Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

blueguydotcom

You are wrong blueguydotcom, I said 15k unit in March 2002(that was the highest record but not for the whole year), and for Accord, 31-38k units was it's monthly sales. Anyway 105k/year is less than 9k/months while accord 31-38k/month.

Honda sold 31k V6 Accords in a month?! Check your stats, as that's just not possible. In fact, if you broke it down it was probably more like 6k V6 accords, maximum.

Again you guys are trying to compare different item, diff. segment, diff. creature. I am talking about entry-level-luxu.-perf. sedan not burger, not truck f150, not camry(family sedan),not autohomes, not toilet, not software, not watches etc.

It's all the same. My house, just like my BMW, my computer and the salmon in the fridge is just a product.

Sorry boss, I didnt know that I cant quote sales figure, 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, LSD, Voice command, DVD-A, 60-0, etc. I have tried so hard to find something bad about the car but so far only RWD feelings. That's not even allowed in this discussion here. Is this called Car enthusiast's discussion? lol.

Quote all you want. It seems people are desperate for others to approve of their purchase. It's not good enough that you like the car, it seems important that 7k people this month did too. This is akin to people who cite box office as proof a movie is good. $1.8 billion in box office doesn't mean a film's good by default and 7k sales in a month doesn't either. The Accord sold 30k+ cars last month, I'll flat out say it, the Accord is not a good car. So 30K people made a bad decision? Maybe not for them, but I found it bulky, wallowy and just not a fun experience. On a scale of 1/10, the Accord would rank about 3 or 4 for me.

TL is the only FWD that can compete with 330i, G35, RWDer.

True, so what do sales have to do with that? I like the TL. I do not like the stigma that goes with BMW buyers and I'm not digging the vibe I'm getting from some TL buyers in here too. This reminds me of the attitude when the G35 arrived (KD I bet you remember those posts) and many G35 owners were not content to love their cars - they wanted the world to nod and say, "You got a great deal on a BMW beater." Time has passed and now the G35's just another legit option (unlike previous Infinitis). You don't see that attitude as much with the G. But boy has it come on strong with the TL.

So for you, you got a great deal. The TL is a wonderful car, love it for what it does for you. How do others feel about it? Does it matter? Unless they're buying you the car, what anyone else thinks of your purchase should not be relevant.

Being the best selling car in any class is a useless stat when it comes to making your buying decision. You don't automatically buy the bestselling of other products do you? So, why would it matter with a stupid toy?

speedracer3

Danny

Sorry for being a little too personal by mentioning audi sales. I like it's stying and comfort. :-)

You can quote sales all you want. I love my A4, and I don't care if they sell 2 or 200K Audis. As a matter of fact the whole VW/Audi division is in the toilet right now. So?. I lease my car, when the lease is over if I like another Audi I'll get it, or if not I'll get something else.

More on the TL. the recent Motor Trend comparo commented that steering was overboosted, torque steer was evident, brakes were worse in the group, and the turning circle is huge, equivalent to Dodge Ram truck. Doesn't say sport sedan to me...just a guzzied up Honda Accord with a big engine.

kdshapiro

I fully agree if you classify the TL as an average family car and classify the 330i as an average family car, the TL would probably win as a vehicle more people would want to drive. But if that concept is extended you get back to Ford Taurus as the pre-eminent family car. I can see how CR could think the TL has more *utility* than a 330i.

But now if one is talking near luxury sports sedans, FWD fall short. The recent R&T review seems to echo some of the sentiment of torque steer.

Yes the TL may have more *utility* than a 330i, but it is not a better sports sedan. That's why CR got it wrong. It doesn't matter how many TLs are sold, each one of them comes with a little bit of torque-steer.

Yes, "I'll have my sports sedan: torque-steer to go!"

designman

Blueguy… can't figure out how you hate FWD yet like the TL. Tends to be confusing but is indicative of what the TL has going for itself.

Curious how there's no mention of drive type for the FWD cars on the Acura website. The only places where drive type is documented are with NSX(RWD) and MDX(4WD). Seems to be tacit admission of the growing sentiment against it, and that reports of Acura migration to AWD is most believable and to be expected.

The new TL seems to be real popular and is becoming ubiquitous, but FWD is getting incredibly negative PR… must present a major headache for the manufacturers who have years of equity in it.

Here's a bit of this negative PR:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2081194/

raher

I am not sure that the link provided convinces me that FWD is getting a lot of negative PR.
Mickey Knaus ( whoever he is ) isn't someone who I am willing to accept as having a lot of influence in the marketplace or anywhere for that matter. That conclusion became apparent when I saw his source for most of what he is stating as his opinion was a GM suspension expert.
GM experts on suspension ? The expert must have based his dissertation on those terrific suspensions on Buicks.
People here keep dissing the sales figures. The sales figures are much more of realistic indicator of the buying publics acceptance or rejection of FWD automobiles. The TL is out selling all of the RWD cars that Pat allows us to discuss on this board as entry level luxury performance sedans. I don't believe the majority of car buyers care as much about FWD versus RWD as the very small number of participants on this board do.
I know the people here who believe they are different because they don't buy cars lots of other people do will take exception. Taking exception is certainly their right but it doesn't alter the fact that Acura continues to manufacture and sell a lot of really fine FWD cars in a class dominated by RWD cars. The reason is they give a lot of value for the money and that seems to be more important to people than what kind of drivetrain the car has.
Pat has sent me to the penalty box lately so I have to be a kinder, gentler commentator. It 's against my nature.

jrock65

"This reminds me of the attitude when the G35 arrived (KD I bet you remember those posts) and many G35 owners were not content to love their cars - they wanted the world to nod and say, "You got a great deal on a BMW beater.""

Or the attitude of BMW owners that the 3 was still the "better" car. They wanted the world to say, "The 3 is still the king of its class."

TL owners point to sales and accolades, I remember 3 owners doing exactly the same thing.

kdshapiro

"The TL is out selling all of the RWD cars that Pat allows us to discuss on this board as entry level luxury performance sedans."

There is nothing inherently wrong with FWD. Sales only has to do with popularity, not best of breed. Even CR says the TL is basically a "torted up" (sic) Accord.

jrock - nobody is not saying the TL is not a good car. It offers good "value" for the money. You can point to the accolades fair enough as long as you point to criticsms. One of the big ones is torque-steer. Now we can debate endlessly on whether that matters to an individual. But the question is, how acceptable is it in the near-entry level sports sedan segment?

The G35 debate was different in that it got down to the precision handling of a 330 vs the more "family oriented value" of the G35 with less "precision and finesse". And again those types of differences are open to a wide range of different opinions in a public forum such as Edmunds. But it depends on your priority in an automobile.

pg48477

kd, don't kid yourself 330 is not a sport sedan either. Sales figures basically show how many people prefer one car over another. In case of Near luxury (G35, 330,TL and so on) TL is a best seller and so more people than not think it's the best in the class, that is why they buy it. Now, we all have different opinion, but at the end the majority wins.

blue, What difference does it make V6 or not, Honda sells more Accords than Altima and Maxima combined, so what's your point. Plus Altima is total garbage even compared with basic Accord. Strong V6 does not make car much better, espacialy in family sedan category.

jrock65

There were many, many, many different G35 vs. 3 debates.

I was just referring to the fact that just as many G35 owners looked for "approval" from the world, so did many 3 owners in defending the 3.

It's interesting that you mention that one must point out criticisms of the TL. I don't remember you criticizing the 3 a single time for anything. Correct me if I'm wrong.

How acceptable is torque steer in the entry level performance car segment? It depends on how you define a entry level performance car. To me, it is definitely one of the biggest weaknesses of the TL in the light of being considered a "performance sedan."

How's the X3 purchase going? Did you get it yet?

hoyahenry

The 'FWD-is-bad-torque-steer-proves-it-camp' have yet to answer the So what? question. I'll accept the torque steer to no-drive during periods of inclement weather. In good weather, just give it a little "more right rudder" and go - and it does go.

In other words, I want year-round, versatile performance; FWD is aces when the weather goes in the can, and the TL makes it easy to get a high performance, highly versatile, luxury platform.

If torque steer is the trade off, I'm all for it. To me, the advantages of FWD far outweigh the negative perception of torque steer.

shipo

You know, I too bought the FWD="Better in Snow Argument" back in the late 1970s. For many years there was no one who could convince me otherwise. Then in 1999 I bought a 328i and found that with the standard issue All-Season tires it was nearly as good as my 1995 Passat in slippery conditions. Since then I have both moved to New Hampshire (where we had 114" of snow last winter) and upgraded to a 530i, which I equipped with winter tires. Simply put, the 530i, when shod with my winter wheel/tire set, is the finest winter driving vehicle I have ever had the pleasure to push through inclement conditions.

The fact is that the RWD cars discussed in this topic, with a good set of winter tires mounted, will run rings around a similar FWD car running Summer tires or even All-Seasons for that matter. For my money, THAT is what truly constitutes versatile performance.

As for torque steer, I am really glad that I don't have to put up with that anymore. Oh how I hated torque steer!

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro

"kd, don't kid yourself 330 is not a sport sedan either."

Correct, it is an entry level luxury sports sedan.

"I don't remember you criticizing the 3 a single time for anything. Correct me if I'm wrong."

I have criticisms of the 3-series, none related to handling though. Could be bigger, could offer more horsepower for the same money. Could have better cupholders, could offer more features included in the price, etc. Could have a better all-around reliability rating from the companies that measure such things.

"If torque steer is the trade off, I'm all for it. To me, the advantages of FWD far outweigh the negative perception of torque steer."

To each their own with regard to the importance of attributes of automobiles.

jrock65

"I have criticisms of the 3-series, none related to handling though. Could be bigger, could offer more horsepower for the same money. Could have better cupholders, could offer more features included in the price, etc. Could have a better all-around reliability rating from the companies that measure such things."

Fair enough.

danny1878

fully agree if you classify the TL as an average family car and classify the 330i as an average family car, the TL would probably win as a vehicle more people would want to drive. But if that concept is extended you get back to Ford Taurus as the pre-eminent family car.

If you can extend such concept, why limit them to a family car category only? why not 'All car & trucks and ship (all kind of transportation)' category. Next one will be burger, toilet paper.

blueguydotcom

V6? I never said its only V6, Maxima vs Accord .

If you're not comparing V6 to V6 sales, then you're using a dubious metric. The Max is offered as the top end of the midsize range from Nissan. The 4 banger accord is specifically designed to appeal to a different buyer. Do you not grasp that? The vast majority of buyers don't give a hoot about handling, power or performance - thus the reason cars like the ES330, Accord and Fords/GMs sell well.

Do you think all those 7k people had their decision from sales figures

The truth? I think price, Honda reputation and standard equipment drive the majority of TL sales and always have. A comparable equipment wise 330i would run well over 5k more. To most buyers, imho, the lack of RWD would mean nothing to them as they buy appliances. When I help friends/family buy cars and they're looking to drop 30-40k, the general statements are, I need something reliable, something pretty luxurious, its got to have a little power.

So I'll take them out and if they drive a 33k version of a G35, TL, A4 and 325i they'll walk away most impressed by the price/power/equipment of the G, TL. Only one person still wanted the 325 over the past two years...he fell in love with the handling but he drives cars hard (G was number 2 for him fwiw).

designman
Blueguy… can't figure out how you hate FWD yet like the TL. Tends to be confusing but is indicative of what the TL has going for itself.

I recognize the excellent value. Look at all you get for that scary low price! If I'd gone TL (which was not out last year in May), I'd have saved a big chunk of change and had a car that would offer probably 90% of what I got (minus of couse the more useless visual and tactile cues I prefer on the 3 series). If money or equipment had been the primary determining factor in my purchase I would have gotten the TSX (remember no TL then).

In the end I fell for the roar of the motor, the the pull of the 6, solid turn-in and the bone-jarring ride of my ZHP

hoyahenry

Careful. I drove a 325 and 528 all over central MA and NH for many years! We both know that the weather there chooses the time and place it wants to make a mess, and that may not be in synchronous harmony with when (or where) we finally have the opportunity to switch out the tires for the conditions.

At the end of the day, it is physically impossible to fish tail a fwd car unless it is going in reverse, up hill. Moreover, with a good set of all season tires and fwd, there's nothing to do if it snows 3 feet one week and happens to be 70 the next.

kahunah

"The fact is that the RWD cars discussed in this topic, with a good set of winter tires mounted, will run rings around a similar FWD car running Summer tires or even All-Seasons for that matter. For my money, THAT is what truly constitutes versatile performance."

Nice try with the apples and oranges comparison. The fact is, my TL with winter tires can run circles around your 530i, any day of a winter week.

kdshapiro

"The fact is, my TL with winter tires can run circles around your 530i, any day of a winter week."

Okay I'll take you up on it. Having recently been in a RWD Mercedes with winter tires in the snow. I can say it ruled. Would have definitely outhandled any FWD car even with snows.

shipo

For me and the kind of driving that I do, there is no replacement for RWD, unless there is a properly balance (meaning power AND weight) AWD solution available. Regarding when the weather does its worst, I have opted for the Michelin Arctic-Alpin tires, and while they are no match for the summer set that I have, they are easily the dry road handling equal of a typical set of All-Season tires. As such, I don't need to replace them until mid to late April.

Regarding the new TL (a design by the way that is what, 8 years newer than my 530i), yes, I have no doubt that it will out accelerate my 530i in snowy conditions, however, given its front end bias, I'd bet that the 530i will stop shorter and probably handle better. Nope, I find it highly unlikely that it would run rings around the 530i.

Best Regards,
Shipo

speedracer3

Blue,

If money or equipment had been the primary determining factor in my purchase I would have gotten the TSX (remember no TL then).

The TL was still around, it was blowing trannys remember?

blueguydotcom

The TL was still around, it was blowing trannys remember?

Speed, lol. That TL didn't exist on my shopping list. It didn't even have a manual. Without a manual, I couldn't consider it.

wco81

"I have criticisms of the 3-series, none related to handling though. Could be bigger, could offer more horsepower for the same money. Could have better cupholders, could offer more features included in the price, etc. Could have a better all-around reliability rating from the companies that measure such things."

No kidding. Any 330 well equipped comes out to about $45k MSRP before tax and license. The 325 also well equipped come out well over 35k.

These cars are the size of sub-compacts.

A local BMW dealer was running a "special" of $127 for an oil change. I thought oil changes were included for 4 years? That must be why BMWs '99 or older only cost $99?

pat

I have removed some of the most blatant off-topic messages that have been posted since my last request that we stick to the subject.

If you folks want this discussion to continue, let's keep it on track, okay? And let's lose the hostility... there's no need for it.

kdshapiro

"No kidding. Any 330 well equipped comes out to about $45k MSRP"

That is an statement that perhaps needs to be modified to: "A 330i equipped with every available option is $45K." I never buy any vehicle with EVERY available option. With the exception of buying Japanese cars without the choice of options, no person I know of buys a car with every available option. Even those that opt for the extremely high-end cars.

Now we all recognize there is a different value scale between Japanese and German vehicles.

"These cars are the size of sub-compacts."

Having sat in the back of a TL and G, I can honestly say I was underwhelmed by feeling of lack of space in the back seat. So yes the 3-series is slightly smaller, but at least it doesn't *LOOK* like it should have a big back seat.

The back seat in the TL and G are *bigger*, but it is not as roomy overall as one would think given the relative sizes of these cars to the 3-series. I still felt very cramped back there.

kahunah

Is that what you think it takes to out maneuver a TL in snow -- an overpriced, overweight, underpowered RWD Mercedes with winter tires? LOL

pg48477

Not that driving in snow matters for this category, but I think you wrong. One guy from work was not able to take his S500 up the slope in snow (not big angle just long), he left his car at the office and went home with other co-worker driving RL(FWD). Oh yes, he had Winter tires on the car (S500).

jmess

I wonder how folks survived in the olden days when almost all cars were RWD and nobody had traction control or snow tires.

03oddity

...but this discussion leaves me a bit confused. Except for price, I see no reason why the subcompact 3-series BMW or Audi A4 could be compared at all with the midsize Saab 9-5 or Acura TL. As a 6-footer, I feel downright claustrophobic in either of the German offerings. Yes, I understand that handling may be marginally better in the smaller cars, but the same is true of a go-kart. The more apt comparison would be 5-series BMW or Audi A6, both of which are seriously overpriced.

jrock65

I felt that the back seat room between the TL/G and the 3 was substantial. The next 3 supposedly addresses this issue. Hopefully it will do so without any compromise in handling.

kahunah

"The more apt comparison would be 5-series BMW or Audi A6, both of which are seriously overpriced."

A-men to that brother!

kahunah

"I wonder how folks survived in the olden days when almost all cars were RWD and nobody had traction control or snow tires."

In the olden days, the cars weighed 5,000 lbs.

kdshapiro

"Is that what you think it takes to out maneuver a TL in snow -- an overpriced, overweight, underpowered RWD Mercedes with winter tires? LOL "

Correct an overpriced S500. However, I believe that comment applies to the 3 or G as well.

iwantonetoo

I've been driving in New England winters for almost 30 years and have never owned a FWD car. I know it's hard for some people to believe, but it really is possible. A good set of snow tires and learning how your car handles can go a long way. And this is not a knock on FWD, but simply to point out that at one time there was no FWD and people got thru winters just fine.

dhanley

Hm, that hits a bit close to home, and probably accounts for a lot of the difference of opinion. I sit really vertically, and i don't fit right in a lot of cars. The old TL was included in this category of cars that are downright uncomfortable for me. The RSX and integra would have sent me for weekly chiropractor visits. A friend with a honda accord coupe giggles when he takes me for rides, becuase i look so uncomfortable. But the 3-series sedan is fine for me, while the coupe is not. Best car i ever sat in for me was my old 900, though. Lots of space above the noggin even with sunroof installed. The new 9-3 is not quite as "square" inside, which is too bad, but it still has lots of space AROUND the head. That would have been the best car ever if it had been in the shop ( a lot ) less. So, unless the TL has a lot more headroom than the old one, it might be the cramped overpriced one for me--not that anyone else might care.

Don't get me started on seats designed for people with narrow shoulders, bad posture, and big butts! Ugh!

I don't get how issues such as "midsize" and "compact" are decided. The g35 is described as a compact, but it's got more interior cubic footage than the TL and the front is larger. And, having sat in the back of the g35, it's not exactly tiny.

dave

mariner7

"What basis do you have for saying M will clean out RL's clock?"

1. G cleaning out TL's clock! Altima cleaning out Accord's clock, while we're on subject.

2. RL has the same illustrous heritage: Odyssey/Pilot/Accord.

Can anyone venture why TL does so badly in 100-0 braking? It came pretty close to 9-3 and CTS in 60mph braking. But in 100 mph, it takes 20-30 feet longer than those two, and 50 ft longer than stupendous G35.

MT says that's equivalent to lengths of five Devilles. Look on the
bright side: during that lengthy distance and time, you can get through most of the Lord's Prayer.

Don't care about CA? It's only the largest, wealthiest, hippest state in the Union! It's one state no company can afford to do badly in.

merc1

You guys never fail to provide some of the best reading on all of edmunds, such witty writing.

M

kdshapiro

"Not that driving in snow matters for this category, but I think you wrong."

It depends, one of my neighboors has a 4X4 pickup with appropriate tires and a steep driveway. His pickup was at the bottom of the driveway a few times this winter. A lot of the FWD cars spun and spun before they made it up some of the more inclined driveways in the neighborhood.

Two winters ago an Accord was trying to get onto the main street up a hill out of the development. The Accord just couldn't make it up. Finally backed down the hill and went around another way. I made it up the hill albiet with a little help from DSC. The Accord was not much older than my car and the tires looked okay to me.

While I generally believe a FWD with all-seasons will do better in the snow than a RWD with all-seasons, the sweeping generalization that FWD is better in the snow than RWD is just not true.

merc1

It has been my experience that it comes down to skill more than anything else, that and common sense. Avoid snow drifts, hills etc when you can if you're in a rwd car, but this doesn't mean fwd cars are invincible either, especilly in the hands of person that thinks a fwd car can go anywhere. I too have seen all types of vehicles (rwd, fwd, awd) get stuck, usually due to people trying to execute silly manuvers in deep snow like they don't have to make any type of adjustment to their driving style due to the type of car they're driving.

M

qbrozen

the new TL does have much more room for the driver than the old. I couldn't fit in the old one either (unless I tilted the seat so far back that I could barely reach the steering wheel). But I just fit in the new one perfectly (well, maybe about another quarter inch of seat travel would at least give me the choice of more than one seating position, but its fine as is).

dhanley

"Can anyone venture why TL does so badly in 100-0 braking? It came pretty close to 9-3 and CTS in 60mph braking. But in 100 mph, it takes 20-30 feet longer than those two, and 50 ft longer than stupendous G35."

Weight distribution

TL : 61% front 39% rear
CTS : 54/46
9-3 : 53/47 ( i was surprised too )
g35 : 52/48

Pretty much what you'd expect, really. With 61% already in front, it would be more like 80% during hard braking, and the rotors are probably aleady hot hauling the car down from 60.

mariner7

Very plausible. But just to be sure, I'd like to check braking and weight distribution of Accord, Maxima and Altima.

If that's the problem, why did Honda make such a front heavy car? Honda used to mean meticulous engineering!

merc, thanks for the compliment, but TL fans don't see the humor anywhere, I can tell you that! But I'm ready for their onslaught.

wco81

That is an statement that perhaps needs to be modified to: "A 330i equipped with every available option is $45K." I never buy any vehicle with EVERY available option. With the exception of buying Japanese cars without the choice of options, no person I know of buys a car with every available option. Even those that opt for the extremely high-end cars.

Now we all recognize there is a different value scale between Japanese and German vehicles.

I came to the $45k estimate based on the web site of BMW of Mountain View from Autonation (linked from Edmunds). Most of their 330 inventory was $43 or 44k. A lot of it was coupes but still.

If you add things like the premium package, nav system, leather, xenons, 17" wheels and the sport package which increases HP to 235, you get to about $45k

That is about 10k more than a TL NAV isn't it?

dhanley

I don't think honda set out to make a nose-heavy car. I think it probably would have cost a few thousand extra to engineer in weight distribution, and they felt ( quite possibly correctly ) that most people would be more enticed to buy based on lower sticker price, or more features, than shifting weight around. On a car like the NSX or the S2000, where performance is paramount, they do distribute the weight. Heck, a lot of sporty car owners never drive aggressively. I made an lexus salesman nearly wet his pants with how i test drove the is300, and i didn't think i was doing anything special.

dave

exalteddragon1

is 50/50 dist. At least that's what they were saying in 2003. Is the new engine heavier?

dhanley

I got the info from a few official sources, such as
http://www.capitalpontiac.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/cadillac/- - cts/cts_details.html

I bet the 3.2L is 50/50 and the 3.6L is a bit heavier, not by an amount anyone should lose any sleep over.

dave

shipo

The reason for the nose heavy bias seems kind of obvious to me; a powerful V6 and a beefy transaxle all packaged in the nose of the car. Where's the mystery?

That the only other FWD car in the above list had nearly the balance typical of RWD cars seems to be the result of the much smaller physical size of the mill and greater attention to detail. I too am pleasantly surprised at the Front/Rear balance of the 9-3.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gordonwd

I wonder how folks survived in the olden days when almost all cars were RWD and nobody had traction control or snow tires.

Actually, in the olden days of RWD and bias-ply tires, almost everyone DID have snow tires. It wasn't until radial tires and FWD became common that people started assuming that they could get through a winter without snow tires (at least in Michigan). I had studded snow tires on my '69 GTO or I would have been pretty helpless in a typical winter around here.

kdshapiro

My 3L was about 40K msrp with the these options. Now I recognize the price went up but not by thousands.

1. premium
2. step
3 HK upgrade
4. cold weather package
5. I might have missed one or two...

That's everything I want in a car anyway. Nav to me is the biggest waste of money I am researching a Garmin. No sport either, the roads around here have craters as big as the moon.

blueguydotcom

you add things like the premium package, nav system, leather, xenons, 17" wheels and the sport package which increases HP to 235, you get to about $45k

Um, the Performance Package increases horsepower to 235 and you get 18 inch rims with it.

My Perf ZHP with leather and xenons - no navi as that's the most useless thing since the fanny pack - had a sticker of 43k. I paid a few hundred below 40k for it.

qbrozen

folks also put chains on their tires.

don't see that anymore, either.