Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

speedracer3

I don't care for American car's either. Save for either the Dodge Viper or maybe the Fort GT, there is no American car I aspire to own. I think it's just a matter of taste, like flavors of ice cream. I think you are taking Blue's dislike for American cars too personally.

alibajalajaula

riez

I can honestly say I don't care where my car comes from or what marque it is. If it is affordable and fun to drive, that is all that counts. Smiles on my face. Couldn't care what my neighbors think. And I've owned a ton of different cars.

I love European and Japanese cars. Traded in my two BMWs for two Lexus. But before that I had owned two Infiniti. And the very first car I bought was an '85 Jetta.

And I don't short Detroit. I loved my '96 Impala SS! And my '00 Lincoln LS V8 Sport, my '97 Camaro (V6 5-speed manual with Perf/Hand Pkg, LSD, etc.), my '95 Plymouth Neon (5-speed manual), and my '93 Chrysler Concorde (Perf/Hand Pkg).

I love my current '00 Hyundai Sonata (V6, 5-speed manual w/ABS-TC), which I use for commuting and short work trips. After 50,000 miles, reliable as a top!

Heck, I even loved my '89 Metro, '91 Swift, '92 Tracer (wagon). [I was poor.]

But then if you LOVE to drive and drive a LOT almost any car can be fun--as long as it meets your needs and circumstances.

alibajalajaula

Cookie jar still not full. Blueguy: what's your theory about this? Will a would be Imola Red ZHP be more in the crosshairs of a troopers's radar, than any other, silver gray or titanium gray?
Incidentally, what's your ZHP color?

blueguydotcom

So why exactly should we believe anything you post about them?

What do you mean by believe? We're writing opinions in here. There's nothing to believe. When I use "facts" I cite them, otherwise it's all subjective.

You like the CTS-V. Isn't that good enough? I accept people dislike BMW for various reasons - some I think are right on, others that raise my eyebrow.

Wouldn't the world be boring if we all agreed? Good grief, we'd drive Accords, eat at places like Outback Steakhouse and watch only films by Tom Hanks.

blueguydotcom

Man, I have no idea if that holds true about red cars. Talk to people with red cars?

I have the silver-gray. http://blue-guy.com/images/Front_Right.jpg

95gt

"If the diff is only a few bucks, why wouldn't you? "

This discussion is about entry level luxury/sport sedans. The CTS-V starts at 50k that is a little bit above the 30k cars we are discussing. Can't really discuss what ifs about points and discounts because that varies way too much from person to person.

If they were just a couple hundred bucks different as almost all the cars we are discussing are, then heck yeah i would probably line up for one (if i could get over the exterior that is). Just because it is based on a entry level car does not mean it should be compared to these other cars

chrisboth

I have platinum and the NC trooper nor his laser last sunday could care less what color my G was..

eaton53

"I think you are taking Blue's dislike for American cars too personally."

I don't think so... but it's nice to see you don't completely dismiss domestics for no good reason.

I'd never make the mistake of dismissing anyone. You never know when and where something good is going to come from.

eaton53

"This discussion is about entry level luxury/sport sedans. The CTS-V starts at 50k that is a little bit above the 30k cars we are discussing."

Wasn't there just a discussion of a $43K BMW and $42K Acura in here?

95gt

Main discussion is about the normal cars. Most will not be going for these special editions. Plus 7-8k is still 20% more for a caddy V

speedracer3

Sounds like it's time for a good radar detector.

designman

Recommendations?

chrisboth

Got the Valentine one but laser is still tough to see ahead of time - i think its instant on and it has to be on you to detect. the only time my V-1 went off for laser and I had time to slow down i was right behind another guy that got tagged and there was about 3 seconds to spare.

On the same trip this weekend the guy in front of me was tagged - got nailed and I never heard a blip...Laser is bad and more departments are spending the $...

speedracer3

The Best: (if you don't mind paying $300+)

Valentine One

The Rest:

I have a Cobra (forgot the model)...does the job. Havent gotten a ticket since. cost around $40.

speedracer3

Yeap, with laser, you gotta hope that somebody is getting clocked before you are so your detector can pick it up...if you are ahead of the pack and can't see the trooper, you are toast.

pat

Eaton53, you ARE taking blueguydotcom's distaste for American cars too personally. As he said, it is just his opinion - he's not trying to convince you that he's right. You and he just see things differently.

Take it easy, okay?

blueguydotcom

Valentine...I'm always so tempted to spring for one as I drive 90 miles a day to and from work.

I just blew $500 bucks on new rear tires so right now I'm not real enthused about spending more for a car...

chrisboth

I hear the jammers are the way to go. The V-1 is great for all that is available in a detector now. That still means laser kills us in our speedy sedans

kdshapiro

Forget the fancy equipment. Watch out for the two lines on the pavement.

blueguydotcom

Forget the fancy equipment. Watch out for the two lines on the pavement.

Huh? Two lines on the pavement?

You want real fancy equipment: one of those infrared light changers. I could never use one - I'd feel too guilty if it ever got anyone hurt - but I've heard they're crazy. It makes driving surface streets a breeze.

kennyg5

I know this seems out of place and I do apologize to everyone and the Host if it is. I raise the comparative reliability issue here because this thread compares near luxury sedans made by Germany (BMW, MB and Audi), Japan (G35 and TL) and the U.S. (Cadillac). In any event, I can't seem to locate an appropriate thread which discusses this, and so here I go ...

As most of you may be aware, the April issue of Consumer Report states that U.S. made cars are more reliable than German made cars, but are not yet equal to those made by the Japanese. What do the German car lovers have to say about this? Could CR possibly be bowing to political pressure in upgrading the reliability of domestic cars to promote their sales in an effort to jump start the U.S. economy and the long slump in domestic car sales? Is it really true that American made cars now are more reliable than the (venerable?) German counterparts? Is the Cady better than the BMW and MB? I know Cady probably could beat Audi in terms of reliabilty :-)

blueguydotcom

What do the German car lovers have to say about this? Could CR possibly be bowing to political pressure in upgrading the reliability of domestic cars to promote their sales in an effort to jump start the U.S. economy and the long slump in domestic car sales? Is it really true that American made cars now are more reliable than the (venerable?) German counterparts? Is the Cady better than the BMW and MB? I know Cady probably could beat Audi in terms of reliabilty :-)



I don't think CR is fudging and I wouldn't be shocked if American cars are more reliable than German makes. Remember MB's reliability has slipped massively since they merged with Chrysler. VW's consistently ranked down around the Korean brands. BMW's plagued by electrical problems - all their stupid gadgets on the 5 and 7 only serve to drag down the company's reliability scores.

My bro-in-law's 745i is a fun car to drive but all that junk is bound to go wrong. He asked me if I'd want his 7 in 2006 and I laughed because the upkeep on the rolling super computer would be more expensive than just about any other car around.

merc1

"Isn't the CTS and its variants a "Near Luxury Performance Sedan?" "

Yes the CTS is a near luxury performance sedan, but the CTS-V isn't. Neither is the C32, S4 or M5. It's so easy to bring up a car that will easily beat the rest just to bang on the GM drum.

The CTS in it's basic form can't do squat with the 330i or G35, and now TL.

"Power's got 'em a lot worse than that... almost all of the Germans are now under the below
average line, some close to bottom feeders."

Thats more of the same survey harping that seems to have infected this board, you like others believe that GM cars are all around better now because they have less problems, forget all other aspects about the vehicle...."hey they don't break down as often anymore". Whatever.

No there is no excuse for Chrysler quality problems, but to sit there and say it's because of the Daimler side of the house is beyond ridiculous when they've had the problem for years. I supposed GM has done right by Saab too right?

Always skewing the facts to fit the current theme, that is the GM fans way. One minute we'll read how the CTS-V is so hot that it sells for sticker, and then the next its being bought for 45K.

M

kahunah

Ah...no. CR bows to no one. When they say the CTS's "first-year reliability has been poor", I believe them.

jrock65

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FO- LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=402631&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- bmUID=1078916491036

Pretty surprising. Infiniti ranked number one over Lexus in the 2001 and 1999 cars category, the latter by a significant amount.

Off-topic, but also notable is Hyundai reliability improving a great deal. Wouldn't be surprised if their reliability rivals the Japanese Big 3 in a few more years.

Mercedes languishing in the back as usual. Sooner or later it's going to catch up to them, and people will really start equating their cars with poor reliability, if not already. They can only rest on the three-pointed star for so long.

qbrozen

The reason we shouldn't raise the discussion to the level of a $50K car is because then someone else will come along and say "here is this funmobile at only $55K" and then the next person says "hey, this one is only $60K" and so on and so on until we really are reduced to comparing the M5 to the IS300. So the line needs to be somewhere. Yes, the TL and 330 can be optioned out above $40K, but they start far below that, as already pointed out.

kahunah

...both Pontiac and Buick have made significant gains on the reliability scale, whereas Lincoln and Cadillac move in the opposite direction, as with BMW.

victord1

it's also interesting to see how BMW rises up from below average in the new car category (2003) to above average in the used car categories (2001 & 1999). Or maybe it's in the same spot, but the other makes are falling :-)

chrisboth

Infiniti and Lexus are thw two top IMO for reliability. I pay to own and when I plunk down 35 large I'd like to at least have the opportunity to own the car for 7 years and then decide if it's fun and reliable enough to keep for a second car. What are the odds of that happening with the Chevy 9-3 Vector or the BMW 3 series or the A-4 or the Caddy. With Infiniti I honestly believe I may have a shot of going 10 years. Thats 5 years of no payment! Or one hell of an upgrade in 5-7.

Only the Lexus and TL would cross my mind as possible long term ownership possibities.

If you there was a million dollar cannonball run across the US what car would you want from this category? I'd take a G or Hummer!

edit...Of course the NIssan Crank sensor recall had better be checked or you may get stranded....(didn't affect my car in reality)

qbrozen

If you don't like current american offerings for their styling and performance, then that is obviously a valid reason not to buy any.

BUT, you did say that you will NEVER buy one no matter what they produce. That really doesn't support your reasons. Because they may produce something that you find appealing in every way possible, but, according to you, you still won't buy one just because of its nameplate. That's very shallow of you, but, hey, whatever floats your boat. But just as long as you realize you are being completely superficial and don't kid yourself that you are boycotting it for any other reason.

Don't get me wrong, I also avoid the americans at this point in time (although we were very close to buying a Trailblazer last year). But I am always open to their new offerings and would love to see them back in the game with something exciting and reliable.

kahunah

I'd take a G or Hummer!

G? sure. Hummer? Not a chance. Reliability issues still plague this beast (H2 is worse), not to mention that you would have to be escorted by a fuel tanker. I'll take my chances in a Toyota Land Cruiser, thank you very much.

chrisboth

Good choice but not fast enough. The best cannonball was done in like 36 hours. You have to have a sports car or superfast sedan or a police car or ambulance or something stealty.

The Real cannonballers with cars and trucks alike usually used additional fule storage tanks. The G puts the stock tank under the rear seat so there could be a modification that allowed for more storage....hmmm. Also the intake plenum upgrade I did got me to about 28 mpg on the hiway. Great mod

PS the cars that have won cannoballs include a caddy so the sedan thing is a good possibility in our little hypothetical.

If the ran one today you'd spend 100k to mod the car. Strip all chrome, install laser jammers and radio equipment - gps - fuel storage (waste too). Engine mods and lighting and suspension...jeez it could never happen again

merc1

I for one can't believe that the Hummer H2 that uses mainly proven off-the-shelf GM truck parts is so unreliable. Does anyone have any specifics as to what is so unreliable about this truck or are you all making big assumptions? Is is this 6000lb truck being knocked in a reliability survey again because of it's fuel economy (like last year) or are their some real problems with it this time around?

M

kahunah

In that case, I'll take a Porsche Cayenne. :-)

kahunah

CR reports that "first-year reliability is poor". And, you just answered your own question by stating that the Hummer H2 uses mainly off-the-shelf GM truck parts. Nuff said.

BTW, fuel economy is not one of the categories CR uses to rate these vehicles on reliability.

merc1

But what I'm trying to find out is what is so problematic with the H2? Any specifics?

You're right it was JDP that knocked the H2 for fuel economy. Forgive me I'm not a survey clutcher so I get them mixed up at times. I couldn't remember which sermon on and/or which day I heard it.

M

kahunah

Here's just one of many examples you'll find on the Net.

http://www.hummerlemon.com/pictures2.htm

blueguydotcom

you still won't buy one just because of its nameplate. That's very shallow of you, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.

It is. I'm a total bigot when it comes to American cars. Shrug. We all have our failings.

But just as long as you realize you are being completely superficial and don't kid yourself that you are boycotting it for any other reason.

One reason: I want them to go out of business.

But I am always open to their new offerings and would love to see them back in the game with something exciting and reliable.

That's where you and I part ways. I'm open to new things and if they make a great car I'd admit to it. But, the big caveat, I'd prefer if they just disappeared like AMC.

qbrozen

AMC didn't disappear. they just got absorbed by chrysler. And the Cherokee is still being made and sold to this day, so I think they deserve some credit for what they developed. OK, granted, I would never buy a cherokee made these days... but that's beside the point.

prattster

What was that AMC bubble car they made called again? Boy was that a piece!

kahunah

http://www.amcpacer.com/

gpwatfrd

I must say that when it comes to reliability, I would have to look at lexus.
                    
I am not the type of person that will stay loyal to one car manufacturer. I am always open to new or improved models from different Companies. There have been various types of vehicles that have been driven by either my wife and I or my parents over the last 10yrs ( CLK430,LS400,RX300,ES300,Thunderbird,Firebird, Grand am,Audi A6,G35coupe)

Best in terms of Quality and Reliability = LS400

This car was driven hard for about 70K and there were no mechanical problems and no rattles or squeaking noises like what came with my CLK430,G35coupe
 
Another endorsement for Lexus... The RX300 has 186,000 miles with no major problems other than routine Maintenance

Lets take a look at some of the others...

89 Firebird purchased used. I had several expensive problems until I finally sold the money pit and used the proceeds for a down payment on my wife's wedding ring. I guess the wife won that battle.

94 thunderbird...What can I say other than CRAP! It died at 76K. Too many problems to list.

CLK430 had it's share of rattles and fuse shortages. It was handed in with 80K and a transmission problem. Thank God it was a lease.

G35coupe It only has 8K but the minor squeaks from different areas in the car can be annoying at times. I am very happy with the car but we just did not have these issues with any of the lexus vehicles listed above.

Audi A6.. Let me state the positive first. It handled very well in the snow. Better than any other vehicle I have driven including the RX300. Unfortunately the car is the definition of what a Lemon is. Can anyone say Fuse Out! The same fuse went out 3 times. The car also failed to start on atleast 3-4 occasions. The first happened at a funeral. What timing! The list goes on but I think my point is made...

Yes, I agree if you want a sport sedan you should look somewhere else other than Lexus but when it comes to well made reliable cars, I would have to give lexus 1st.

Last place would have be a tie between Audi and Ford for me.

iwantonetoo

"One reason: I want them to go out of business."

Brilliant. And that would have a positive effect on the economy, wouldn't it? Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen to your company/business. That wouldn't be so good if you lost your job, but if the largest employers in the country went under, you'd be happy. American money is pretty good though, isn't it?

blueguydotcom

NMP = not my problem.

Lay off the politics, okay? This is a car forum.

speedracer3

Everybody's got a theory. Some WWII veterans would not buy anything German or Japanese...that's their perrogative, albeit I probably understand a war veteran's reasoning better than Blue's.

iwantonetoo

Just a bit of common sense. As long as things are going your way, then it's not your probem, and that's good for you. But you do like the American dollar and the freedom of choice.
         My apologies to the group for interjecting my nonsense into the discussion. Nothing personal, I just have strong feelings about the subject matter, and it has nothing to do with " buy American".

riez

If "Detroit" went, what would that mean for Ford of Europe, Ford of Australia, Opel, Holden, Saab, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo and other wholly-owned international subsidiaries of Ford and GM, not to mention their partially owned-companies like Mazda, Suzuki, Isuzu, etc? Perish the thought. But I may be different. I was a huge fan of the recent Merkur coupe & sedan (Ford of Europe) and Capri convertible (Ford of Australia) flops as well as someone who loved the old Opel Manta and Mercury Capri from the 1970s!

I just pray buyers in all those overseas markets aren't so hostile to "foreign" US companies that have been on their soil for say 50-80 years. (Thinking in Europe Ford and GM go back to around 1930. Ford was a huge player in Japan before WW II.)

chrisboth

As long as as car companies in this country earn less return on capital than a CD then perhaps it would help the economy for said capital to be put to use in a higher earning return investment....all these arguments can be offset and counterargued. It ends with a job outsourcing discussion and ultimately protectionism discussion every time...AVOID IT.

Blueguy doesn't want auto employees to lose thier jobs, he wants them to simply know that he wont be buying from them and perhaps he like many will never consider a car from this country. After a 1982 buick regal i have tended to agree and take my money to germany and japan. Perhaps the Big 3 employess should avoid the inevitable and try some community college courses. Anti american car sentimnent from americans is rampant, un-ereasable and justified in many cases.

buddhabman

Chris - "Blueguy doesn't want auto employees to lose thier jobs, he wants them to simply know that he wont be buying from them and perhaps he like many will never consdider a car from this country." He might not intend the consequences of his statements, but what he wrote is quite different.

The line was crossed for appropriate car discussions.

Lets get back on topic. The CTS- V will whoop on an A6 2.7, S4, BMW 545, S60 R and several others in this relative size and price range. ;-)