension, huge brakes - total performance in the WRX and Lancer EVO realm. It is also heavy on the luxury, Alacantra (suede) seat inserts, auto climate control, rain sensing wipers, headlight washers, Navigation system, etc. No word on how many of these little monsters VW will import to the U.S. I'd suspect no more than 1,500 due to the fact that they will cost around $30k+. R is to VW what M is to BMW and AMG is to Mercedes - all out European performance. Apparently VW is going to have R versions of many of it's models in the future.
It will be interesting to see if VW can pull off selling out it's allocation of the R32 at over $30k a pop - basically the price of 2 SI's.
VW sold every 02 W8 Passat they brought over here at close to $40k each - again 1,500.
I beg to differ on this point. I was at the VW dealer in Austin, TX(Hewlitt) today and saw a W8 4motion discounted from 37,500 to 34,900.............
VW actually created this model to commererate the 25th anniversary of the GTI in Europe, they brought it here due to the demand of buyers wanting to buy the car here. So, VW originally decided to bring 1500 over in order to satisfy those buyers. the demand was much higher than they expected and the actual number brought over was raised to 1750 due to the demand. It's likely VW could have easily sold many more of the 337 edition GTI's had they cjosen to, but the number sold was kept low so that the model would be a collectors item since it does commererate an important event.
The R32 on the other hand, is not really as different as you may believe. In Europe the Golf is available with the VR6 and a 4-door version. Here it's only available as a 2-door in the GTI. 4-motion is also an available option over there as well on the Golfs, though it's only available here on the Passat. The R32 is pretty much to the Golf what the 337 is to the GTI, not a huge difference, just upgrades where needed. The likelyhood of the R32 making it to our shores is slim, but could happen I suppose. it all depends on whether or not people would be willing to pay about $30K or more for a Golf. I say it's possible since people were willing to pay $22K and more for a 337 edition with no 4-motion and the 1.8T. If the R32 does make it here, it will likely be a very low volume car much like the 337 with output in the area of that of the 337. If you want to read up more on the R32 check out www.vwvortex.com and click on the link to the R32 test drive on the front page. That should give you all the info you need.
How does this all compare to the Si again. Well, as stated in an earlier post, if the Si were limited to only 1500 units they would have sold every one of them at MSRP or maybe more. This may be true, but it's not the case. This is again why the Si and 337 should not be compared. The Si was created to be to Honda what the GTI is to VW, the highest end version of their sport-compact car. Each is made to compete with the other and the number of units called for is usually about the same as well. The Si was originally stated to sell about 12,000-18,000 units, but has fallen below that target and thus Honda was forced to sell the Si's for about $3,000-$4,000 less than MSRP in order to get rid of their inventory. The GTI on the other hand, also likely has about the same sales target per year and must usually sell within that number since VW has not had to lower the price of their GTI's as much if at all in order to seel the projected number of units.
Now, if Honda were to come out with the Civic SiR as they may do in a year or two. They will likely expect to sell far fewer versions, maybe closer to the 1750 that the 337 sold. They may likely sell that number since the SiR is expected to come with the 200HP version of the 2.0L found in the RSX Type-S as well as a 6-speed and a better wheel and tire fitment in addition to other upgrades probably not unlike the 337 GTI. This is where the true comparison lies. It is not correct to compare the Si to the 337 juast because of the sales numbers, you have to look at what the car was originally meant to compete against in the first place.
Why not compare the 337 to the RSX-S if it's not meant to compete with the SI (I will agree there though because the 337 is in the low-to-mid 20's while a SI tops out at $19,700. A RSX-S can be had for somewhere around $22,000. That seems like a more fair comparison anyhow.
I saw a black SI in traffic today and followed it for awhile - I like the rear styling, very European IMO. The fact that the SI is so rarely seen on the roads is a big plus as well and that price just can't be beat - it is a bargain.
Now for the R32 - Here is a news flash from Autoweek, I saw this today:
Volkswagen chairman Bernd Pischetsrieder confirmed to AutoWeek the performance-oriented R32 Golf is indeed coming to the U.S. market. We last reported a decision on whether to sell the car stateside was dependent on whether it could meet U.S. crash standards.
Apparently, the car passed the tests because now Pischetsrieder is saying the R32 will arrive within the next year as a 2004 model.
The R32’s launch date depends upon how quickly the car can be adapted to meet U.S. certification standards, he says.
Expect 5000 to 10,000 R32s priced somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 to be earmarked for the United States, although Pischetsrieder left the door open for more if demand exists. Technical changes from the 237-hp European R32 will be limited only to those required under U.S. standards.
5,000 to 10,000!!! starting at $25k!!! Sign me up!!! Seriously - I dropped my GTI off at my dealer for service today, I'm writing a deposit check for an R32 when I pick it up.
I know VW sells a VR6 4Motion Golf in Europe - I've seen and sat in one. The R32 is VW's answer to the WRX and Lancer EVO VII. Knowing the VW performance tuning scene like I do - I can't wait to see the performance goodies that will be available for the R32. I want a 300 HP all wheel drive hatchback - the R32 appears to be my ticket.
Check this out - The VW R32 German website:
http://www.vw-online.de/golf/popup_r32_flash.htm
The sound of that 3.2 VR6 is awesome - download the movie as well
hamproof - the side airbags are a rare option for whatever reason, and apparently the cars either have them or they don't (ie - not a dealer install). I initially wanted side airbags, but despite being a $250 option, the dealer wouldn't give me one of the Si's w/ airbags for less than $900 more than the $15980 that I paid.
seguy - it's hard to get a good gauge of power on short test drives of (relatively) high reving cars.
I agree with inigoco, Si vs. GTI, and R vs. 337. However, I think the R is definitely the superior car to the 337.
I have taken delivery of my SI, its solid, peppy, refined, basically, I am one happy car owner, just want to jump in the car and drive around!
Only minor issue is that there is "shaking" going on at a couple of different speeds. You can feel it in the wheel, in your feet, and sometimes in your seat ;-).
The dealership thinks this is due to the car sitting on the lot for a while without
being moved, (tires have little flat spots in them). I felt this shaking in another SI I test drove up around 75MPH. Mine shakes slightly at 45 and from 60-70, (I think at least 2 wheels/tires have issues).
The dealership says that they have spent some time trying to figure it out, and have even put the wheels/tires on a really good balancing machine at a different dealership that can even apply load to the wheel/tires (Hunter GSP-9700), but this didn't fix the problem.
I wasn't there to witness any of this, nor do I know if there are any special requirements for the wheels that come with the SI, nor can I pretend to be expert at this topic.
The dealer is now going to replace all four tires with brandy new ones. Hopefully this will fix the problem and I can move on.
Either way the dealership is motivating the repair, e.g. they are doing whatever has to be done to ensure that I am happy, and to be honest, its all a minor annoyance at best.
For a tutorial on wheel/tire balancing!, see
http://www.gadgetonline.com/vibration.htm
anyway, after putting my SL2 at 160Kplus miles to rest, I am enjoying my next 8 year ride very much so far.
devoz
devoz: My tires had a slight vibration when I got my SI and it went away after about 2,000 miles. It sucked but now it's smooth riding at all speeds. Having shuttled alot of cars to and from different locations where I work I've seen that happen to any car that sits for a few weeks or more.
inigoco: Calling the RSX-S wheels uninspiring is a matter of preference. I happen to like them. You may get 18" wheels on the 337 but the car was $25,000+ and since they only sold 1500 and according to people in here they all sold at MSRP. So that means that the 337 is a few grand more than the RSX-S and it has less power out of a turbo engine. Take that $3,000 and get a turbo for the RSX-S and you won't even notice a Jet.. I mean Golf.