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From the pictures I've seen I certainly like the Touareg's looks better than the Cayenne (and I would not even consider the H2, for many reasons). And the VW's pricing appears to be way more affordable - it seems like you get a LOT more for your money. The performance stats and sports car handling - the only advantages that stand out in favor of the Cayeene - are not worth this much price premium, IMO. I would think most others will come to the same conclusion and will result on the Touareg outselling the Cayenne by a large margin (5-1 perhaps?). The Touareg seems to do everything very well, and if you don't go too crazy on the option list, it look like you'll be able to buy a very capable SUV for the money.
However, don't underestimate the power of the nametag in those places which do have Porsche dealerships. There will be very strong sales of the Cayenne in the U.S. Despite very strong criticism by Porschephiles when news of the first Porsche SUV started spreading, those selfsame Porschephiles are the ones hunting at the local dealerships waiting for news about the debut. I guess they changed their tune, and figured if you are a Porsche owner and you need a larger family car to go with your 911, what better than one from the same manufacturer? Porsche marketers were insightful enough to see that potential...not to mention all of the Porsche Club and vintage racing folk who will go crazy for the Cayenne as a tow and support vehicle for their 356s and 550s.
Touaregs do seem like the better vehicle. For one thing, VW still uses better materials and has slightly higher fit and finish than Porsche...even owners of 911 Turbos complain that the interior design and materials is not of very high caliber. In many a European car magazine, you can find reviews of Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, Rover, and other marques which compare the interiors against the Golf or Passat as the standard-bearers, and rarely do they feel the competition measures up. In my opinion, the Cayenne interior looks a bit plastic...the grains are not optimally chosen, the center stack looks messy, the steering wheel is not well designed, and the dash material looks too shiny. The Touareg on the other hand uses the excellent matted, textured rubberlike plastic used on most of their current models, with excellent grain matching, and smooth teutonic design cohesiveness and luxurious materials.
2. H2 ground clearance is static...ALWAYS the same. VW has all-independent, so it's ground clearance changes with terrain. In addition, don't forget that about the clearance of the CONTROL ARMS of the independent suspension! Those control arms are lower and may drag in off-roading.
3. Wheel articulation is far superior in the H2 or any other solid-axle SUV. VW has a car suspension with car-like wheel travel.
4. Breakover angle on the H2 with rear air suspension is around 27-29 degrees.
5. How about strength and durability of a solid rear axle...and not to mention the superior wheel articulation???
6. How about the risk of electronic failure of the air suspension of the Touareg?? If this fails, the VW is no better than an X5. BTW, it is very possible to have these electronic suspension go bad...just ask Range Rover owners. My brother's LX470 occasionally has it's own mind.
BTW, i do NOT own nor plan to own a H2. I have a 4Runner 4wd.
Seems like you might need a big Suburban to tow that much. What do you think. Like I would buy a Suburban if I needed to tow that much. (I'm not crazy enough to buy GM--know two people with 2002 GMC's and had all kinds of trouble--one finally caught on fire and burned up--other has had 3 rear ends installed--maybe 2--but too many.
Just bought new Nissan Murano and like it a bunch. I have a limit on what I will spend on a vehicle and Murano hit my price point and got what I wanted. But Touareg sure looks interesting.
I would be confident towing up to 7,000 Lbs in a Touareg without any worries - if the manufacturer is willing to publish that figure, the truck is likely capable for much more.
You obviously live in SF (me too) have you driven the Touareg at Gunther (didn't think they were out yet)? Tested the FX-35 last weekend, has given me some relunctance to rush out and buy a VW SUV. Really concerned about underpowered Touareg V6 model. V8 out of sight (price). FX-35 right in the 36-37K range. The FX was certainly more Sports than Utility (but still had a fair amount of room).
I drive a VW GTI as my commuter car. In the 18 months I've owned it, I've received two "scarlet letters" informing me about problems. The first is the well-known issue of the windows dropping into the door when the "window regulator" fails. The second is the well-known issue of the ignition coils failing on the car. The 1.8T has one coil per cylinder so there are 4 to fail. In both cases, the letter said that if these parts failed, I was to bring the car into the dealership to have the car repaired at no cost. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it. If there's a known defect in the car, the car should be recalled and repaired. I now get to wonder if my car will die off in the boonies with a failed coil pack. I now get to wonder if the window will drop into the door when it's -20F. And this company thinks it's going to start selling $60,000 luxury cars and $40,000+ luxury SUVs?
I drove the Cayenne...which at least gives a small taste of the size, room, and maybe a few of the shared fittings, though with Porsche doing its own assembly, interior and exterior panels, and engine, it doesn't provide enough info about the Touareg. As far as space, the Porsche was roomy enough for 4 people comfortably, and 5 for short drives. I would estimate the same room as my W8 Wagon, with more height.
As for the Infiniti...though I find the design interesting, it wouldn't be a vehicle I would be in the market for. It is powerful enough and drives with very sporting intentions, but the space in the back is entirely too small for cargo, the passenger room in the rear seat is tight, the roof is way too low for over 6 footers to be comfortable, and of course there is virtually no off-road capability built into the vehicle. I tested the Murano when it debuted, also because I thought it looked interesting. Again, nice ideas, but too car like and loses too many of the functions which would make me want to buy an SUV. My Passat W8 Wagon has better cargo room and interior space than either of the Nissan offerings, has roughly the same accelerative abilities of the Infiniti, while handling and braking better than both. For me, an SUV should truly have the "U" part of the equation to make it worth choosing over a sport wagon, since it is the only thing truly giving them an advantage in my mind. Otherwise, too many compromises are made just to have a higher, overweight, ill-handling station wagon.
The Touareg looks like the first SUV I have been truly interested in in a while. I do have an MDX, which is leased. It replaced my last (1997) Mitsubishi Montero, and though initially it seemed a good choice and the on-road dynamics of the MDX are pleasant enough, it just doesn't really do anything better than my wagon does, while doing many things worse.
Geoffdgti - though I partially agree with your frustration over receiving the recall notices, and do agree that VW should as soon as possible begin preventative fixes of the problems with the coilpacks, they ARE currently replacing the window lift pieces on all four windows without requiring a failure, at least in our area. I think the fact that they acknowledged the coil pack problem is a good thing, since many manufacturers still attempt to hide some of their problems which should be recalled. For example, Acura has had problems with their ECUs failing on MDXs at abnormally high rates, yet we never received a recall, and after seeing threads about the problems and beginning to worry, we still had to go through the ignomious embarrassment of being stranded on the side of the road with a non-responsive accelerator and a blinking CEL. BMW has had very consistent problems with cold engine behavior on their M3s; often the cars stall out requiring multiple starts, and run very rough for the first few minutes. A simple fix to the ECU program and an adjustment of the initial fuel sending on start up has solved the problem, however BMW has never announced such a problem, and only fixes the problem if and when customers complain and bring their cars in. Also with BMW, would you like to know how many I-drive modules have been replaced in the new 7-series? And still no official recall, on a $70,000+ car.
I will have no problem with my local dealerships selling VWs at $40K, $50K, $60K and more. My experiences with VW have been excellent, and my VW dealership experience both in sales and service have exceeded my most recent experiences purchasing both an Acura MDX and a Mercedes CLK Cabrio.
Again, this is just my experience. You have had a lesser experience, and that is regrettable. Unfortunately, only time will tell if more people have good experiences or bad experiences at their VW dealerships. I hope the result will be much as it was with Lexus...that people purchase based on product and price, and not on history and prejudice (No critic thought anyone would ever buy a $50,000 Toyota, by any name). The new redesigns sweeping many of the VW dealerships throughout the country (our were converted very early a few years ago), and the training that salespersons have undergone, seems excellent. Rumor I have heard is that only the new style, redesigned dealerships will be selling the Phaeton and Touareg.
There apparently is no "perfect" solution: MB- great cars and service, but no SUV worth buying, Infinit FX looks very appealing, but terrible residual value, BMW X-5 nice SUV, but arrogant dealers and out of sight pricing, Porsche, sorry way above my price range, Lexus - great service, RX too oriented to soccer mom's. This is a real problem which is why I keep driving my Passat. Need a real compelling reason to make the switch.
Apparently this whole coil pack mess has proven to be a major embarrassment to VW primarily in the way they handled the situation. VWA has just announced the appointment of a Quality Control Officer in part to hasten factory response to marketplace demands. Sounds like the first step in the right direction. Let's hope.
“There apparently is no "perfect" solution: MB- great cars and service, but no SUV worth buying”
That sentence caught my eye, I am curious to know why you think the ML is not worth buying?
I bought a 99 ML430, purchased in 1998, this is the much maligned SUV, right after I bought it I read all the reports saying how horrible vehicle it was, I said to myself I blew it, especially since I paid cash. Now going into five years I never had any problems, minor or major.
I did not buy my ML just to go around town, I bought it for a purpose, during the summer every chance I get I like to go to the beach in the Gulf Coast, I used to tow my two three seater jetskies with my pickup, but I like to go to some secluded areas which means off the road into sand and some steep boat landings, after getting stuck and slipping and sliding a few times I said I want a AWD vehicle, I read the literature on the ML, test drove it and said OK.
In this five years I got to know and like it better as time goes by, not only do I tow my jetskies but also a big 23ft fishing boat, way over 5000lbs. I have also got it stuck in deep mud to the doorsills (anything will get stuck in the mud, I also stuck my Unimog with 4ft tires). In all fairness it does real well in the mud considering and take it from a guy who has done thousands of miles of off the road traveling for many years. I guess the point I am trying to make is that I have put my ML to hard use and after all this it rides tight and smooth as the day when I bought it, it has taken the hard long hauls better than my GM pickup.
The ML just won its third Dakar race in the unmodified class (for production time against Dakar wins it has by far the best ratio of any manufacturer), meaning as is from the show room, no modifications are allowed, plus hundreds of other rallies so far, underneath the skin a very substantial truck hides, just take a look underneath. I would not dismiss the ML so lightly.
Is funny, seems like yesterday I bought the truck and was feeling down about the negative publicity and my possible mistake, now I look with contempt all those shinny new SUV’s going about town.
I did not come here to bash or sell, I have an interest on the Touareg, especially that V10 diesel, about the same time we bought a Passat and it also has been a good and pleasant ownership.
I am attaching a picture I took at the Alabama plant a while ago, judge by yourself that beefy transmission. (click on the hi res for better view)
http://www.funtigo.com/MLtransmission
The issue is that I haven't received a recall notice for either failure. All I got was a letter telling me that if it broke, come in and get it fixed. I just had the GTI in for a 40,000 mile service. They didn't replace the coil packs. They didn't replace the window regulators. I inquired about both. There were ~50 dead VWs in their lot waiting for parts and the scene of irate VW owners milling around the service waiting room was pretty ugly.
Knock on wood, my VW has been flawless and my dealer service has been fine, if not exactly fawning all over me with service and perks like a Mercedes dealership. I bought a 100K extended warranty and I'm beginning to wonder if this is my first-ever car where I don't make my money back on the extended warranty. I'm pretty happy with my econobox but I'm not sure I'd want to buy a $50,000 luxury car or lux-SUV from VW.
Oh, and if you haven't gotten a recall letter on the coilpacks, rumour is you soon will.
BTW anyone know roughly when this sucker is gonna be available? I am very very interested in getting one but I need a new car soon and don't think I can wait til the summer if that's when the Touareg does indeed come out.
1. It does use ABS-assisted 4-wheel traction control system.
2. HOWEVER, it has clutch-packs on the center AND rear differential...both of which are "lockable".
So, in normal driving, it acts very similar to a BMW X5, Mercedes M-class, etc.. However, when off-roading, you have the option of locking the center diff for 50/50 power split between front and rear axles. In addition, to provide more consistent push, you can also lock the rear axle. The front axle is still controlled by the traction control system (ABS-system). Similar to the Hummer H2 setup.
Clutch packs are located in the center and rear differential. It controls the power distribution between front & rear (center diff) and left & right on the rear axle (rear diff). The front axle is open differential.
My comment about the ML pertained to ME personally, not specifically the vehicle. The ML is an excellent SUV for its intended job, albeit the initial reliablility problems that plagued the ML in its first few years.
My problem is that we (my wife and I) don't really need an SUV...I want one for the occasional time we need to haul stuff around and constantly have to ask a friend with an SUV to help out. My Passat does just about everything we need, except in those large volume occasions.
But, back to the ML, I have test drove it and like it, but not enough to rush back and sign up for one. My wife is on the short side, had difficulties in getting up and out of the vehicle, which I had to consider. The step-in is certainly not car like. So, unless I come up with something more car like, I'm still looking. Maybe the FX or the Touareg will fill my needs.
....RBS
Or contact the State Attorney General (Consumer Protection Office or whatever your state calls it).
Or hire a lawyer and send a demand letter.
Or contact the BBB and/or the VW "zone manager."
Or picket the dealer, call the TV stations ....
Or complain about the dealer on Town Hall :-)
Or some combination of the above.
Steve, Host
And $2500???
I have posted here more than once that US Touaregs don't begin production until April, with original deliveries late May; early June.
This has now been pushed back a month or so...Fall, to me is October...
On Star will be a component option...We even have a required course/overview on Telematics.
Did you sign anything indicating that the Deposit was non-refundable?
The State Attorney General should be able to tell you your rights.
Will the Touareg have a similar mechanism? If yes, can someone please provide some more details? Specifically:
a) Is the ball on the end replaceable to support either 1-7/8 or 2" balls?
b) What if I have a hitch-mounted bike rack that slides into a "standard" 2" receiver? Will I be able to use this with a Touareg?
Thanks.
-Alex
A very good friend of mine lost a $1k deposit a few months ago on an '03 Expo.
My advise is this: read the t's & c's on the back of the buyers order, specifically the delivery clause. They cannot perform (deliver the automobile) within the term defined, therefore the buyers order should be void. Have your atty. send Paulie a love letter stating this.
Do yourself a favor, stay away from Miller, and tell all of your friends and neighbors the same. There is really no room for them in our community.
Essex Fells, NJ
I am getting into the SUV game here and have only driven my father's 2000 Lexus RX300. I am going to lease this for my wife. She puts on about 10K a year and because of work, half can be written off.
Here is where I need help.
The comparison includes:
1. Mercedez ML320
2. Lexus RX300
3. Acura MDX
4. Nissan Murano
6. Infiniti FX35
7. VW touregg
8. BMW X5 3.0
Here are the factors important for her:
1. Easy to drive
2. appeal (she loves the interior of the fx and the exterior of the Jeep GC)
3. No need for a third seat, just a little extra storage
4. leasing programs (residuals, price, maintenance)
5. Safety (no need for off road capabilities)
6. The standard 6 cyl. engines in all of these are plenty
7. Snow friendly
What should be my first move?
The BMW is pretty sparse on cargo capacity and I hear that it doesn't handle the snow very well due to the wide stock tires.
The Mercedes has had some reliability and built quality issues.
The FX is more SPORT than Utility.
The Touareg has been designed to perform both on road and off. If you don't need an SUV for going offroad why pay the exra $$ for a package that provides what you don't need?
The MDX has a third row . . . again, if you don't need it, why get it?
The Murano would also be a good choice but I hear that is provides a harsher ride than the Lexus.
Just my $.02.
I am in the market for a new SUV and if my wife did not already have the MDX, it would be a close call between that and the VW Touareg. I just saw the VW at the Cleveland Auto Show and it is impressive. I stood around a while and watched people's reaction and listened to their comments - this will be a big seller! Interior is superb, which is what the Volvo XC90 is lacking. I will be putting my deposit down next week to secure a position in line when the cars are delivered.
Here's the link;
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2003/- january/0301_comparo_bradsher.xml
I was told that for a Touareg with the V8 (same engine I have in an 02 A8) the base price is $40,700 and fully loaded with all option packages (there are 4) will be $47000.
We saw the car at the Chicago Auto Show and it was beautiful (but locked). VW has put out an in depth (8 page) report on the German-spec version. I'm curious if anyone knows how the US version may differ, other than the V10 engine. The German car has everything imaginable on the car. If the same vehicle appears in US dress,at $47,000 it may be the best deal in many years. Anyone have any info?
The V8 I saw at the auto show was 50k.
Happy shopping!
I PUT DOWN THE DEPOSIT AS A PRE-EMPTIVE MOVE IN CASE SHE LIKES THE CAR. IF NOT, THERE ARE ENOUGH FX35'S AROUND AND MAYBE I CAN GET HER TO RECONSIDER THE GX470.
> with the V8 (same engine I have in
> an 02 A8) the base price is $40,700
> and fully loaded with all option
> packages (there are 4) will be $47000.
>
> We saw the car at the Chicago Auto
> Show and it was beautiful (but locked).
> VW has put out an in depth (8 page)
> report on the German-spec version.
> I'm curious if anyone knows how the
> US version may differ, other than
> the V10 engine. The German car has
> everything imaginable on the car. If the same
> vehicle appears in US dress,at $47,000
> it may be the best deal in many years.
> Anyone have any info?
peteri44--
According to Car and Driver, the base price of the V8 has dropped to $39,500. I don't believe that the VW dealers have received their order decks yet, so who knows? I believe a fully loaded V8, however, tops out wll over $50K. http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2003/2003_5best- _trucks_touareg.xml
Someone snapped a picture of the sticker from the Chicago Auto show's V8. You should be able to find it in the VWVortex Touareg forum.
mike
At the recent Atlanta Auto Show most cars had prices posted next to the wheelwell and I was shocked when I saw the 50k plus price tag for the V8.
I didn't really focus on the options after seeing that sticker shock.
I think the price was like $50,650.00 or something.
V6 starts at 34k
I also thought the Volvo SUV was cramped as well, excpet the Volvo seemed a bit more roomy in the front two spots.
mike
The Cayenne is a joke by the way......
> 35 grand but anything over that I
> get nervous. I mean, it doens't have
> much more cargo space than a Jetta
> wagon. not much more passenger space
> than a Passat. Sure it has PANACHE
> and some good off road skills but
> to tote soccer balls.....
From VW's Website:
Car, Interior Volume, Cargo Seats up, Cargo Seats Down
Jetta Wagon, 89cu ft, 34 cu ft, 51.9 cu ft
Passat Wagon, 98cu ft, 39 cu ft, 56.5 cu ft
Touareg, not published, 31.3cu ft, 70.9 cu ft.
That's about a 37% increase in total cargo capacity, and on par with the Nissan Murano. It pales in comparison to the Pilot (90cu ft), however.
mike