Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

blueguydotcom

Overpriced in your eyes - which is all that matters when buying - to me the price was right. A G35 manual at 27k with the features I required (leather, moon, xenons) still wouldnt be acceptable to my wallet because my heart wouldn't have been satisfied.

I've spent the first 28 years of my life being sensible with car purchases - I'd always take the better deal over the vehicle that really stirred my soul. Once I began looking in that over 25k bracket I decided I wouldn't settle for a car that didn't get me excited the moment I saw it.

We're all hardwired differently. My priorities were fun, manual, 4 doors over - price wasn't going to determine the purchase. never again if I can help it. I love cars too much to settle.

scott1

I agree with sawyerjon on the performance of the CTS with the new 3.6 liter engine. I traded in a navy blue 99 corvette for my luxury sport package equipped CTS, so I know how a true sports car is supposed to handle. While the CTS obviously doesn't have the horsepower that the corvette does, it handles extremely well...with tight responsive steering and brisk throttle response. The engine has a nice refined purrr to it too.
  Before ordering the CTS, I spent a month driving every other competitor I could think of, from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infinity, even a Lincoln LS. The only one I didn't consider was Honda/Acura. I had a really bad ownership experience with a Honda some years ago..and can't bring myself to buy another.
   For what I am looking for in a car at this point in my life, the CTS fit the bill better then anything else. It has room and comfort, very satisfying handling and acceleration, the luxury feel that I think I deserve, and bold styling that sets it apart from the crowd and turns heads on the road.

Scott

chrisboth

PS i dont have the stripper either so i know what you mean. As far as engine prowess you'd need to get the m3 to really have anything over on the G regardless of displacement. As we i believe agree, the zhp and the G sedan stocker is dead even for almost any category. At upper highway speeds the G may have a chance to outshine a tad.

And really price is an issue or we'd all be in maserati or lambo. Price is not an issue for a certain bracket or segment but you are still locked into that segment. I got to save 7 k from the 40k zhp and i can hang with it so i dont feel i compromised within my class...and ZHP is really a class higher imo (between m and 330).

shipo

...so the handling on the CTS has improved, what about the interior and even more so, the exterior? I just couldn't bring a face like that into my garage.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bxd20

CTS interior got some mild updates (a little more wood, a little more classy lighting of instruments). Full re-work for 2006 model. Exterior has had minor updates as well (trunk lid dropping that ugly grey and gaining a body color license bezel, better wheels, better onstar antenna style and positioning).

Ultimately, you have to like the styling of the car you're buying if you're a car guy. If you don't, no use trying to force it.

Dropping an extra $6000 is an easy decision for you? More power to you.

You eluded to a perf package 330 being $39k by saying if you were spending 33 what was a $6k more. I just priced out a 330 perf pack with just enough options so that it would equal a G35 or CTS in fairly basic form. MSRP came to $45k.
So that 330 with perf pack is at the VERY least $10k more than a G35 or CTS.

Putting price aside... The 3 series sedan simply isn't big enough for a trip of any length to have adults in the back seat, unless they're all of shorter statue. If you're very well off and don't need to carry more than two people around for any serious amount of time and the BMW speaks to your soul, enjoy. I think the rest of us (G35/TL/CTS/LS/9-3) will find wonderful ways to spend our $10k.

Brian

chrisboth

Im bigger than most so i find the 3 too small in the front as well - not bad but after a while its not quite as nice as the 5 sized G..and still less dough!

blueguydotcom

Dropping an extra $6000 is an easy decision for you? More power to you.

When it comes to happiness, yes. In the scheme of things if I keep the car for 3 years and paid it off, that'd be 2k a year. I'm not going to be unhappy for 2k a year. As I'm leasing it (for less than a comparable time/mileage lease of a 30k G35), I'm really paying maybe 200-300 extra a year. Is your auto bliss worth $50 a month? $2 a day? Mine is.

You eluded to a perf package 330 being $39k by saying if you were spending 33 what was a $6k more. I just priced out a 330 perf pack with just enough options so that it would equal a G35 or CTS in fairly basic form. MSRP came to $45k.

MSRP on my 330i with perf, metallic paint, xenon, leather and sunroof was 43k. I paid 39k for it in May of 2003.

So that 330 with perf pack is at the VERY least $10k more than a G35 or CTS.

Yeah I had negotiated a G35 down to 30k with the stuff I wanted. Still I wasn't overwhelmed by the G.

Putting price aside... The 3 series sedan simply isn't big enough for a trip of any length to have adults in the back seat, unless they're all of shorter statue.

A. Not my problem as I'm in the driver's seat.
B. If they don't like it, they can take a different car.
C. Most of my female friends are shorter than five-five.
D. I don't know 3 other males I'd drive anywhere with for five minutes, let alone to Vegas (300 miles).

I think the rest of us (G35/TL/CTS/LS/9-3) will find wonderful ways to spend our $10k.

That's my response to people who brag they paid cash for a car - 30-40k. I'd rather drop that as a downpayment on a house, rent the place, get 20% ROI a year and a fat tax write off.

We all value things differently. The car to me will disappear, the happiness will be a great memory and we can always make more money.

blueguydotcom

I love the concept of a hardtop convertible sport sedan. Not sold on the look - but that's useless compared to the fun - of the IS replacement. V8 power also troubles me...

Still it's an intriguing concept.

portknoxxa

Hey just got the MT issue. The comparo: Again they are trying to unseat the 3-series which was not invited this time, but several accolades and comparisons to the 3. Here are some of the results, all 5 speed autos.

*overall

1. G35-$31,485
2. CTS 3.6-$43,880
3. TL-$35,195
4. 9-3-$38,755

More interesting is that the TL posted a 0-60 time of 6.3, and that's the slowest i've seen posted for the TL

*0-60:

1. G35- 6.2s
2. TL- 6.3s
3. CTS- 6.6s
4. 9-3- 6.9s

*Braking 60-0

1. G35-111 ft.
2. 9-3-121 ft.
3. CTS-124 ft.
4. TL-128 ft.

*1/4 mile:

1. G35-14.68s @ 94.02mph
2. TL-14.78s @ 94.40
3. CTS14.99s @ 91.95
4. 9-3-15.09s @ 90.55

*Curb weight

1. 9-3- 3285
2. G35- 3369
3. TL- 3582
4. CTS- 3694

kdshapiro

Just as a side note, C&D noted the 330 ZHP covered the quarter mile in 14.3 seconds at 97 mph.

scott1

It seems that you either love or hate the CTS styling. The first time I saw one..I loved it, so you know what camp I'm in on that issue. :>

   I just put a coat of Meguiars new nxt generation tech wax on it this morning, and man does that dark blue metallic paint shine on there. With the mirror finished alloy wheels setting it off, The CTS is one fine looking car. I find myself looking back at it in parking lots a lot as I walk away....and it DOES turn heads on the road .
   I need the car I drive to look rich and distinctive, to be somthing that is not mistaken for a dozen other similiar cars. The CTS does that in spades.

mariner7

The claring weakness of TL is 100-0 braking. Downright ridiculous and dangerous compared to the others! There should be no excuse for it at all.

I drive previous gen TL regularly. Now that I know, I will be extra careful in hi speed driving.

chrisboth

Brembo is more of a name brand than substance...the G without the brembos stops faster i bet too.

riez

The Motor Trend comparison test was of cars with automatic transmissions.

Don't the Brembo brakes come standard on the manual transmission versions of TL? Can you upgrade the base automatic's brakes (i.e., are the Brembos optional on automatics)? Know the A-spec with AT comes with Brembos.

riez

Check out the May 2004 issue of C&D, page 132. Their "Short Take" on the TL A-Spec. They tested a 6-speed manual. MSRP as-tested was $40,895 (over base of $38,895. They titled it "Gilding the wrong parts of the lily?"

0-60 mph in 5.6 secs
5-60 mph in 6.2 secs
1/4 mile in 14.3 secs at 99 mph
70-0 braking in 174 ft
Skidpad 0.90g
Top speed 152 mph (drag limited)

They didn't see a significant difference in performance over base TL 6-speed manual in acceleration, braking, or skidpad numbers. (Braking performance was actually worse.)

One big problem remains: torque steer!

"What the A-Spec package does not address, however, is the biggest flaw of a TL with a manual transmission, and that's torque steer. Tramp on the throttle in one of the lower gears, and there's still that heavy tug at the steering wheel, particularly on pavement with lots of variations."

Appears that unlike BMW and its successful performance-enhancing 330i Perf Pkg (ZHP), Acura followed same mistakes Lexus did with its failed IS300 L-tuned and SportDesign programs. Huge chunk of money for styling mods!

blueguydotcom

I find myself looking back at it in parking lots a lot as I walk away....and it DOES turn heads on the road .

The Aztek turned heads too...

I need the car I drive to look rich and distinctive, to be somthing that is not mistaken for a dozen other similiar cars. The CTS does that in spades

You need this? Like a doctor prescribed, "Zou, should geet, a kar zhat attacks attention. Zoo need dis." You want a polarizing car. None of us need the entry-lux cars we have. A 5 year old accord would get the job done.

Riez, I'll never quite get how Lexus could try to snake thousands of dollars for L-tuned upgrades without increasing the performance. Weird. What do you think of that possible IS replacement? Talk about polarizing!

shipo

The brake sizes for the new TL were posted here a week or so ago, and I was wondering how they compared to my E39 530i:

TL-Auto:: 3575 lbs. -- 11.40" x 1.10" vented front -- 11.10" x 0.35" solid rear
TL-Manu: 3482 lbs. -- 12.20" x 0.98" vented front -- 11.10" x 0.35" solid rear
530i/5sp: 3494 lbs. -- 12.75" x 1.20" vented front -- 11.75" x 0.79" vented rear

Interesting reading.

Best Regards,
Shipo

scott1

Good point about the Aztek..but that one turns heads because its uncommonly ugly, not so the CTS. At the price point of the cars were discussing, we're not buying them just for basic transportation...a 10 thousand dollar Kia will get you from point A to point B. The participants in this forum are looking for something more from their car. We want that trip from point a to point b to be enjoyable.
   Styling will always be a personal preference, heck, the new BMW look has drawn very mixed reactions. Car stylists have to be more then just "safe", they need some originality, something in their designs that show that they can do something more then just copy whats already been done. If not, the roads will be filled with unassuming vehicles that may be pleasent, but sure not exciting.

qbrozen

I'm obviously missing something because when they first tested the TL, they pulled a .81g on the skidpad. So now its getting .9 with the add-on package?

They didn't see a significant difference in performance over base TL 6-speed manual in acceleration, braking, or skidpad numbers.

adding almost a full g is no small feat by any means. So where am I misreading?

chrisboth

.10 if a G adding a whole G and you'd have the grippiest car ever and i'd be in it!

blueguydotcom

Good point about the Aztek..but that one turns heads because its uncommonly ugly, not so the CTS.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... All of Cadillac's current styling strikes me for all the wrong reasons. Then again, I'm not a fan of flat surfaces, even if they're bisecting other lines - like the new 5 and the sides of the G35 sedan and coupe - there's too much flat metal and no hint of muscularity.

Styling will always be a personal preference, heck, the new BMW look has drawn very mixed reactions. Car stylists have to be more then just "safe", they need some originality, something in their designs that show that they can do something more then just copy whats already been done. If not, the roads will be filled with unassuming vehicles that may be pleasent, but sure not exciting.

True - the styling of the G and TL strike me as conservative and safe with a slight twist. The Audi's got a gorgeous Bauhaus thing going. The 3's sporting a classic crouched feline look. The IS,to me, goes more for an anime, blocky, smoothed over thing - I can't help but think of Japanese cartoons when I see them.

To me though design is the last reason to buy a car. What it looks like on the outside isn't relevant really as long as it's clean.

speedracer3

I really dig the look of the Saab 93. I don't care for the interior or what's under the hood(other than the Aero), but the styling is different and very attractive.

Edmunds Images:

chrisboth

Looks like a 3 series had a baby with a passat...not bad but I can help but think malibui max everytime i see one...and reliablity will be interesting on these guys - prob much better than before tho.

riez

qbrozen... You should read C&D's "Short Take".

They were comparing their results to the TL results published in the March 2004 comparison test.

"In the comparo, the standard [6-speed manual] TL pulled a respectible 0.89 g. The Yokohama-shod TL A-Spec managed 0.90."

70-0 mph braking for A-Spec was 174 feet versus 160 ft for the base TL.

riez

blueguydotcom... You should check out the latest issue of Automobile magazine. They chart projected changes. Plus interesting story about upcoming BMW 2 Series.

When I get my next car, my kids will be gone. I'll likely get a coupe or convertible. Thinking I want something smaller, lighter, and less complex. No need for iDrive, Nav system, all the electro-gizmos, etc. Maybe a turbocharged Miata. M2. But I'd also consider G35 coupe. Maybe IS coupe/convertible. (I'm very sad that Lexus is abandoning the better I6 configuration for plebian V6. That is something that makes the 3 Series and IS300 special. They better keep LSD!)

danny1878

Jealousy is a disease. :-)

It seems everycar/everyone is gunning at TL now. lol

If you need to go really fast into a corner, lets say 100mph then a LITTLE torque steer/handling is a problem. To most people, it doesnt matter at all. Especially who can handle it. If you cant, well buy another one. 7k is too much already :-)

speedracer3

If you need to go really fast into a corner, lets say 100mph then a LITTLE torque steer is a problem

Torque steer happens when you accelerate quickly from a stop. The car will pull to the right and may need correction to keep it straight. I think the biggest problem with the TL is not so much torque steer but the fact that it is too nose heavy. The latter affects handling and braking. Notice that the best handling sedans have nearly 50/50 weight distribution.

gpwatfrd

"Then again, I'm not a fan of flat surfaces, even if they're bisecting other lines - like the new 5 and the sides of the G35 sedan and coupe - there's too much flat metal and no hint of muscularity."

BLUEGUY,
Are you serious?
I know exterior is subjective but do you seriously think the G35 coupe does not have a muscular look to it. If that is the case than you are in the minority.

   "I need the car I drive to look rich and distinctive, to be something that is not mistaken for a dozen other similar cars. The CTS does that in spades."

SCOTT1,
I also think this car is a love it or hate it type of car. I would fall into the hate it category. The new STS is a big improvement in styling over the CTS.
As far as exclusivity goes. I don't know where you drive but the only types of autos around here that stand out are your lamborghini,rolls,etc...I have never given a second look to a CTS.

 Although, I rarely see an M45 around town, maybe the CTS falls along the same lines.......relax caddy fans, I'm just kidding, I know the CTS outsells the M45 by a wide margin.

danny1878

Sorry I dont feel any of it. I floored it once against mustang GT, I didnt feel any. VSC and LSD handled it nicely.

Do you own the car or just assuming it?

shipo

There have been plenty of times where I’ve experience torque steer that wasn’t induced by off the line acceleration. For instance, there is a grade on I-80 heading east from Hackensack toward the George Washington Bridge. On that grade, what with all of the traffic that road gets, the asphalt in each lane has been pressed into what sort of looks like an old country dirt lane. The lane divider regions and the middle of the lanes are an easy two to three inches higher than the rutted area where the tires typically run. When climbing that hill with anything beyond the power necessary to maintain your speed, the car starts to wander around the ruts. It is a very nervous feeling, and depending upon the quality of the car and its suspension, the phenomena ranges from mildly distracting to highly annoying, in fact, I’ve driven a few cheap rentals up that grade that were down right scary. I've also driven a number of RWD cars up that same grade and never experience a single wander, regardless of how much I was into the GO pedal.

FWD=Torque Steer=Bad

Best Regards,
Shipo

danny1878

all FWD=Torque Steer=Bad is wrong

Common FWD=torque steer=bad =true

FWD(TL)=Torque steer=bad= wrong, They do put TL in comparisons or to compete with any RWD.

Every magazine does it, why not common FWD like ES, Maxima?

any reason why? :-)

speedracer3

Danny,

Wanna feel torque steer?

Make sure the wheels are straight, floor it from a stop without your hands on the steering wheel. You car will veer right...you just experienced torque steer.

danny1878

Like I said I didnt feel any. If you feel it either you have the wrong FWD but definitely not the TL.

FYI, the RPM did go up fast but the car seemed adjusting itself. VSC/LSD must have got something to do with it.

Mustang GT, a RWD when accelerating fast from a stop, sometimes instead of going straight, it spins. Maybe it was a FWD.

speedracer3

Danny,

I didn't feel a thing cuz I never drove the new TL, but every Magazine article ever written about the new TL mentions noticeable torque steer on the on it.

danny1878

You know why, mine is an auto. lol

qbrozen

chrisboth - sorry. typing faster than my brain. you knew what i meant.

shipo - i was trying to look at it online and their March comparo doesn't state the TL skidpad number (unless I'm missing it). But, regardless, its interesting that their January test of the car netted a much lower number.

If .89 is true, then I certainly wouldn't bother with the A-spec pack.

Interestingly enough, the January review also calls attention to the fact that the .81 was not up to snuff against the G35s .87. So, what happens? The TL pulls a .89 and the G35 pulls a .90 in the March comparo? Hmmmmm....

And, by the way, according to the April issue, the 330i with performance pack pulled a .86 (.83 without).

speedracer3

You know why, mine is an auto

That shouldn't make a difference.

danny1878

Not all FWD equipped with TCS, VSA, LSD.

TL has them all, that's the difference. Next time maybe the SH-AWD TL, who knows.

dhanley

I hate to be pedantic, but what you're describing isn't torque steer--it's tramlining. I think it's highly correlated to tire height. My 3-series didn't do it much at all, but my saab REALLY did, so bad that my cousin refused to drive it on a road trip once. I was already used to it that that point, and barely noticed it.

Speedracer, i do really like those pictures, and i think a lot of new cars are just fugly.

speedracer3

Speedracer, i do really like those pictures, and i think a lot of new cars are just fugly

Pictures don't do it much justice. It looks a lot better on the road.

danny1878

These things keep me inside the vehicle most of the time
1. Reliability
2. Looks/styling
3. Comfort, extra features
4. Fuel efficiency
5. Low cost maintenance
6. safety features (VSA, TCS, LSD, Brakes, lane departure warning etc.)
7. Acceleration (late for a meeting)
8. Resale Value
9. prestige
10. Exclusivity

People seldom use (only a few):
1. Top speed (do you go 155mph daily?)
2. Best Handling(Tossing and fast turning, go to a race track often?)

blueguydotcom

I know exterior is subjective but do you seriously think the G35 coupe does not have a muscular look to it. If that is the case than you are in the minority.

I think it has too many flat surfaces without any lines breaking up the flow. The end result is more of a blob of metal - like the 04 5 series.

blueguydotcom

it's tramlining. I think it's highly correlated to tire height. My 3-series didn't do it much at all, but my saab REALLY did, so bad that my cousin refused to drive it on a road trip once. I was already used to it that that point, and barely noticed it.



Say what? My 35 series tires on my 330i tramline like crazy. Any road groove sends the car jerking in that direction. It's reached the point that I'll switch lanes if the road's got issues. As it's san diego - where they never repair roads - I'm always avoiding road problems.

designman

People seldom use (only a few):
1. Top speed (do you go 155mph daily?)
2. Best Handling(Tossing and fast turning, go to a race track often?)

Don’t know about “seldom” use of these. Even if you don’t take a car to performance limits its capabilities enable safer driving. A better performing car will allow you to accelerate and brake from trouble. A better handling car will allow radical maneuvering away from trouble. People tend to think sports cars are dangerous. I think they are akin to good preventive medicine and are the safest cars you can buy. The aggressive manner in which some people drive performance cars has everything to do with thrills and little to do with safety but I’m sure you get the point.

blueguydotcom

The aggressive manner in which some people drive performance cars has everything to do with thrills and little to do with safety but I’m sure you get the point.


Oh yeah. I drove the bimmer today and at lunch I just hit some curvy fun roads - over and over. Lunch, smunch, I've got 20 mph corners to take at insane speeds.

kominsky

Does you ZHP have a staggered setup? I've been told that staggered tire sizes increase tramlining. While I can't say for sure if this is true or not, I do notice that my staggered 8-month setup (245/40r and 225/45f) tramlines MUCH worse than my non-staggered winter setup (225/45's on all corners). Other factors that may play into this are; softer sidewalls on winter package, different tread patterns/materials, that extra inch of tread width on the rears during the summer may be just enough to catch more edges in the road... maybe a combination of them or maybe none at all.

designman

"Lunch, smunch, I've got 20 mph corners to take at insane speeds."

Get yourself a sports car and you'll never eat lunch again, not to mention all the hooky you'll be playing. I live for corners, bobbin', weavin', stoppin', goin', rowing the 6-speed.

kahunah

...about "torque steer" and "radical maneuvering away from trouble"...

Here's what CR wrote about these issues after their TL road test:

"The Acura feels taut and responsive in cornering, with well-contained body lean. The nicely weighted steering is communicative and quick. In emergency-handling tests, the TL demonstrated good tire grip and cornering balance, and it proved secure in our avoidance maneuver, where it posted a quick 52.5-mph. Powered by a smooth 270-hp, 3.2-liter V6, the TL is noticeably quicker than many of its competitors. Even with such high horsepower, the car was largely devoid of torque steer..."

kdshapiro

Sort of the exact opposite of the R&T article.

fedlawman

Don't read the magazines and then quote them here...we all subscribe to the same rags.

If you're going to say it's got torque steer, why don't you test drive one and then report back?