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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I did say "lack of doors notwithstanding" regarding your coupe vs. sedan point (it's a valid point for some buyers). Put plainly, if you absolutely need 4-doors, then you don't belong in a 1-series discussion. If, on the other hand, you simply need a backseat (which is the case for many "2nd/backup car shoppers"), the upright "2-door sedan" design of the 1er should be just fine.

    My point is simply that from a performance/value standpoint, the 1-series absolutely demolishes the E46.
  • Fed,

    Will ignore the doors - which I think is integral to the discussion at hand as the utility of the car is diminished 1000% percent with only two doors.

    I have no driven the 1, so I can't comment on how it performs vis-a-vis an e46. If it's anything like the e90, then no it will do the exact opposite of demolish. On the remote chance it's not like the e90, then sure it could be more fun to drive than an e46. I highly doubt that given BMW's track record the past few years.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    My bad - this is the sedan forum, not the 1-series forum (hard to differentiate sometimes when I read so many).

    Yes, on this forum, 4-doors is a much more significant discriminator.
  • Could you tell me where you got your pricing info on the 1? Also, what's available to put into the little beast.
  • Edmunds' blog entry has some info and bimmerfest has the listings for everything. The available stuff pretty much matches the 1 series (essentially the same pricing too).

    1 series pricing from Fedlawman: fedlawman, "BMW 1-Series" #993, 16 Nov 2007 7:29 pm
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Congratulations! Let me know when they change the exterior so I can open my eyes!

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,306
    What!

    You don't want to drive a pimpmobile?

    You clearly don't fit into the demographic. Well done!
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,904
    I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Is this the same magazine that named the NEON as its car of the year (or was that AUTOMOBILE?).

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Interesting that the year did not even start yet! Talk about premature.

    I have my own COTY award that I bestow on Jan. 1st of the MY.

    Regards,
    OW
    Chief Editor
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Me too. I just crowned my Car Of The Year. Is it the same as yours?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Yes, one of the cars you drove at the drive event you attended! I need to keep it under wraps to let the anticipation build to a national outcry. Then, the reveal!

    BTW, its called the Circle Award.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Just curious, why the "have to have" V8? ...

    The effortless acceleration of a V8. I drove the 535i Sport the same day, and it just didn't cut the mustard with me. The delayed kick-down of the automatic, the seemingly slow buildup of speed/power... It just didn't feel as nice as the 550i. The 550i, to me, rides better, is quieter, and feels more planted. And at cruising speed, the sound of the V8 completely disappears. The I6 definitely makes enough fuss at speed to make it known that it's working hard for you. In a 3-series, that's tolerable. In a 5-series, at that price, it's totally unacceptable. That's why, when I was still searching, my focus was mainly on the V8 cars (A6 4.2, M45, E550, GS430, 550i.) However, the 535i was in the running because of its twin turbos and power output, but after driving it, I came back to my original requirements. I made the same mistake with the RL, only to be even more disappointed.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,600
    .....The I6 definitely makes enough fuss at speed to make it known that it's working hard for you. In a 3-series, that's tolerable. In a 5-series, at that price, it's totally unacceptable......

    It's the individual's call about a 535 vs. 550, I6 biturbo vs.V8, something I wouldn't argue. But, after almost 5000 mi. with my '08 535, I couldn't disagree more with your comment above. It is simply something I have not found to be true. In fact it is so seamless in acceleration and silky smooth and quiet that I have to keep reminding myself that it isn't an "8".

    (BTW, I also am enjoying my current 26.4 mpg in (mostly city) combination city/ highway driving and my lease savings compared to a 550.)
  • Not an owner but having looked at pricing/power/economy, I'd side with you that the 535 seems like a wise choice.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,600
    Not an owner but having looked at pricing/power/economy, I'd side with you that the 535 seems like a wise choice.

    My point was not what car, the 535 or 550 is the "wise choice", because that is personal choice. My issue with tayl0rd was that he made the 535 sound like it was straining and was anemic. Believe me, it's neither.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I can appreciate what you are saying about the subjective feel and sound of the V8 vs. the I6, even if the I6 is now nearly as powerful and quick as the V8. I still recall my test drive of the former M5 and how impressed I was with the effortless acceleration and free revving engine. If somebody knows where I could find a new 2002 M5 that was packed in ice, I'd buy it tomorrow.

    On the other hand, I wonder if you feeling regarding the I6 was tainted by saddling it with an automatic transmission? Didn't you say a manula transmisson was also a "have to have"? I've been surprised enough by the difference in feel between the same car with a manual vs. automatic to know I would never pre-judge the manual by the automatic.
  • Considering the weight is nearly the same as the 335i it's easy to believe its power to weight is quite good.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    ... On the other hand, I wonder if you feeling regarding the I6 was tainted by saddling it with an automatic transmission? ...

    That wasn't my choice. It was all they had. And some of the automatic lovers here claim how "wonderful" and "equal to/better than the manual" it is, I figured I'd give it a try. I was very disappointed.

    And I didn't say the I6 was wheezing or straining, just that you can tell that it is working harder than the V8 from the "noise." I wasn't trying to be offensive.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,676
    I was just doing a search the other day (my manager is looking for a 6 series) and came across this 2003 M5 with only 12Kmiles (in my geographic area)...

    Impressive, but not sure if the price is appropriate for the age.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    That car looks amazing! He/She definitely took fantastic care of it, for sure. But I wouldn't pay $50K for it. Being a 2003, that means it was probably sold in 2002 which means it's near 6 calendar years old. A 2003 M5 sold for, what, $75K when new? He/She still wants 67% of MSRP on a 6 year old car? Heck, you can't even get 67% residual on a 3 year lease for an M5! (Granted, the mileage is remarkably low on that car, but still.) I'm pretty sure he's negotiable on the price.

    I'd still go check it out if I were you.
  • It's the individual's call about a 535 vs. 550, I6 biturbo vs.V8 ..... after almost 5000 mi. with my '08 535 ..... it is so seamless in acceleration and silky smooth and quiet that I have to keep reminding myself that it isn't an "8".

    +1 with my 535Xi.

    I hope this isn't too far off topic, but my wife and I just finished the BMW two day performance driving school. The last event we did was to drive each of three cars for 3 laps around what I would call a small, rather tight road race loop as fast as we wanted to go / as fast as we could go. We first took turns driving a 6 cylinder X-5, and were amazed at how we could sling that vehicle around the corners. Next, we drove an M-5 with SMG. It handled great, and had power, but not as overwhelming as I had imagined. Lastly, we drove a 335i with Steptronic and sport suspension- wow, was that car a screamer! I think over that short loop, with us two ametuers driving, the 335i was faster than the M-5. Just like in my own 535Xi, the engine in the 335i was uber responsive and very fast in acceleration.

    One of the instructors said they have driven the 135i. He said they did a drag race with an M-6, and up to about 80 mph the 135i was faster.

    Bruce
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I agree, that asking price is high by $7-$10k.

    However, not sure where you are getting 6 years old. My (late production) 2005 911S is 26 months old. The local BMW dealer wants me to come in for a "great deal" on a brand new 2007 550i 6-speed (not a demo 23 miles on odometer). So, worst case scenario, that M5 is just barely 5 years old, possible as little as 4 and a couple of months, but definitely not 6.

    And also, don't forget that M5's sold for at least 100%+ of MSRP, with no ability to get European Delivery discounts. So, you can't really compare resale prices of a limited production car like the M5 to a mass produced 550i. The 2007 that the dealer called me on has an MSRP of $69,880. I told him not to waste my time unless he's weilling to take at least $9,000 off and his response was that I could have the car for $61k tomorrow, if I wanted it. At this particiular dealership, if I had asked for a $500 discount on a 2003 M5, I would have been laughed out of the showroom.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    You did see where I said "it was probably sold in 2002 which means it's near 6 calendar years old," right? We're heading headlong into 2008 right now. 2008 - 2002 = 6

    Near means close, but not quite, or next to, or in the vacinity of. :P

    And why can't I compare the prices? An M5 depreciates the same as any other 5-series. It just has a much higher initial price, and price gouging is NEVER accounted for in resale. The depreciation is relatively the same. Limited edition or not, it's still an outdated model. The mass produced thing is also relative. I believe someone (wasn't it you?) said there are actually more M5s in the States than there are V8 5-series, year-to-year. That would make a V8 non-M 5-series more exclusive and rare than an M5. So my 550i Sport should theoretically hold it's relative value better than an M5! :) Especially with it being a stick.
  • I happen to own a 2003 M5 with 45k miles. And, coincidentally, before I bought the M5, I had been all set to purchase a 545i Sport 6-speed. The party that had the M5 on order defaulted, dealer called me and I came in with a check for full MSRP that afternoon.

    The M5 certainly depreciates, but not proportionally as much as the standard V8 5-series. At least not in my (Pittsburgh) area. I paid $75,800 for mine, and have been offered $38,000 in cash (not trade) by the dealer. The 545i had an MSRP of $62,000 and would probably be worth around $26,000 today (rough estimate by my dealer). The big difference is that the M5 has a dedicated enthusiast following. Everyone knows what it is. The 545i/550i 6-speeds are very nice cars, but less than 10% of V8 buyers opt for the 6 speed. The vast majority are automatics and sold to an affluent, but not necessarily "driving enthusiast" demographic. That definitely makes resale a bit more of a challenge and my dealer indicated he would only take a 545/550 of any kind on a trade (would not buy for cash).

    I didn't buy the M5 with resale value being a high consideration. But I'm pretty sure that if I looked at the numbers, I'd get most of the additional $15k I spent on the M5 over the 545i back, if I decided to part with it tomorrow. But I have no interest in doing that. It still drives like the day I bought it and there really is nothing sweeter in a sedan than that hand built M engine effortlessly running up to redline or that sport suspension handling the curves almost as well as my 911 Turbo.

    P.S. I bought in May 2003, making it exactly 4 1/2 years old. As in precisely.
  • 2008s are on the lot. Whether you bought that 2003 car in January of 2004 or September of 02, a 2003 car is viewed as 5 years old.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,584
    It's all beside the point, really...

    The question is: Is $49K a good price for an '03 M5 with very low miles?

    Seems pricy to me... I think somewhere in the mid-$'40s...

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • As a 2003 530SP owner (Titanium Silver/Black), this is one beautiful M5! All mine lacks is the punch from the new TT motor, but I'd seriously give a clean, low-mileage '03 M5 a close look.

    It only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but agree tht it is priced at least 5-7K too high. Owner is adding a low miles premium and it does appear to be in fantastic condition.

    As much as I love some of the new cars on the market from BMW, Audi, Infiniti, etc.; I still maintain an attachment to my car. After any test drive of another vehicle, I drive my car home and understand what a great ride it is all over again!

    Will say that the new Audi S5 intrigues me. Very nice car. 6-sp only at this time, with Tiptronic on the way around April '08. Drives beautifully as a high performance touring coupe. Would not even consider a MB CLK after driving the S5. 335 Coupe is still strong, IMO, due to being such a great performer. Have had a fantastic ownership experience with my BMW... unsure about the S5 prospects at this time.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Whether you bought that 2003 car in January of 2004 or September of 02, a 2003 car is viewed as 5 years old.

    I agree, but apparantly another posted has figured out that because 6 is in the "vacinity" (sic) of 5, it's really a 6 year old car. :confuse:

    Fortunately, my 12 year old is a little more precise with her math skills and hasn't suggested that, since shes in the "vicinity" of 16, she should start learning to drive the 911. Which would put me in the vicinity of a heart attack. ;)

    P.S. Since when is even a 6 year old M5 a "entry level" luxury performance sedan. I suspect this digression will soon be terminated by the Host.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Sure will, especially since someone's too childish to be able to avoid personal insults. The maturity level must be in the "vicinity" of the 12 year old girl's. :sick:
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