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Reliability, resale value, performance, features, gas consumption, luxury to me is considered as in quality.
I tried to make assumptions what if G35 or ES330 or 330i was the one on the top sales chart. I wonder what is the dominant factor? I was confused myself. :-). Do you have the answer?
Intensive marketing/advertising programs, patriotism (doesnt apply to these cars except GM, ford), fanaticism, better incentives, popularity, different market segment. I dont see any of those apply to these cars. What do you think Iwantonetoo? What is it that makes people buy the car? luck is not a smart answer.
About torque steer, I choose a car based on my purposes only.
How many time you plant your foot to the pedal when taking a corner? TL's cornering is not the best but one of the best IMO.
How many time you speed your car when driving in a highway? Many times lol
How much time do you spend inside your car?
How many time do you risk your car in a race track?
Do you care about resale value or not?
Do you care about gas consumption or not?
I can answer every question with one thing: toy. That's what my BMW is to me. It's not transportation, an investment or practical. It's a toy.
Do you care about your family or not? (are you selfish?) etc.
What does this have to do with buying a car?
Fyi its not 5k people who dug TL lastweek but 6+k people.
I respect your opinion as you refer your car as a toy. I think you must be very rich but not me. I am not rich and I earn my living by working hard.
The reason is because product A was worth their dollars, hmmm thats a good one. It doesnt mean good or bad, agreed.:-)
In any case, I for one am glad that the TL is FWD. I definitely feel that RWD is more fun to drive and that FWD has its limits, but some people want a sporty experience in a FWD setup (for foul weather purposes), and are not willing to pay the extra $2000 or so to get AWD, and its associated decrease in gas mileage.
It just makes more economical sense for Honda to make the TL FWD, since platform sharing with the Accord and the TSX helps keep costs down. They don't make a single RWD sedan yet. Even though Honda/Acura NA sells more cars than Nissan/Infiniti NA, Nissan is a significantly bigger company in Japan than Honda.
Sigh...all entry lux cars are toys. The class of vehicle is by definition a luxury item. We could all get by fine with a 1995 Accord. Yet we're blowing 30-35-40k on silly cars.
I'm not gonna get into some personal thing about working hard or not. Leave the personal stuff out of it.
Let me get this straight so I understand the conversation. The Acura TL is a toy, but the Honda V6 full-loaded for $7K less, is plebian basic run-of-the-mill appliance transportation. The TSX, which is the same price as the Honda is a toy. Okay, now I got it.
I'm not sure why it's important that one believes there is a line in the sand between basic run of the mill appliance transportation and toy, but I'm trying to understand the price at which toy becomes necessity. In my mind anything more than a Hyundia Excel is a toy. It's just a matter of degree.
Then the conversation becomes, which toy is the most expensive, fun to own, most reliable, etc. So while I agree with you blueguy, nobody *needs* a car like this. It's obvious that people *want* these types of cars.
But then again fun varies among each of us--what kind, how much, how often.......
Then there's "just-got-to-have-it" factor. My sister, who drives at or under the speed limit and changes lane blocks or even miles before making a turn, just has to have the TL-S. She doesn't drive on the beltways and interstates (and I mean absolutely never) and never ventures into an unfamiliar area (not without me as the driver), but she wanted that navigation system.
And I guess it's epidemic because now I just got to have a 330i :-)
At least now I can't get enough.
According to the MID the car and I were together for 10 hours on the first tank of gas. Such is life here in DC when the Avg mph is in the low 20s in 60% 'highway' driving.
If that's true, forget the A-Spec... it's not even close.
Guess I'd better proofread before I post!
I have no delusions about my cars. They're not need based items. They don't approach food or shelter on the scale of things one must have to survive. I know very well that I can get by fine on an old Nissan sedan as I did through college and many, many years after it.
And 40k for a TL is outrageous. The A-spec package should be at most 3k over a standard TL.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
With it you get:
M3 front end/aero package, 18 inch wheels/rims, different suspension, short-shift 6 speed, new cams, new headers, new ECU, new exhaust, new differential/gearing, alcantara interior trim, anthracite headliner, new steering wheel, new tach, power memory seats, tilt down mirror, aluminum cube trim.
4k. There's no reason an A-spec TL should be 10k more.
With it you get:
M3 front end/aero package, 18 inch wheels/rims, different suspension, short-shift 6 speed, new cams, new headers, new ECU, new exhaust, new differential/gearing, alcantara interior trim, anthracite headliner, new steering wheel, new tach, power memory seats, tilt down mirror, aluminum cube trim.
4k. There's no reason an A-spec TL should be 10k more."
By the same reasoning, there is no reason why the 330i should cost $8000 more than a comparably equipped TL. An A-spec TL still costs less than a comparably equipped ZHP 330i.
What are the exact upgrades of the A-spec on the TL...
What the BMW costs is not relevant either. We're talking about a 32k car with X options. Tell us what those options are.
My point is that if you're going to compare it in that way, i.e. compare it feature for feature, the 330i is overpriced. It may not be relevant to you, but it is relevant to me and others.
Frankly, I agree with you, I also think the A-spec package is overpriced. I'm not really interested in it, but I'm sure that there is some site on the internet that lists what you get with the A-spec package.
It is overpriced. With standard options of TL is more than enough. MSRP of TL $33,2k w/o Navi. or $35,3k with Navi.
You decided to bring the BMW ZHP package into the equation by comparing the relative value of the A-spec package vs. the ZHP package. Basically your point is that the A-spec is overpriced.
No, I was not comparing the values of the two. I merely pointed out to riez that a major manufacturer can cheaply add many, many elements to a performance package at a price that isn't a 33% jump over the base.
My point is that if you're going to compare it in that way, i.e. compare it feature for feature, the 330i is overpriced. It may not be relevant to you, but it is relevant to me and others.
I was talking about what's added equipment wise. X base, what's added to it to get to Z total. The TL stickers for like 32-33k. Loaded. Whatever they're adding, from what i've seen it's an aero kit, some suspension/tire mods and a tweaked exhaust it's not nearly worth 10k. We're talking parts...not the value of the car. Even if the TL stickered at 25k as is and the a-spec raised the price to 35k I'd be annoyed as the parts could be added aftermarket for that price.
And value is subjective. At 25k I probably would have bought a TL. 33k? Nope. That's why they make different cars - because not everybody wants to drive one type of vehicle.
I myself will not buy an overpriced A-spec, and I think majority of people will not buy an overpriced item. Will you buy an overpriced item?
To somebody out there, the A-spec may be worth 40k. Hard to imagine but it's possible. Just as it's hard for some to imagine blowing 40k on a 3 Series. To each his own.
In the end shouldn't we buy that vehicle we feel most comfortable driving?
I was NOT saying about a car or 330i as an overpriced item. Unless you feel it that way of course. And again A-spec is not worth my dollars and you seemed to agree to it too.
I like Jrock's objective opinions eventho sometimes we disagree.
If it is about a car then actually for 4 months I had been researching and comparing 330i, gs300, es330, G35 and 325i (No acura in my top list) before I even knew about TL.
Choosing car is a complicated issue, you cant compare one's driving experience with the other. You cant value TL for just $25k bcuz 6k people/month would disagree while maybe only 467 people would agree to it.
You like the car the way you like it, why we should care about others.
After market gadget is different than the original. You can install them but you might destroy the car's harmony. That is just my opinion.
I like 330i too. peace :-)
Aight, my bad if that was your point.
I've learned a great deal from these forums and threads like these, and all the regulars that post here, even though we've had our share of disagreements. It rarely gets too personal here, and I've seen many threads at other forums basically deteriorate into name calling. Part of it is the "hard-line" police work of the moderators.
When I was a teenager, I used to think that only Lexus made nice cars, and everything else was junk. I've evolved somewhat since then.
But at $42K it's getting within a few grand of the CTS-V, a car that stomps a mud hole in it (and the 330i, for that matter).
I see that motortrend has reported testing the A-spec and they support the $5200+install number. According to them, you get the following:
an aero kit that incorporates a front air dam, small chin spoiler, body side skirts, and a choice of two different rear spoilers--a small trunklid spoiler or a larger (yet still tasteful) rear wing. The aero kit was wind-tunnel tested and produces more downforce while generating a slightly improved overall Cd.
A-SPEC badging flanks the body panels, and the TL's well-trimmed interior is left alone save for a recontoured, slightly thicker racing-style steering wheel.
more aggressive suspension tuning
Most visible are the 18x8.5-inch alloy wheels and grippy 235/40VR18 Yokohama AVS ES100 tires.
The rest of the underpinning mods include a track-tuned shock and coil-spring combo that lowers ride height by one inch. Special attention was paid to spring rate and shock valving to ensure sportier handling without the tradeoff of a harsh on-highway ride.
and some more tidbits from their article:
In A-SPEC form, both torque steer and understeer are dramatically reduced--we even experienced an occasional hint of oversteer on aggressive corner turn-in. Braking performance from the factory-installed Brembo four-piston disc brakes improves, too, thanks to reduced nosedive during hard stops and the stickier rubber.
The A-SPEC package was not only developed under Acura's umbrella, but the added cost ($5200 plus installation) can be rolled directly into the purchase or lease price. Finally, the factory warranty remains unviolated.
and the numbers? Stock vs. A-spec
Braking, 60-0, ft 141 119
Slalom, mph 62.5 66.1
Skidpad, g 0.77 0.83
now, question, does anyone have published numbers for a non-ZHP 330 vs. a ZHP 330 and the total price difference? Now, we're not talking the Peformance Pack, right? No engine mods. Unless the engine mods and suspension mods come in around $6K. Do they? No more time for me to search today, so maybe someone can do that for me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can see how it could be done... GM card, various other certificates that are available, if you can find a dealer that will accept them. Looks like the guy that paid $45K may have done just that.
I also don't think Autoweek makes up MSRP's. The A-Spec is overpriced at the price point where Autoweek tested it.
$3900...that's the price difference. BMW claimed the ZHP dropped the zero to 60 numbers to 5.9 (tests by mags get it lower) v. the official 6.5 of the 330i (check bmwusa.com for that). I'll have to do some digging for the numbers. I know the slalom numbers were different too.
That is a pipe dream... you'd better find another 100 or so hp for a G to run with any of the really serious factory sports sedans.
of course, you need those engine mods just to compete in straight lines with the stock TL. But do those necessarily come with the improved suspension? Or can you get the suspension upgrades without the engine mods?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thanks.
Everything I listed from exterior/interior mods to engine modifications to suspension changes all come with a ZHP package.
But do those necessarily come with the improved suspension? Or can you get the suspension upgrades without the engine mods?
It's all one package. The only optional items from the package are the trunk lip spoiler and getting leather over that stupid Alcantara garbage.
If the 350Z and the G are essentially the same except body panels - why wouldn't one be "allowed" to upgrade thier G with those nismos components? Just because the Infiniti dealer wont be offering them doesn't mean they aren't available! IN fact most of my work and parts supply come from Nissan anyway.
If there's one thing the G has got it's Z and G enthusiasts galore and many many aftermarket suppliers of performance parts and it stems from the 350Z guys who are nuts about performance. Nismo is only offering what is available elsewhere from other sometimes better suppliers.
considering all that, seems like the Performance Package is a bargain when considered by itself and compared against other similar upgrades (the JCW Mini comes to mind).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Guess that is why I bought an IS300 manual. Could get a reliable fun car for about $30,000. And it had HID and LSD.
Heck, I'd rather have a $30,000 325i Sport 5-speed manual than a $40,000 330i ZHP. Then I'd use the $10,000 to buy myself a muscle car (say AMC AMX or Javelin)?
If you are really into performance, go with the two seater. its better than buying performance package which doesnt perform (0-60 5.9), the A-spec which is mainly only stability & body makeup. Sedan always have the luxury part, with too much performance, nobody cant even see it, its too fast.:-)
Guess it's all a matter of priorities. I know for a fact I could get the engine, interior/exterior, suspension and tire mods for 4k. It's impossible. Just the differential swap would be a hassle. New cams, headers, ecu and exhaust?!
Heck, I'd rather have a $30,000 325i Sport 5-speed manual than a $40,000 330i ZHP.
Different worlds. That's like comparing a CTS to a CTS-V or a mustang V6 to an SVT. Yes, it's a two second difference and the entire character of the car is different.
Either way would love to have the package but the cost is pretty high