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And the price was advertised on Fitzmall.com's website. That is how I found it. It was actually cheaper than some of the LE models, and cheaper still to lease. Darcars also posts their price. Both places offer very good prices (usually at or below invoice). When I took the offer sheet to one local dealer, they didn't believe anyone could sell the van at that price. One guy basically said I was being conned or something. Well, all I can say is that the price I was quoted over email, and what I signed on the paperwork (financed through Toyota) was to the exact penny.
Ody EX (cloth) no extra options is $28,710...TMV $27,470 ( $26,500 Actual)
GC SXT with no extra options is $27,625.....TMV $25,572 ( $22,285 Actual)
I have not actually priced the Sienna LE as every Toyota salesmen has been too obnoxious. In the Denver Region, Toyota has a MANDATORY option pkg 2 @ $1100 for the XLE which makes MSRP $30,890 and TMV $28,536.
YOU got an exceptional deal on your Sienna XLE and I would seriously consider the Sienna XLE for the price you stated if the Toyota salesmen were not so obnoxious.
The Ody EX has the most power, separately controlled temp for driver and front passenger, both power sliding doors but NO overhead computer.
The Sienna LE has NO separately controlled temp for driver and front passenger, 1 power sliding door, but does have a COMPLETE trip computer.
The GC SXT has least power, separately controlled temp for driver and front passenger, both power sliding doors, but lacks the current mpg reading in trip computer.
The Sienna XLE is THE BEST EQUIPPED of the ones mentioned but even at the $26,000 actual price is almost $4,000 MORE than the GC SXT.
I also got a great deal, almost through a loophole. Toyota tacks on this "acquisitioin fee" to take back the vehicle. In Maryland where I got this van, it is $400, in NY it is $1050, which is too much IMO. The great thing is, the MD dealer couldn't charge me the NY fee, and because it is titled in NY state, they waived the MD fee too. A win win!
I think it is important for others to know, when we are comparing prices and all, that certain deals just are not comparable. I've seen others tout the GC prices as the lowest, but they weren't for me. And I've seen some people here mention they have to pay close to MSRP for an Ody, whereas my local dealer was more than willing to deal. Different states and regions and different dealer experiences can make a huge difference. I liked my Dodge dealer a lot, and one of the local Toyota dealers was also pretty good, (one was bad), but the guy from Fitzmall was very nice to deal with, and the dealership overall was very honest.
The only accident I "had" was by default when a "deadman" hit my parked car when I was visiting my wife in hospital 25 years ago for the birth of the first of my three sons. He sufferred a heart attack behind the wheel and was dead when he crashed. Came down to my parked car with the dead man no longer behind the wheel. He was in the hospital emergency.
But you are welcome to hit any parked Ody under similar circumstances!
I financed 0% with Chrysler and still got over $3,500.00 off the listed price back in Dec.on the Dodge SXT.
Would you mind explaining this one more time in plain English :P
Personally, I would really rather not hear any other comments about high-speed driving habits on a minivan forum...the whole thing is pretty absurd. But, that's just my $0.02
Fully loaded on, say Hwy 80 going up Sierra Nevada pass for a lake Tahoe trip?
You wish.
There is a HUGE safety advantage in having a power reserve. And minivans are all about safety.
No minivan is nimble enough to be driven in a slalom on a major highway
Some are nimble enough. Try the Odyssey out.
Same goes for the stopping distances, and roadholding abilities. It may be a difference between flying off the road, and safely maneuvring around an obstacle.
And once again: while on a dry road the difference may seem marginal, once the conditions are not perfect, relative advantage of a van with better dynamic envelope becomes much more pronounced.
that pile of sheetrock in the back is going to be slowing your slalom time down.
Actually extra weight does help.
I test drove the top of the line 05 Ody and found it to be the quietest of all the vans I test drove. I heard the top of the line model Ody has extra sound shielding treatment. Is this true, and are the LX and EX noisier?
These are the numbers from a selection of the vans people would be considering....maybe you can point out where this "reserve" is on the Ody because I just don't see it.
Ody - V6, 3.5L, 24V SOHC, 255 hp @ 5750 rpm, 250 ft-lbs. @ 5000 rpm (Torque)
Sienna - V6, 3.3L, 24V DOHC, 230 hp @ 5600 rpm, 242 ft-lbs. @ 3600 rpm
DGC - V6, 3.8L, 12V OHV, 215 hp @ 5000 rpm, 245 ft-lbs. @ 4000 rpm
Quest - V6, 3.5L, 24V DOHC, 240 hp @ 5800 rpm, 242 ft-lbs. @ 4400 rpm
MPV - V6, 3.0L, 24V DOHC, 200 hp @ 6200 rpm, 200 ft-lbs. @ 3000 rpm
The only van with a bit less of a "reserve" is the MPV but you know what? It weighs in about 300lbs lighter than all the rest (almost 700lbs lighter than the Ody) and it makes it's peak torque at an almost usable number of rpm so it probably would have little trouble maintaining that 80mph. I still say that there is little difference between any of these vans even in the Sierra Nevada or wherever you want to put them (based on engine performance).
"Some are nimble enough. Try the Odyssey out."
Right. My in-laws have a 2005 Ody that I've driven on plenty of occasions. While it does offer a very carlike ride, it must still yield to physics. It is still a 4500lb box, more with people or things loaded in it. And you can fit a lot of people/things in it. Laden or unladen, you cannot safely slalom through traffic in it at high speeds. That's what you would want your Subaru WRX Sti for...not the family hauler.
As for stopping distances and roadholding, I would love to see some stats between the vans I mentioned. I seriously doubt there would be much of a difference. The Ody may even lead the pack but it won't be by much. There is only so much you can make a 4500lb brick do on the road.
"Actually extra weight does help."
Helps to do what? Do you seriously think any of these vans are underweight even unladen? People don't use minivans in autocross if they can help it. They use light and nimble vehicles with good weight distribution and power. Weight is the enemy. And yes, the extra weight WILL be slowing you down.
Yes, reserve power and better handling are good in an emergency situation but when picking a minivan it should not be a huge priority at this point because they are all quite similar. Perhaps the Ody is a bit more nimble because the suspension may be firmer but the MPV is lighter and generates peak torque lower down than any other van I mentioned. Considering the peak torque figures for the rest of the vans are within 8lbs/ft of each other (lowest to highest) I think we can safely conclude that they are irrelevant numbers for choosing one or the other. HP numbers are also basically useless because they come at RPM ranges that your auto tranny will never allow you to use in everyday driving...arguably never AT ALL considering they are all over 5000rpm.
Buy one minivan or the other based on storage, looks, reliability (perceived or otherwise), funcional amenities, safety devices or whatever. But there is very little reason to choose based solely on engine performance.
motortrend review
60-0 braking
DGC 136ft
Ody 123ft
Sienna 134ft
And yah, the 13 ft of stopping distance is making us think a bit about our upcoming purchase....
If you like another van and this is the only thing making you rethink your purchase, it is easy enough to put some larger rotors on your dream minivan to more than level the braking playing field. Or you can switch to larger wheels. Even ditching the all season tires and switching to summer/winter specific compounds will improve handling and enhance your driving experience. But any of these upgrades will easily reap you driveability gains.
It still makes more sense to me to choose a minivan with the individual features that serve what you need. And for most people I think that will mean choosing based on looks, utility, safety, or economics.
No minivan is nimble enough to be driven in a slalom on a major highway
Some are nimble enough. Try the Odyssey out.
" Like the Accord it's based on, the Odyssey gives the feeling that it can be tossed around corners a bit. Taking it up on the offer ruins the illusion, however, mostly because the capsizing feeling that comes with any aggressive turn reminds you of how high you're perched. That, plus too-slow steering, plus the Odyssey's not-so-mini measurements, make mountain runs a nervous affair. It's probably best to be content with the Odyssey's feel in the city, and best to keep it there."
http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/honda/odyssey/reviews/road-test/index.html
Most of the minivans that you listed are between 16 to 17 feet long. So the 13 feet difference in braking is not that much considering that the test most likely had, at the most, two people in them. Most of us carry around our families, which with the added weight, adds to the total stopping distance. And seeing that everybody drives differently, that means they brake differently too. Some coast to a stop, while others wait until the last minute to brake. So either way it goes, the stopping distance is moot in real life driving, but impressive on the test track.
In my case it is the panic stop scenario that was concerning me. Sure the 13 ft is only a 10% reduction in stopping distance, but I know I have suddenly braked only to come with in a few feet of hitting a car... so in those cases 13 feet seems like a significant buffer.
It may only be the difference between not hitting and hitting softly.... but to at least a small degree, it is an extra safety metric to be considered when comparing the T&C to the Ody. And it is one of the few things I can compare out there that has a quantitative measure (vs. seat comfort and "handling").
Since I consider the safety of my family to be more important than whether my seats fold flat or my second row windows roll down... it suddenly stuck out while comparing the vehicles.
All things being equal, I'll take any added safety I can.... even something as small as 13 ft.
You would win that bet masterpaul. According to the ever reliable Consumer Reports...braking distance from 60mph in feet #1) Mazda MPV at 135 #2)Kia Sedona at 143 #3)Dodge Grand Caravan at144 4)Honda Ody at 147 and Toyota Sienna at 152. Oh, did I mention that the MPV was #1 at 135?
I guess it is back to debating fold flat seats again for me....
Do you really want to be driving a Freestar? I doubt it. Or if you want sporty handling and a gutsy engine, then they say grab a Quest.
Picking a minivan is not usually done by performance alone. If it was, each manufacturer would be doing a better job at differentiating themselves from the competition with a larger engine, bigger stickier tires, and a more firm suspension. Instead minivans compromise some engine performance for gas mileage, put all season tires on their cars with normal sized rims, and ditch some handling for ride comfort.
Besides that, even with your own link to the Ody the stopping distance increases to 140ft with the Touring model. Is anyone going to tell me they are going to pick what basically amounts to an options package set because they save a few braking feet? I guess braking performance is something to keep in mind, but I just don't see it as that important given the comparative date. Especially since if you are really concerned then you should be upgrading the brakes and tires once you buy it. All-seasons are pretty crappy and the stock brakes can be put to shame by most good aftermarket products.
Pick a minivan because you are getting a good value for the dollar for what you need, not based on 7ft of extra stopping distance in 3 out of 4 tests.
(I notice how the engine argument is dead now as well. At least that has been laid to rest.)
Buy what you like, you don't need to justify it to anyone.
Odd logic. For a given driver the better stopping van will always stop faster. You can not replace yourself - only pick up a better van.
I can not complain about my wife reflexes, she still can do vaults on uneven bars, and I probably not completely lost it since college days boxing, but that would not help us stop any faster, or to avoid an accident in a poorly perfoming vehicle.
The 10 feet mean nothing if the driver doesn't act fast enough.
10 feet is 10 feet. If you are a slow poke, it is even more important to have some cushion.
Of course nobody should shop just by stopping distance. It is just good to know then when selecting by all other criterias combined (as reflected in overall Consumer Report score) one does not have to compromise on such vital safety parameters as stopping distance, power reserve for avoidance and roadholding).
Only in a panic stop: when you really care.
Then it is the same effort on a pedal, same tires, same surface - same result.
-- I'm the driver in either car. So my reaction time should be the same in any van (well, except the Quest where I am constantly looking over to see the gauges). The stopping distance isn't this big of an issue. Just something I noticed was better on the Ody than the DGC/Sienna.... and well, someone asked for stopping distances, so I posted them.
-- No I'm not justifying my want of an Ody by the stopping distance. Rather the opposite in fact. Financially I have incentives to buy Ford or Chrysler. I just want to make sure I'm not blindly following my wallet if there is a significant advantage to a different minivan. Most reviews label the Ody and Sienna as #1 and #2.... so I'm looking at them.
Things that I am concerned about that I would be happy to hear some feedback on:
1) Quietness in the cabin. I'd like to hear the rear seat passengers easily. Sadly it appears to be a subjective discussion point...
2) Car seat friendliness (we'll have three of them, with tethers) and ease of entry to the back with two of them in the bucket seats. Which is also why Stow N' Go is useless for us for a long time.....
Sorry to start a stopping distance boondoggle... and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to eventually justify an expediture to a spouse. :mad:
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If you want to get into safety comparisons, how about noting the fact that Odyssey popped the drivers side door open on a recent side impact test? That result is probably just a significant or insignificant as the small differences in measured stopping distances.
Clearly we can see where some particiapants in this forum lie in this wide spectrum.
Enjoy the weekend!
No accidents in 35years of driving and no tickets in 15 years using "rabbits" as bait for Smokey.
Nope, you are wrong. At least three tests showed consistently similar results. Also, in any test, several attempts are made. It is easy to determine accuracy. ANd it is not just braking - it is the whole dynamic envelope - from passing power to pull away from that big rig on a steady climb, to stability in avoidance maneuvring etc to panic stops.
This is a statistically significant difference: that may help you not become part of statistics.
On a rock climbing trip to Yosemite the most dangerous part is driving there.
Driving 15000 miles is as dangerous as making 50 skydives.
As a rock climber and a licensed skydiver (both me and my wife) we've learned to never ever under any circumstances to compromise on safety equipment. I keep my distance and drive with the traffic flow and I have no wish to test any of the safety features. But I do not think we are immune to accidents.
Odyssey EX - 4475 lb curb weight (LX 4378, Touring 4634)
Toyota XLE - 4165 lb curb weight (LE - 4170, XLE AWD - 4365)
Difference for the most popular trims - 310 lb. Also - published weight for the base trim in Toyota does not include equipment in optional packages that everybody gets (such as stability control and curtain airbags and heavy things as mechanized doors or moonroof, or smaller ones as integrated sunshades) while on Odyssey everything is included in the published trim weight.
More important - in all tests Odyssey published has slightly better acceleration. (8.6 vs 8.8 in Motor Trend (with a slower Touring model tested, EX is still 0.2s faster), Could you provide a link substantiating your statement?
While it is easy to make incorrect statements on an anonymous internet site - it is equally easy to check them.
As for testing the model Sienna with the 4 wheel discs, that would only be the XLE Limited model from what I see (the highest trim level offered). Perhaps the fact that this ONLY comes on the most expensive model is the reason it is not often tested. Besides that, I imagine the greater weight of the top trim level would help to offset whatever advantages are gained from the rear disc brakes. I don't think this is a conspiracy on the part of those running the comparisons, just a largely irrelevant point.
After reading the posts from the past couple weeks, I must conclude that the Odyssey is clearly WAY safer, WAY more fun to drive, and clearly WAY better than the rest of the minivan competition in this country. This is obvious to anyone who can read that Ody stops 7-15 feet shorter from 60-0mph and accelerates several tenths of a second faster 0-60mph and corners with several hundredths more g force than the competing vans.
Why don't we all just accept this fact and talk about which van is the 2nd-best van in the world. Because we all have the same definition of 'best', it becomes easy to rank the vans in terms of overall best-ness. There's no point in disputing that Ody is king. It is bulletproof. No chinks in that armor.
*sarcasm off*
Nobody is disputing that Odyssey is a great van.
Well actually...I am. :P The Ody is a very good van.To me though it wasn't great. I am speaking of the 2004 model which I had considered purchasing. If it had been a "great van"(in my opinion) I would have bought it. Exterior to much like the interior of the Chrysler vans...bland. Interior was o.k...nothing special.I thought the ride was a bit noisy. Handling and engine performance...fine. But, maybe I should have taken it up Mt. Kilamanjaro(sp) or the Indy Speedway where many of you Ody owners travel. After hearing/reading of all the hype of the Ody, I felt like I did after viewing the recent Star Wars movie...let down.It just did not measure up to all those accolades and awards. 2005 Ody much nicer in exterior styling. The "great" van for me was the Mazda MPV. Pound for pound...the true minivan champion of the world.
The new Honda Ody is a very good van, but far from the best or a great van. All the complaints on these boards prove it's not a great van.
But what makes a perfect minivan to one person, does not make a perfect minivan to another. I doubt very much if many Honda owners bought their van on how fast it would go, how short it stopped, or how much less room is needed to make a U turn. I am sure most looked at their needs, checked out the looks, features, gas mileage and price of the vans and bought them for those reasons.
If a minivan does all the things you bought it for and does it well, for a good price and you have little problems with it, you have a great minivan, no matter what make van you bought. What is important to you in a minivan, might not mean anything to me.
MotorTrend comparison used four wheel disk Sienna.
I already posted the link. Read the "Brakes" line in the table.
It is 134ft Sienna vs 123ft Odyssey (in its heaviest trim) for 60 to 0.
Same for the Consumer Report comparison. Similar result.
Honda Odyssey EX-L RES+NAVI
Toyota Sienna XLE w/ Pkg. 8
Ford Freestyle Limited (fully loaded- according to the 2006 ordering guide, its supposed to be getting a navigation system that year)
Hyundai Entourage (if it has navigation)
I would like some form of park distance control (back up cameras qualify too) navigation, six disc CD changer (if possible- you can't get both the changer and a navigation system on the Sienna) and a power sunroof. (if possible)
I'll probably be buying at the end of 2006 or early 2007...
I'm waiting on the reliability ratings on the Freestyle to come out for 2005 to see if I should keep it on my list or take it off...