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And as the STI is comparable in every performance catagory to sports cars costing far more I would say yes it is a sports car. Good luck finding an is300 or 3 series that can compete with it.
Performance is an aspect of luxury but does not make a car a luxury car. All the sedans we are discussing have a blending of luxury/performance.
Way I look at it is that the FWD 4-cyl TSX and 9-3 set the bare minimum for this category. From there you initially move up to the 325i, X-type 2.5, and C-class. Then onto the IS300, G35, TL, X-type 3.0, 330i, etc. Hard to say where it ends. But always thought $40,000 was into the next category.
Subaru just doesn't seem to pass the marque bar. Certain marques almost automatically qualify:
Acura, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, MB, Saab, and Volvo. But VW is clearly moving into this market.
Thinking the Passat W8 6-speed manual and Sport Pkg certainly qualifies in our discussion. If VW can, guess Subaru might too? Old Ford Taurus SHO would have, too.
Nonsense, how so? M3 is stripped of must luxurious content yet commands an extreme price hike. M5 is fast and great, but look at the price compared to say a CTS-V which has similiar size, features, power, etc. I know a new one is coming out to so yall can save that lecture. I'm just illustrating the point the more companies are going to continue to succesfully low ball BMW and MB with equally equipped and performing cars for thousands less. WRX and STi might have all the performance in the world, but they are narrow focused products. The what determines a near luxury car from say pocket rocket. WHat else can the Evo/Sti do but go fast?
"Cramming 400 horses down its throat, just isn't going to cut it."
That's another interesting post. People on here are talking about the Sti and Evo being near luxury cars and others are saying the CVT-S isn't going to cut it when a comparably equipped 530i or E320 with 225 and 221 hp respecively can cost more than the V. Well, if the V won't cut it, what will? You get 400hp, standard everything except sunroof, and a usuable rear seat and trunk all for under $51k. Meanwhile, 6 cyl BMW 3s and MB Cs can touch $44+ without a problem. A define near luxury cars as those who's prices start around $30k and provide somewhat uplevel features and safety equipement not found or not standard on cheaper midsized cars. There are a few cars that bend the rule such as the Maxima or Avalon. They can be had stripped or equipped with almost every two in the book. A WRX or Evo are not near luxury cars by any strech of the imagination. However, hear's the real question, how can cars like the 3 series and C class be near luxury when people can barely fit in the back seat? I would just have a problems plunking down $40k if I couldn't fit in the back or get a weekends worth of suitcases in the trunk.
Is a ride in the space shuttle a luxury? Yes. But what the heck does that have to do with a luxury sedan? Hey, you can get shot out of a cannon and go REALLY fast. Is that a luxury? And, if so, does it have anything to do with this discussion? if a tree falls in the forest .... ah, forget it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The STi is not luxury. Fast? Yes. Cool? To me, yes, to others yes, to some, no?
Would I want one? Hell no, not at 34, with three kids.
The 04 TL 6 speed manual with navigation was the best combination of luxury and performace I could get in my price range (also looked at Maxima, ES, IS, G35).
There is obviously a class of car...hmmm...sports sedans perhaps, that combine performance and luxury. Some tilt more to performance (IS, 3/5 series), some more to luxury (ES, G35) and some are a perfect blend of the two...my TL (ducking now as those German fans throw stuff at me).
No way that the STi is a sports sedan. Great perfromance. No luxury.
So my zx-11 ninja is the king of the land then?
Luxury is not a function of power and perf. A town car and a 3 series are both luxury. As luxury's go, I'd say speed is one of them...but alone it does not a lux car make. How is an STI that most people think is (AND IS) an impreza ever considered lux? Unless the platform is rigid as 3 series or even a passat then forget it. It's an economy car that goes fast..real fast. Lux cars have luxury and are not annoying to drive tho after a 9 hour trip
Does the 911 belong in the "High End Luxury Marque" thread? I say yes and our host Pat agreed when the couch-potato-luxury fans tried to throw it out.
STi costs the same as TL and G35... all are available with four doors.
Pat, what do you say? Does STi get the boot?
;-)
For 3-4K more: ONSTAR/NAV, more leather/suede/aluminum, sound deadining, Mcintosh stereo, the plain WRX aero wing for you "Too Cool Stylistas" would dress this car up nicely. So for 35-36K you could have a car that blows away all of the popular cars in this segment, and still nice enough to take out a young lawyer babe.
Never mind the STi though, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
The Imprezza is an econobox at heart, as is the Neon. The Legacy is a mid-size people mover like the Accord and Camry. They're all from manufacturers that are purely pedestrian.
Acura's often noted as a tweener company as things like the RSX on the low end keep the high end from being taken seriously.
Go into Nordstrom and you see button downs for $15 like at Mervyn's then you're dragging down the brand. And when buying near luxury, you are buying into a brand image - which is entirely perceived.
Subaru builds a fast car on a cheap platform. It's a fast, cheap car that has prices which edge toward 30k.
The same can be said of say Dodge with its 300m. It's still in the same exact brand as the 14k Neon.
On the other hand, STI does not even TRY to become one. Yes it has performance, but thats about it. No more and the price tag of this car is below near luxury performance sedan. Loud engine, no radio. I dunno but IMO Luxury means comfort, relaxing car environment, quiet ride, and maybe auto features for all devices such as dual auto climate, auto on off light, rain sensing wiper, auto pilot (just kidding).
CTS-V, 5 series price tag is above near luxury sedan.
OMG - Infiniti is now a luxury brand. OK ;] Who knew?
Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo are premium brands. Audi, Jag, and Lexus are luxury brands. Infiniti is moving up but not quite there.
Subaru is a premium brand in terms of engineering but not there in terms of prestige. The upgraded Legacy might change that perception.
Never mind the STi, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
Price does not equal luxury status. Nobody calls a 35k Explorer a near luxury vehicle. Or a 40k Expedition a luxury vehicle. It's still a Ford.
I think everyone understands that the lichpin for luxury is comfort. To me, climate control is a big must-have for any luxury car. Quiet and some degree of isolation from envronmental harshness is another.
And saab is definitely a luxury car. At a time i had a '97 328 and a '97 900SET and the SET in several ways was more luxurious (seats), although in several ways not (isolation).
Remember Luxury is branding. A ford by nature of being a ford is not a luxury vehicle. The GT is still a Ford, regardless of price and performance.
Kmart can sell a leather coat with diamonds for 5k but it's still not an Armani.
OMG - Infiniti is now a luxury brand. OK ;] Who knew?
Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo are premium brands. Audi, Jag, and Lexus are luxury brands. Infiniti is moving up but not quite there.
Subaru is a premium brand in terms of engineering but not there in terms of prestige. The upgraded Legacy might change that perception.
Never mind the STi, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
I guess I've been thinking of "near luxury" as "entry level luxury" and the reality is they could mean two different things. If you thikn about it, the term NEAR luxury would tend to describe vehicles like the new loaded-up Accords - because of the word near as in "close to" - "close to" luxury is not entry-level luxury, and I think for the most part entry-level luxury has been the main focus here.
Should we create a price range (how about $32-$42k?) along with a certain level of amenities - leather, premium stereo, climate control, power seat adjustments, upper range of safety features, perhaps navi, available at least as options? What else? How should we quantify "performance"? I guess that's been a big stumper here, hasn't it.
Should we change the name of this discussion? The opening post here does a great job of explaining the creator's intent, but maybe the name creates a little confusion. cybersol Mar 23, 2002 2:04pm
It would be nice if we could agree on a definition so we could talk about the cars instead of spending so much energy on the focus of the discussion itself! :-)
When I read near or entry-level lux I think of cars that are scraping the bottom of the luxury barrel - the 3 series, the C class, IS300, ES300, Type X. These are cars from luxury brands that are used to suck in buyers. Get them into the luxury fold with low prices and attempt to move them upmarket when they trade out in 3-5 years.
It's a luxury brand selling first the brand and then the amenities - some upmarket bits - but for the most part it's about getting buyers to associate good things with a brand. They want buyers to identify with the brand and hope the buyers are looking to graduate up.
The Accord is at the top of the Honda food chain. It tops out there so it can't possibly entry-level lux - there is no upsell at the end of the Accord tenure.
BMW, Jag, MB will all atest to their desire to use their low end entry lux cars as a springboard.
And I was puzzling about my own issues with the term "near luxury" because to me, the definition of that term has to be NOT luxury by virture of the word "near" which means "close, but not there". It's entirely possible that I'm being way too literal here!
I think the cars you name are certainly some that this discussion could best serve. I understand your point, but "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is an image that is a little overly harsh regarding the very fine vehicles on your list.
Read the first post here - it actually lays out the parameters pretty nicely.
Other thoughts?
For example, I would argue that the Phaeton is certainly a luxury car, although VW is not considered a luxury brand.
It's really tough to say what is a "NEAR luxury perfomance sedan". My thinking is that cars like a loaded Maxima and Legacy should belong in this group.
And all of the issues, prices and comparisons among any of these cars should be discussed.
Too many hangups with luxury.
And I was puzzling about my own issues with the term "near luxury" because to me, the definition of that term has to be NOT luxury by virture of the word "near" which means "close, but not there". It's entirely possible that I'm being way too literal here!
We're in the same field I think. I tend to view near/entry lux as a vehicle that doesn't have the full boat of brand cache. A 3 series, while fun, still suffers in many eyes from the fact it's a compact sedan. You own a C or a 3 and it's usually not a big deal. An e Class or a 5 series that's a car of breeding - all perception but that's what we're talking about here.
I think the cars you name are certainly some that this discussion could best serve. I understand your point, but "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is an image that is a little overly harsh regarding the very fine vehicles on your list.
The average mom and pop car may even cost as much as the C, IS, ES, etc but those Hondas/Toyotas don't offer the visceral pop and the brand of the similarily priced, possibly higher performing counterparts.
Remember, the C and 3, like the ML and X, are there to get people into the brand. Lexus IS was released with one goal: lower the average age of Lexus buyers. They want to hook them into the brand at 20, so at 35 the LS is a reasonable jump.
jrock, you mentioned the Phaeton. The sales of the Phaeton (304 in the USA for January and February COMBINED) would lead one to conclude the general buying public doesn't accept the idea of a luxury VW. It's the company that makes the bug and still does to this day! A 17k bug parked next to a 50k+ Phaeton? Talk about a blunder by VW.
I give VW alot of credit for making this bold move. All it takes is a little re-education of the luxury buying public. Next thing you know, you take what used to be known as an economy brand in a totally new direction...performance/luxury. Only problem is, where does that leave Audi?
M
I thought, at first, entry-level lux might be the ticket to answering the question, but then there are still some problems with that. For instance, the Acura TSX is, technically, Acura's entry level sedan, not the TL. The Volvo S40 would be the entry, not the S60. And the 1-series bimmers would be in the same boat when and if they arrive. Yet we can't logically step up to the A6 and E-class just because we include the 2nd tier from the other brands. So where does that leave us?
We could limit it to certain manufacturers, but I fear this also presents a problem. I think Subaru, for instance, may compete very well with the new Legacy if they chose to load it up with goodies. Is it fair to exclude them just because they can't afford to start up a whole new rebadged brand to accomodate their vehicles with luxo ammenities?
Maybe its a more complex answer. Like, if the brand has an upscale counterpart, then the base brand is excluded. So Audi, but no VW; Acura, but no Honda; Infinity, but no Nissan; etc. However, if said brand has no upscale counterpart (i.e., Subaru, Saab, MB, BMW, Volvo, etc.), then it can be considered on its own merits. Of course, that still leaves us with the problem of someone complaining the STi should be included although it doesn't even offer a stereo. So we still need to figure what is required at a minimum to make it a car with luxo aspirations. Maybe available navigation and power leather seats? Can anyone think of something that falls outside those requirements that would be included or excluded here unfairly?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
whereas I agree with you regarding some of these brands that do have existing upscale brands but come out with a luxurious car under the lower brand, but I'm afraid opening the doors to lower brand names that have an upscale counterpart will then open comparisons of the loaded Accord to the TL or TSX and the loaded Maxima to the G35. where would that lead us?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you can afford a hand-built luxury car but don't need to go around with a three-pointed star or a leaping cat or a flying lady hood ornament to proclaim your arrival, then you may find that this new $64,600 VW more than meets your needs.
We use the word "more" because the Phaeton offers a luxury car with a 12-cylinder engine for about the price of a V8-powered Mercedes-Benz S-Class. Phaeton comes standard with features such as a navigation system for about what you'd pay for a basic short-wheelbase 7 Series BMW.
Volkswagen is moving upscale and the Phaeton is its new luxury sedan, the flagship of a fleet that in the North American market includes the Golf, New Beetle, Jetta, Eurovan, Passat, and the new Touareg sport-utility. In 2006 we should see a modern interpretation of the hippies' favorite, the VW Microbus, followed, perhaps, by a new, mid-engine, two-seat sports car. The expansion of the Volkswagen brand is part of an effort to widen the scope of the entire VW Group, an automotive empire that includes VW, Audi, SEAT, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. In 1999, the Volkswagen Group ranked sixth in worldwide sales, but subsequently has overtaken Renault/Nissan and DaimlerChrysler and trails only General Motors, Ford and Toyota.
The term phaeton dates back to days of horse-drawn carriages, and then was applied for special, coach-built touring cars with custom features. In the case of the Volkswagen Phaeton, most of those custom features are included as standard equipment." -- Larry Edsall, automotive.com
It seems to me like the term may be a bit more problematic now. Yes, the ES330 is still built on the Camry platform and the I35 is still based on the Maxima. However, they look a lot different than the base cars now, and have quite a few more luxury features than before.
In addition, the lower-end luxury models are now featuring extremely nice interiors, many luxury features, etc. Even though my '04 TL is considered near-luxury, the interior still feels every bit as nice to me as my old '93 BMW 525i did, if not more so. Now, I'm not going to throw a grenade in the tent by trying to compare the handling of the two cars
Maybe entry-level luxury is a better term for these cars now...
Jeff
This isn't like Toyota creating Lexus and the groundbreaking 35k LS400. Toyota had a great reputation - something VW doesn't have. Toyota created a luxury brand from scratch and populated it with a vehicle that mirrored the big boy on the block - MB but for less money. VW's Phaeton mirrors...the Passat. Oh, there's a marketing coup!
Lets nail down the logic. We've got a company well known for mechanical and electrical problems offering a high priced luxo-cruiser under the same banner as 16k economy cars and the new car most closely resembles a 23-40k mid-size sedan. That's just brilliant.
Gosh, I sure hope Ford comes out with a plus-sized version of the Taurus and sells it for 50k. That'd be keen.
Branding. That's what it's all about in the luxury arena. Ask MB about the Maybach.
But there is good in that VW tech.s will have even greater job security now that the Phaeton's out.
The Phaeton is a pretty nice looking car (IMHO) and in some ways it might be nice to have a car that doesn't scream "I have lots of money".
As far as quality goes, the BMW 7-Series and Mercedes S-Class have been having some quality problems of their own lately.
Jeff
How about if we just say $32k to $42k as a minimum requirement for eligibility in this discussion? That would at least keep us within some workable range.
I want to change "Near" to Entry-Level" in the title. How about if I also drop performance? I think that should make unnecessary some of the carryings-on about what belongs here and what doesn't.
Let me hear what you have to say and I'll make up my mind tomorrow.
I read the G35x Follow-Up Test on Edmunds, and I pretty much agree with what the writer said. The design of the interior is fine (except I'm not a big fan of the orange lights) and I actually feel that the quality of the leather seats is better than the seats in the TL or the 3 series. Hopefully, they'll really lick the dash material quality issues in the 2005 model.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
For example, Riez stated that he thinks the IS300 is higher on the food chain than the 325i, probably because it has a larger, more powerful engine (and he owns a couple of them).
I however, consider the 325i higher on the food chain than the IS300 because it's just as quick, but more refined and mature, in my opinion.
Price doesn't work either because of my admittedly biased opinion that the TSX belongs in the same league as the 325i and IS300 because it offers similar performance and luxury, but only costs $26,000.
And then there's the Mazda 6s and V-6 Accord, which offer performance and luxury on par with many of the cars here, yet they simply lack breeding (brand identification).
For a car to be a true "near-luxury" performance sedan, I believe it must possess some combination of all of these traits, in varying degrees.
Maybe a formula could be devised assigning points for luxury brand name, overall performance, quality interior/cockpit, exterior elegance, overall driving refinement.
I don't feel the Mazda competes here just on merit of being slow in a straight line. It is also lacking quite a bit in the luxury department on merit of lacking sound deadening and something I feel should be available on a car that wants to be considered "luxury": navigation. So, to me, the Mazda belongs here no more than the STi does.
I think the Accord is too closely tied to the TL. If the Accord is permitted, then you open the doors to the Maxima and Camry. And then you might as well include the Kia Amanti, Hyundai XG350, Chrysler 300, etc, etc.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. = YES
Chevy, Ford, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, etc. = NO
Just because an Accord may have all the bases covered does not mean it should be considered for this topic.
Gee, it's amazing how some things can take on a life of their own sometimes. :-)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Discuss amongst yourselves.... ;P
;b back at ya
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Luxury - Real Wood/Aluminum/Carbon Fiber/Titanium Trim, Wool Carpet/Headliners, Suede/Leather Seats-Panels, V8 Min. 275+HP, Heated/Cooled/Power Memory Seats + Mirrors, Min.Dual Climate Zone, NAV/Voice Activated Interaction/Commands(Onstar Telematics etc), Front/Side/Rear Saftey Bags, 200 Watt 6+ Speaker Stereo, All drivetrains, Traction Control, More than 5 years with sedans over 50K
Audi
BMW
Cadillac
Jaguar
Lexus
Mercedes Benz
Premium Aka Near Luxury - Aluminum/Carbon Fiber/Wood Trim, Soft Touch Foam Dash and Grained surfaces, Wool Blend Carpet/Headliners, Suede/Leather Seats & Panels, Turbo 4 or 6 Cyl - Min 220 HP+, 200 + Watt 6+ Speaker Stereo, Heated/Cooled/Powered Seats, NAV/Voice Activated Interaction/Commands(Onstar, Telematics etc), Front/Side/Rear Saftey Bags, Traction Control, All Drivetrains, 29K-40K Base MSRP or 32-50K common optioned out MSRP price
Infiniti
Lincoln
Saab
Subaru
Volkswagen
Volvo
This is how I would rank in terms of cachet/prestige/name recognition:
1) MB, BMW, Jaguar, Lexus
2) Audi, Cadillac
3) Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo
4) Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, etc.