Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

chillenhonda

I read these boards hoping to gain useful knowledge about the cars and to learn about people's opinions based on their test drives, their experiences, and what they've learned from going to dealerships and auto shows.

Im not interested, and I dont think many other people are either, in some posters' biases, speculation, or uneducated bank-and-forth chatter. It isnt very helpful.

cheerioboy26

Good point about sales. I'll just toss in FWIW that after two years, the G35 sedan sales of 4,247 were the highest ever. Only one previous month, Aug. 03, over 4K.

billyperks

Where are you pulling your numbers from?

cheerioboy26

by manufacturer. March and YTD:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040401/auto_sales_table_1.html

blueguydotcom

BMW, Audi, Infiniti...game over! With sales of the TL already exceeding 7,000 units a month, what car in this class could possibly compete with say an SH-AWD 6-speed TL packing 300+ hp? Yeah, I know...won't come with a 6-speed...

If it doesn't have a manual, what's the point of the car? That's like a house without plumbing.

mariner7

The numbers for Nissan and Mazda in a way are deceptive, they're just making up ground lost to Toyota and Honda in the 90's. And they still have some way to go! With the recent success of Nissan/Mazda, you can bet Toyota/Honda are going to pay much more attention to exterior designs from now on.

The euro is really hurting the Euros in these incentive laden times. The Swedes don't use the euro, do they? Maybe that's why Volvo sales are increasing compared to the Germans.

Who's at VW going to stop the bleeding?

billyperks

offers a lot of rebates on their product so that kind of explains why they are to able to move that much units.

Honda on the other hand might just give you a 1.9 finance rate that is offerd once in a blue moon and they are still able to move a substantial amount of units.

What does that tell you about Honda products?

pat

Honda, VW, Nissan, Toyota and Mazda aren't the subject here...

(And I don't want to hear that Acuras are Hondas and Lexuses are Toyotas, so don't bother. )

dhanley

Just a quibble with the honda AWD comments, but audi already distributes power front/back left/right.

dave

kdshapiro

And so does xdrive/atesa, the point is Honda is playing catch-up in the market place.

blueguydotcom

xdrive is garbage though. If it feels like the trash I endured for a weekend driving the X3 3.0, then I'd run from the TL AWD. Yikes!

kdshapiro

While you had it for a weekend, I had it for a few hours, and I liked it very much. I liked it enough to buy it. So I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

kahunah

"Honda is playing catch-up in the market place."

Though this may be true, they ultimately end up with the best products. Examples, Odyssey, MDX, Nav System, 3.2 VTEC, TL, 6-Speed, SH-AWD...too much to list.

blueguydotcom

It basically stepped in and interferred with my cornering constantly. Every corner I felt the xdrive system sapping entry speed and neutralizing the handling of the X3 3.0. I wasn't just fighting the less-than-nimble handling of the X3 but also an overly-intrusive system that negates spirited driving in the name of "safety."

speedracer3

Though this may be true, they ultimately end up with the best products.

I think you are talking about Toyota who is still taking Honda to the cleaners every year while Nissan is slowly narrowing the margin for the #2 spot.

chrisboth

Rebates? I wish they had Infiniti rebates! KDS did you buy an x-3?

speedracer3

No rebates at Infiniti, but if you want to buy a Q45 they'd probably give it to you below invoice.

billyperks

the I35's away, the G is next in line, not to mention the M45(does anyone buy this car).

FX are going out the door waaay below invoice.

speedracer3

You are probably right about the I35s, Q45, and M45s, but I think you are way off with G35s and FXs, the latter ones are selling well.

blueguydotcom

Last I heard the G and FX are super strong sellers. The I35 is ancient and the Q and M are dogs right now.

kdshapiro

blueguy - you didn't flog the car on ice and snow. I drove the thing fairly hard on pavement and didn't think it interfered one iota.

chris - I'm looking at the x-3 as my next vehicle. My post was mis-worded. It should have said, if the dealer and I would have reached an agreement it would have already been in my driveway.

fedlawman

"Acura is talking about introducing a revolutionary AWD system, which not only distributes torque front to rear but also left to right"

The Jeep "Quadra-Drive" AWD setup does this, as does the non-locking version, "Versatrak" used on the Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous.

Question...

I picked up the latest Motor Trend today for reading on the plane ride home from DC and read the CTS, TL, 9-3, G35 comparo. All of them were automatics, and MT got the Saab to go from 0-60 in 6.9 seconds! When they did the C230, 9-3, TSX comparo last July, a 6-speed manual Saab did 0-60 in 8.3 seconds. Isn't 1.5 seconds a pretty large gap, especially considering the latest has a slush box?

pg48477

Quadra-drive is totally different, it moves power from spinning wheel to the one with more traction, almost any AWD, 4WD system can do it. What Acura build is totally different, it measures actual g force and shift torque from one side to another in hard acceleration. thay use cloches in rear differential. I'm not an expert but I have not seen anything like it.

dhanley

6.9 seems realistic to me based on the weight, torque, etc. The less poweful previous 9-3 turbo was about that fast. 'Twas a fun car once you learned to accept the turbo lag. I don't think the 9-3 was "outclassed" during that test, especially if you look at the OTD prices on carsdirect.com. With just a part of the money you save, you can get this : http://www.genuinesaab.com/tuning/440.htm

286ft-lb, yummy.

kdshapiro

Quadra-drive is heavy duty 4wd system that will deliver 100% of torque to any one wheel. It is meant for keeping the vehicle moving while towing a 5000lbs load.

All new awd systems vary the power front to back and left to right as measured by the electronics. BMWs system can operate with any two wheels spinning and will vary the output to any one wheel even going into a curve.

mariner7

For certain new M45 is going to clean RL's clock, AWD or not. That'd be the same AWD first used in minivan Odyssey. Finally it makes its way to the top of Acura sedan!

Did you see my post showing Acura was the only premium brand to lose market share in California between 2001-2003? Even Lincoln gained some, now that's saying something! BTW, Infiniti gained the most share during that period.

I finally read the MT comparo. The editors didn't have a fun time in that glorified Accord, did they? Especially when they had G for comparison. While more powerful than G, TL got beat in every performance category! But I'm sure TL is pretty good, for FWD!

rderizans

On the car model sales figures (I think Danny posted them?) I noticed it said 330i and 325i. Do those figures include the AWD models? Same for the G35x. Just curious.

Also, one other thing to consider in sales figures is the distribution channel. Within 30 miles I have 4 Acura dealers, 3 BMW dealers, 2 Mercedes dealers and 1 Infiniti dealer. Also, although the G35 RWD sedan is selling near invoice in my area, the G35x and FX models are dealing on an "MSRP minus" basis, not an "Invoice plus" basis. Discounts are less than those on the BMW or Acura TL. Again, probably a reflection of lower supply rather than higher demand for my area. To me it seems that the Infiniti dealer network size hasn't caught up with the popularity of the G and FX models.

jrock65

Including AWD models, BMW sold 6219 3 series sedans in March. Not bad for a model near the end of its run.

The Infiniti G35 figure includes AWD models. I agree that part of why Infiniti isn't selling even more vehicles is because their dealer network size is pretty small. Hopefully this situation will be rectified as Infiniti keeps on making more hits. You gotta remember that Infiniti almost got pulled as a brand a few years ago, and only the "lowly" I35 kept this from happening.

pg48477

Like old M45 cleared RL. Just so you know, Acura soled more RL in 2004 than Infinity sold M45 and Q45 combined and don't forget RL is 7 years old. Infiniti can't even sell G35, even old TL outsold the new G. I think Infiniti has a long way to go. Who cares about California, Acura had record month in March selling almost 18,000 vehicles. I bet Infiniti did not even come close.

danny1878

If it is that good y they couldnt sell more? mind over matter?:-P

kahunah

You draw ridiculous conclusions based on little or no facts and you are compromising your integrity in the process. First, the new SH-AWD system is totally revolutionary and does not exist in any other vehicle. It will render all other AWD systems, obsolete. Second, you don't even know what the new RL looks likes, so what basis do you conclude that the M45 will "clean its clock". Third, there is no other FWD performance car in the world that could compete with the TL -- that is a fact. But, (as Car & Driver stated) if it was RWD, it would win every comparo!

I respectfully suggest that you support your statements with facts or don't bother posting at all.

speedracer3

1) To all, I couldn't give a hoot who sells more or who sells less. I buy cars cuz I like them. I trust both Acura and Infiniti, if either of them put out a great product, I'll but it, not the hype. Besides, who wants to drive a car that the whole world has. Some exclusivity appeals to ME.

2)Kahuna, To say that an AWD system that is not even out yet will render all others obsolete is like counting your lottery winnings before you play. Let's wait an see till it's out an how it does.

3) Face reality Kahuna, TL is NOT RWD and it is losing every comparo to the G35 which IS RWD. BTW... in regards to fast FWD cars..the Maxima is only .2 seconds slower (Motor Trend) than the TL and can be had for thousands less. Let's see what Nissan has in store next. Let the HP wars continue

blueguydotcom

1) To all, I couldn't give a hoot who sells more or who sells less. I buy cars cuz I like them. I trust both Acura and Infiniti, if either of them put out a great product, I'll but it, not the hype. Besides, who wants to drive a car that the whole world has. Some exclusivity appeals to ME.

Preach on, brother!

2)Kahuna, To say that an AWD system that is not even out yet will render all others obsolete is like counting your lottery winnings before you play. Let's wait an see till it's out an how it does.

Still with ya.

danny1878

Do you really believe by spending $30-40k you can get exclusivity?

Sorry but maxima is a failure in nissan division and out of this comparo, dont bother. Otherwise HP and Microsoft would be in that comparo too.

I couldn't give a hoot who sells more or who sells less.
People dont really care what other people choose, they buy what they think is better. Unless they are fools. :-)

TL is NOT RWD and it is losing every comparo to the G35 which IS RWD
Have you read CR, a magazine that doesnt accept contribution from any manufacturer and buy their own items for testing. TL 1st.

Take a look at C&D comparo, TL won on almost everything except RWD feelings.

I hope it can help its sales, good luck.

speedracer3

Danny,

Yes. I can spend $30K and have some exclusivity. I drive an Audi A4 and see a lot less of them than TL. I see a TL every other block.

Before the V6 Altima came around the Maxima used to outsell both V6 Camrys and Accords combined every single year of its existance. That's far from failure. Although not in the comparo, the current Maxima will give the TL an run for its money.

You are right, we buy what we think is better...but what is BETTER differs from one person to the next.

kdshapiro

"Have you read CR, a magazine that doesnt accept contribution from any manufacturer and buy their own items for testing. TL 1st."

What is your metric? It doesn't outhandle the RWDers. Lexus ES330 has a much nicer interior than the TL. CR blew this one.

"Take a look at C&D comparo, TL won on almost everything except RWD feelings."

TL has only scored when doing a drop clutch start. Other than that it's times are average. I won't debate they give an all-around package for the money, but it squarely is in the middle to end of the heap when you look across every single review and not single out one review where a clutch dump was performed. Everybody talks about how fast it is, yet I know no one who would want to replicate the 5.7 second to 60 time.

danny1878

Before the V6 Altima came around the Maxima used to outsell both V6 Camrys and Accords combined every single year of its existance.
The best record of maxima's sales (so far I can get only) is 15k units in march 2002 while accord 31k to 38k units.

Yes the current maxima will give the TL a run for its money by dropping it's sales -27.2% in march.

Audi A4 sales for march is 3905 units
Audi as a whole managed to sell 7469 units in march. It is exclusive. :-)

Kds, TL :
doesn't perform/outhandle RWDers
is not as luxurious as ES330
is not cheaper than other car except BMW (std ver. no A-spec)
Acura brand is not considered as a premium brand to some people.

AND no car on this category can outsell it. Wow the greatest anomaly ever.

Gtg. :-)

dhanley

Yeah, but my dad can beat up your dad.

:-P

kdshapiro

Yeah but MacDonalds sells more than any other. That must mean it's the best. What an anomaly!

jrock65

Apparently, the refreshed 2005 G35 won't be shown at the NY Auto Show. Kind of a bummer. Who knows, maybe they will though.

fedlawman

The Altima with it's nicely revised interior and 250 hp V-6 makes a strong statement to "just say no" to the Maxima.

kahunah

Like I said, there is no other FWD performance car in the world that could compete with the TL...period! In fact, the TL is the ONLY FWD car that could give the top RWD cars in this category a run for their money. The comparos prove it.

speedracer3

You are so concerned with sales, why didn't you buy yourself a Toyota Camry or a Ford F-150...they sell a lot more of those than TLs. It is obvious that you are not much of a car enthusiast, all you can do is quote sales figures. You trying very very hard to justify your purchase. I am happy with what I drive, I don't need to convince myself or the rest of the world that I made a good decision...and neither should you.

Kahuna,

The comparos prove that the TL is continously getting trounced by RWD cars. The previous TL got pounded by RWD cars also, nothing has changed.

fedlawman

"The previous TL got pounded by RWD cars also, nothing has changed."

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.

Even staunch RWD supporters must admit that Honda and Acura has always given the RWD benchmarks a run for the their money in comparo's.

The Prelude, TL-S, Integra, RSX, and TSX are all examples of FWD cars that handle virtually as well as their RWD couterparts, and are repeatedly top finishers in magazine comparisons.

The TL may not be as quite as balanced as a 330i, but it certainly is an amazing sport sedan that offers an enviable blend of performance, styling, quality, luxury, and value. Now, if you value pure, unfiltered RWD handling above all else, it's not the car for you. But for everyone else, it's a tantalizing car.

blueguydotcom

The best record of maxima's sales (so far I can get only) is 15k units in march 2002 while accord 31k to 38k units.

You're not very good at research...a simple visit to Nissan News reveals that in 2001 nissan sold 102k Maximas in north america. In 2002, they moved 98k.

Honda and Toyota openly admit that V6 sales make up less than 20% of the total Camcord sales. The Max, unless this changed for 2003, still reigns as the midsize V6 import.

Audi A4 sales for march is 3905 units
Audi as a whole managed to sell 7469 units in march. It is exclusive. :-)

I'm not sure why you're enamored with sales. You really need that validation, don't you? bob, bought one too, gosh it must be a good car.

Acura brand is not considered as a premium brand to some people.

Acura is a tweener brand. Again, even Honda execs will admit they're not viewed as a full blown luxury brand. Cars like the RSX make that impossible.

AND no car on this category can outsell it. Wow the greatest anomaly ever.

People don't generally buy for the same reasons. One man's quality, is another man's cast off. In southern California when you look at new home sales, at least 90% are track homes - 2000-4000 square foot, bland, poorly built, ugly, cookie-cutter homes on flattened land with no trees. So by your logic, because most people when buying new get track homes, then home buyers in general prefer planned communities, 4 variations of homes designs and no individuality.

KB Homes, because they sell the most, using your logic, build the best homes - more people choose them. They all can't be fools, right? It's all about sales... quality, individuality, are not a part of the equation.

pat

Again, this discussion is not about Nissans, Hondas or Toyotas.

We have a full plate already with this topic - we don't need to keep dragging in vehicles that aren't on the table.

If anyone needs to double-check what we are discussing here, see pat Mar 19, 2004 5:34pm

riez

March 29th issue of Forbes magazine (you can see the link at the IS300 board) has an interesting article about the Lexus IS300 and LF-C coupe prototype (which has a V8).

Glad to see the IS300 "has an average buyer's age of 30, the youngest for any Toyota vehicle--and that includes cars from Scion, the new subsidiary Toyota created to attract the under-30 customer."

Unfortunately, sales slid 33% from 2002 (20,306 units) to 2003 (13,559 units). Mentions "strong chance Lexus will kill the IS300 wagon (SportCross)." Forbes lists following 2003 sales data:

All BMW 3 Series: 111,944
All MB C-class: approximately 65,600
IS300: 13,559

Only time will tell if Lexus creates IS300-replacement coupe and convertible. Will be most interesting if they do.

pg48477

kd, In fast food category McDonalds is the best, and it sell more then any other brand for a reason. Same for near luxury Acura sell more TL's than any other manufacturer in it's class, and as you know TL is not that cheaper than competition. You can argue as much as you want but TL is one of the best cars in the class.

speed, As we all agreed many times before, there much more to performance than 0-60, so don't even bother with Maxima. If you don't agree it's you problem, but when you take group of cars in the same category sales numbers will show which cars is better. Take G35 for example, it handles a bit better than TL but overall it's not even close. Same stands for Camry, I don't think has the best performance or looks, but overall it is the best car in it's class.

jrock65

I think the G35 overall is very close to the TL. I also think that the Accord is the best car in its class, although I have a sweet spot for the Altima.

danny1878

You're not very good at research...a simple visit to Nissan News reveals that in 2001 nissan sold 102k Maximas in north america. In 2002, they moved 98k.

You are wrong blueguydotcom, I said 15k unit in March 2002(that was the highest record but not for the whole year), and for Accord, 31-38k units was it's monthly sales. Anyway 105k/year is less than 9k/months while accord 31-38k/month.

Next time when you need food, just buy maxima/BMW not burger. Again you guys are trying to compare different item, diff. segment, diff. creature. I am talking about entry-level-luxu.-perf. sedan not burger, not truck f150, not camry(family sedan),not autohomes, not toilet, not software, not watches etc.

Sorry boss, I didnt know that I cant quote sales figure, 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, LSD, Voice command, DVD-A, 60-0, etc. I have tried so hard to find something bad about the car but so far only RWD feelings. That's not even allowed in this discussion here. Is this called Car enthusiast's discussion? lol.

Do I need validation with 7k people buying evry month? lol.
TL is the only FWD that can compete with 330i, G35, RWDer.

Jrock, I also prefer altima, new camry over accord and G35 coupe. I am trying to like the new accord bcuz I will need a replacement for my accord in a year or two.

It's been fun indeed.:-)