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As for the "cheap" comment, you might say that about the Elements side-impact protection after the weak IIHS results. And here they blamed all the extra weight on a supposedly reinforced side structure...
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=58
Forester is right on top. Element is way, way down the list.
Ironic choice of words, "cheap", because Subaru uses exotic metals, Boron steel actually, in the B-pillar, to protect the occupants. Fire fighters complained about them being impossible to cut through even with their jaws-of-life tool.
Here's a cut-away. Note they had to use industrial tools to cut through the exotic, expensive Boron steel Subaru uses.
I'd rather know they were spending the money where it protects lives vs. lumbar support in the seat (at least they have it).
-juice
-juice
The best part is the new front seatbelt - they were integrated in to the front seats, addressing the issue of letting someone out that's in the back without having to remove the front seat belt. Subtle yet important improvement.
-juice
I don't think he was calling the Forester cheap in general...he was simply referring to the mechanicals of the seat. Obviously the Forester has one of the best AWD systems in the world, and does have great safety elements (I used the word element to stay on topic ) One could probably find something on ANY car (even a Maybach) and label it as "cheap".
That's the beauty of the automotive world...everyone has different tastes/preferences/concerns. The seat probably works well for you, but caused him great pain, so he decided to bash that one particular aspect. Some will sacrifice other aspects in order to drive a vehicle that ranks high in crash test results, while others could care less about crash test results.
-juice
-juice
As a commuter car, it does work: easy to park and manuever, gets mileage in the 20-23 mpg (depending if a/c is on) and I've gotten 28 mpg on a trip where I had myself, 3 teens and the back end loaded with gear and clothes.
As to carting the kids, here is where you need to change behavior. With the rear doors, you have to not put on your seat belt and wait to close your door until after th rear door is closed. Not impossible, just a change in behavior. If your kids are very young, it is a long reach back to hand them their bottle, toy, wipe a nose etc. Try it for size before you buy.
Good luck, I think the Element is one of those unsung hero cars/SUVs that will be in demand by teens as a used car in the future because of solid construction and usability.
I can tell you that there is no way I would own an Element if I regularly had people riding in the rear seats - the door setup just isn't practical. In my case, my wife drives it to work, and we have no kids. We do have dogs, and I am looking forward to being able to haul landscaping supplies in it this fall and next spring without having to worry about getting carpet dirty like I do in our other cars. I can't justify owning a truck, so the Element is a good compromise for us.
What about the new seat-mounted belts? Would that change things?
-juice
No (well, partially) - here's an example of why I say impracticle....
Day 2 of our Element ownership, we go out to dinner with another couple. When we arrive and exit the vehicle, one of them tries to close the rear door after closing the front door (instead of closing the rear door, then closing the front door). The rear door made a loud "thud" against the front door. We cringed as they did this...but luckily there was no damage to the front door. If the doors could all close independantly of one another, coupled with the new seatbelt setup, that would improve the overall practicality.
I think I am going to request a 24-36 hour test drive in a demo model tonight. We are making a short trip from Fort Worth to Dallas tomorrow and that would give us a great idea of the feasibility. If we don't get the Element, we will probably get a Civic. I know they are not comparable, but the Civic was the reasonable choice to begin with. If my wife really wants the Element, we will get that.
Yeah, I know what you mean. We have a shuttle van at work and people actually have damaged the front half of the dutch doors.
goltgo: how was loading the baby in the rear facing seat? Do the suicide doors open wide enough, i.e. out of the way so you can load from that side? Or did you just climb in from the other side, carrying the baby?
Our decision to buy it boiled down to the versatility (great for hauling), combined with the value (especially with all the stuff you get with the 4wd EX), and Honda's reputation for reliability.
His car seat is behind the passenger seat, and when he was an infant, you could reach in on the passenger side to put him his seat while still standing on the ground, even though the rear seat is recessed a bit from the door opening. If it was raining, we'd usually bring him in on the driver's side, sit down in the rear passenger seat next to his car seat, and then strap him in. By the time he got big enough that you might not like hefting his weight back into the seat from the right side, it was time to switch him to a front-facing seat, and that made the job easier.
I will say that the clamshell doors make it challenging to get rear passengers situated when you are parked next to another car in a parking lot since you both have to crowd into the arc of the front door in order to get the back door open.
Also, there are only two sets of seatbelts back there, so it's four occupants max in the E.
thanks
Taky
Both kids even open their own doors (this ruled out the XTerra/Armada for us with the high door handles), but not out, since we use the child safety locks.
-juice
The Element is a GREAT commuter car: excellent visibility, easy to park and good rear legroom for adult-sized passengers.
Like you Aztek, the Element has great, usable storage space. The rear seats are also light weight, so if flipping them up and out of the way does not leave you with enough room, they are very easy to remove.
Considering that the car has the aerodynamics of a brick, I think that some wind noise is expected. Factor in an interior shaped like an open box (lined with non-sound deadening plastic) and you find that the road noise has not place to "go". For that reason, I would not add a roof rack, except temporarily when needed. I found that the most of the road noise came from the tires. At about 30K, and after reading several Element-based blogs about replacement tires, I switched to Yokohama Geolanders HTS.
The car MUCH (not slightly, but MUCHO) quieter with these tires. Plus the handling is somewhat improved.
So, trade the Aztek, ask the dealer for either the new tires(they go for about $100/ea) (or to split his cost with you on the new tires). You will be very pleased!
(Maybe Honda will have a last-minute change of heart!)
-juice
thanks in advance
Steve, Host
You can even get a factory dog guard/compartment divider. I would be fine for small/medium sized dogs, but not Dobermans.
I believe the Matrix/Vibe also have a non-carpeted cargo floor, but those may be too small.
-juice
We've had both (leather/cloth), fortunately our dog is small enough to ride on laps.
-juice
Seriously, this forum prepared me really well for my visit to test-drive the Element. Probably would have bought that one today if had been an EX-P, motion sickness and all......
With that said the conclusion would have to be, its you; -- taka a Dramamin and grin ear to ear as your whooozy head is bobbing down the road... :-)
So you may want to see about a third test and make the salesperson check the air first, but if that doesn't help, look elsewhere. I get queasy on some boats and chairlifts and I couldn't tolerate a car that did that to me.
Steve, Host (checking the expiry date on my scolopamine patch Rx right now. :shades: )
Well I am sorta curious too. The rides are a Volvo S70 and a BMW 330ci. I was in the Volvo yesterday thinking about this, and that car has a pretty soft suspension that absorbs the high frequency bumps and maybe the Element's doesn't. The BMW suspension is very stiff and doesn't absorb much so things don't add up there. Haven't had this icky feeling in either car as long as I'm the driver.
I'm really drawn to the Element although my wife isn't. Well, she did say she likes the rubber easy-to-clean mats. You never know what the other person will think when he/she is not a car person. She's given the OK to purchase, but I guess you are right it would really be annoying to spend a bunch of money on a car that I can't drive; I suppose I need to take one more test drive and really focus.
Thanks for the thoughts.
You have permission and funding secured, select the 4WD EX-P and have at it! Stay in touch and report your findings. If the experience becomes unbearable within the first few weeks, simply drop it off in my driveway. I will take good care of it for many moons to come and it will be in good company with the other three Hondas already populating the driveway...
I am making progress though, I did a third test drive of a Forester XT, quite a different car but one I was trying to also consider - and as of now am not making a move till I see the 2007 Element. Probably dreaming but (in addition to them fixing the front seat belt problem) I am hoping they will offer a power driver's seat. I can't get comfortable enough in the manual one to consider a long distance trip, and I'd like to. Guess I better not hold my breath.
Hmmm. I don't ever visit Honda.com, guess I ought to do that. I did sign up for their late breaking news notice or whatever they call it.
http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/current_offers.asp?Function=new
Go to Specials, and current ad...
http://www.ochondaworld.com/
Don't hold your breath. If they start adding stuff to the Element like power seats, power sunroofs, etc... the Element starts to become a different animal than it was originally intended.