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Yeah, S. Florida drivers are truly a rare breed. I am surprised how some of these people get their driver's licenses.
Blue,
Talk about attention. When I had my Maxima SE everybody wanted to race me at every other stop light. That's the wrong attention. Although every once in a while I'd open it up to show that the VQ is no slouch (what a great engine). I am pretty much left alone with my A4, because they are also becoming very common around here.
I must admit I've never seen the FX or Murano interior in person so I can't comment on their quality, but I was referring to the common styling theme that Nissan is following right now. Overall, it's not where I would want to spend much time.
I like BMW's so much (pre-Bangle) because their design/styling is purposeful. They look and feel the way they do because it's the most efficient way for the car to go about it's business...no unecessary scoops, curves, grooves, etc.
As for my TSX...I'm loving it. Now that it's got some miles on the clock, the engine has really opened up and it breathes like a sprinter. I swear if it didn't have a fuel cut-off at 7500, it would zing up to 10,000 without a problem! The cold temperatures also make a big difference with that big I-4! I love downshifting to 3rd behind slow-moving traffic, and sling-shotting out and around. This car has some serious midrange grunt...no need for 4 cyl apologies here.
I'm taking my TSX to another BMW CCA track event later this month. Hopefully, I can grind down those all-season Michelins enough to justify some new shoes (Yoko's?) before the summer.
It took a little getting used to the drive-by-wire throttle, but I've finally got heel-and-toe down in the TSX, and it is so sweet! And yes, it does have that gorgeous interior and slick 6-speed that I never grow tired of. I sometimes regret not biting the bullet and getting the BMW, not so much for it's driving experience, since the TSX satisfies very nicely. It's just that I originally wanted something different (non-Japanese), and my smarter side ruled against it. You know, what I really want is a cherry, 1989 325is to play with (sport suspension, BBS rims...oohhh). It really is the best sport sedan BMW ever made (or at least, my favorite) and I'd buy one tomorrow if it crossed my path!
Like you, my sport sedan only comes out on weekends, so it is much more fun to drive because every drive "feels like the first time."
I must tell you though, we got a new Volvo V70 for munchkins in January and I really enjoy driving it! Smooth ride, Barkalounger seats, and it just looks cool!
Regards,
Brian
As a friend pointed out one day, I even refer to the BMW as "my car" and the other car (the one I own) I call the commuter or by its name. It's the redheaded stepchild in my automotive family.
BTW, I'm not an SUV guy but golly that Armada's insane. I sat in one at a dealer and I felt like I was in a leather-lined bus.
I felt the same way when I checkout out the Lincoln Blackwood edition. Talk about $56K worth of stigma. Speaking of stigma I don't understand why we let ourselves be influenced by the sometimes ridiculous opinions of others. That's all that "stigma" is. A negative overreaction to the negative opinions of others.
To most people, both cars are about equal overall, except for $2,000-$4,000 differences in prices, w/incentives on the Max.
Now I haven't test-driven the '04 TL yet, but I assume that the new smaller size and slightly more powerful engine would increase its performance/handling potentials even further. I tested the '04 Max the first day it arrived in the dealer and noticed that while the engine was even smoother/quieter than the '03 and the drive had been improved with the new rear ind. suspension set-up, the car's bigger size reduced the handling part to just marginally better than the '03. And don't even get me started with the new interior.......what the heck were they thinking?!?!
When the new '06 BMW 3series come out in late '05, I'll probably trade in the Max for the "older" version '05 3's. Personally I think the current 3series has the best overall exterior look (especially in titanium silver) and the size is just about right for me--yes, I've grown tired of the bigger Max. Now if I can only get pass the BMW reliability issues......oh well, then there's always a TL :-)
Surprisingly, the hot SUV, to my eyes, is the Murano. It's starting to compete with RX, MDX and Volvo in burbs. Well, not too surprising, it got more style than any of the others.
I strongly suggest checking out the '04 TL. I did try the previous gen TLs and, while I liked it, I found it rather boring. The new one is a HUGE improvement.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Sedans are bloated across all automotive brands... grotesque features... no attention to fine details. Rubenesque is in.
My advice to auto designers... have a salad.
;-)
I'm off (in the near future) to drive a G35x. On paper, looks like I can have 330 power for less than 325 price, at a higher level of equipment (cd changer, leather, and still less than the 325). Recent years' reliability looks comparable.
Nothing else looks close to these two to me (Audi has some reliability issues, I think. No Volvo dealer nearby, and not so sporting,...)
AWD is a must have.
Thoughts? Tim
I also think Evo and IS Sport Cross are sexy.
But to me the real lookers are the sports cars... 911 Coupe and Targa, Boxster, Miata, S2000, 350Z Coupe and Roadster. I think the new Vette is an improvement but it can't seem to shed that big truncated butt. Z4 should be used as prop for C-grade monster movies such as The Blob.
When previous TL came out as a concept, I was very impressed by its look. A relative of mine was looking for a car. I recommended the car to him, he bought the car before it came out as production. By the end of its cycle, I couldn't stand the sight of that car, to me the design aged really badly.
For someone who's looking for a family sedan with room and power to spare, the Max is an excellent choice. However, for a single guy like me who likes corners and twisties, a more agile and smaller sedan would be more preferable.
When it's time for my trade-up, the only cars I have in mind are the new TL , the G35/G35X, possibly the up-coming 250Hp AWD Subaru (for the AWD factor), and the 3series as the most favorite. I like almost everything about the car, except reliability.....sorry, didn't mean to sound like a broken record :-)
TL has subtle details but is too wedgy and chunky in the rear. Accordingly the shape is a bit unbalanced. And that swathe running just beneath the beltline looks like an afterthought... incongruous. I'd bet they added that near the deadline after thinking the car looked too vertical... to give the impression of less height. The wedge works better with smaller cars like TSX and RSX. By the way, on the Acura website, they do a great job of reducing the chunky rear with lighting notice how dark the bumper is in all shots. But when it comes out into real available light, the butt is very large. I’m sure the TL is going to be a winner, but I think it would have been dead-nuts perfect by reducing the angle of the wedge a bit. The wedge may say sport, but it does not say elegance larger sedans have to keep it to a minimum.
Not totally happy, but I’ll take either one of these cars on looks for the most part there is harmony and order to the details and lines no unnecessary topography. They sure do beat the Bangle bimmers.
The new bangle designs also feature too many flat surfaces. Bangle seems to model everything after mushy ice cream that was refrozen. Weird angles, nothing solid and exceptionally bland.
"...mushy ice cream that was refrozen."
Good description. Bangle calls it "flamed surfaces".
http://www.supercars.net/SDBQ?id=2920
In my opinion the tail pipes make the E39 M5 and AMGs look good. Not so with E60. They make it look even dorkier.
I heard someone said that there will be a new TL with AWD.
If the interior is your major gripe about the G and if you can wait, you might consider waiting until the 2005 comes out. They're apparently redoing the interior.
Best of luck with your decision.
And isn't it really *nice* to have this kind of "problem" to deal with? :-)
Torrance, Calif. 03/02/2004 -- Continuing its record-breaking streak for the fourth consecutive month, Acura posted February sales of 15,155 vehicles, shattering the previous record of 13,677 set in February 2001 and ending the month up 33.8 percent compared to last year, the division announced today. Year-to-date Acura sales rose to 28,286, up 29.4 percent compared to last year.
The TL performance luxury sedan and MDX luxury SUV both set new February records. The TL, Acura's top selling vehicle for the past five months, sold 6,274 units and beat the existing record of 5,878 set in February 2001. Compared to the same month last year, TL sales increased 57.6 percent. The popular MDX set a new February record of 4,929 units, an increase of 9.2 percent versus a year ago.
"Demand for the new TL sedan is stronger than ever," said Dick Colliver, executive vice president, sales. "The all-new car is doing an excellent job of attracting new buyers to Acura."
The hot-selling TSX sports sedan also continues to perform above forecast with sales of 1,959 units.
I hope that's a misprint and they meant 30 front, 70 rear. What sort of fool would want a performance sedan with 70% of the power going through the wrong wheels?
Maybe the same "fools" who are helping set sales records for FWD cars. Maybe you need to ask yourself what qualifies you to call anyone a fool based on your opinion of what constitutes a performance sedan. This board is full of posts with statistics on performance and handling of FWD, RWD and AWD and in the end there is very little actual difference in the objective facts. Most of the differences are opinions held by individuals who seem to lack respect for someone elses opinion. I drive a FWD performance sedan and I am no fool.
AWD would allow Acura to finally move away from that which keeps many buyers at bay. You seem enamored with sales numbers so maybe this would appeal to you: if Acura offers a performance sedan that finally drives like a performance sedan while also offering a drive system that meets the "safety" needs of the FWD buyers, Acura could increase sales. Suddenly, two camps now see value where before only one group of buyers would.
I have nothing against FWD buyers. I do have a problem with a manufacturer finally taking a step toward making a performance sedan by switching to AWD but then curtailing the vehicle's performance by keeping power going through the steering wheels.
AWD properly set up on a TL would get my business and probably that of many others. FWD on the TL will not. They could have 500 HP coming out of that car and it could cut through the slalom at 90 mph. I still wouldn't buy it as my primary fun car as it just doesn't cut it for me anymore.
Sales usually dictate changes. The RL has fallen way behind in the luxury class because it has not kept pace with the competition. The consumer has dictated that Acura make changes or get out of that market segment. Acura engineers have decided that a 70 - 30 split is what they want to do for their AWD. I guess they forgot to consult you prior to their decision but they seem to have an enviable track record making decision on their own.
It's all about choices and how those choices do or do not succeed in the marketplace. I don't think you can objectively prove that a given split is ideal for every AWD car.
As for FWD as long as it does the job, I am fine with it. It is one of the best handling(ranks 3rd) in C&D but overall it ranks first to most magazines. It is a lot better than Integra GSR. FWD doesnt make people unable to take a fast corner right, especially with LSD, VSA, TCS in TL. And I think with AWD, TL will be MORE unstoppable. The fact is even with FWD, the sales is unstoppable already. but thats just my opinion.
It's all about choices and how those choices do or do not succeed in the marketplace. I don't think you can objectively prove that a given split is ideal for every AWD car.
At this point, thankfully, it's all conjecture and there is no official confirmation that the RL will have a ridiculous 70/30 split.
And Subaru's pretty much proven a 30/70 split front/rear allows the WRX Sti to marry blistering acceleration with superb cornering as oversteer can finally be induced (something that was nigh impossible with the normal WRX).
doesnt make people unable to take a fast corner right, especially with LSD, VSA, TCS in TL. And I think with AWD, TL will be MORE unstoppable. The fact is even with FWD, the sales is unstoppable already. but thats just my opinion.
VSA and TCS are not good things to hardcore drivers. Gadgets like those keep you from getting into the real fun...4 wheel drifts for instance.
As for sales as an indicator of quality I point to McDonald's and Cameron's Titanic as shining examples that the most popular alternative isn't always the best.
Excellent post! Check out the Ford GT video. You'll love the powerslide. One thing for sure, you can't do that in a FWD!
That's the most illogical and ridiculous statement I've ever heard. We're talking about spending $35,000 (give or take) on a car, not $20 for a burger and a movie.
I do agree with danny that sales of $30k plus cars are a more relevant indicator of quality than say, burgers or movies.
True, the most popular alternative isn't always the best, but the thing is, there is no "best."
I don't think that you really have to worry about TL sales being so high that it'll push up the price. TL sales have been climbing month after month, but street prices have been coming down so that you can generally get a non-NAVI for about $31,000.
I'd expect a non-navi TL to go for about 1500-2k under sticker. To paying MSRP for an Acura? No way. I won't pay MSRP for anything.
Of course, low quality products from say, Ford or GM, can sell in high numbers, but there are other factors that go into sales, such as marketing, low prices and incentives, and customer loyalty. I would guarantee you that as crappy as some of the Ford or GM products are, if they made cars of Yugo quality, they wouldn't sell nearly as well.
A perfect example of this is Hyundai. When they first came out, they sold like hotcakes mainly because they were cheap. Then all sorts of problems with quality surfaced, and sales plummeted. Then Hyundai started to gradually increase the quality of its products, and sales are on the rise again.
But I agree with your general point that high sales don't automatically equate to high quality.
I am wondering where you made a leap from what was in my posts about sales to sales being related to quality ? Please point out where that was in my posts. You are inserting something that was not any part of what was being discussed.
I certainly hope Acura consults you prior to doing anything as stupid as deciding on their own what the best split is for their AWD. God forbid they would utilize their own engineering history and experience.
99.9 % of the general public buying and driving performance sedans will never drive their cars to anywhere near their limits. They will however probably drive in snow and rain and make their buying decisions based on those kinds of factors.
There are a small percentage of drivers who do enjoy driving their cars near the limit. They tend to gravitate towards sites such as these. That is not however a true reflection of the general buying public. It is why FWD cars still sell as well as they do and why AWD cars sell as well as they do.
Racers and enthusiasts choose RWD or AWD because they are going to push their cars to the limits and RWD is the best drive train for driving on the edge. I just don't believe the majority is driving close enough to the limit to really benefit. Automakers make cars for the majority because they have to stay in business. Those automakers who participate in racing use it as development and eventually pass on what they learn to their production models.
Near luxury performance sedans are not race cars. They are a little bit of luxury and a little bit of performance. Some lean more towards one than the other and we make our choices accordingly. $35K these days gives you some very nice choices and in the end I still think they are all very close in any comparison you do. I think the car I bought has excellent performance, safety, luxury and yes it has FWD.
It's not worth the risk to four wheel drift on the open road these days. It's roulette..John Law is waiting for you right around the corner.
The racetrack is the place to play.
I wouldn't say otherwise. Only that enthusiasts rarely gravitate toward FWD. AWD on a TL would open up sales to a group who won't touch the TL - people like me.
Racers and enthusiasts choose RWD or AWD because they are going to push their cars to the limits and RWD is the best drive train for driving on the edge. I just don't believe the majority is driving close enough to the limit to really benefit.
Again, it's who are they trying to appeal to? I've read on BMW boards and actually heard from my salesperson of people who bought the 330i Performance Package and then found it was too rough for their liking. BMW didn't make that package for everyone...my brother in law (owns a 325i) thinks my car is too fast, too loud and too rough. To each his own.
Automakers make cars for the majority because they have to stay in business. Those automakers who participate in racing use it as development and eventually pass on what they learn to their production models.
You're missing the point of you don't just want a wide market but also find ways to nail the smaller niche that will pay extra. I love the visual concept of the TL someone posted here...300 HP, 18s, etc. The car just needs the right drivetrain.
Near luxury performance sedans are not race cars. They are a little bit of luxury and a little bit of performance. Some lean more towards one than the other and we make our choices accordingly. $35K these days gives you some very nice choices and in the end I still think they are all very close in any comparison you do. I think the car I bought has excellent performance, safety, luxury and yes it has FWD.
It's important that we like what we buy. Hopefully Acura will offer something by 2006 that will get me to buy from them. I want to give Honda my money but I also want to like the car I drive. Give me a sweet honda tranny, at least 270 hp and AWD and I'll be a happy monkey.
It's not worth the risk to four wheel drift on the open road these days. It's roulette..John Law is waiting for you right around the corner.
The racetrack is the place to play.
Cops...argh. In San Diego the CHP has gone from annoying to fascist. Apparently the head [non-permissible content removed] in Sacramento said speeders are evil and instead of looking for real crime the cops should harass us. I've heard SD tickets have increased insane amounts over the past year. It's gone from 75 in a 65 is okay to 70 in a 65 might get you a nightstick-carrying, mustached goon breathing donuts particles on you.
Tracks...I wish. Unfortunately, when those events occur at Qualcomm I'd have to to endure BMWCCA types. I may break down one day and join up just to get access to the road courses but I don't like the idea of membership in any group with bylaws.
"Almost makes me forget about the BMW 3 Series. Almost. ... Overall the TL isn't quite as smooth or as refined as the mighty 3. It is close, though, really close."
Like all the other testers, they, too, complain about torque steer: "there is some torque steer if you really plant your foot into the throttle."
Ends by stating "I'd probably take the TL over an Audi A4."
Blueguy I think you misunderstood me between quality and affordability.
G35=basic price $28,5k
ES330=basic price $32,5k
TL=basic price $33,2k
330i=basic price $35,8k
Bigmac= $3
Although very few people choose basic model if not none.
The story of sales doesnt match if it is about affordability only. According to affordability factor, people would have bought more G35 then ES330 then TL then 330i. And they could only buy the very basic model. So affordability does very little in this sales story.
Then if it is about quality, then 330i(if you think 330i is the best) should have better sales between those car.
And again like Jrock meant, there is no single factor that dominate people's mind in choosing the car. Its a combination of both.
About McDonald, I prefer Burger King. I have to do some research first before I try to comment about burger. Not my field I guess lol.
About torque steer, I choose a car based on my purposes only.
How many time you plant your foot to the pedal when taking a corner? TL's cornering is not the best but one of the best IMO.
How many time you speed your car when driving in a highway? Many times lol
How much time do you spend inside your car?
How many time do you risk your car in a race track?
Do you care about resale value or not?
Do you care about gas consumption or not?
Do you care about your family or not? (are you selfish?) etc.