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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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/grumble/
Steve
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bdaddy "I think just about any Ford would be more exciting to drive than a Ody, even my grandma's 1994 Escort wagon..." Come on now, speaking of being rational. An Escort Wagon A Huffy bike would be better than any Escort. As far as any Ford better than an Odyssey you could include any van in that statement. They aren't no Corvette, but than again they don't cost like a Corvette.
Reviews say that about the boxy, boring, bland Honda Odyssey? That's funny. I could have sworn they said that about the Grand Caravan ES w/ torquey 3.8 V6 and 17 inch wheels. And If im correct the Town & Country beat the Odyssey is just about every drive category there was and the editors said if they were to take a road trip, they'd take the Town & Country hands down over the competition. I've never driven an Odyssey but just based on what I've read and how it looks, it's hardly a "sporty" or "spirited" car.
Yes, looks can be deceiving, but...
So he says they initial quality study reflects the first 1 or 2 years of ownership, while the durability study is for 4 or 5 years.
I know that they only survey for the first 3 months of ownership on the initial quality study, but according to the studies designers this reflects the first 1-2 years of ownership.
As for one vehicle being boring, boxey, bland etc., beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've driven every 2002 minivan out there, (yes, even the Caravan EX with the mighty 3.8L stump pulling torquey shmorkey engine). Honda beat everybody hands down with the 240 HP V-Tec, the four wheel indepedent suspension, 4 wheel ABS disk brakes and firm, responsive steering. For me it came down to size, safety, ride, handeling and the three R's - resale, resale, resale. till you drive 'em, you're just speculating and wearing your loyalty on your sleeve.
We knew we'd be on roads like this a lot on our roadtrip, so we had tossed the spacesaver spare for a full-sized one. That was a bigger concern to me when I was pricing the Odyssey. I can tolerate some dirt, but I like having a "real" spare, since we still like to tool around on the forest service roads around here, and I seem to have a knack for ruining tires.
Steve
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So he says they initial quality study reflects the first 1 or 2 years of ownership, while the durability study is for 4 or 5 years.
I know that they only survey for the first 3 months of ownership on the initial quality study, but according to the studies designers this reflects the first 1-2 years of ownership.
"
I notice that in that quote he doesn't specifically say the JDP survey tracks the manufacturer's focus of the first 1-2 years. If that quote is what you base it on it is a bit of a stretch unless there is more you omitted.
If it is correct, I don't suppose it's equally reasonable to extrapolate that since the CR reliability data on the current gen Odyssey dates back over 3 years, that that should reflect the first 12-24 years of ownership?
Edmunds found the Chrysler also delivered superior braking performance than the Odyssey stopping from 60-0 8 feet shorter. That could be the difference between life and death. The 2002 Ody has 4-wheel disc breaks (finally) but from what I've heard from owner's hear in the club, there isn't a significant difference in braking feel with the new discs. However, numbers could prove otherwise.
You speak of four wheel independent suspension, how nice. It really must be great. That's why whenever you see an Odyssey with more than 4 people in it, it looks like the back is about to hit the ground. At least Chrysler offers load-leveling suspension on their vans for people who tow or carry heavy loads in their vans. In fact, Edmunds gave Chrysler the nod in suspension performance over the Odyssey in it's comparison test.
And lets not forget the torquey Chrysler 3.8 215hp engine. I'll stop there.
bdaddy, if you want real driving impressions you can find them right here at Edmunds, which is what I base alot of my comments on. You can argue safety cargo capacity fairly easily with the Odyssey but it becomes much harder when you talk about performance and driving characteristics.
As Edmund's says, the Town & Country is a driver's minivan and they don't call it that for nothing.
-Adam (16/M/CA)
My Grand Caravan does have 4 wheel disk brakes, and the load leveling suspension. Even fully loaded for vacation, towing a camper trailer we sit perfectly level. I always wondered how that load leveling works because I have never been able to catch it in action. It definately works though, the van is a campers dream.
-Adam (17/M/CA)
If the DC van was so good, did it take first place? Besides, thats old news, the 02 Odyssey will run circles around the DC van which means not only was it in first place last year but is way out a head this year and this is against a van that was just redesigned. Seems like a new redesigned van should be number 1!
Bingo! My point exactly. You base a lot of your comments on what you read and what you want to believe. As I previously stated, I've driven every minivan out there (with the exception of the VW Eurovan). All I've been trying to say is that before you make all of your comments about torquey this and torquey that, you really should drive the vehicle you're putting down. As far as reviews go, I take them with a grain of salt. (Do you really think reviews don't have biases?) As I've said before, the Odyssey, or any van for that matter, may not be everyone's cup of tea. If it were, they wouldn't need so many different makes and models. Everyone has their own set of determinents for things like seat comfort, ride quality and other subjective measures. As far as the objective measures though,(0-60, braking distance, turning radius, crash test data, H.P. and yes, torque) the numbers speak for themselves. (make sure you use current, 02 data please)
"Base prices start at $16,500 and will probably return there once production is ramped up and the car-buying public calms down. How much can you expect from a car springing from the Dodge Neon platform?"
Am I missing something?
Hersbird, glad your DC is holding up well - I expect the same from my Odyssey. Experiences with other Honda products tells me I have an excellent chance of achieving it. I'm not looking to capitalize on my van's excellent resale value by selling it all the time. Why would I, or anyone for that matter, get rid of a perfectly good vehicle. If that were my intent I would have leased. I can take comfort though, in the fact that when it is time to move on and sell my Odyssey, I'll be obtaining a substantially higher resale or trade in than had I gone with a DC product. (Depending on when I sell it the difference could be $5,000 or more*.)
*Based on estimated residual value after 4 years and a purchase price of $30,000.
If you follow the long term reports for the Cruiser to the more recent ones, you will also see that the construction quality is very high, much higher than the Neon. The PT Cruiser also compared very favorably with Car and Drivers recent Tall Cars test and according to the Edmunds Long term report for April, will be comparing very favorably in their upcoming comparison test.
Thank goodness everyone doesn't have that attitude or there wouldn't be very many vehicles to choose from as most companies would be out of business, most people unemployed, and the few left working would be looking for work as the rest of the car companies would be out of business.
And while the rest of us (including me) are uncontrollably sliding around the road in bad weather conditions, an AWD DC minivan will remain controlled and responsive. I'd say that security (above and beyond traction control, ABS) is worth the potential loss of a few thousand dollars (if even that much), depending on the area you live in. After all, isn't that why so many Odyssey owners got their van in the first place? Because of safety?
-Adam (17/M/Bay Area CA)
The Subaru is better in slippery conditions, no question. Even so, I've never once had a situation where I've been even close to being stuck in the Odyssey. Nor have I been in the situation where AWD has saved me from any hazard in the Outback. It's a nice feature, and I'd consider it on a future vehicle, but I wouldn't put it above crashworthiness as far as safety goes. We may have purchased the Outback without AWD if that was an option to save money and increase fuel economy.
Of course, the slick SUV marketing schemes have ingrained upon us all how necessary AWD is. Ironically, when the first snow hits, I always see far more trucks and SUVs on the side of the road than cars.
Most of us urbanites and suburbanites have done very well with our FWD (and even RWD) cars for years. Sliding uncontrollably is pretty rare if you're used to driving in snow. On the other hand, the minority in extremely rural or hilly areas most certainly have a need for AWD.
Incidentally, that few thousand dollars would easily pay for a number of sets of top quality snow tires. They may not help you accelerate as fast as a vehicle with a quality AWD system, but they will help you STOP faster- and in my opinion that's a lot more important as far as safety goes. Even so, I've never had the need for a set in the Chicago area. Your mileage may differ.
As far as a 2001 compared to a 2001. I could have bought a 2001 GC Sport AWD new for $23,500. It would be worth $18,289 according to Edmunds trade in. So what would a similar 2001 Honda be worth (oh right, they don't have an AWD)? Well say an LX then is worth $20,975 trade in. But it would have cost at least $1500 more (only dealer within 300 miles gets full MSRP no haggling). So you get $1000 better difference with the Honda and the 1st year would probably be the peak. Factor out the extra interest you pay on the more expensive Honda, and higher taxes and you are probably talking a $800 advantage. IMO the AWD is worth $800 more. (actually given my location, and my wifes job, I'd say AWD is worth $5000 more).
Incidentally, some snowbirds opt to buy narrow snow tires. It's the weight divided by the surface area of the contact patch that's really important, especially if studs aren't allowed in your state:-)
AWD is an excellent feature that DC offers on it's minivans. Without AWD Chrysler vans, alot of people who live and travel to to areas with really bad weather would be left out. There aren't that many other viable minivan alternatives out there that offer AWD traction.
-Adam
I did look at Oddysseys but the used ones are still selling for the price of a new Grand Caravan in my area so they are not much of a value used. Eventually someone is going to have to pay the depreciation on these Oddysseys (cars do not last forever - not even Hondas) and I would not like to be the owner when that depreciation kicks in.
Steve
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On a related note, someone suggested putting MSRP and TMV purchase numbers in the Used cars section and that would be real handy in comparing current selling prices against the original cost. May be too much of a data intensive project to justify though.
Oh well, at least I got a plug for TCO in :-)
Steve
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I bought my new AWD T&C for those situations, not snow. And does it deliver. I have not been able to spin the wheels even while turning on rain slicked roads. It is worth the money in my book.
Ed
Speaking of all this horsepower talk, they were going to use the 250 HP Chrysler 300M in the top Grand Caravans, and Town & Country but as it turned out they offered little performance gain over the 3.8. SO what was the point in engineering that motor to work in limited availablity only to be used as a marketing tool, not an actual performance increase. Torque is so important in a heavy van, the 300M does make a little more then the 3.8 but not enough. Same for the 3.8 -vs- the Honda 3.5, I wouldn't go so far as to say the extra 3 ft-lbs is any advantage over the Honda. Maybe the gearing is different on the vans though, that can have huge effect as they basically multiply the torque. Anybody know what the ratios are?
Manufacturer-to-consumer incentives or rebates - these are different from manufacturer-to-dealer incentives and don't affect the actual transaction price; the consumer generally has the choice to apply these funds against the sales price as a down payment, or to accept a check for the amount of the rebate or incentive.
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Steve
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I am like a previous poster. I keep my vehicles as long as they are reliable transportation. The best miles on a vehicle are when it's paid for.
I get a new vehicle when the repairs start getting close to new vehicle payments. So resale value is not a big deal to me. I mean how much will any van be worth with 150K or more miles ?
Lots of people claim they will keep their vehicle "till the wheels fall off" but seldom do they follow through with this. At 150,000 miles there would still be a significant difference in resale between a Honda and domestic minivan, or any other type of vehicle for that matter. There is the opinion (real or perceived - I'll stay away from that debate for now) that Japanese autos have a longer service life than U.S. autos. The perception would be that at 150,000 miles, a Japanese auto would still have a good deal of useful life without the need for significant repairs, while a U.S. auto would be close to the end of it's useful life. I'm sure there are testimonies to this in both directions. I can only recount from my experience with selling a used Acura that this certainly was the case.
Steve
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I couldn't find the drive train info for T&C but, Odyssey is 4.2:1.
I would think that since Edmunds covers all kinds of cars, trucks, and accessories that this would be representative of people who care about cars. Of course there is always someone who would rather walk than ride. But what do they know.
Even Edmunds said themselves that this poll is representative of their own VISITORS. And not the public at large. And as we all know, visitors to Edmunds.com are overwhelmed with reviews saying how great the Odyssey is and how it "trounces its laurels." Whatever. Too many people buy other vans are totally happy with them for that statement to be true. If I didn't drive a Town & Country and read those reviews of the Odyssey, I too might go and vote for the Odyssey just by what the Edmunds reviews claim to be true.
Regarding resale value, I should hope the resale on a new Odyssey is good since so many people seem to be paying at or over MSRP for their vans. This is especially the case with the earlier 1999 and 2000 model Odysseys. Resale value of Chrysler vans doesn't seem so bad any more when you take into consideration how much people actually pay for them.