Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

chrisboth

Do it yourself and dont pay someone to make mods to your car or do them one at time.

Maybe some will want the body packages and the ASPEC buyers will be there for those who just want a newer looking or cooler looking car. All the performance stuff anyone can do anywhere without much help. The funnest thing of owning a G has been minor tweaks and little money that create small incrimental gains that I can notice and tweak. Do one and then do another down the road while appreciating each tweak on its own is my philosophy. I would suggest most of us would rather buy the car without a perf pack and make the mods ourselves. The ZHP is an exception as it offers some big changes to a luxo car to get it to be alot differet.

For 200 bucks I added 10-14 Hp with an intake. For another 120 I added no real gains with my Hyper Grounding Kit but added much smoothness and better responsiveness while eliminating the gurgle the intake created. For another 450 I bought a Crawford Z car intake plenum which adds 20hp. So for less than 1k I got about 20-25 HP at peak, increased the sound quality of the motor, get better gas mileage (4-5 mpg), have a smoother idle and start up and I don't have the HP drop at 6000.

If they offered a $6000 nismo package I' say no, do the perf mods myself and save $5000 on body kit bolt ons that will never work out as well as if bolted on at the plant in the first place.

Now I belive I am running Z power at the crank anyway - weight diff is about 150#. Anyone see the Z in the lastest C&D. They got a 13.8 1/4 running stock at 102 or so. Everytime they test the FM seems faster and faster! Break in alone is good for 20hp I'd bet with the VQ.

shipo

I am of two minds on this one. In most cases, I would be inclined to buy the base car and then tweak it myself, most likely after the manufacturers' warranty expired. That said, between the 325i and the 330i, and again between the 330i and the 330i ZHP, one would be hard pressed to match the full package of the more expensive car for the same money, to say nothing of having a factory warranty on the extra goodies. So, in the case of the 3-Series, I'd be more inclined to go with the factory upgrade.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

Another funny thing about the 330i to ZHP switch: it's really a crazy number of mods for only $2800 if one were to buy a 330i and get the sports package ($1200).

jrock65

Well, apparently the ZHP package is popular enough that they're putting it on the coupe and convertible as well.

I'm not sure why Infiniti is nixing Nismo, especially since they're going for the Japanese BMW image (everything RWD or AWD, handling a priority, etc.)

Most boy racer kids won't be able to afford it anyway.

shipo

Okay, fair enough, I hadn't considered that the difference between the 330i SP and the 330i ZHP was considerably less than just the cost of the ZHP. As such, I went through and configured the three as I would have ordered them.

325i, 5-Speed, Metallic Paint, Leather, PP, SP, Harmon Kardon: $36,595
330i, 6-Speed, Metallic Paint, PP, SP, Xenon: $41,570
330i, 6-Speed, Metallic Paint, ZHP, Leather, Moon Roof, Xenon: 43,470

So, in the "As I would buy it" configuration, the 330i comes at a $4,975 premium. Fairly substantial, however, IMHO, the considerable power gain, coupled with the 6-Speed transmission, bigger brakes, and bigger wheels and tires easily justify the price.

Then there is the 330i to 330i ZHP difference of only $1,900, a no-brainer on a car listing at over $40K.

Best Regards,
Shipo

speedracer3

Here's the quote from the April 2004 C&D

Things are getting complicated at Nismo, Nissan's motorsports and tuning arm. So, far, the U.S. distributor has been shipped more than 700 sets of high performance suspension, wheel, and exhaust packages for the 350Z. And ideally, the company would like to send the same sport goodies for the Infiniti G35 coupe (known as the Nissan Skyline coupe in Japan).Because, hey, this Nismo Skyline developed together with Sony's Gran Turismo people looks pretty damn good. The problem is that in the U.S. the car is an Infiniti, not a Nissan, as it is in Japan, and the U.S. marketing types feel that Nismo parts might not suit the upscale brand image.

riez

shipo... Your numbers point out the lack of value at the high end of the 3 Series. You're looking at $41,600 and $43,500 for 330i. That is just way too expensive. [With GM car rebates, financing deals, credit card rebates, etc. that CTS-V might be less out of pocket than your ZHP.] Think I'd rather have an 530i Sport manual with limited options or a CPO 540i6.

riez

Just looked over the Consumer Reports 2004 Annual Auto Issue. IS300 still a great deal. Great value (a ton of car for the money). Fantastic reliability--past, present and future. Outstanding safety assessment. Great car, new or used!

3 Series still lags in reliability. G35 better but not quite there. TL too new to tell.

blueguydotcom

That is just way too expensive. [With GM car rebates, financing deals, credit card rebates, etc. that CTS-V might be less out of pocket than your ZHP.] Think I'd rather have an 530i Sport manual with limited options or a CPO 540i6.

A. CTS = Caddy = I'd rather be dead than own a GM. seriously, they could offer a 600 hp engine in the best handling chassis ever and I will not own it. Or a Ford.

B. 530i 6 speed = big, and a sticker with sports package and xenon of 49k. That'd be 49k for a slower, less responsive, larger car.

C. 545i 6 speed = is it even out yet? = 59k without any options.

59k or 39k...hmm, that's an easy call. Yes, my car had a 43k msrp. Let's assume you can get 4k off a 545i so it'd still be 55k. 16k difference?

exalteddragon1

I dont know what you have against GM... but the CTS-V is just the best car in its class, period.

kahunah

"CTS-V is just the best car in its class, period."

The CTS has one of the worst reliability records in its class, so far. What makes you think the CTS-V will be any better? A lot of good 400 horses will do you when the car is sitting in a service bay. Any reasonable thinking person would think twice before plunking down 50 large for a car whose reliability record will never come close to Japanese standards.

Plus, on a personal note, I can't stand the look of it (inside or out).

blueguydotcom

dont know what you have against GM... but the CTS-V is just the best car in its class, period.

It's an American car for one. Secondly, it's a GM. From there I'd move on to the look at me Batman meets Legos exterior, and Sears-grade interior. I haven't driven the CTS-V yet but given the way the original CTS was a lumbering, wallowing boat I flat out do not believe any review written about it. The mags praised that trash heap when it hit the street and I gotta say handling wise it didn't hold a candle to any Japanese or German in the class. From the IS to the A4 on they all outclassed the CTS in handling.

Some day I'll drive one but even if it's the greatest driving vehicle I've been in (which I'll admit to) I won't buy one simply because it's a GM.

chrisboth

"A. CTS = Caddy = I'd rather be dead than own a GM. seriously, they could offer a 600 hp engine in the best handling chassis ever and I will not own it. Or a Ford."

The caddy is compelling but with chassis hopping launches and some quality issues it's not the m5 beater it could someday become. Angular is hard to take but bangle gives that to us now too..

I never gave two cruds about ford but the GT sure is unaffordably cool and the Shelby Cobra? Very interested to see what becomes of that. Hopefully NOT limited editioned and 40k premiumed. Too bad the 30-40 k cars from ford blow

eaton53

"I haven't driven the CTS-V yet but given the way the original CTS was a lumbering, wallowing boat I flat out do not believe any review written about it."

"Lumbering wallowing boat?" BWAHAHA!!! A sillier statement I have not read in some time.

So, have we driven a CTS for ourselves? I'm guessing not.

Here's the bottom line... the CTS-V will annhilate any one of these also rans. It's in a complete other world as a performance car. And I hope you didn't pay $43K for that weak BMW... you got screwed if you did.

"they could offer a 600 hp engine in the best handling chassis ever and I will not own it. Or a Ford."

A poseur if there ever was one.

riez

blueguydotcom... Not sure why you have such an animus against Detroit. I really don't care where a good car is built. I just try to buy affordable fun cars. The CTS-V appears to be a ton of car for the money.

You might not want to check out the latest CR. They pound MB, Audi, Jaguar, Land Rover, Mini, and VW for poor reliability. And they cite the A6 and 7 Series as repeat offenders. They list the 7 Series ('97-'99 and '00-'02) and X5 ('00-'02) as used cars to avoid.

The 3 Series now has average reliability. Which is an improvement(!), so they can now recommend it. Is that damning with faint praise?

But BMW can't hold a candle to Infiniti or Lexus.

Not sure why anyone would want a $40-43K 330i instead of an M3. They are too close in price to favor the loaded 330i.

eaton53

The Germans are spewing out far more unreliable crap than Detroit these days. And of the Big 2.5, the worst is Chrysler... we know who owns them.

"Not sure why you have such an animus against Detroit. I really don't care where a good car is built. I just try to buy affordable fun cars."

Absolutely.... sometimes I think my goal is to have owned one of everything before I'm through.

merc1

Amazing, now Chrysler is spewing about unreliable crap because of their connection with a German company, as if they never did before.

The Americans win 2 points over the Germans in CR and now the Germans are spewing out "far more" unreliable crap. Typical over stating of any and everything as usual of GM rhetoric.

Why are we even talking about the CTS-V here? Of course it will easily whip all these sedans at the track.

M

eaton53

"Why are we even talking about the CTS-V here? Of course it will easily whip all these sedans at the track."

Isn't the CTS and its variants a "Near Luxury Performance Sedan?"

"The Americans win 2 points over the Germans in CR and now the Germans are spewing out "far more" unreliable crap."

Power's got 'em a lot worse than that... almost all of the Germans are now under the below average line, some close to bottom feeders.

Sooo.... Is Chrysler spewing out crap before an excuse for them doing it now? DC's certainly had plenty of time to get them straightened out.

designman

Ah, we have quite a battle going on here. All I can say is remember 1980. I had little hope that the American hockey team would beat the Russians. But we were glued to the TV. I haven't had an American car since the 70s, but I've been clinging to that hope and am rooting hard. Fact is, Americans are showing signs.

GO GET 'EM RIEZ!

blueguydotcom

So, have we driven a CTS for ourselves? I'm guessing not.

I clearly wrote I have driven a CTS. A manual in fact. It was priced at nearly 40k and god it was awful. Every corner the front end would dip and the car would rock and undulate on entry and exit from said corner. I've not experienced a worse handling combatant in the near luxury segment. There isn't a German or Japanese competitor - including the ES - that should be worried. When the salesperson asked how I liked it, I straightforwardly told him the handling was insanely soft and not near the levels of refinement in German sport sedans. His intelligent rejoinder, "This is a Caddy." Yeah, some things never change.

Here's the bottom line... the CTS-V will annhilate any one of these also rans. It's in a complete other world as a performance car. And I hope you didn't pay $43K for that weak BMW... you got screwed if you did.

I never pay sticker. But then again, it shocks me people would pay 35k, let alone 40-45k for a Vette. To each his own. To me the Caddy is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

A poseur if there ever was one.

That makes no sense. I'm a poseur because I refuse to line the coffers of companies I want to go out of business? I'd say if I bought from Ford/GM I'd lose tremendous face as I have lobbied hard for them to go under. And will not go back on my word.

raher

I bought a new Dodge Durango in 1989. First American vehicle I have ever owned. It has 115,000 miles on it and I have not had a single problem. I know that is atypical but I think it shows that you can get a good or bad anything.
The 5.9 V8 has been great. The Chrysler V12 that has been at the auto shows looks very interesting.
I also own an 04 TL which my wife drives and I have always owned Acura passenger cars.
I think the numbers on quality in CR show that America is getting there. Many of the Japanese vehicles are made here also. I would always but American if I could but they are not there yet.

blueguydotcom

blueguydotcom... Not sure why you have such an animus against Detroit. I really don't care where a good car is built. I just try to buy affordable fun cars. The CTS-V appears to be a ton of car for the money.

To each his own. It's American. I will not put my money there.

You might not want to check out the latest CR. They pound MB, Audi, Jaguar, Land Rover, Mini, and VW for poor reliability. And they cite the A6 and 7 Series as repeat offenders. They list the 7 Series ('97-'99 and '00-'02) and X5 ('00-'02) as used cars to avoid.

With good reason. I never said Germans build reliable cars. Never.

The 3 Series now has average reliability. Which is an improvement(!), so they can now recommend it. Is that damning with faint praise?

I didn't buy my car for reliability and frankly knew going in my BMW would probably be troublesome (which it hasn't been). Didn't much care as I bought the car I felt the best driving.

But BMW can't hold a candle to Infiniti or Lexus.
For reliability, that's true. But that played no part in my buying decision. I've owned other German cars that were a nightmare. I'll keep coming back as they're just more entertaining.

Not sure why anyone would want a $40-43K 330i instead of an M3. They are too close in price to favor the loaded 330i.

1. M3 is a 2 door. I will not own a 2 door unless it's a convertible. If there were a 4 door M I'd buy it.

2. M3 with the bare essentials (Xenon and Moonroof) stickers at 50k. 50k for a car that's a design I don't like and doesn't offer the utility I desire? No thanks.

eaton53

"To each his own. It's American. I will not put my money there."

So blueguydotcom, I see you have an American flag next to your name. Are you an American?

speedracer3

I share Blueguydotcom's distate for American cars. I've owned GM product and I think it's the biggest piece of garbage made. German cars are quirky, but they are a lot more fun to drive than their American or Japanese counterparts.

Blue,

My question is, if your beloved Beemer starts giving you the same headaches that your VW gave you, would bad mouth BMW as much you do VW/Audi?. What would be next?...Mercedes?.

eaton53

Speedracer,
Blueguydotcom is nothing more than a poseur who will chase the prettiest foreign hood ornament.

He obviously doesn't really care about quality or performance, since he has clearly stated that he won't buy certain makes even if they are clearly superior in these areas.

I also don't believe he's ever been in a CTS, since his spew is completely contrary to every professional review.

"But then again, it shocks me people would pay 35k, let alone 40-45k for a Vette."

More reinforcement - Blueguydotcom doesn't really care about performance, only the hood ornament... he just doesn't get it.

blueguydotcom

My question is, if your beloved Beemer starts giving you the same headaches that your VW gave you, would bad mouth BMW as much you do VW/Audi?. What would be next?...Mercedes?.

I probably would never buy a Mercedes. As for BMW going bad, I've actually done my best to talk people out of buying BMWs. ask my bro-in-law. I took him out to look at cars one weekend and when I was positive he was going for the 325i I made it crystal clear that BMWs aren't very well made, have bad electricals and in my experience really bad transmissions. I did everything I could to scare him back toward Infiniti/Acura/Lexus. Didn't work as he bought a 325i.

Should my BMW go really bad - like my Jetta - it will confirm what I expect of it. So far it's been lightyears more reliable and troublefree than the Jetta though.

kahunah

According to Car & Driver's road test results the 400hp CTS-V will do 0-60 mph in 5.2 secs. but the 270hp TL (stock) will do it in 5.7 secs. There's at least 100 horses going to waste here. That to me is not performance just lousy engineering.

CTS-V @ 400hp

ACCELERATION: Seconds
Zero to 30 mph: 2.2
40 mph: 2.9
50 mph: 4.3
60 mph: 5.2
70 mph: 6.8
80 mph: 8.2
90 mph: 9.9
100 mph: 12.2
110 mph: 14.5
120 mph: 17.1
130 mph: 20.3
140 mph: 25.5
Street start, 5-60 mph: 5.7
Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph: 10.3
50-70 mph: 10.0
Standing 1/4-mile: 13.7 sec @ 107 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 163 mph

Stock TL @ 270hp

ACCELERATION: (Seconds)
Zero to 30 mph 2.2
 40 mph 3.3
 50 mph 4.4
 60 mph 5.7
 70 mph 7.6
 80 mph 9.4
 90 mph 11.9
 100 mph 14.6
 110 mph 17.8
 120 mph 21.8
 130 mph 28.6
Street start, 5-60 mph 6.3
Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph 10.4
 50-70 mph 10.3
Standing 1/4-mile 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (governor limited) 152 mph

You would think that with 130 more horses this Caddy would perform that much better than a stock TL...and for $8,000+ more...I think not.

speedracer3

Blue,

I am like your bro-in-law. Everybody told me to stay away from Audi, and got an A4 anyway, it is one of the best cars I've ever ownned. (knock on wood) have had no problems with it.

on the CTS...

Never driven it, I have nothing against it, except that IMO it is ugly as sin.

pat

be careful not to get personal, folks. Debate the cars all you want, but leave the personal slams for another place.

Thanks.

blueguydotcom

Blueguydotcom is nothing more than a poseur who will chase the prettiest foreign hood ornament.

That's funny. Pat generally doesn't roll with personal attacks. Lets leave it at I drove just about every car available before buying my vehicle and I bought entirely based on fitting my needs and desires - speed, handling, RWD, manual, free maintenance, 4 doors.

He obviously doesn't really care about quality or performance, since he has clearly stated that he won't buy certain makes even if they are clearly superior in these areas.

A. I don't care about quality. You're right. I've owned American, Japanese and German cars so obviously quality isn't the main consideration when buying.

B. Why is this a tough concept? If one has sworn to do something then one stands by it. I've sworn never to buy an American car. I either compromise my integrity break my word or I follow through. I choose to stand by my word: no cars with American nameplates.

I also don't believe he's ever been in a CTS, since his spew is completely contrary to every professional review.

May 3, 2002 at Marvin K Brown Cadillac, I took a CTS for a test drive consisting of surface streets and freeways:

blueguydotcom "Infiniti G35 vs. BMW 330i" May 4, 2002 2:48pm

The car was a mess, much like the dealership.

More reinforcement - Blueguydotcom doesn't really care about performance, only the hood ornament... he just doesn't get it.

If that were so, I'd have bought a Vette as isn't that the ultimate car for people want desperately to be noticed - beyond the Humm-me 2? Forgive me for not wanting a vehicle that cries, to me, middle aged, balding man with a penchant for gold chains.

eaton53

"According to Car & Driver's road test results the 400hp CTS-V will do 0-60 mph in 5.2 secs. but the 270hp TL (stock) will do it in 5.7 secs. There's at least 100 horses going to waste here. That to me is not performance just lousy engineering.'

You think a TL can take an M5 on the track? A CTS-V can. This ain't drag racing... go buy a muscle car with a stick axle if you want to do that.

chrisboth

Yeah the testers of the CTS-V had an overheated engine and admitted they couldn't launch the car hard. 0-60 is not where this car will shine. For 0-100 and 50-130 the CTS will make the Acura look like a Gremlin running on 5 cylinders. No tires in the world will get the CTS power to the ground for a clean 0-60 launch. 305's maybe. The CTS-V with all it's quirks and angles is possibly the best bang for buck out there and it eat's similary priced BMW's alive in germanys proving track.

If the CTS-V raced a TL it would need radar to find it again...

kdshapiro

"You think a TL can take an M5 on the track? A CTS-V can"

Correct, but so can an EVO for $20K less. So what? Actually, I'd like to see a race between an M5 and a CTS-V by professional drivers. That would be interesting, instead of comparing numbers on paper.

"The CTS-V with all it's quirks and angles is possibly the best bang for buck out there and it eat's similary priced BMW's alive in germanys proving track. "

Except it's a dead heat to 60 for the three series, which can get there in 5.6, except for the M3, which can get there in about 5. Seeing as how the V has over a hundred horse advantage to the 3 series, so what? Given the M5 has a half second advantage for the same hp, so what? I'm not dissing the V, but if all you want is speed and EVO for $20K less is the ticket. If all you are looking at is hp/$, the V is the ticket.

kahunah

I compared a 400hp car with a 270hp car. The performance differences should be major but THEY ARE NOT!!

From an engineering standpoint, the CTS-V is a dog and the CTS is a dog with fleas.

eaton53

"I compared a 400hp car with a 270hp car. The performance differences should be major but THEY ARE NOT!!"

Gee, have you put a TL on a track with a CTS-V? No one I know of has... let's throw out a few 0-60 numbers and make some silly assumptions.

"From an engineering standpoint, the CTS-V is a dog and the CTS is a dog with fleas."

What does that make the M5 then?

kahunah

95gt

I will agree with the person before that the CTS-V has no place in these discussions. It is a sports sedan with a little luxury thrown in and is priced a good deal over all the others discussed here. M3 has no place in this discussion either. Most people are not cross shopping these cars.

speedracer3

How many average Joe car buyers get to use their cars on the track??. 0-60 times...with the traffic the way it is I'd be lucky if I can make it from 0-20 mph without slamming on the brakes. Unless you are street racing, the .3 second difference between car A and car B isn't going to amount to much in the real world. It all boils down to preference and what rocks you boat.

qbrozen

i'm missing it. What exactly do you have against the american nameplates? If reliability doesn't concern you, then what is it? You said even if they made the most powerful, best handling car, you'd still not buy it. Why?

jrock65

I gotta go test drive a CTS-V and see what the hoopla is about. The main reason I didn't was because of questions of reliability, exterior styling, and interior styling.

Well, it's a first generation product and at least Caddy put it out there. Hope Lexus and Infiniti have the guts to do the same. Acura can't really make a serious performance version based on the TL if they keep making it FWD.

eaton53

"May 3, 2002 at Marvin K Brown Cadillac, I took a CTS for a test drive consisting of surface streets and freeways:"

Then you're the worst car reviewer in the world, because no professional reviewer agrees with you. Of course with statements like "seriously, they could offer a 600 hp engine in the best handling chassis ever and I will not own it", there is zero credibility there anyway.

eaton53

"How many average Joe car buyers get to use their cars on the track??."

People that buy the supersedans are not Joe car buyer. A lot of them do get raced.

eaton53

"I will agree with the person before that the CTS-V has no place in these discussions. It is a sports sedan with a little luxury thrown in and is priced a good deal over all the others discussed here."

Actually, the differnce could very well be just a few thousand dollars if you've got a bunch of GM card points.

"Most people are not cross shopping these cars."

If the diff is only a few bucks, why wouldn't you?

speedracer3

People that buy the supersedans are not Joe car buyer. A lot of them do get raced.

You are right, they are not Joe car buyer. They are Joe car buyer with a lot of money...but just because they have the money to spend does not make them track racers. Anyway, if I was serious about racing I wouldn't buy a luxury sedan anyway since, leather, nav systems, stereos, A/C units add weight to a car and would take away from the car's performance.

eaton53

You race cars in your class, whatever your class happens to be. Having the luxury items doesn't really matter.... seeing what it'll do without having to watch out for the cops does.

And, you get to learn that you're not really that good of a driver. ;-)

chrisboth

"I compared a 400hp car with a 270hp car. The performance differences should be major but THEY ARE NOT!!"

What part of the equation are you missing. The cars are not in any way going to perform similarly except for 0-30 maybe. once the V get rolling it will make the the extra 15k over the TL seem trivial. The fact you think a TL can even be compared to a pushrod v-8 also put in a vette does not say much for anything other than your undying devotion to the TL.

blueguydotcom

i'm missing it. What exactly do you have against the american nameplates? If reliability doesn't concern you, then what is it? You said even if they made the most powerful, best handling car, you'd still not buy it. Why?

I admit a severe distate for American styling, engineering, marketing and everything else associated with American cars. I'm biased and prefer foreign cars.

blueguydotcom

Then you're the worst car reviewer in the world, because no professional reviewer agrees with you. Of course with statements like "seriously, they could offer a 600 hp engine in the best handling chassis ever and I will not own it", there is zero credibility there anyway.

Golly, if a guy in a magazine - you know the organizations that sell advertising to the companies whose products they review - say it's so, then it must be. What ever happened to thinking and experiencing for yourself?

What some paid off hack has to say about a vehicle has no bearing on how I will react to the same vehicle.

Think for yourself...

eaton53

"I admit a severe distate for American styling, engineering, marketing and everything else associated with American cars. I'm biased and prefer foreign cars."

So why exactly should we believe anything you post about them?

eaton53

"Golly, if a guy in a magazine - you know the organizations that sell advertising to the companies whose products they review."

Considering the car companies all advertise in the mags and I've seen unflattering reviews of just about every make.... just where is the bias?

It must all be a big conspiracy!!