Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

riez

fedlawman... You wrote, "the general consensus is that the TSX 6-speed is a low-to-mid seven second car and the automatic adds about 1/2 second to that. Seems about right to me."

Not sure what you mean by consensus? Is that what people want to believe? The three published data points I found have a 7.73 average. Two results are close (8.1 and 7.9) with the C&D 7.2 being the exception. C&D's number is adjusted for conditions so we don't know what the actual track result was. Doesn't appear R&T has tested a TSX, yet. Anyone got data from AutoWeek? Has CR tested one?

Seems like the published data would have TSX manual around 8.0. No idea about automatic, but think it possible it might add up to 1 second (ATs tend to sap smallish low torque I4s)--which would be in line with what AT did with Integra.

speedracer3

I don't the the A4 1.8T is slow at all. For a 4 banger it is extremely quick. Comparing it to or an I6 or a V6 is unfair.

shipo

"Comparing it to or an I6 or a V6 is unfair."

Why?

If you take a 1.8 liter four banger and apply only 7.45 PSI of boost, you will have an engine that should exactly equal the output of that same 1.8 mill with two more cylinders added. Sounds like a 2.7 liter I6 or V6 to me. Then again, if I'm not mistaken, Audi has the waste gate on the 1.8t set MUCH higher than 7.45 PSI, that should put it into the 3+ liter range as far as output is concerned.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

I don't the the A4 1.8T is slow at all.

That's why they make different cars for all of us. I owned a 1.8T it was a fun, punchy little engine.

For a 4 banger it is extremely quick.

Stop right there. I don't rate things on a scale of "for a....[insert modifier] it was good." Either it's good or not. In the realm of engines either it produces enough power to satisfy me or it doesn't. On a scale of 1-10 I'd put the 1.8T at about a 6. Still a failing grade. don't worry, my ZHP's engine would only rate about a 7.5 or so. An 8 would be too generous.

Comparing it to or an I6 or a V6 is unfair.

No it's not. I'm comparing it against all engines. BTW, it competes in a class with 6's. And if it's any consulation after driving a 325i I knew I couldn't buy it partly because I felt power wise that would be a lateral move from my 1.8T. Why spend 30k to get the same power output (with less useable torque too) that I had on my 21k car?!

speedracer3

I was talking about a stock 1.8T. A chipped 1.8T is another story. For $400 an APR Stage I chip gives the A4 around 200hp, but the car can easily be tuned to ~250hp.

speedracer3

Let's put it this way. the 1.8T is faster than most I4's and it feels like a V6. So yes, I do quantify my remark, for a small I4 it has tremendous punch. I think the HP figures on the 1.8T are underrated. I have a Mazda Millenia with a 2.5L V6 and my A4 leaves the Mazda in it's dust. Not only that but as I mentioned above, spend a few hundred dollars on a chip and even V6's can be had for lunch.

shipo

I was talking about a bone stock 1.8t. That thing should be running something like 8-11 PSI of boost which should give it at least the same output as any decent 2.5 liter normally aspirated engine currently on the market. To take it to 200HP, my ballpark guess that it would need maybe 14-17 PSI and to take it to 250HP would require boost of somewhere north of 20 PSI.

Like it or not, it is absolutely fair to compare a blown 1.8 to a larger normally aspirated engine ranging from 2.5 to 3.0 liters.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

I wrote a review of my Jetta every month and I consistently praised the 1.8T. That said, it didn't offer the punch I wanted from my fun car. But yes, it's a fun darn engine. Like I said, I'd choose it over a BMW inline 2.5 any day and twice on sunday.

Of course, I'd rather the 2.4 of the TSX over either of them.

Until you chip...wow 240 lb-ft of torque! Yummy.

pjj14

After test driving almost all of the cars in the sport sedan/near luxury class on several different occasions, I have finally narrowed my choices to the Lexus IS 300 and the Acura TSX. As such, I would appreciate any feedback or information board members may have regarding their experiences with either of these cars.

Though Washington D.C. winters are not normally that bad, I am most concerned about the Lexus's RWD. Thus, any experiences with the IS 300 in the ice and/or snow would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

speedracer3

Shipo,

So do you agree with Blue's statement that the 1.8T has no guts?

Blue,

I was not wowed by the TSX's 2.4L I4. No doubt it is quick on launch, but take it on the highway (as I did) and the engine feels strained. The A4 1.8T won't win drag races, but take that baby on the highway and it is right at home. Don't get me wrong, I liked the TSX very much, but to me it looked and felt too much like another Accord.

blueguydotcom

The A4 1.8T won't win drag races, but take that baby on the highway and it is right at home.

That's funny as we're so different. On the freeway I loathed the 1.8T as I found it loud and in the case of the Jetta, poorly geared. With an A4 I also found the 1.8T to be too noisy. It's like a hornet's nest on the freeway.

The TSX on the other hand had a nice long 6th that I could slip into and let the car glide along. Then again, I prefer that i must go from 6th to 4th or 3rd when I'm on the freeway and I want power in my ZHP. In 6th, I'm cruising and therefore I want it as quiet and loafing as possible. The taller the gear the better. 2500 rpm at 85 sounds perfect.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the TSX very much, but to me it looked and felt too much like another Accord.

I'm not a honda fan, so I didn't see or feel anything accordish in my times with the TSX.

shipo

Do I think that it has no guts (talking about the 170 HP version)? Hmmm, I guess that depends on what it's mounted in. Mounted in a light weight car, say 2,600 pounds, I think it would be great, however, if it is mounted in a 3,400 pound sedan, then no, I don't think it is up to the task.

Best Regards,
Shipo

riez

Keep in mind the TSX uses a dragstrip-like 4.73:1 final drive. That gives it the initial launch. It also then has overdrive 5th and 6th gears to offset this final drive. The 6th overdrive is very deep at 0.66:1.

The IS300 uses 3.73:1 final and 0.85: 5th.

BMW has been using direct drive 5th (1.00:1) in past E46 323i/325i with various final drives under 3.50:1. The new 6-speeds bring overdrive. [My '98 540i6 had a .82 overdrive 6th with a 2.82:1 final drive.]

speedracer3

I think the 1.8T offers very spirited driving for frontrack models. The combination of frontrack and 6 speed or CVT work well also. I think the added weight of Quattro and the Tiptronic is a perfomace killer for the 1.8T. If I wanted Quattro I would have chosen the A4 3.0

blueguydotcom

Yeah the tip and quattro suck the life out of the poor 1.8T. I meet people in San Diego with that combo and I wonder why they'd need the Quattro HERE.

merc1

I take it you guys are talking about manual transmissions in the A4 1.8t and TSX, because with an automatic they are slooower than I don't know what. I couldn't believe how slow the A4 1.8t was on a recent test drive. With the air running a foot to the floor wouldn't induce a kickdown. I thought the car was malfunctioning. If I get an A4 it will have to be the 3.0 model.

M

ryanl1

Thanks to everyone (almost) on this site I've learned more about their favourite cars and what they dislike about other cars.I haven't decided what car to buy but have narrowed it to a list that I would be more than happy to own.

Keeping in mind that everyone's priorities are different when choosing a car it would be interesting to know from all the regulars what would have been their second choice and why from my list below:

Acura TL (Danny1878 great car but do I really need navi,dvd,bluetooth?)
Acura TSX (Fedlawman a better value than TL but does it have enough power?)
Infinity G35 (Chrisboth beautful car but interior upgrade for 05 coming)
Lexus IS300 (Riez reliability king with flair but needs refreshing)
Suburaru Legacy GT 2005 (saw it at the autoshow...a new contender?)
Volvo S60 (can't get this Ford thing outta my head)
Honda Accord,Mazda 6s,Nissan Altima (last resort safe family choices without putting one to sleep)

I haven't chosen any German cars because reliability is a major issue.Please don't be offended KD,blueguy,speedracer as I love all your cars but can't afford to get a new car every 2 to 4 years.

speedracer3

Which A4 1.8T combo did you drive?.

qbrozen

My second choice, right now, would be a tossup between the '05 Legacy GT and '05 S40 T5 6-speed (just as big on the inside as the S60 but handles far better). BUT, have not driven or sat in either one yet, so this is all based on numbers, reviews, and pics. So its pretty much a worthless opinion at this point.

blueguydotcom

The TL can be purchased without the navi. Now you're talking 32k or so. Great deal.

I love power and I think the 6 speed tsx w/o navi is a screaming deal. Keep the engine over 4k and it pulls strongly.

jmess

You might wait for and 06 Legacy GT. Nobody gets it all right the first model year. Some things are left off by design to drive demand for the next model year.

fedlawman

riez - by consensus, I mean that I have read many, many reviews of the TSX performed by many many sources, and the range for 0-60 has been between 6-8 and 7.9 secs. This, combined with my own "seat of the pants" indicates a low-to-mid seven rating.

ryanl1 - Personally, I would choose the TSX over the TL because I value handling and overall balance more than straight-line acceleration. My 2nd choice would probably be G35. I love the 325i, but I don't think the value is good unless you factory order and keep the options slim.

riez

Gotta have RWD, IRS, and manual transmission. Want LSD and HID. Prefer I6 over V6.

Of course, I'm most partial to IS300 manual. But my 2nd and 3rd choices would be:

- 325i manual with Sport Pkg and HID.
- G35 manual with Sport Pkg.

But don't think I could ever buy the G35 sedan. The coupe is just too beautiful. Hope the coupe is still around when I go shopping again in about 5 years. Then my kids will be gone and I can get the coupe, convertible, or roadster I've longed for!

chrisboth

In five years you may want the ford shelby cobra if a roadster is still on the list. If not the HP wars will have the base coupes from Lex, Infiniti and BMW at 400hp. I Imagine the G35 coupe will look like the GTR concepts out now but who knows... Thier success is breeding many new ideas, Im sure.

I find your comments about the G sedan strange -while the coupe looks like a supercar you were looking for a sedan right? I liked the fact that the coupe and sedan are so different but look similar enough. I guess people love or hate the sedan and mostly love the coupe. If I wasn't looking at coupes I would look at all sedans independently of the coupe sister. The fact that they are different should be good - the 3 coupe and sedan are virtual twins. I think the 4 series is the answer to that however.

kdshapiro

There honestly isn't a poor choice in the bunch. The only criteria is what one deems as the overriding features/characteristics that make one more desireable than another to the purchaser.

The new rumored G refreshing as well as the rumored slew of new product from BMW will make the next few years quite interesting.

While my car operates like a "top", I am not married to BMW. Having driven the "epitome" of the sports sedan I understand why the press and enthusiast people likes these cars. But I like diversion in my car ownership experience. Can you say "batter up" for the G35. Of course, I don't know what I will do at this point in year and a half from now.

kahunah

"Personally, I would choose the TSX over the TL because I value handling and overall balance more than straight-line acceleration."

fedlawman - You're not seriously suggesting that the TSX is more balanced and can outhandle the TL are you? Because if that's what you're suggesting, you need to come clean with an explaination...and it better be good!

danny1878

LSD = bad handling/balance.

GM does sell more. Trucks, van, SUV, Buick, Cadillac, chevrolet, GMC, Hummer, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, saab etc. against 1 car TL.

hmmm what else can I learn today. :-o

merc1

Well you know I was hopelessly drawn to a Black Ultra Sport Package A4 1.8t automatic that the dealer had on the lot. I was there looking at a 2003 A4 3.0 Dark Blue/Beige w/the works, but the look of those new A4s with the USP were just stunning so I let the guy talk me into driving one.

In short I loved everything about the car except the engine/pickup. I don't think there is a better looking car inside or out in this class than the A4 w/USP. However with the 1.8t engine and a automatic its all show and not much go. The V6 is needed if you get an A4 with the automatic, imo.

M

ryanl1

Thanks for everyone's responses.Lurking on this site is like asking your doctor/pharmacist what kind of side effects one may get.

gbrozen.I can't remember what your first choice was? At the auto show I observed a salesman showing a 60+ year old couple smitten with the S40.I waited till they left and then asked him what makes the S40 that much better than the Mazda 3....he didn't know.There was a barrier around the car but he let me sit in it.The vertically arranged buttons on the center console is strange looking.If you convince yourself enough that the console is trying to make a statement then you'll be ok.
The interior of the S40 is smaller than the S60.The back seat is cramped for an adult.It may not fit all baby car seats.It's a beautiful car but basically too small for my needs.

The Legacy GT 2005 was stunning...as beautiful as G35,TL.It was on an elevated platform but I could see the interior was just as cool.The rep said they would be coming out in May and msrp around 30k usd but tba.

qbrozen

my first is the TL.

What makes the S40 better than the Mazda3? How about more power, better fit and finish, more sound deadening material, better seats, better stereo, higher quality interior materials, more safety features, etc, etc. Wow. You found a really bad salesman there.

95gt

Actually that is what i have heard in most car forums/magazines etc. The TSX is better balanced, probably having a lot to do with its smaller engine up front, smaller body overall. Hey it made C&D top ten cars.

I for one would miss the power too much to go with a tsx but it looks like a very tossable car.

fedlawman

By no means am I dissing the TL, it's a great car. For me, though, the TSX is just more fun to drive. Like 95gt said, it's more tossable - playful.

Sorry, I just like it better.

kahunah

Yeah, I know where you're coming from (I once had an Accord 4-banger, 5-speed). TSX is a fine car. I was just being playful myself. :-)

speedracer3

Sorry, maybe I didn't ask properly. Did you drive the frontrack CVT or the Quattro Tip?.

cheerioboy26

Received the May MT today. Here's their results and some of their comments:

4. Saab 9-3 Aero
3. Acura TL
2. Cadillac CTS
1. Infiniti G35

Saab
-hot- coupelike design, solid body structure, trim size
-not- turbo lag, nonlinear steering, overintrusive stab. ctrl
-bottom line- GM corporarte pltform with Saab overtones

TL
-hot- 270hp std, XM std, Italianite sheetmetal, artful cabin design
-not- light, darty steering; tourque steer, long stopping distances
-bottom line- a super value, but front drive compromises dynamic performance

CTS
-hot- crisp steering, comfortable euro sedan ride quality, bank vault like structural ingegrity
-not- tall narrow body proportions, jarring shapes and textrues on dash, no manumatic for AT
-bottom line- topnotch blend of superbdynamic and luxurious ride quality

G35
-hot- son of z-car v-6 powertrain, son of z-car chassis balance and response, value for dollar
-not- some interior plastic trim below par, brakes a bit grabby, rear end design somewhat blocky
-bottom line- in its price bracket, g35 is a benchmark among near lux sport sedans

0-60:
G35 6.2
TL 6.3
CTS 6.6
9-3 6.9

1/4
G35 14.68/94.02
TL 14.78/94.40
CTS 14.99/91.95
9-3 15.09/90.55

60-0 braking
G35 111
9-3 121
CTS 124
TL 128

All cars were AT. G35 was sport model w/Bose

Saab seemed to be outclassed, TL was referred to as "ultimate Accord" and Accord roots referred to in discussion of limits. TL got mentions for all of its tech stuff. MT liked the new CTS 3.6 V6, and comments on the G praised the handling and engine and dinged the audio controls and the center metallic trim, but said it was better in the 04.

shipo

Loose the Caddy, they are only paying lip service to the manual folks (ie. it's an unorderable option).

Loose the TL, a manual gear box will only make the FWD steering worse, ditto the Saab.

Hmmm, that leaves the G35. Nah, can't live with the styling.

One year to go on the lease on my 530i (E39 vintage). Maybe I'll have to completely change my sights on what type of car to drive next. Hmmm, how about the Hemi version of the new Dodge Magnum? ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

merc1

Oops...it was a Quattro Tiptronic.

M

merc1

As usual everyone in the country gets their issue before me! Anyway as much as I like the TL I don't know how MT could come up with "Italianite sheetmetal", but their dynamic assesment seems to be pretty good. Between that so-called "character line" and those side sills that don't line up with the body on most of the cars I've seen, the styling is almost a contrived mess, imo.

Just by reading the previous post it seems they're getting a little better at comparos..more sophisticated. Hmmmm......

M

speedracer3

Now I understand why you thought the A4 was a snail. If you want performance out of the A4 and Quattro you either need to chip the 1.8T or get the 3.0. Next time try a Frontrack CVT. You'll notice a considerable difference in performance.

kahunah

Well there's no accounting for taste. I suppose you think the Mitsubishi Eclipse is design perfection...I don't think so.

BTW, nothing wrong with my side sills.

danny1878

Sales for March 2004

TL 7310 units
TSX 2206 units

G35 sedan 4247 units
G35 coupe 2781 units

ES330 6876 units
IS300 1007 units

MB all C class 4825 units

All CTS =6057 unis

BMW 330i=673
BMW 325i=3254

pg48477

Acura is talking about introducing a revolutionary AWD system, which not only distributes torque front to rear but also left to right. I think it might be available on 05TL.

>>>
Honda Develops World’s First Super Handling All-Wheel-Drive Available this fall in the Acura RL (North America) and the Legend (Japan)

TOKYO - April 1, 2004 --- Honda Motor Co., Ltd. today announced the development of a new Super Handling All-Wheel-Drive system, called SH-AWD, that provides cornering performance that responds faithfully to driver input, and outstanding vehicle stability. A world’s first, the SH-AWD system combines front-rear torque distribution control with independently regulated torque distribution to the left and right rear wheels to freely distribute the optimum amount of torque to all four wheels in accordance with driving conditions. The new system will be available this fall in the Acura RL (North America) and the Legend (Japan).

By monitoring driver input and driving conditions, the SH-AWD system determines the optimum front-rear and lateral (left-right) torque distribution. This information is then conveyed to the rear differential, where direct electromagnetic clutches continuously regulate and vary front-rear torque distribution between ratios of 30:70 and 70:30, and lateral torque distribution in the rear wheels between ratios of 100:0 and 0:100. Torque is used not only for propulsion, but for cornering as well, resulting in a significant enhancement in vehicle maneuverability.

The SH-AWD system is composed of sensors to detect steering angle, lateral g, and other vehicle information; an ECU; and the rear differential. The direct electromagnetic clutches inside the rear differential, another world’s first, employ electromagnets to obtain precise control over the multi-plate clutches. Built-in search coils monitor the gaps between the electromagnets and the magnetic body to achieve precise, continuously variable torque regulation.

The rear differential is also equipped with a built-in acceleration device, yet another world’s first. During cornering, the track of the outside rear wheel normally falls outside the average of the tracks of the front wheels. The outside rear wheel does not rotate fast enough to keep up with the front wheels, preventing efficient transmission of torque. To counteract this problem, the SH-AWD acceleration device alters the gearing to speed up the outside rear wheel’s rotation relative to the front wheels. This reduces torque transmission losses and significantly improves vehicle maneuverability.

At Honda, driving pleasure is regarded as one of the most important factors in vehicle development. The new SH-AWD system features “feed-forward” control, which utilizes the degree of driver input to determine appropriate torque distribution. This results in a super-neutral steering feel that responds with optimal faithfulness to the driver’s handling of the steering wheel, realizing outstanding driving comfort and stability.

From official Honda Japan site...
http://www.honda.co.jp/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

merc1

You're right there is no accounting for taste obviously, but it was nothing personal sorry you took it that way. Yes back in 1997 my car (imo) was the best looking sports coupe/convertible in its class. Don't get me wrong I like Acuras, but design wise they induce yawning, imo.

M

blueguydotcom

I'm not keen on the torque-dividing junk as I've yet to drive an AWD system that doesn't interfere with fun, but I like the idea of the AWD TL.

kahunah

BMW, Audi, Infiniti...game over! With sales of the TL already exceeding 7,000 units a month, what car in this class could possibly compete with say an SH-AWD 6-speed TL packing 300+ hp? Yeah, I know...won't come with a 6-speed...

mariner7

Honda, game over! Your sales are going downward in 2004, while rivals Toyota and Nissan are going up. Nissan at an incredible pace!

kahunah

Show me the numbers! Besides, I talking about cars in this class.

mariner7

Look them up yourselves.

In March, Toyota up 5%, Honda down 4%(?), Nissan up 30%. Honda was slightly down in Jan, slightly up in Feb. Whole YTD it's down. Nissan up 28 & 46 in Jan/Feb.

Who's afraid of TL? Not G, which is up more than 20% for 2004. And it's 2 year old, going up against brand new TL.

riez

Not sure what relevancy sales data has toward which car is to be preferred or which car is best for you (as there is none), but you have to take into account factors that influence sales, including advertising, incentives, lease deals, etc. as well as newness.

The TL is a brand new car in its first model year. Car like the E46 3 Series came out in 1998 as a MY1999. You have to wait for the "newness" to wear off and new competitors come out to see what happens to sales over the life cycle of the product. Many cars have had great introductory and initial year sales to fall in later years, sometimes precipitously.

speedracer3

Don't write them off yet. Infiniti, BMW and Audi are not standing still. For one Infiniti will bring the GT-R shortly, which will make the Acura NSX look like overgrown bicycle.