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Your fantasy is nice and I'm sure you enjoy occasionally inducing the back end of your G to "get a little loose" and rotate towards some imagined apex (who doesn't?), but that's hardly a defining RWD "sport sedan" moment. I can (and do) enjoy the same effect in my FWD Honda."
ummm i do this 2x a week at least on exit and entrance ramps i can see 360 degrees around. I keep the car loose for about 7-8 seconds all the way around balancing the oversteer and understeer to find the edge of traction - this helps me undertand the limits of the car and how the car reacts to all kinds of inputs. A little spin out (which really wont happen with VDC on) is gonna cause me no problems other than some grass in my springs.
Yu dont have to induce oversteer to get what bluguy describes..the shove. It is something that DOES define the sports sedan's I want to drive - in fact it defines it in such a way that I will never pay more than 20k for a FWD car - more like 18 really.
As far as oversteer you realize that even without pushing the traction limit your car will slide if RWD in a turn..not much but when the front wheels are turning one way and the other wheels are driving a differnt angle - somthing gives and i assure you it's the rear wheels as they align themselves to the direction of travel to the front...there's just something about the balance you feel as the weight transfers and you propel (shove) down the straight road puit of a turn. No accord can do this man - i'm not sure you really know what this is about.
A picture is worth a thousand words. The green flag drops..the BS stops.
I wonder what went wrong with those 17 'superior RWD' cars.
2.4l TSX engine vs 2.5l 325i engine and still managed to outrun 14 of them, wow!
So much for a RWD theory. Who overlapped who?
BTW, I woulda bought a TSX over a 325i. Better car and better value in my eyes.
No theory yet. But I drove Integra GSR and I know which one is better. gtg
What is up with the discussion tied to racing and tracks? Cars used for racing normally heavily modified, esp. in areas related to handling. Major tire and suspension mods. Everything from shocks, anti-sway bars, cross bracing, bushings, etc. Not to mention that race tracks aren't like regular roads.
Big plus for Acura is that they build two different near luxury cars TSX and TL, instead of settle for one platform like BMW and MB did. I know Acura officials said that TL was build as a competition for 5- series, but we all know that size and price wise it should and is being compared with 3-series. New RL on the other hand should be grate competition for 5 and E.
You can probably steer your car and shift gears at the same time, according to your logic it should be to much to handle. We all should be drivin AT than:)
To really make a FWD race car work you have to have some lift throttle oversteer. We used to trail brake and run more air pressure in the rear tires to get more oversteer. Once you get back on the gas the car pushes hard. So you take an earlier apex than a RWD car, induce some oversteer via lift throttle and/or trail braking, then stand on the gas and let the car understeer out from the apex of the corner. With some practice and the right balance it can be a lot of fun if you don't overheat the front tires or brakes during the race.
"Hot X-Type R seen testing
The long awaited X-Type R model, due late 2004 or early 2005ish, has been seen cruising the West Midlands of England during final testing. The four-wheel drive R will have the latest version of Jaguar's V6 engine, using some form of forced induction to give it 330 bhp and 330 lb. ft of torque. There has been some whispers that the engine might not follow the usual supercharged R formula, for it could well be turbocharged instead, due to a lack of space under the compact saloons bonnet. The 3.0-litre engine could also be expanded to 3.2 litres and 250bhp, an upgrade likely to debut in the whole X-Type range.
0-60 acceleration is said to be around the five-second mark, and top speed nudging 165 mph. Jaguar's new six-speed manual or six-speed automatic transmission will be standard, though no news on a Tiptronic/SMG style box - Jaguar preferring the J-Gate. The R will stand out with it's enlarged bumpers, huge exhaust pipes, mesh front grille, de-chromed exterior and 19-inch alloy wheels, but no silly body kit or boot spoilers. Unlike the other R's, it will not have any additional air intakes on its bonnet. Internally the car will remain the same as the other models, save for material/wood differences, until the whole car gets a face lift in 2006."
The SCCA rules are not used in the Speed Challenge, but Speed Challege has it's own rules to make the racing tight and exciting by equalizing the various cars. Thus, the 325i and TSX begin with similar power:weight and the same tires (brand, size, and compound).
The cars in this series are indeed heavily modified for racing, but the fact remains that FWD is FWD and RWD is RWD...and they both perform. Is FWD was truly inferior in some way, then Realtime Racing could have entered a BMW instead of the Acura. They chose the TSX because of it's an outstanding platform to build a race car on.
If your tires are gripping, then you aren't sliding. And if you're a good driver, your car is always "set" so that each tire is getting maximum contact with the road.
I get much more satisfaction from nailing the apex perfectly and tracking out with the car in perfect balance. What you're describing is no more exciting than doing burnouts at streetlights.
Manufacturers try to overcome the laws of physics related to this problem by many things. Two most basic are (1) LSD (critical for powerful FWDers) and equal length half-shafts. If one wheel transmits more power to the ground than the other, it will pull the FWD car to one side because the drive wheels are also the steering wheels.
There are lots of reasons one brand wins over the other at the racetrack. Better Driver, better car, better set up, and that last and most important...more money ! I am always concerned to read about the road racers out there on the highway drifting through off ramps and on ramps. There is only one place to test the limits of your vehicle and also find out exactly who you are at the wheel...the track.
It is the only place you can go with your car where no one tells you how fast you can go.
I respect the opionions of those posting here who have obviously have had experience driving where things are only limited by your own limits.
Lots of interesting back and forth in this board.
I respect the opionions of those posting here who have obviously have had experience driving where things are only limited by your own limits.
An unpopular view: that's any road. Don't bother with flames about selfishness, legality or responsibility.
It used to be a fact that a FWD couldnt handle higher hp but not with todays technology at least to some extent. Why TSX defied the law of physics? Science and new technology are the keys. The world was considered flat too in the old days.
Fedlawman, the reason people keep saying about this RWD theory bcuz they havent owned and driven the car to its limit. Dont just drive a FWD, drive an Acura not Maxima. Why not just drive a KIA Rio for a comparison.
Blueguy, about massive torque steer, is that a fact or just a myth? you seem to me like an expert on the new TL. Do you own one?
BTW, the TSX I drove did exhibit torque steer. I dug the car regardless. As I've said many times, had I not bought my 330i, the TSX was the next choice. If the TL had been available when I bought I very well might have an Acura in the garage right now. Unless BMW decides to release an M version of the 1 series it's looking more and more likely in 2006 I'll defect to another maker. Quite possibly Acura.
I get much more satisfaction from nailing the apex perfectly and tracking out with the car in perfect balance. What you're describing is no more exciting than doing burnouts at streetlights"
This is making me weary - don't take it from me - take it from thousands of publications and books such as solo racing instuctional manuals or guides that the PERFECT turn in a RWD car involves slight and intended rear wheel slide (just a touch now - its not a burnout smokeout like some who have never driven a RWD hard suggest).
The point at which your front wheels have pushed the car to another angle while the rear wheels are driven with throttle input to the former angle there will and is a correction at higher speed. That induced oversteer which is limited to exactly the right amount becasue the weight transfers to the rear (where the driven wheels are) and traction is regained (this takes timing).
Anyone who drives a FWD and preaches that this beautiful method of driving is like teen fun in a parking lot should get a refund and drive a bike. I have suggested that on the track a FWD can have it's place and setups and drivers can compensate for anything with non-street suspsensions. Who gives a crud about the track this is about what my family sedan can do in a turn that some never may understand. I could care less whose faster I dont even race or go to the track. I want tourque and throttle induced oversteer corrections in the most perfectly balanced car maybe ever made.
HERE IS THE CRUX OF YOUR ARGUMENT: TRACTION LOSS IS BAD.
wrong - heres why
RWDers understand that this correction is intended because the momentum loss in the turn is WAY LESS if the rear wheels simply slide a bit as opposed to entering the turn at a lower speed and not having any traction lost. When this slide is complete the car actually gets the traction started again from the throttle pushing the weight back in a perfectly balanced and timed and HEAVENLY turn without ANY momentum lost.
It's like a airforce guy telling a navy skipper how to drive a ship. This very argument contains the reasons why IMO its worth all the money i put into the G every month. If there were only FWD cars I would buy a duplex or something.
pg48477... Do your own test. Take a powerful front driver out for a spin. Make a couple of quick standing starts. Akin to 0-60 mph test. First, take your hands OFF the steering wheel. The accelerate hard. See where the car goes. Watch what is happening to the steering wheel. Next do it with your hands very lightly on the wheel. Finally with your hands very firmly on the wheel. The tugging of the steering wheel indicates torque steer by the wheels which do double duty in regards to both steering and powering at same time.
Most pronounced in cars with more power-delivery efficient manual transmissions. ATs "sap" some power to the wheels.
One of the best practical articles on this subject is C&D's comparison a few years ago of the RWD 330Ci to the FWD CL Type-S 6-speed manual. Their CL had the then new LSD which made a huge world of improvement.
Well designed powerful FWDer will use LSD and equal length half shafts to minimize torque steer.
Who was sponsoring the event for you guys to be on the track or was it an actual race ?
Regardless of the " I am the ultimate street racer and don't need to go to the track" dissertations I see here...I will look for them in the weeds or in the hospital. As you pointed out earlier..it is only a matter of time until something on the car breaks or there is a loss of traction or a million other reasons why things eventually end up badly for street racers in their perfectly balanced cars. Often it ends up badly for those they include in their mishaps.
Yah that's the ticket..turn what i said into something it IS NOT. I do not race and I do not street race. What don't you get here man? You clearly do not comprehend or understand the concepts being discussed. No-one loses traction in an apex for more than a few inches - if you do you hit trees and stuff. There are huge areas for some people to make mistakes and make bad judgements and for one to assume they know that all RWD cars have to be unsafe and will be at the edge of that grey area is absurd. OR a weak attempt to mask the fact that you never have experienced what keeps entire companies from going the way of honda (FWD) despite it's popularity stemming from cost manufacturing effeciency and cost reductions. FWD is cheaper and a fad of the post embargo - and a dying breed...
IF you dont have it you dont understand it apparently.
What I'm trying to tell you is that this effect is not exclusive to RWD platforms. Although a well balanced FWD car can be made to "oversteer" with lift-throttle, you can also "rotate" the rear end of a FWD car with a gentle application of power. To see (feel) this in action, run a FWD car through a slalom course. When you gently press the gas and feel the rear end "tuck in" and rotate around the cone, you'll know what I'm talking about.
It's different than a RWD'er, and not exactly the same as "riding the threshold" like your talking about, but it is no less entertaining or effective. I think that RWD loyalists tend to get caught in a "Rear-drive paradigm" sometimes because it's simply the way it's always been, and the way most of us learned to drive way back when.
Yes, I love driving the Miata to experience tha "classic" dynamics of a RWD sports car but, driving my FWD TSX is no less challenging or entertaining. If you've never explored the limits of a well tuned FWD sports car, then your missing out on something special. Then again, if your satisfied with what you've got and don't care to try something new, then that's fine too.
Believe me, I'm not trying to discredit your comments because I do think they are valid. I am simply trying to point out that FWD has no inherent performance limitations compared to RWD. It's just two ways to reach the same result...Vive la difference.
Yes, the name was changed from SIR to Pacific Raceways a couple of years ago. I love driving it because of the challenging turns coupled with elevation changes. It's a great training ground for improving driving skills.
I went out with the Puget Sound BMW CCA, who puts on track events several times each year. I know the Porsche club and Alfa Romeo club also sponsor events throughout the year between PR and Bremerton.
The clubs also trip down to Laguna Seca and Portland during the year, but I haven't gone.
Yes, I love driving the Miata to experience tha "classic" dynamics of a RWD sports car but, driving my FWD TSX is no less challenging or entertaining. If you've never explored the limits of a well tuned FWD sports car, then your missing out on something special. Then again, if your satisfied with what you've got and don't care to try something new, then that's fine too."
I've had 5 honda acura products that i put to death (most were well worn when i got em) over 10 years. I know all about oversteer in a front driver. I've spent more time in front than rear wheel in fact. I'm quite satisfied with what i have now as we all seem to be. It's not about challenging or entertaining it's about knowing both types of platforms and prefering one over the other. I would think an RSX is very tossable and way fun. But to drive it would mean giving up something that is way too important to most serious Sports sedan drivers regardless of our intentions to race or win something..its about physics and working with forces as opposed to against them as FWD put the steering and drivepower at odds.
After 10 years of CRX's and integras and passats that were quite fun to drive, I can't tell you how nice it is to finally (again) not have to drive into a corner concerned that my front wheels wont be able to turn if pushed. With VDC this may not be a problem but for me the whole issue is the inherint limitations that dont exist in RWD.
"What I'm trying to tell you is that this effect is not exclusive to RWD platforms"
What is exclusive is the momentum one can have going in and out and the line you use and the way in which one can be certain that a bit of gas before the exit is good for traction in RWD and BAD for FWD. The throttle app to GAIN traction right as you exit is the money and cant be enjoyed in front drives. Otherwise we'd all be in friont drives - they are cheaper to build.
You actually hit on something the G designers had in mind when they decided on the ultimate distribution. The g is a 52F 48R such that when you hit the throttle in the sweet spot of the apex (the entire thrust of this whole argument) the weight shift back to a perfect 50/50. When a FWD car pushed the gas all the weight goes away from the drive wheels. RSX can still be fun, but these finely tweaked and enjoyable RWD cars are built for getting around curves a particular way..the same way as ferrari, porsche, bmw, chrysler, dodge, ford, lambo. Some may be more than i can pay but the infiniti designers spent alot of money to make sure we can do this. Noone should buy a RWD if they dont want this. If they do they dont have to risk anything to enjoy it. I have 19k on my original brakes - maybe I need to spend more time enjoying the perfection.
You likely don't personally experience any torque steer due to the lack of power, esp. little torque. Would it even have 170 wheel HP? How much torque and HP does its small motor produce at 3K, 3.5K, and 4K RPMs? Even pretty brutal high RPM 0-60 mph launch can't get too much power to the front wheels. That is where it counts! You can't expect a small 4-cyl. engine that needs to rev high for best output to compare with the output of the much bigger engines in powerful FWDers like TL, Maxima, Seville, etc.
Wonder what the power to weight ratios are for your TSX and the Neon SRT-4. (Read reports that dyno shows the Dodge engine is being underrated by DC.)
I find 0-60 in 7.2 secs and the 1/4 mile in 15.6 secs (C&D July 2003) perfectly satisfying.
I guess I should ask you the same question, huh?
Heck, to get the best times out of my automatic S70 T5, you need to stand on the brake and wind it up to 3k-3500 and let go.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Best Regards,
Shipo
How could I be sad? I have RWD, 5-speed manual and LSD! I smile every time I drive!!!