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Acura TL 60-0 mph: 115 feet "Braking performance is top-notch, too, with 60-to-0 stops averaging a short, neat 115 feet. Our drivers were very impressed with our 6-speed's all-disc ABS brakes with Brembo front calipers. Results are comparable to some recent Porsches we've tested." -- MotorWeek
Take one article out of one magazine and that justifies the TL's brakes being more than adequate. I don't think so...
You can not use sales volume to justify the TL being a great car. I read in an earlier post about McDonalds being at the top of the fast food chain. They are... along with many of franchises. Why? Not because of product. It is all branding. Why has Madonna done so well for such a long time. Is she the best singer you ever heard, no of course not. It is all branding.
You need a good car not the best of the bunch to be a big hit and that is what the TL is. How well you market that automobile will take care of the rest.
The TL is NOT the second coming of Christ as some people hear lead us to believe.
Theres a reason to buy one. I think these are the types of comnments that inadvertantly give some people confindence in thier purchase where there should be none.
The G35 standard package brakes are seemingly the best on any sports sedan short of an M. Why: Almost every tester (not just one) raved about the stopping power and 1 even mentioned that just one italian supercar came to the same stopping distance as the G sedan.
When one says they are porsche worthy but the rest say so-so or not so great...that's why they all have to be taken with a grain..
None of the cars mentioned on this board are the "second coming". Many on this board just can't face the fact that TL offers the biggest and best bang for the buck in this category...end of story!
I guess it depends upon your perspective. For my tastes, FWD cars need not apply. In fact, AWD cars are only considered after being given a seriously "Hairy Eyeball". In my book, and remember I am a staunch BMW supporter; the best bang for the buck on the market these days is the G35.
Many on this board just can't face the fact that TL offers the biggest and best bang for the buck in this category...end of story!
But for many people, the best buy for the buck isn't the best option. Some want the best for the limit they set. I didn't care that BMW was over 40k, only that it satisfied 80% of my desire for a price I found acceptable. The TL, if it had been out, would have hit about 75-77%. The price difference wasn't enough to make me look to the TL. If the 330i had come in at 50k and I hadn't swung the deal I got, maybe the TL would win out.
Price wasn't the final determining factor though. Sorry. If I cared about bang for the buck in 03, I would gone for an STI and just obliterated pretty much all non supercars in my path.
Which is exactly why I chose the TL over BMW 3 and G35! The 3 fell short on interior room and value for the money, and I couldn't live with the poorly contrived G interior. The TL on the other hand far exceeded my requirements.
As for RWD performance, who but a few of you really care? I drive in the real world with pot holes, speed limits and traffic congestion not 'Racetrack Fantasy Land'. The so-called benefits of RWD were just not worth the compromises I would of had to make with the any of the other cars mentioned above.
From the days when I drove RWD cars there was a daily occurrence of something I really love not having to deal with anymore. Fishtailing on snow covered roads! :-o
"Don't care about CA? It's only the largest, wealthiest, hippest state in the Union! It's one state no company can afford to do badly in. "
I guess you not from CA than, to much anger in your posts:)
We can argue which car is better as much as we want, but the fact is that sales make the car a success or disaster. TL is doing much better for Acura than G35 for Infiniti and Accord is doing much better for Honda than Altima for Nissan. With that said I think RL will do better than M45.
not that it makes big difference but TL 6MT has weight distribution of 59/41, which is not that far from other RWD competition.
you add things like the premium package, nav system, leather, xenons, 17" wheels and the sport package which increases HP to 235, you get to about $45k
Um, the Performance Package increases horsepower to 235 and you get 18 inch rims with it.
My Perf ZHP with leather and xenons - no navi as that's the most useless thing since the fanny pack - had a sticker of 43k. I paid a few hundred below 40k for it.
What is the Perf ZHP? The name of the options package?
Anyways, I based the price on the MSRP and noticed that the Edmunds' own TMV prices weren't that far off the MSRP, only a few hundred.
Of course everyone is going to try to shave more than a few hundred off the MSRP.
Hmmm, the only time I've done that in the last 25 years it was on purpose. We live at the end of a cul-de-sac and had a very nice snow covering of six inches or so, so I switch off the DSC and nailed it. I had the kids in back and they had a ball watching all of the snow slinging out the back with the car driving sideways around the circle. I made four or five circuits before we got bored and went in for dinner. ;-)
Prior to that, I've only "Spun Out" unintentionally twice, once in a RWD 1970 Dodge Challenger with bald rear tires (Hmmm, I wonder why they were bald? :-)), in wet conditions no less, and the other was in my 1979 Scirocco on dry pavement. Oh my! Isn't the Scirocco a FWD car? Yup! Even so, I entered an on-ramp a little too hot and managed to accidentally perform a complete 540 before coming to a stop facing back up the ramp. Oops!
Like it or not, with modern traction control, it is virtually impossible to get the back end to hang out, even on purpose, unless you switch off the electronics.
I got my drivers license thirty years ago and I have extensive experience driving AWD, FWD and RWD cars in horrible conditions on roads all over the world, and FWIW, I feel much safer driving fast in slippery conditions in a car where the front wheels aren't at the mercy of engine power as to whether or not they have any grip.
Could we stick to the cars we are supposed to be talking about and stop pulling all these other vehicles into this discussion?
And could we also stop with the sniping at each other?
This discussion is getting too unwieldy - probably was to begin with - but as I mentioned just a little bit ago, those of you who would like to see it continue need to work harder on those two things.
Kahunah, are you saying that because I don't value a car in exactly the same way you do that I'm wrong? We all know that you think that the TL is the absolute high water mark of "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", however, I respectfully disagree.
To be sure, Honda had done a masterful job at taming the FWD demon, that said, if I'm going to lay out my hard earned money, the car had better be RWD or an extremely well engineered and balanced AWD system. The key point here is that I don't give a rat's tail what other folks think I should drive, I drive what suits me. Period.
Does anyone know the front/rear brake diameters on the TL. Is it 2 pot front and 1 pot rear?. It's disappointing for such a nice sports sedan to have such mediocre brakes.
Although I like the TL I think the Aero 9-3 with the PPC by BSR chip would be awesome. Lots of parts for the 9-3 already.
I would not put to much trust in the stats, you should judge from your own experience. I know for a fact that previous TL had a weak brakes , how I know, I owe one. When I bough it, non of the reviews had it as a concern. I also had a 93 Legend and brakes were grate. We can argue as much as we want, but to know for sure we need to put cars together on the track and see which does what.
Sales also depend on how a company prices its cars. In other words, company A might sell 10000 cars with a $800 profit per car, while company B might sell 5000 cars with a $2000 profit per car. Would you say that company A's car is more successful in this case?
Nissan North America has the highest profit margin of any major car company so far this year, even beating out perennial leader BMW, so I don't think they're really worried about how the G and the Altima are doing, which are doing fine BTW.
Actually, I bet that the next M outsells the next RL. Just a hunch.
We shell wait and see. I don't think current M and Q are that bad, but it's got to be a reason that Infiniti can't sell it. You also right about profit margin, it is highest in North America. You forgetting one thing though, Nissan also spend less then any other manufacturer on the vehicle, result is big profit margin. I guess it will do for 20K Altima or even 30K G35, but when you start using cheap materials for cars like M and Q, you got a problem. Even loaded Accord interior is better than any Infiniti. Unless Infiniti spend big bucks on the interior for new M, my money is on RL.
"I'm looking forward to the M45...hopefully Infiniti will get this one dead on. In a weird way i sorta dig the current one."
Haha, I kinda dig the current one too (in a weird way)! Maybe it's because I only see one once in a blue moon.
"You forgetting one thing though, Nissan also spend less then any other manufacturer on the vehicle, result is big profit margin."
Nissan spends its money on engine/drivetrain, Toyota spends its money on nice interiors, and Honda does a combo of both, although it doesn't lead in either.
"With the success of the new TL, my money is also on the RL."
Well, we'll have a better idea in a few days.
With the upcoming GS, M, RL, and A6, to go along with the 5 and the E, we're gonna need a second board lest we get booted by the moderator for talking about them. That segment is really going to heat up.
Will this second board simply be named "Luxury Performance Sedans"?
Actually, forgive me for being hasty or presumptuous, but I just added a discussion named "Luxury Performance Sedans" under the 5 series, RL, and M45 boards. I asked the moderator to add it to the E-class, A6 and GS boards as well.
Doubt that there will be many posts in there for the time being, since the new M, GS, RL, and A6 won't be out for a while.
Acura will either add the 100 hp elctric motor (rumored on Autoweek) or go bigger than the proposed 300 HP V6.
BTW, people talking smack about Infiniti interiors...have they been in the FX? It's a fine interior, But what do I know I love my bimmer interior...somethings are more important than soft leather seats.
If you are trying to get us all to say that the TL is the best car in this class you are dilusional. Please quit while you are ahead. We are happy that you love your car so much...thing is we all love our respective cars also.
I hear you blast the G35 interior but neglect to mention that the TL interior looks like a clone of the honda accord.
Even though I have a G35 coupe I can admit the interior needs some work. It is called being impartial. You should try it some time....wait a minute....I forgot, the TL is flawless ;-)
Let's write about the flaws of our own car that's part of the discussion. No fair unless you write 3-4 or more, and it cant be "I hate that it's so perfect and makes everyone envious."
I'll go ( 328i )
1) Leather not aging that well 2) 80mph=3500RPM ( not that loud, but gas? ) 3) Air cond not enough for five people in new mexico on hot day day. Takes time to cool car even in chicago. 4) Paint seems to chip/scratch easier than on my old saturn ( and, i mean, come on ) 5) Cupholder specifically designed to hold no cup in the universe.
My old '900
1) Rusty underbody areas even after 4 years in new mexico 2) 65/35 weight split--felt as if there was a cinder block in front of the axle. 3) Dealer-set timer would make the car return for expensive repair every 4-5 months. 4) One dealer in town, and they knew it. "Yes, we are changing you wife's brake fluid for the third time in six months." 5) Turbo lag annoying a sea level, terrifying at 8,000 feet.
I could make a longer list of things i loved, but i'll refrain. Those are my 2 favorite cars! It's fun, let's play.
Impartiality definitely isn't the long suit in this board. Most everyone feels they bought the car they wanted and the board is essentially a place where everyone is trying to convince everyone else they made a right choice and everyone else made a wrong choice. Outside the building I work in are parked a new 350Z, a new M5, lots of 3 series in every flavor, my TL, new 3.5 Maxima and others. All nice cars and some I know for sure I would be very happy with ( as in M5 or 350Z ). I wish we could see honest discussion here about some things that aren't what we thought they would be or need improving on the cars we bought. Most of the critic isms are aimed at cars we don't own. I'll go first..what the hell was Acura thinking when they designed the steering wheel location relative to the instrument panel ? You can't see the speedometer when the wheel is adjusted to where you want it. Maybe it is different for others depending on their driving position but neither my wife or I can see the speedometer with the wheel where we want it. That doesn't detract from my driving enjoyment enough to outweigh the things I do like however. I am going to drive three hours each way to play golf on Friday and one of the reasons is because I like driving my TL and I get the best of two worlds..a nice course and a nice drive. I am positive I would have an equally good time in G35 or a 330I or certainly in that M5. I bought a TL because it suited me in the areas I considered important...price, styling and also it was car my wife also enjoys driving. I am sure the others here did the same. I just object to having it jammed down my throat that I should have purchased a different car because ----- ( fill in the blanks ).
Ok my G has some issues with a rattle in the rear somewhere... and its a little fast sometimes. Other than that I wish it had audi interior and looked industrial still.
Comments
Acura TL
60-0 mph: 115 feet "Braking performance is top-notch, too, with 60-to-0 stops averaging a short, neat 115 feet. Our drivers were very impressed with our 6-speed's all-disc ABS brakes with Brembo front calipers. Results are comparable to some recent Porsches we've tested." -- MotorWeek
That's right...Porsches!
Best Regards,
Shipo
You can not use sales volume to justify the TL being a great car. I read in an earlier post about McDonalds being at the top of the fast food chain. They are... along with many of franchises. Why? Not because of product. It is all branding. Why has Madonna done so well for such a long time. Is she the best singer you ever heard, no of course not. It is all branding.
You need a good car not the best of the bunch to be a big hit and that is what the TL is. How well you market that automobile will take care of the rest.
The TL is NOT the second coming of Christ as some people hear lead us to believe.
The G35 standard package brakes are seemingly the best on any sports sedan short of an M. Why: Almost every tester (not just one) raved about the stopping power and 1 even mentioned that just one italian supercar came to the same stopping distance as the G sedan.
When one says they are porsche worthy but the rest say so-so or not so great...that's why they all have to be taken with a grain..
Best Regards,
Shipo
But for many people, the best buy for the buck isn't the best option. Some want the best for the limit they set. I didn't care that BMW was over 40k, only that it satisfied 80% of my desire for a price I found acceptable. The TL, if it had been out, would have hit about 75-77%. The price difference wasn't enough to make me look to the TL. If the 330i had come in at 50k and I hadn't swung the deal I got, maybe the TL would win out.
Price wasn't the final determining factor though. Sorry. If I cared about bang for the buck in 03, I would gone for an STI and just obliterated pretty much all non supercars in my path.
As for RWD performance, who but a few of you really care? I drive in the real world with pot holes, speed limits and traffic congestion not 'Racetrack Fantasy Land'. The so-called benefits of RWD were just not worth the compromises I would of had to make with the any of the other cars mentioned above.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I guess you not from CA than, to much anger in your posts:)
We can argue which car is better as much as we want, but the fact is that sales make the car a success or disaster. TL is doing much better for Acura than G35 for Infiniti and Accord is doing much better for Honda than Altima for Nissan. With that said I think RL will do better than M45.
not that it makes big difference but TL 6MT has weight distribution of 59/41, which is not that far from other RWD competition.
Um, the Performance Package increases horsepower to 235 and you get 18 inch rims with it.
My Perf ZHP with leather and xenons - no navi as that's the most useless thing since the fanny pack - had a sticker of 43k. I paid a few hundred below 40k for it.
What is the Perf ZHP? The name of the options package?
Anyways, I based the price on the MSRP and noticed that the Edmunds' own TMV prices weren't that far off the MSRP, only a few hundred.
Of course everyone is going to try to shave more than a few hundred off the MSRP.
Prior to that, I've only "Spun Out" unintentionally twice, once in a RWD 1970 Dodge Challenger with bald rear tires (Hmmm, I wonder why they were bald? :-)), in wet conditions no less, and the other was in my 1979 Scirocco on dry pavement. Oh my! Isn't the Scirocco a FWD car? Yup! Even so, I entered an on-ramp a little too hot and managed to accidentally perform a complete 540 before coming to a stop facing back up the ramp. Oops!
Like it or not, with modern traction control, it is virtually impossible to get the back end to hang out, even on purpose, unless you switch off the electronics.
I got my drivers license thirty years ago and I have extensive experience driving AWD, FWD and RWD cars in horrible conditions on roads all over the world, and FWIW, I feel much safer driving fast in slippery conditions in a car where the front wheels aren't at the mercy of engine power as to whether or not they have any grip.
Different strokes for different folks.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And could we also stop with the sniping at each other?
This discussion is getting too unwieldy - probably was to begin with - but as I mentioned just a little bit ago, those of you who would like to see it continue need to work harder on those two things.
Tastes...
Kahunah, are you saying that because I don't value a car in exactly the same way you do that I'm wrong? We all know that you think that the TL is the absolute high water mark of "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", however, I respectfully disagree.
To be sure, Honda had done a masterful job at taming the FWD demon, that said, if I'm going to lay out my hard earned money, the car had better be RWD or an extremely well engineered and balanced AWD system. The key point here is that I don't give a rat's tail what other folks think I should drive, I drive what suits me. Period.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Although I like the TL I think the Aero 9-3 with the PPC by BSR chip would be awesome. Lots of parts for the 9-3 already.
http://engstrom.net/
http://www.abbottracing.com/2003/index.htm
The Performance Package is called a ZHP among Bimmer fans.
Anyways, I based the price on the MSRP and noticed that the Edmunds' own TMV prices weren't that far off the MSRP, only a few hundred.
Edmunds little toy is useless as it allows you to mix and match things that can't exist together.
Of course everyone is going to try to shave more than a few hundred off the MSRP
I shaved close to 4k off mine.
Dual-diagonal, power-assisted, 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS
Front Discs :
Automatic transmission -Ventilated, 11.4 in (300 mm) diameter; 1.1 in (28 mm) rotor thickness
Manual transmission - Brembo ventilated, 12.2 in (310 mm) diameter, 0.98 in (25 mm) rotor thickness
Rear Discs :
Solid, 11.1 in (282 mm) diameter; 0.35 in (9 mm) rotor thickness "
hondanews.com
Nissan North America has the highest profit margin of any major car company so far this year, even beating out perennial leader BMW, so I don't think they're really worried about how the G and the Altima are doing, which are doing fine BTW.
Actually, I bet that the next M outsells the next RL. Just a hunch.
http://autonet.ca/Autoshows/Stories.cfm?storyID=11574
what kind of 2.5L BMW stats??
With the success of the new TL, my money is also on the RL.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4655254/
Interesting sales stats, too.
Haha, I kinda dig the current one too (in a weird way)! Maybe it's because I only see one once in a blue moon.
"You forgetting one thing though, Nissan also spend less then any other manufacturer on the vehicle, result is big profit margin."
Nissan spends its money on engine/drivetrain, Toyota spends its money on nice interiors, and Honda does a combo of both, although it doesn't lead in either.
"With the success of the new TL, my money is also on the RL."
Well, we'll have a better idea in a few days.
With the upcoming GS, M, RL, and A6, to go along with the 5 and the E, we're gonna need a second board lest we get booted by the moderator for talking about them. That segment is really going to heat up.
Will this second board simply be named "Luxury Performance Sedans"?
Doubt that there will be many posts in there for the time being, since the new M, GS, RL, and A6 won't be out for a while.
BTW, people talking smack about Infiniti interiors...have they been in the FX? It's a fine interior, But what do I know I love my bimmer interior...somethings are more important than soft leather seats.
Look for the car to out perform the current G35 sedan..."
I found this in autospies. I don't know if it's autospies who want to spice it up. Or MB is really setting up G35 as performance bar to beat.
Good luck, MB, but it won't be easy, as Acura found out!
That their bank account is overflowing with record sales of the TL.
I guess you meant to say what Infiniti found out.
What a surprise........
I hear you blast the G35 interior but neglect to mention that the TL interior looks like a clone of the honda accord.
Even though I have a G35 coupe I can admit the interior needs some work. It is called being impartial. You should try it some time....wait a minute....I forgot, the TL is flawless ;-)
I'll go ( 328i )
1) Leather not aging that well
2) 80mph=3500RPM ( not that loud, but gas? )
3) Air cond not enough for five people in new mexico on hot day day. Takes time to cool car even in chicago.
4) Paint seems to chip/scratch easier than on my old saturn ( and, i mean, come on )
5) Cupholder specifically designed to hold no cup in the universe.
My old '900
1) Rusty underbody areas even after 4 years in new mexico
2) 65/35 weight split--felt as if there was a cinder block in front of the axle.
3) Dealer-set timer would make the car return for expensive repair every 4-5 months.
4) One dealer in town, and they knew it. "Yes, we are changing you wife's brake fluid for the third time in six months."
5) Turbo lag annoying a sea level, terrifying at 8,000 feet.
I could make a longer list of things i loved, but i'll refrain. Those are my 2 favorite cars! It's fun, let's play.
Outside the building I work in are parked a new 350Z, a new M5, lots of 3 series in every flavor,
my TL, new 3.5 Maxima and others. All nice cars and some I know for sure I would be very happy with ( as in M5 or 350Z ).
I wish we could see honest discussion here about some things that aren't what we thought they would be or need improving on the cars we bought. Most of the critic isms are aimed at cars we don't own. I'll go first..what the hell was Acura thinking when they designed the steering wheel location relative to the instrument panel ? You can't see the speedometer when the wheel is adjusted to where you want it. Maybe it is different for others depending on their driving position but neither my wife or I can see the speedometer with the wheel where we want it.
That doesn't detract from my driving enjoyment enough to outweigh the things I do like however.
I am going to drive three hours each way to play golf on Friday and one of the reasons is because I like driving my TL and I get the best of two worlds..a nice course and a nice drive. I am positive I would have an equally good time in G35 or a 330I or certainly in that M5.
I bought a TL because it suited me in the areas I considered important...price, styling and also it was car my wife also enjoys driving. I am sure the others here did the same.
I just object to having it jammed down my throat that I should have purchased a different car because ----- ( fill in the blanks ).